Tiamat & epic dodge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tiamat & epic dodge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lord-bear
04-16-08, 10:12 AM Ok, so the rules of epic dodge say that you can negate one attack made by the individual upon whom you declared your dodge, does this a) apply against a casters spells, fireball and whatnot and b) apply against a dragons breath weapon and more importantly, (for me anyway) does it apply against Tiamats?
Tshern
04-16-08, 11:23 AM A. No.
B. No.

Against Tiamat's natural attacks, yes.
lord-bear
04-16-08, 02:31 PM A. No.
B. No.

Against Tiamat's natural attacks, yes.

Curses, hardly worth it then...
Bauglir
04-16-08, 03:27 PM It WILL let you negate any touch attack spells, though. I'd say it COULD be worth it. I wouldn't say it's a waste of a feat, but it's probably not the greatest one ever. Being able to negate one attack roll per round is kinda nice. Like Tshern said, it only works on things that allow an attack roll, which is still not too bad a deal.
Tshern
04-16-08, 04:22 PM It WILL let you negate any touch attack spells, though. I'd say it COULD be worth it. I wouldn't say it's a waste of a feat, but it's probably not the greatest one ever. Being able to negate one attack roll per round is kinda nice. Like Tshern said, it only works on things that allow an attack roll, which is still not too bad a deal.
And, to put it bluntly, Epic dodge is not going to be the key element in your fight against Tiamat...
Bauglir
04-16-08, 07:46 PM Agreed. Go for making saves and getting Evasion first, or her Breath Weapons or high-level sorcerer casting (she gets that just like dragons do, right?) will just mow you down. And she has enough natural attacks that dodging one isn't going to help you enough.
lord-bear
04-17-08, 03:40 AM well, my dm let me trial a fight with her, and quite frankly if I can negate her breath weapon someway then I can win, that and negate her ac, but its not bad for a level 22, but the homebrewed enchantment softening, like brillient energy but removes natural ac, will be a big help.
why did I decide my characters epic quest was to solo tiamat again? :confused:
Tshern
04-17-08, 06:10 AM Have a look at Wraithstrike and Shivering touch.

What's your build?
lord-bear
04-17-08, 08:30 AM my build...
hmmm
lycanthrope (wolf) - level adjustment reduced
sorcerrer - 1
dragon shaman (platinum) - 1
dragon devotee - 5
half dragon varient - 4 but the level adjustment has been reduced
dragon disciple - 10
scout - 1

i also have amethyst dragon bloodline (yes its homebrew) and the epic bloodline flows into force dragon (again homebrew)

i have a metabolic fire graft for an extra 6 d8 force to my breath weapon (it currently stands at 30d8)

i have an artefact from doing the worlds largest dungeon that is a modular sword that has mass damage potnential.

it's funny cos i think we calculated me as being aproximately 183% dragon...
rob_douglas
04-17-08, 11:43 AM You didn't stack the Dragon Disciple and half-dragon ability score gains, did you? To be a Dragon Disciple, you have not not be a dragon (which a half-dragon is) and to take half-dragon, you can't already be a dragon, which DD gives you. In any case, they shouldn't stack because they are the same thing.

Of course you can do what you want, but then don't be surprised that you can solo Tiamat with those kinds of "creative uses".

Also, which Tiamat are you using? The God version from Deities and Demigods, or the monster version from Manual of the Planes, or a homebrew version? And where are her consorts - you know, the 1 of each type of evil dragon - ancient in age?

As for her breath weapon, Evasion is easy enough to get taking Rogue, or Ranger levels, or a Ring of Evasion - make it slotless for only double the cost. As long as you save, no damage. If you can get Improved Evasion, all the better. I think there is an Epic Ring that grants that - or is it just Boots or Swiftness?

