The Immortals Handbook [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Immortals Handbook [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kihon
05-14-07, 04:08 PM Has anyone tried to integrate The Immortals Handbook concept into their Epic game? If so, how did it work - and how did you go about it? I have been playing with the idea of having one of my groups epic characters find a way to start down the ascension path - but I was wondering if anyone had done this and how it worked out? A very epic group, with a very noobiee ascension character would be on a near par level, but anyways - looking for input - thank you.
Phantom Llama
05-14-07, 04:53 PM If you haven't already, you'll want to have a look at this (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=180811) topic and it's associated forum. Note that the session described was using an earlier revision of the rules and prior to the addition of portfolios.
Witch
05-14-07, 04:55 PM Immortals Handbook: the only book that can establish a CR on Pun-Pun!
Phantom Llama
05-14-07, 05:22 PM 24282, I believe. Although that's an overestimate since he's poorly optimised for his ECL. Not a patch on LOGOS.
Kihon
05-14-07, 07:47 PM Interesting read. I don't think that's using the exact rules from the Immortal's Handbook though. An earlier edition? In any event, back to the first question - has anyone used the IH in conjunction with the Epic rules? If so, what happen (in general)? Thanks.
Frobojoe
05-14-07, 10:21 PM 24282, I believe. Although that's an overestimate since he's poorly optimised for his ECL. Not a patch on LOGOS.

I love any book that allows me to call Pun Pun poorly optimized.
Upper_Krust
05-15-07, 07:53 AM Hello there Kihon! :)

Interesting read. I don't think that's using the exact rules from the Immortal's Handbook though. An earlier edition?

There have been a number of changes made based on the feedback from playtesting the beta version of Ascension.
the.real.elwood
05-17-07, 02:37 AM So any idea when Ascension will actually be done? Because, if I'm keeping track right, it's getting to be about a year late. I'm interested in it, and the Immortals Handbook Bestiary was really cool, but its hard to do anything with a product when it doesn't get released.
Upper_Krust
05-17-07, 06:58 AM Hi the.real.elwood! :)

So any idea when Ascension will actually be done?

In June. The text is 99.9% complete and I am making progress with the art.

Because, if I'm keeping track right, it's getting to be about a year late.

Yes, its taken far longer than I anticipated. :embarrass

I'm interested in it, and the Immortals Handbook Bestiary was really cool, but its hard to do anything with a product when it doesn't get released.

I appreciate the support. I'll try and get things realesed faster in the future.
Gemstone
05-18-07, 06:16 AM I love any book that allows me to call Pun Pun poorly optimized.
I must ask how that is possible, since the very idea with pun-pun is that once it hits 5th level, or whatever it is, it has infinitive ability scores, attack rolls etc.
Witch
05-18-07, 06:20 AM I must ask how that is possible, since the very idea with pun-pun is that once it hits 5th level, or whatever it is, it has infinitive ability scores, attack rolls etc.
Okay. Here you go. Original post at http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=180181.
Just for fun, I thought I'd calculate Pun Pun's CR according to Ascension.

OMNIFIC ABILITIES
Arbitrary [Ability Score] x6
Indissoluble
Omniparity

TRANSCENDANT ABILITIES
Transilient [Saving Throw] x3
Transversal
Superluminal

COSMIC ABILITIES
Cosmic Consciousness

DIVINE ABILITIES
Alter Reality
Maven
Omnicompetent

11502 feat slots needed
thus, 34506 HD

36423 ECL (+1 LA for each divine ability)
24282 CR

He hardly looks broken at all when you put it like this, y'know? I mean, he doesn't even have Learned Opponent Immunity! Heck, even the CharOp people know he doesn't have Transtemporal, or even Slipstream for that matter... and he completely lacks even Cosmic String! Heck... he doesn't even actually have infinite constitution or HD, just arbitrarily high. Yeah, he's got actually infinite saves, but who cares? Ouroborus, a mere ECL 408 being could easily take Pun Pun out what with transtemporal allowing Pun Pun to take NO ACTIONS while Ouroborus gets as many actions as he wants... Obviously, Pun Pun is a very suboptimal build for his ECL. Tsk tsk.

As a side note, by v5 of the Challenge Rating PDF, the Hulking Hurler would be roughly CR 392 billion due to damage capacity. This CR obviously would not apply versus any deity, and almost anything can kill the Hurler if initiative is won anyway.
NoldorForce
05-18-07, 12:04 PM Such is predicated on the notion that Pun-Pun doesn't have access to the book for more abilities to swipe.

