The Worm That walks template [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Worm That walks template [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Throrine
05-14-07, 08:03 PM greetings. I'm running a 9th level gestult game. the players must have a minimum level adjustment of 3, and a maximum of 5. Reguardless of the level adjustment players will always have 9 levels to work with.

thus making on pcs cr 9+2+3-5=14 through 16

Anyway one of my players is looking at the epic level handbook. My first reaction is " your not epic you cant use anything in there "

Still reading however he found himself a +3 challeng rating
template called "Worm that Walks"

now this template is bada$$. plus 20 insight to ac. engulfing 100 point damage attack. Spell like abilities. Oozz type. Blindsight 300 ft.

The way for a non epic level character to acquire this template is listed on page 230 of the ELH.

One thing i am not sure about is the spell requirements. Limited wish is a required spell. now limited wish is a 7th level spell. The player in question cannot cast it. He opted to buy a scroll. I told him my decition is that those spells required need to be memorized as part of your uncast spells that go toward your percentile chance of succeding.

The text doesnt say it has to be cast by the being receaving the template nor does it say it needs to be memorized. So is it just for me to say that it needs to be in your memory? Please read it yourself and let me know what you think.

Now the Cr is only plus 3. And i cant find a level adjustment for the template but it sounds somewhere around plus 17. I really dont know what to tell him. I've never even run a epic level game. He even tryed to tell me its only a plus 3 level adjustment because the cr is only plus 3. Yeah 3 for epic i think.

I dont want to limit him for character creation. but his base race is a Fey'ri. So its not like he doesnt have a character concept. If anyone knows where i can find the LA for this template please let me know. If there is no La for this because its epic, then does that mean he cannot be it because he must be epic? or adleast 13-14th level caster to cast limited wish?

I'm more than likely going to say this is a template that cannot be aquired till 13-14th if the campign even goes that far. But i just wanted to hear some peoples thoughts on it.

Even then if he did go through the process of acquiring the template. he would be shoot to epic levels above the party leaving them behind or dead with the next encounter cr.
Taeldrin Laesrash
05-14-07, 08:13 PM Yeah, you're going to have to point out that CR doesn't equal LA, and that this, based on its abilities, has a very high LA (Which I'm not totally sure of). I'd actually allow the ritual's spells to be cast off of scrolls, since they're basically just almost-fnished scrolls. I would, though, put a minimum caster level on the template (Something high). Assert yourself if necessary.
fnord
05-14-07, 08:41 PM There is no way that Worm that Walks has a LA of less than 6; the ECLs in the ELH are way off.
Throrine
05-14-07, 09:55 PM well i'm thinking somewhere around 14th level. There is a

2k experience cost that will knock him to 13th. But i'm not sure how to handle a sudden jump in the effectvie party level. If i make aencounter challenging for him it'll kill the rest.

well thank you for the replys
Bernat
05-15-07, 04:05 AM For each prepared but uncast arcane spell the deceased had at the moment of death (or unused spell slots if a spontaneous caster), there’s a 1% chance that a worm that walks will slither from the grave soil in 1d4 days.
Is your player willing to take the risk? How many unprepared arcane slots does he have, 22?
Kord's Boon
05-15-07, 03:28 PM well i'm thinking somewhere around 14th level. There is a 2k experience cost that will knock him to 13th. But i'm not sure how to handle a sudden jump in the effectvie party level. If i make a encounter challenging for him it'll kill the rest.

well thank you for the replys

You may a have a few options here that could make both you and the players happy, and I commend you and being at least willing to work something out.

As has already been stated by fnord, the ECLs in the Epic Level Handbook are unreliable and not to be trusted. So let us assume that the template’s level adjustment is 6 just for purpose of this proposal

One option is to create a kind of special prestige class with 6 levels that allows the character to gain the abilities of the worm that walks over time rather then all at once. This would allow you to pace his advancement with the rest of the party, for instance if he takes the template at 12th level he becomes a 12th level wizards 1st “level” worm that walks, as the rest of the party advances to 13th level.