ROB
Kihon
04-17-08, 02:15 PM While we are talking about Tiamat let us not forget that if you face her in her own domain she has control over it - careful you are not flattened. Also she WILL have many lesser devils around to aid her cause - she does reside on the first plane of Hell. Let us not forget that she will most likely call on aid (dukes of hell, arch-fiends, perhaps even one of the Lords of the Nine - if you start seriously challenging her), and yes she'll have at least one of each type of dragon with her - all great wyrms, probably advanced (see epic books). Plus lets be realistic here - you must add in a Hellfire Dragon or four, at least half a dozen 'half-dragon' casters, many physical damage specialist half-dragon barbarian types, and not the least of which is her dragon horde -- so many powerful magic items at her use (it is the Queen of all Dragonkind) - an artifact or three would not be unheard of. Did I mention that I have DM'd Tiamat against three seperate epic groups - and managed to take two of them completely - the last one I couldn't get -- time stop, morphic planes, quasi-deity powers, etc... Now they couldn't kill her either, but it was a draw until they finally left after about the third contingency of theirs went off.

She has been around since the begining of Dragon Kind, she is the Queen of all Evil Dragons, She is a True Power in her own right, She has immense resources, she has planned for the day when a group of these upstart mortals come knocking on her cave, and she has been around long enough to make alliances with other powers, devils, creatures that will destroy epic groups on their own. O Yes - she is a challenge (if DM'd correctly) - one that only another immediate Power should be able to handle (imo).
lord-bear
04-17-08, 04:34 PM ok, first of i am taking scout for the evasion (that + better hit dice then rogue) secondly, yes they do stack mainly because of the order i took them in, you don't become a proper half dragon by either class until the last level, so as long as i start both before i finish either i can get all the benefits of both thank you very much, as for all of her supporters thats what the rest of the party is for but the (5)head honcho is mine and i don't think she has been around since the dawn of dragons, her dad is the main god, at least in our pantheon he is, you had the dad who is like the over god of dragons or something, tiamat for the evils, bahumat for the goods and then there was the third who tiamat killed who was god of neutral dragons...never can remember his name...but yeah, the over dragon guy came first in our pantheon, also thats why our epic caster is developing a spell to drag her to a location where i can fight her on my terms.
really its going quite well thinking about it, i just need to negate that breath weapon, and as far as which one i fight it's whichever one my dm thinks is the hardest, hell he may just build one based roughly around all of them, he's annoying like that.
Kihon
04-17-08, 05:01 PM I'm not saying that her divine level is above your groups (but unless you are hanging out with the Powers - it is). And I'm not saying that you can teleport a God against their will (which you really can't). And I'm not saying that you can't hold her against her will even if you can get her outside her divine domain (of course she certainly has contingencies for this), and her own plane shift or gate ability will get her back to her home. I'm not saying that she'd summon help that you couldn't deal with. I'm just saying that if your DM wants to - he can screw you - because she's had thousands of years to prepare for someone trying to slay her... and no epic spell is going to rip a God from their home plane to another location unless they will it. Even if you could - at best you get a part of her essence - an avatar so to speak.

Ok perhaps your group could take an avatar of Tiamat's... but that just puts her on your backside for the rest of your lives... but that might be better then actually fighting her because that's an awfully high task (again - if the DM wants it to be, and if he uses her Godly abilities).

Also - don't let her fly because it's an aweful long drop when she casts Mage's Disjunction on you when you're a bit high in the air. In fact - be prepared to deal with MJD because I'm sure she'll be casting at you - probably during a maximized time stop, along with all the massive epic buff spells she's sure to cast on herself. Yes she is an epic caster - and she's more procient at it then your mortal casters will be.

Make sure you get a copy of the Dragonomicaon book - it gives a ton of feats for dragons - and I'm sure she'll have a few of those. It also gives dragon attacking ideas, for both sides - be familiar with it (more then your DM). She's so large that she's beyond the radius of an Anti-magic Shell spell - so she'll be casting from at least one (and I'd have 2-3) heads per round, plus her physical attacks, and at least one breath weapon (feat to mess with the type - perhaps acid, sonic, etc...) at you.

Now if you have access to high level epic items - make sure you get a ring of universal energy immunity (yes the most expensive ring in the epic book - but without it don't even try to fight her). Use your Epic Wizard to cast spells that are like Epic Dimensional Anchor and such - so she can't get those high level allies to help her. Of course no spell is going to stop the might of a God - so you might not be able to stop her from fleeing, but if you can stop her from summoning a Duke of Hell - who then calls his legions of pit fiends - and the blood wars millions under his command come to his call.... well that's something.