Plus, Pun-Pun now does have infinite ability scores, HD, and caster level. And that funny Aleax thing.
Witch
05-18-07, 12:08 PM Pun-Pun can't grab more abilities from the book, as far as I know. His ability-grabbing power is limited to Supernatural, Spell-Like and Extraordinary abilities. These things are Omnific, Transcendent, Divine and Cosmic. Also, proxy methods are different, so Pun-Pun doesn't even have divine ranks if we go by IHB methods.

That said, I've always found his method of gaining Divine Ranks dubious, and I think there's a flaw in that aspect.
Phantom Llama
05-18-07, 12:28 PM These things are Omnific, Transcendent, Divine and Cosmic.

And also (Ex) and (Su), depending on the power in question. NoldorForce is correct that it stops working if he is allowed to pinch abilities from the IH itself.
Witch
05-18-07, 12:30 PM I disapprove :( Ah well, we all know that Pun-Pun is made by rigorous interpretation of words rather than intent, in any case.
Buugipopuu
05-18-07, 12:33 PM However, since they'd be Esoteric Abilities for him, he'd need DM approval before getting them, and you can't CharOp your way around DM approval only abilities.
Gemstone
05-18-07, 01:00 PM I disapprove :( Ah well, we all know that Pun-Pun is made by rigorous interpretation of words rather than intent, in any case.
Ah yes, that I know :) On the other hand, I must say I disagree. Pun-Pun has, once he gets going, the ability to attain unlimited ability scores. If you allow him to also get divinity by the means that are presented on the Char-Op board, which won't work given a sane DM, then I guess he can be beaten by such critters as that :) But also, if Pun-Pun is allowed to use that book, I can bet there will be some way they can break it too.

But still, Pun-Pun is just a serious screwing of the rules.
bluemage55
05-18-07, 05:10 PM Any sane DM wouldn't just stop at disallowing divinity, but wouldn't allow Pun-Pun at all.

All it takes to the fix the Pun-Pun problem is to ignore the Manipulate Form ability of the Sarrukh (and assume that all their engineering of Scaled Ones resulted from Epic Spellcasting; after all, they did pen the Nether Scrolls so they must have at least a decent command of magic).
Witch
05-18-07, 05:35 PM All it takes to the fix the Pun-Pun problem is to ignore the Manipulate Form ability of the Sarrukh
It takes more. It also takes the banning of Ice Assassin.
Gemstone
05-18-07, 06:08 PM It takes more. It also takes the banning of Ice Assassin.
Hmm? Explain how, because I haven't really seen this one in use by Pun-Pun :)
Witch
05-18-07, 06:10 PM Hmm? Explain how, because I haven't really seen this one in use by Pun-Pun :)
They give Ice Assassin as a SLA to Pun-Pun in order to remove its material components.

This can also be done with Eschew Materials.

Now, without material components required, you can have Pun-Pun create an Ice Assassin of anyone. Even a DvR 20 deity, who serves you without question. This starts the squirrel trick (leading to infinite DvR), but also other abuse.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
05-18-07, 06:10 PM Hmm? Explain how, because I haven't really seen this one in use by Pun-Pun :)

If I recall correctly, it's how he attains Divine Ranks.
bluemage55
05-18-07, 09:27 PM Now, without material components required, you can have Pun-Pun create an Ice Assassin of anyone. Even a DvR 20 deity, who serves you without question. This starts the squirrel trick (leading to infinite DvR), but also other abuse.

This is actually a two-fold problem within itself.

First, if you lack a material component upon which a spell is based, you can't cast the spell, even if you have feats like Eschew Materials or Ignore Material Components; i.e., fabricate cast without material components fails rather than letting you create anything you feel like.

The second issue is how overpowered the spell is due to poor editing. Does anyone honestly think that you can just go around duplicating deities with a 9th-level spell?

There should be 2 restrictions on the spell:

1. A cap on maximum possible HD creature you can duplicate identical to the wording on the simulacrum spell.

2. Like almost every scenario in which it occurs, divinity is "special", and is tied directly to the soul of a deity. You don't get divine ranks or DvR 0 by duplicating a creature, or assuming the form of an abomination, or switching bodies with a quasi-deity.
Witch
05-19-07, 07:25 AM Perhaps we should start an actual non-epic errata thread for spells.

(By the way, I also find the proxy-method problematic.)
bluemage55
05-20-07, 05:27 AM Perhaps we should start an actual non-epic errata thread for spells.

(By the way, I also find the proxy-method problematic.)