Possible progression (very rough):

1st - Type change to aberration, +3 insight bonus to AC, Blindsight 100ft
2nd - Spell like abilities: 1/day - animal messenger, giant vermin, summon swarm, Engulf (20 damage), +3 insight bonus to AC, Frightful Presence.
3rd- Blindsight 200 ft, Spell like abilities: 1/day – animal growth, insect plague, +3 insight bonus to AC, Engulf (40 damage).
4th- Spell Resistance, current and future HD change to d8, Engulf (60 damage), +3 insight bonus to AC.
5th- Blindsight 300 ft, Spell like abilities: 1/day – creeping doom, animal shapes, colossal vermin, Engulf (80 damage), +4 insight bonus to AC.
6th- Immunity to critical hits and flanking, Discorporate, Engulf (100 damage), +4 insight bonus to AC.

(Looking at this 6 is likely much to low)

Alternatively, you could tone down the template to make it more appropriate for mid level play. You could drop engulf, lower the insight bonus and blindsight, ect. This may be satisfactory to your player as he could just be after the flavor of the worm that walks and accept its powers somewhat diminished.
rob_douglas
05-16-07, 03:51 PM He certainly can't say "Oh yeah, in my past I did this". If he is trying to do it in the future, well, you could let him try, with the appropriate chance of death. Someone else has to cast the ritual - he will be the dead body being buried, no?

But others are correct that the LA is not right (it was +4 from the ELH, where it listed the ECL for the Worm that Walks as 27 - based off a 23rd level wizard). But the benefits are far beyond +4. There was a thread 2 months ago or so where it was compared to a lich and demilich. I think +8 might come out to be about right - not as bad as a demilich at +12, but better than a lich at +4.

ROB
Kihon
05-16-07, 04:06 PM Personally I think the +6 looks about right.

The Lich is +4, the Demi-Lich +12.... Closer to the Lich IMO.

