The CR of the Elder Titan? [Archive] - Wizards Community

The CR of the Elder Titan? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Neratos
03-31-07, 05:33 PM Our DM recently used a slightly modified elder titan. He adjusted the ranks of its skills so that it had 70 ranks in the knowledges. Effectively doubling its epic spells per day, giving it 12 epic spells per day. On top of this he made custom epic spells. The creature says CR 30, but with these adjustments what do you think its CR should have been? Thanks in advance
runestar
03-31-07, 09:55 PM It should have only 7 epic spells/day.
I suppose it should be okay, so long as the epic spells are typical for what a lv30 spellcaster should have. I think its cr already takes into account the possibility of it using epic spells against the party, though I am not sure just what kind of magnitude they were expecting.

Maybe just play it as a c30 first, then grant ad-hoc xp depending on how tough the fight actually turns out.
rob_douglas
03-31-07, 11:44 PM I think his DM misinterpretted the line about spellcasting and gave 29th level casting in both Cleric AND Wizard. It is supposed to be one or the other, just as the 3.0 and 2E Titan's had one or the other. 3.5E dropped the spellcasting, but 1E did have both cleric and wizard casting. Since he gave both, then also gave 70 ranks in the knowledge skills, he ended up with 14 epic spells, which is yeah - more than CR30. Not much more mind you, since he couldn't get through a 40th level character's SR with any spells. As it is, his version just has a lot more options he will never have time to use.

ROB
Taeldrin Laesrash
04-01-07, 10:21 AM With those changes, and based on what Rob Douglas said, I say maybe a +5 or 6 to the CR.
bluemage55
04-01-07, 02:11 PM Keep in mind that the Elder Titan's limited wealth will prevent it from making optimum use of all those epic spells.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
04-01-07, 02:24 PM How many Hit Dice does an Epic Titan have? Because it'd need at least 67 HD to have 70 ranks, and I'm reasonably sure it has way less.
bluemage55
04-01-07, 02:27 PM It has 70.
Aluroon
04-01-07, 04:39 PM How many Hit Dice does an Epic Titan have? Because it'd need at least 67 HD to have 70 ranks, and I'm reasonably sure it has way less.

So
Difficult
To
Look
For
Your
Self.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm

In any case, assuming the DM used its standard wealth to pay for its epic spells I'd tend to say its CR went down. Limited wealth means few items granting bonus's and resistances, and with 30th level treasure for a monster it didn't have that much to start with. Its main threat was and still is melee with a high power attack, using its spells to get it out of forcecages and such.

It does far more damage with a full attack using power attack then it does with any of its spells.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
04-01-07, 05:39 PM So
Difficult
To
Look
For
Your
Self.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm

d20SRD was down when I made the post. So yeah, I'd say it was pretty bloody difficult.
Balthanon
04-01-07, 06:13 PM In any case, assuming the DM used its standard wealth to pay for its epic spells I'd tend to say its CR went down. Limited wealth means few items granting bonus's and resistances, and with 30th level treasure for a monster it didn't have that much to start with. Its main threat was and still is melee with a high power attack, using its spells to get it out of forcecages and such.

It doesn't need to spend its wealth actually-- the description says that it has the means to have three epic spells known. Those epic spells just need to be ones that are useful multiple times in an encounter and enhancing its skills to grant it additional epic spells per day will make the encounter more difficult. I don't know that it will increase that much, however, given that it already has at least 5 slots available-- unless epic fights typically take much longer than pre-epic, it probably isn't going to get through all of those even (assuming it isn't just casting them every round).
Neratos
04-01-07, 06:57 PM Well, from the fight we had with it, it took a total of 30 rounds and 3/4s the lives of the party. We are all lvl 25 fyi. His epic spells was one that eminated 60 feet from him doing 30d6 cold dmg every round. His second was one that boosted his stats, hard to remember but i know he had +20 to str and con. And his last one was the one that gave us trouble, a spell that completely healed him of dmg and all negative effects spells/drain/ect. This coupled with the fact we where in a relatively small enclosed space with him allowed him to melee us. I died the first round >.< Sucks when he goes first and power attacks for 70 hahahaha
Aluroon
04-01-07, 08:11 PM Well, from the fight we had with it, it took a total of 30 rounds and 3/4s the lives of the party. We are all lvl 25 fyi. His epic spells was one that eminated 60 feet from him doing 30d6 cold dmg every round. His second was one that boosted his stats, hard to remember but i know he had +20 to str and con. And his last one was the one that gave us trouble, a spell that completely healed him of dmg and all negative effects spells/drain/ect. This coupled with the fact we where in a relatively small enclosed space with him allowed him to melee us. I died the first round >.< Sucks when he goes first and power attacks for 70 hahahaha