I have a non-epic (but affects epic or becomes a problem at epic) errata section within my revisions, but it's deliberately designed to include the SRD only.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kihon 05-14-07, 04:08 PM	Has anyone tried to integrate The Immortals Handbook concept into their Epic game? If so, how did it work - and how did you go about it? I have been playing with the idea of having one of my groups epic characters find a way to start down the ascension path - but I was wondering if anyone had done this and how it worked out? A very epic group, with a very noobiee ascension character would be on a near par level, but anyways - looking for input - thank you.
Phantom Llama 05-14-07, 04:53 PM	If you haven't already, you'll want to have a look at this (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=180811) topic and it's associated forum. Note that the session described was using an earlier revision of the rules and prior to the addition of portfolios.
Witch 05-14-07, 04:55 PM	Immortals Handbook: the only book that can establish a CR on Pun-Pun!
Phantom Llama 05-14-07, 05:22 PM	24282, I believe. Although that's an overestimate since he's poorly optimised for his ECL. Not a patch on LOGOS.
Kihon 05-14-07, 07:47 PM	Interesting read. I don't think that's using the exact rules from the Immortal's Handbook though. An earlier edition? In any event, back to the first question - has anyone used the IH in conjunction with the Epic rules? If so, what happen (in general)? Thanks.
Frobojoe 05-14-07, 10:21 PM	24282, I believe. Although that's an overestimate since he's poorly optimised for his ECL. Not a patch on LOGOS. I love any book that allows me to call Pun Pun poorly optimized.
Upper_Krust 05-15-07, 07:53 AM	Hello there Kihon! :) Interesting read. I don't think that's using the exact rules from the Immortal's Handbook though. An earlier edition? There have been a number of changes made based on the feedback from playtesting the beta version of Ascension.
the.real.elwood 05-17-07, 02:37 AM	So any idea when Ascension will actually be done? Because, if I'm keeping track right, it's getting to be about a year late. I'm interested in it, and the Immortals Handbook Bestiary was really cool, but its hard to do anything with a product when it doesn't get released.
Upper_Krust 05-17-07, 06:58 AM	Hi the.real.elwood! :) So any idea when Ascension will actually be done? In June. The text is 99.9% complete and I am making progress with the art. Because, if I'm keeping track right, it's getting to be about a year late. Yes, its taken far longer than I anticipated. :embarrass I'm interested in it, and the Immortals Handbook Bestiary was really cool, but its hard to do anything with a product when it doesn't get released. I appreciate the support. I'll try and get things realesed faster in the future.
Gemstone 05-18-07, 06:16 AM	I love any book that allows me to call Pun Pun poorly optimized. I must ask how that is possible, since the very idea with pun-pun is that once it hits 5th level, or whatever it is, it has infinitive ability scores, attack rolls etc.
Witch 05-18-07, 06:20 AM	I must ask how that is possible, since the very idea with pun-pun is that once it hits 5th level, or whatever it is, it has infinitive ability scores, attack rolls etc. Okay. Here you go. Original post at http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=180181. Just for fun, I thought I'd calculate Pun Pun's CR according to Ascension. OMNIFIC ABILITIES Arbitrary [Ability Score] x6 Indissoluble Omniparity TRANSCENDANT ABILITIES Transilient [Saving Throw] x3 Transversal Superluminal COSMIC ABILITIES Cosmic Consciousness DIVINE ABILITIES Alter Reality Maven Omnicompetent 11502 feat slots needed thus, 34506 HD 36423 ECL (+1 LA for each divine ability) 24282 CR He hardly looks broken at all when you put it like this, y'know? I mean, he doesn't even have Learned Opponent Immunity! Heck, even the CharOp people know he doesn't have Transtemporal, or even Slipstream for that matter... and he completely lacks even Cosmic String! Heck... he doesn't even actually have infinite constitution or HD, just arbitrarily high. Yeah, he's got actually infinite saves, but who cares? Ouroborus, a mere ECL 408 being could easily take Pun Pun out what with transtemporal allowing Pun Pun to take NO ACTIONS while Ouroborus gets as many actions as he wants... Obviously, Pun Pun is a very suboptimal build for his ECL. Tsk tsk. As a side note, by v5 of the Challenge Rating PDF, the Hulking Hurler would be roughly CR 392 billion due to damage capacity. This CR obviously would not apply versus any deity, and almost anything can kill the Hurler if initiative is won anyway.
NoldorForce 05-18-07, 12:04 PM	Such is predicated on the notion that Pun-Pun doesn't have access to the book for more abilities to swipe. Plus, Pun-Pun now does have infinite ability scores, HD, and caster level. And that funny Aleax thing.