Also if you can find a way to distant her from the eons of dragon horde she has - because if she grabs a couple of dragon artifacts that screws the whole thing. Imagine if you will she grabs an artifact that stops all magic within - lets say a 2 mile radius. Can you hit her ac just on your level and str? No magical bonuses - hmmm. She might well rip your whole group apart without taking any damage ----- so beware that you are more in danger from anti-magic zones then she probably will be. Who knows what plane spanning artifacts she will have in her horde.

Surprise will be hard - since many dieties can see into the future - so if there is a way to make a plan, without ever really talking about it - or talking in code - since most dieties can hear whenever their name is used. Also - make sure you have some immunity to psionics --- I've used that weakness to destroy groups that forget about them. Doesn't every Dragon Queen keep at least one Paragon Mind Flayer on the payroll - just to deal with those nasty adventurers:)

If you fight her in her own realm, be prepared for the floor to drop away at any minute - just sort of disappearing - because she can fly that won't be an issue for her --- but it might be for you, when coupled with that huge Dispel Magic Zone she just hit you with. Ok there are a few ideas to be prepared to deal with. When you fight the powers all I can say is good luck. Maybe if your group is all 50th level and appropriatly outfitted... still - good luck.
lord-bear
04-18-08, 03:43 AM I'm not saying that her divine level is above your groups (but unless you are hanging out with the Powers - it is). And I'm not saying that you can teleport a God against their will (which you really can't). And I'm not saying that you can't hold her against her will even if you can get her outside her divine domain (of course she certainly has contingencies for this), and her own plane shift or gate ability will get her back to her home. I'm not saying that she'd summon help that you couldn't deal with. I'm just saying that if your DM wants to - he can screw you - because she's had thousands of years to prepare for someone trying to slay her... and no epic spell is going to rip a God from their home plane to another location unless they will it. Even if you could - at best you get a part of her essence - an avatar so to speak.

Ok perhaps your group could take an avatar of Tiamat's... but that just puts her on your backside for the rest of your lives... but that might be better then actually fighting her because that's an awfully high task (again - if the DM wants it to be, and if he uses her Godly abilities).

Also - don't let her fly because it's an aweful long drop when she casts Mage's Disjunction on you when you're a bit high in the air. In fact - be prepared to deal with MJD because I'm sure she'll be casting at you - probably during a maximized time stop, along with all the massive epic buff spells she's sure to cast on herself. Yes she is an epic caster - and she's more procient at it then your mortal casters will be.

Make sure you get a copy of the Dragonomicaon book - it gives a ton of feats for dragons - and I'm sure she'll have a few of those. It also gives dragon attacking ideas, for both sides - be familiar with it (more then your DM). She's so large that she's beyond the radius of an Anti-magic Shell spell - so she'll be casting from at least one (and I'd have 2-3) heads per round, plus her physical attacks, and at least one breath weapon (feat to mess with the type - perhaps acid, sonic, etc...) at you.

Now if you have access to high level epic items - make sure you get a ring of universal energy immunity (yes the most expensive ring in the epic book - but without it don't even try to fight her). Use your Epic Wizard to cast spells that are like Epic Dimensional Anchor and such - so she can't get those high level allies to help her. Of course no spell is going to stop the might of a God - so you might not be able to stop her from fleeing, but if you can stop her from summoning a Duke of Hell - who then calls his legions of pit fiends - and the blood wars millions under his command come to his call.... well that's something.

Also if you can find a way to distant her from the eons of dragon horde she has - because if she grabs a couple of dragon artifacts that screws the whole thing. Imagine if you will she grabs an artifact that stops all magic within - lets say a 2 mile radius. Can you hit her ac just on your level and str? No magical bonuses - hmmm. She might well rip your whole group apart without taking any damage ----- so beware that you are more in danger from anti-magic zones then she probably will be. Who knows what plane spanning artifacts she will have in her horde.