We ran a number crunch over on Dicefreaks a while back, well, technically not over on dicefreaks, but it was done by dicefreaks people for dicefreaks. I don't have the results in front of me at the moment, but as I recall we came up with numbers at 30th level that suggested PC's of that level should have an AC in the 70's, minimum, with saves at +50 or better, a minimum of 350 hit points, some form of damage reduction, along with at least a few contingencies, and as many immunities as you can pack on.

Generally speaking you can slap on +50 ac for about 800,000gp, and +30 saves for about 400,000.

Strictly speaking two of those spells shouldn't have poised a problem (open combat with disjunction), but assuming you were the Arcane Caster I can understand it.

Revify is a level 4 spell that restores you to life as a standard action with no level lose, your cleric might consider packing it.

I'd also suggest Astral Projection as a means of avoiding TPK's.

Also note, strictly speaking when fighting something a minimum of 5 CR over you running is advisable.
Neratos
04-01-07, 09:48 PM As pathetic as it is, i was the ogre warhulk hahaha. But then again, i had 0 gear, since in the last fight i got disjunctioned to hell and back. We couldn't avoid the fight unfortunately. Thanks for the tips though.
Roivas
04-02-07, 02:48 AM Fighting a creature without equipment that is five CRs above you and you [and possibly other meembers of the party] have LA. Your GM is trying to kill you all. If you walk into any epic battle without equipment you are going to die unless the creature is 6 to 10 levels under you [unless you are a caster].
That Titan should've killed the entire party in a few rounds why would it need to bring epic spells into the situation?
CelestialBarbarian
04-02-07, 03:04 AM d20SRD was down when I made the post. So yeah, I'd say it was pretty bloody difficult.

Do you mean that you don't own a copy of the Epic Level Handbook?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
04-04-07, 06:47 PM Do you mean that you don't own a copy of the Epic Level Handbook?