-for what it's worth, since it will be a 'home' rule (at least at this point)...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Throrine 05-14-07, 08:03 PM	greetings. I'm running a 9th level gestult game. the players must have a minimum level adjustment of 3, and a maximum of 5. Reguardless of the level adjustment players will always have 9 levels to work with. thus making on pcs cr 9+2+3-5=14 through 16 Anyway one of my players is looking at the epic level handbook. My first reaction is " your not epic you cant use anything in there " Still reading however he found himself a +3 challeng rating template called "Worm that Walks" now this template is bada$$. plus 20 insight to ac. engulfing 100 point damage attack. Spell like abilities. Oozz type. Blindsight 300 ft. The way for a non epic level character to acquire this template is listed on page 230 of the ELH. One thing i am not sure about is the spell requirements. Limited wish is a required spell. now limited wish is a 7th level spell. The player in question cannot cast it. He opted to buy a scroll. I told him my decition is that those spells required need to be memorized as part of your uncast spells that go toward your percentile chance of succeding. The text doesnt say it has to be cast by the being receaving the template nor does it say it needs to be memorized. So is it just for me to say that it needs to be in your memory? Please read it yourself and let me know what you think. Now the Cr is only plus 3. And i cant find a level adjustment for the template but it sounds somewhere around plus 17. I really dont know what to tell him. I've never even run a epic level game. He even tryed to tell me its only a plus 3 level adjustment because the cr is only plus 3. Yeah 3 for epic i think. I dont want to limit him for character creation. but his base race is a Fey'ri. So its not like he doesnt have a character concept. If anyone knows where i can find the LA for this template please let me know. If there is no La for this because its epic, then does that mean he cannot be it because he must be epic? or adleast 13-14th level caster to cast limited wish? I'm more than likely going to say this is a template that cannot be aquired till 13-14th if the campign even goes that far. But i just wanted to hear some peoples thoughts on it. Even then if he did go through the process of acquiring the template. he would be shoot to epic levels above the party leaving them behind or dead with the next encounter cr.
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-14-07, 08:13 PM	Yeah, you're going to have to point out that CR doesn't equal LA, and that this, based on its abilities, has a very high LA (Which I'm not totally sure of). I'd actually allow the ritual's spells to be cast off of scrolls, since they're basically just almost-fnished scrolls. I would, though, put a minimum caster level on the template (Something high). Assert yourself if necessary.
fnord 05-14-07, 08:41 PM	There is no way that Worm that Walks has a LA of less than 6; the ECLs in the ELH are way off.
Throrine 05-14-07, 09:55 PM	well i'm thinking somewhere around 14th level. There is a 2k experience cost that will knock him to 13th. But i'm not sure how to handle a sudden jump in the effectvie party level. If i make aencounter challenging for him it'll kill the rest. well thank you for the replys
Bernat 05-15-07, 04:05 AM	For each prepared but uncast arcane spell the deceased had at the moment of death (or unused spell slots if a spontaneous caster), there’s a 1% chance that a worm that walks will slither from the grave soil in 1d4 days. Is your player willing to take the risk? How many unprepared arcane slots does he have, 22?
Kord's Boon 05-15-07, 03:28 PM	well i'm thinking somewhere around 14th level. There is a 2k experience cost that will knock him to 13th. But i'm not sure how to handle a sudden jump in the effectvie party level. If i make a encounter challenging for him it'll kill the rest. well thank you for the replys You may a have a few options here that could make both you and the players happy, and I commend you and being at least willing to work something out. As has already been stated by fnord, the ECLs in the Epic Level Handbook are unreliable and not to be trusted. So let us assume that the template’s level adjustment is 6 just for purpose of this proposal One option is to create a kind of special prestige class with 6 levels that allows the character to gain the abilities of the worm that walks over time rather then all at once. This would allow you to pace his advancement with the rest of the party, for instance if he takes the template at 12th level he becomes a 12th level wizards 1st “level” worm that walks, as the rest of the party advances to 13th level. Possible progression (very rough): 1st - Type change to aberration, +3 insight bonus to AC, Blindsight 100ft 2nd - Spell like abilities: 1/day - animal messenger, giant vermin, summon swarm, Engulf (20 damage), +3 insight bonus to AC, Frightful Presence. 3rd- Blindsight 200 ft, Spell like abilities: 1/day – animal growth, insect plague, +3 insight bonus to AC, Engulf (40 damage). 4th- Spell Resistance, current and future HD change to d8, Engulf (60 damage), +3 insight bonus to AC. 5th- Blindsight 300 ft, Spell like abilities: 1/day – creeping doom, animal shapes, colossal vermin, Engulf (80 damage), +4 insight bonus to AC. 6th- Immunity to critical hits and flanking, Discorporate, Engulf (100 damage), +4 insight bonus to AC. (Looking at this 6 is likely much to low) Alternatively, you could tone down the template to make it more appropriate for mid level play. You could drop engulf, lower the insight bonus and blindsight, ect. This may be satisfactory to your player as he could just be after the flavor of the worm that walks and accept its powers somewhat diminished.
rob_douglas 05-16-07, 03:51 PM	He certainly can't say "Oh yeah, in my past I did this". If he is trying to do it in the future, well, you could let him try, with the appropriate chance of death. Someone else has to cast the ritual - he will be the dead body being buried, no? But others are correct that the LA is not right (it was +4 from the ELH, where it listed the ECL for the Worm that Walks as 27 - based off a 23rd level wizard). But the benefits are far beyond +4. There was a thread 2 months ago or so where it was compared to a lich and demilich. I think +8 might come out to be about right - not as bad as a demilich at +12, but better than a lich at +4. ROB
Kihon 05-16-07, 04:06 PM	Personally I think the +6 looks about right. The Lich is +4, the Demi-Lich +12.... Closer to the Lich IMO. -for what it's worth, since it will be a 'home' rule (at least at this point)...