Surprise will be hard - since many dieties can see into the future - so if there is a way to make a plan, without ever really talking about it - or talking in code - since most dieties can hear whenever their name is used. Also - make sure you have some immunity to psionics --- I've used that weakness to destroy groups that forget about them. Doesn't every Dragon Queen keep at least one Paragon Mind Flayer on the payroll - just to deal with those nasty adventurers:)

If you fight her in her own realm, be prepared for the floor to drop away at any minute - just sort of disappearing - because she can fly that won't be an issue for her --- but it might be for you, when coupled with that huge Dispel Magic Zone she just hit you with. Ok there are a few ideas to be prepared to deal with. When you fight the powers all I can say is good luck. Maybe if your group is all 50th level and appropriatly outfitted... still - good luck.

while thats all duley noted i would just like to say that we have no intention of fighting her immediately, it is going to be the finally of this campeign, possibly happening on the day before 4th ed, and there will be some level acceleration, and while your right that there is no way to pull a god against their will, there is however a way to attempt and summon her, which she has no obligation to accept, but given that information, if i cast repeatedly then it'll be annoying, as for the floor thing each and every member of our party can fly, favoured souls, dragon shamans, races, dragon disciples, we all got wings. i never said it would be easy, also the mindflayers are off doing their whole world conquest thing in our setting, as for the planes thing, our setting has mass wars between the species of dragon, metalic vs. chromatic and most of the devils/demons have been imprisoned by the celestial beings. i'm still not saying it will be easy, but i think we may be able to do it, also we have our own deity, 0th raqnk at the moment but in 1 feat he goes to 2nd rank (gotta love the dm saying that you can use leadership and epic leadership to count as worshippers) etc etc... besides, even if she does hunt us for the rest of our lives for killing her avatar, isnt that what we want, to fight tiamat???? but like i said, its not iminant but i'm planning for the future.
rob_douglas
04-18-08, 05:03 PM yes they do stack mainly because of the order i took them in, you don't become a proper half dragon by either class until the last level, so as long as i start both before i finish either i can get all the benefits of both thank you very much

Sage Advice made it clear that if you no longer meet the prereqs of a prestige class, you don't get and actually lose all the benefits of the PrC, except for HD, hp, BAB and saves, and skills. See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080410a

So it is not in the letter of the rules to stack them. It is clearly not in the spirit of them. If you want to house rule it, fine, but don't be surprised that you come up a little overpowered from what you would expect otherwise.