It's currently at the bottom of a five foot tall pile of books.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neratos 03-31-07, 05:33 PM	Our DM recently used a slightly modified elder titan. He adjusted the ranks of its skills so that it had 70 ranks in the knowledges. Effectively doubling its epic spells per day, giving it 12 epic spells per day. On top of this he made custom epic spells. The creature says CR 30, but with these adjustments what do you think its CR should have been? Thanks in advance
runestar 03-31-07, 09:55 PM	It should have only 7 epic spells/day. I suppose it should be okay, so long as the epic spells are typical for what a lv30 spellcaster should have. I think its cr already takes into account the possibility of it using epic spells against the party, though I am not sure just what kind of magnitude they were expecting. Maybe just play it as a c30 first, then grant ad-hoc xp depending on how tough the fight actually turns out.
rob_douglas 03-31-07, 11:44 PM	I think his DM misinterpretted the line about spellcasting and gave 29th level casting in both Cleric AND Wizard. It is supposed to be one or the other, just as the 3.0 and 2E Titan's had one or the other. 3.5E dropped the spellcasting, but 1E did have both cleric and wizard casting. Since he gave both, then also gave 70 ranks in the knowledge skills, he ended up with 14 epic spells, which is yeah - more than CR30. Not much more mind you, since he couldn't get through a 40th level character's SR with any spells. As it is, his version just has a lot more options he will never have time to use. ROB
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-01-07, 10:21 AM	With those changes, and based on what Rob Douglas said, I say maybe a +5 or 6 to the CR.
bluemage55 04-01-07, 02:11 PM	Keep in mind that the Elder Titan's limited wealth will prevent it from making optimum use of all those epic spells.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-01-07, 02:24 PM	How many Hit Dice does an Epic Titan have? Because it'd need at least 67 HD to have 70 ranks, and I'm reasonably sure it has way less.
bluemage55 04-01-07, 02:27 PM	It has 70.
Aluroon 04-01-07, 04:39 PM	How many Hit Dice does an Epic Titan have? Because it'd need at least 67 HD to have 70 ranks, and I'm reasonably sure it has way less. So Difficult To Look For Your Self. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm In any case, assuming the DM used its standard wealth to pay for its epic spells I'd tend to say its CR went down. Limited wealth means few items granting bonus's and resistances, and with 30th level treasure for a monster it didn't have that much to start with. Its main threat was and still is melee with a high power attack, using its spells to get it out of forcecages and such. It does far more damage with a full attack using power attack then it does with any of its spells.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-01-07, 05:39 PM	So Difficult To Look For Your Self. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm d20SRD was down when I made the post. So yeah, I'd say it was pretty bloody difficult.
Balthanon 04-01-07, 06:13 PM	In any case, assuming the DM used its standard wealth to pay for its epic spells I'd tend to say its CR went down. Limited wealth means few items granting bonus's and resistances, and with 30th level treasure for a monster it didn't have that much to start with. Its main threat was and still is melee with a high power attack, using its spells to get it out of forcecages and such. It doesn't need to spend its wealth actually-- the description says that it has the means to have three epic spells known. Those epic spells just need to be ones that are useful multiple times in an encounter and enhancing its skills to grant it additional epic spells per day will make the encounter more difficult. I don't know that it will increase that much, however, given that it already has at least 5 slots available-- unless epic fights typically take much longer than pre-epic, it probably isn't going to get through all of those even (assuming it isn't just casting them every round).
Neratos 04-01-07, 06:57 PM	Well, from the fight we had with it, it took a total of 30 rounds and 3/4s the lives of the party. We are all lvl 25 fyi. His epic spells was one that eminated 60 feet from him doing 30d6 cold dmg every round. His second was one that boosted his stats, hard to remember but i know he had +20 to str and con. And his last one was the one that gave us trouble, a spell that completely healed him of dmg and all negative effects spells/drain/ect. This coupled with the fact we where in a relatively small enclosed space with him allowed him to melee us. I died the first round >.< Sucks when he goes first and power attacks for 70 hahahaha
Aluroon 04-01-07, 08:11 PM	Well, from the fight we had with it, it took a total of 30 rounds and 3/4s the lives of the party. We are all lvl 25 fyi. His epic spells was one that eminated 60 feet from him doing 30d6 cold dmg every round. His second was one that boosted his stats, hard to remember but i know he had +20 to str and con. And his last one was the one that gave us trouble, a spell that completely healed him of dmg and all negative effects spells/drain/ect. This coupled with the fact we where in a relatively small enclosed space with him allowed him to melee us. I died the first round >.< Sucks when he goes first and power attacks for 70 hahahaha We ran a number crunch over on Dicefreaks a while back, well, technically not over on dicefreaks, but it was done by dicefreaks people for dicefreaks. I don't have the results in front of me at the moment, but as I recall we came up with numbers at 30th level that suggested PC's of that level should have an AC in the 70's, minimum, with saves at +50 or better, a minimum of 350 hit points, some form of damage reduction, along with at least a few contingencies, and as many immunities as you can pack on. Generally speaking you can slap on +50 ac for about 800,000gp, and +30 saves for about 400,000. Strictly speaking two of those spells shouldn't have poised a problem (open combat with disjunction), but assuming you were the Arcane Caster I can understand it. Revify is a level 4 spell that restores you to life as a standard action with no level lose, your cleric might consider packing it. I'd also suggest Astral Projection as a means of avoiding TPK's. Also note, strictly speaking when fighting something a minimum of 5 CR over you running is advisable.
Neratos 04-01-07, 09:48 PM	As pathetic as it is, i was the ogre warhulk hahaha. But then again, i had 0 gear, since in the last fight i got disjunctioned to hell and back. We couldn't avoid the fight unfortunately. Thanks for the tips though.
Roivas 04-02-07, 02:48 AM	Fighting a creature without equipment that is five CRs above you and you [and possibly other meembers of the party] have LA. Your GM is trying to kill you all. If you walk into any epic battle without equipment you are going to die unless the creature is 6 to 10 levels under you [unless you are a caster]. That Titan should've killed the entire party in a few rounds why would it need to bring epic spells into the situation?
CelestialBarbarian 04-02-07, 03:04 AM	d20SRD was down when I made the post. So yeah, I'd say it was pretty bloody difficult. Do you mean that you don't own a copy of the Epic Level Handbook?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-04-07, 06:47 PM	Do you mean that you don't own a copy of the Epic Level Handbook? It's currently at the bottom of a five foot tall pile of books.