Witch 05-18-07, 12:08 PM	Pun-Pun can't grab more abilities from the book, as far as I know. His ability-grabbing power is limited to Supernatural, Spell-Like and Extraordinary abilities. These things are Omnific, Transcendent, Divine and Cosmic. Also, proxy methods are different, so Pun-Pun doesn't even have divine ranks if we go by IHB methods. That said, I've always found his method of gaining Divine Ranks dubious, and I think there's a flaw in that aspect.
Phantom Llama 05-18-07, 12:28 PM	These things are Omnific, Transcendent, Divine and Cosmic. And also (Ex) and (Su), depending on the power in question. NoldorForce is correct that it stops working if he is allowed to pinch abilities from the IH itself.
Witch 05-18-07, 12:30 PM	I disapprove :( Ah well, we all know that Pun-Pun is made by rigorous interpretation of words rather than intent, in any case.
Buugipopuu 05-18-07, 12:33 PM	However, since they'd be Esoteric Abilities for him, he'd need DM approval before getting them, and you can't CharOp your way around DM approval only abilities.
Gemstone 05-18-07, 01:00 PM	I disapprove :( Ah well, we all know that Pun-Pun is made by rigorous interpretation of words rather than intent, in any case. Ah yes, that I know :) On the other hand, I must say I disagree. Pun-Pun has, once he gets going, the ability to attain unlimited ability scores. If you allow him to also get divinity by the means that are presented on the Char-Op board, which won't work given a sane DM, then I guess he can be beaten by such critters as that :) But also, if Pun-Pun is allowed to use that book, I can bet there will be some way they can break it too. But still, Pun-Pun is just a serious screwing of the rules.
bluemage55 05-18-07, 05:10 PM	Any sane DM wouldn't just stop at disallowing divinity, but wouldn't allow Pun-Pun at all. All it takes to the fix the Pun-Pun problem is to ignore the Manipulate Form ability of the Sarrukh (and assume that all their engineering of Scaled Ones resulted from Epic Spellcasting; after all, they did pen the Nether Scrolls so they must have at least a decent command of magic).
Witch 05-18-07, 05:35 PM	All it takes to the fix the Pun-Pun problem is to ignore the Manipulate Form ability of the Sarrukh It takes more. It also takes the banning of Ice Assassin.
Gemstone 05-18-07, 06:08 PM	It takes more. It also takes the banning of Ice Assassin. Hmm? Explain how, because I haven't really seen this one in use by Pun-Pun :)
Witch 05-18-07, 06:10 PM	Hmm? Explain how, because I haven't really seen this one in use by Pun-Pun :) They give Ice Assassin as a SLA to Pun-Pun in order to remove its material components. This can also be done with Eschew Materials. Now, without material components required, you can have Pun-Pun create an Ice Assassin of anyone. Even a DvR 20 deity, who serves you without question. This starts the squirrel trick (leading to infinite DvR), but also other abuse.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 05-18-07, 06:10 PM	Hmm? Explain how, because I haven't really seen this one in use by Pun-Pun :) If I recall correctly, it's how he attains Divine Ranks.
bluemage55 05-18-07, 09:27 PM	Now, without material components required, you can have Pun-Pun create an Ice Assassin of anyone. Even a DvR 20 deity, who serves you without question. This starts the squirrel trick (leading to infinite DvR), but also other abuse. This is actually a two-fold problem within itself. First, if you lack a material component upon which a spell is based, you can't cast the spell, even if you have feats like Eschew Materials or Ignore Material Components; i.e., fabricate cast without material components fails rather than letting you create anything you feel like. The second issue is how overpowered the spell is due to poor editing. Does anyone honestly think that you can just go around duplicating deities with a 9th-level spell? There should be 2 restrictions on the spell: 1. A cap on maximum possible HD creature you can duplicate identical to the wording on the simulacrum spell. 2. Like almost every scenario in which it occurs, divinity is "special", and is tied directly to the soul of a deity. You don't get divine ranks or DvR 0 by duplicating a creature, or assuming the form of an abomination, or switching bodies with a quasi-deity.
Witch 05-19-07, 07:25 AM	Perhaps we should start an actual non-epic errata thread for spells. (By the way, I also find the proxy-method problematic.)
bluemage55 05-20-07, 05:27 AM	Perhaps we should start an actual non-epic errata thread for spells. (By the way, I also find the proxy-method problematic.) I have a non-epic (but affects epic or becomes a problem at epic) errata section within my revisions, but it's deliberately designed to include the SRD only.