ROB
lord-bear
04-18-08, 07:06 PM hmmm, while that may be true, explain epic dragon disciple, at level 10 of dragon disciple you gain the half dragon template thus you no longer have the requirements to be a dragon disciple, meaning you would loose the half dragon template...ach it loops, nope my dm ruled that you only have to have the recs to start taking a class and you could carry on taking it even if you later failed to fulfill the requirements, such as acquiring the half dragon template midway through dragon disciple, unless of course it is specifically stated otherwise such as the alignment thing of a paladin.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lord-bear 04-16-08, 10:12 AM	Ok, so the rules of epic dodge say that you can negate one attack made by the individual upon whom you declared your dodge, does this a) apply against a casters spells, fireball and whatnot and b) apply against a dragons breath weapon and more importantly, (for me anyway) does it apply against Tiamats?
Tshern 04-16-08, 11:23 AM	A. No. B. No. Against Tiamat's natural attacks, yes.
lord-bear 04-16-08, 02:31 PM	A. No. B. No. Against Tiamat's natural attacks, yes. Curses, hardly worth it then...
Bauglir 04-16-08, 03:27 PM	It WILL let you negate any touch attack spells, though. I'd say it COULD be worth it. I wouldn't say it's a waste of a feat, but it's probably not the greatest one ever. Being able to negate one attack roll per round is kinda nice. Like Tshern said, it only works on things that allow an attack roll, which is still not too bad a deal.
Tshern 04-16-08, 04:22 PM	It WILL let you negate any touch attack spells, though. I'd say it COULD be worth it. I wouldn't say it's a waste of a feat, but it's probably not the greatest one ever. Being able to negate one attack roll per round is kinda nice. Like Tshern said, it only works on things that allow an attack roll, which is still not too bad a deal. And, to put it bluntly, Epic dodge is not going to be the key element in your fight against Tiamat...
Bauglir 04-16-08, 07:46 PM	Agreed. Go for making saves and getting Evasion first, or her Breath Weapons or high-level sorcerer casting (she gets that just like dragons do, right?) will just mow you down. And she has enough natural attacks that dodging one isn't going to help you enough.
lord-bear 04-17-08, 03:40 AM	well, my dm let me trial a fight with her, and quite frankly if I can negate her breath weapon someway then I can win, that and negate her ac, but its not bad for a level 22, but the homebrewed enchantment softening, like brillient energy but removes natural ac, will be a big help. why did I decide my characters epic quest was to solo tiamat again? :confused:
Tshern 04-17-08, 06:10 AM	Have a look at Wraithstrike and Shivering touch. What's your build?
lord-bear 04-17-08, 08:30 AM	my build... hmmm lycanthrope (wolf) - level adjustment reduced sorcerrer - 1 dragon shaman (platinum) - 1 dragon devotee - 5 half dragon varient - 4 but the level adjustment has been reduced dragon disciple - 10 scout - 1 i also have amethyst dragon bloodline (yes its homebrew) and the epic bloodline flows into force dragon (again homebrew) i have a metabolic fire graft for an extra 6 d8 force to my breath weapon (it currently stands at 30d8) i have an artefact from doing the worlds largest dungeon that is a modular sword that has mass damage potnential. it's funny cos i think we calculated me as being aproximately 183% dragon...
rob_douglas 04-17-08, 11:43 AM	You didn't stack the Dragon Disciple and half-dragon ability score gains, did you? To be a Dragon Disciple, you have not not be a dragon (which a half-dragon is) and to take half-dragon, you can't already be a dragon, which DD gives you. In any case, they shouldn't stack because they are the same thing. Of course you can do what you want, but then don't be surprised that you can solo Tiamat with those kinds of "creative uses". Also, which Tiamat are you using? The God version from Deities and Demigods, or the monster version from Manual of the Planes, or a homebrew version? And where are her consorts - you know, the 1 of each type of evil dragon - ancient in age? As for her breath weapon, Evasion is easy enough to get taking Rogue, or Ranger levels, or a Ring of Evasion - make it slotless for only double the cost. As long as you save, no damage. If you can get Improved Evasion, all the better. I think there is an Epic Ring that grants that - or is it just Boots or Swiftness? ROB
Kihon 04-17-08, 02:15 PM	While we are talking about Tiamat let us not forget that if you face her in her own domain she has control over it - careful you are not flattened. Also she WILL have many lesser devils around to aid her cause - she does reside on the first plane of Hell. Let us not forget that she will most likely call on aid (dukes of hell, arch-fiends, perhaps even one of the Lords of the Nine - if you start seriously challenging her), and yes she'll have at least one of each type of dragon with her - all great wyrms, probably advanced (see epic books). Plus lets be realistic here - you must add in a Hellfire Dragon or four, at least half a dozen 'half-dragon' casters, many physical damage specialist half-dragon barbarian types, and not the least of which is her dragon horde -- so many powerful magic items at her use (it is the Queen of all Dragonkind) - an artifact or three would not be unheard of. Did I mention that I have DM'd Tiamat against three seperate epic groups - and managed to take two of them completely - the last one I couldn't get -- time stop, morphic planes, quasi-deity powers, etc... Now they couldn't kill her either, but it was a draw until they finally left after about the third contingency of theirs went off. She has been around since the begining of Dragon Kind, she is the Queen of all Evil Dragons, She is a True Power in her own right, She has immense resources, she has planned for the day when a group of these upstart mortals come knocking on her cave, and she has been around long enough to make alliances with other powers, devils, creatures that will destroy epic groups on their own. O Yes - she is a challenge (if DM'd correctly) - one that only another immediate Power should be able to handle (imo).
lord-bear 04-17-08, 04:34 PM	ok, first of i am taking scout for the evasion (that + better hit dice then rogue) secondly, yes they do stack mainly because of the order i took them in, you don't become a proper half dragon by either class until the last level, so as long as i start both before i finish either i can get all the benefits of both thank you very much, as for all of her supporters thats what the rest of the party is for but the (5)head honcho is mine and i don't think she has been around since the dawn of dragons, her dad is the main god, at least in our pantheon he is, you had the dad who is like the over god of dragons or something, tiamat for the evils, bahumat for the goods and then there was the third who tiamat killed who was god of neutral dragons...never can remember his name...but yeah, the over dragon guy came first in our pantheon, also thats why our epic caster is developing a spell to drag her to a location where i can fight her on my terms. really its going quite well thinking about it, i just need to negate that breath weapon, and as far as which one i fight it's whichever one my dm thinks is the hardest, hell he may just build one based roughly around all of them, he's annoying like that.
Kihon 04-17-08, 05:01 PM	I'm not saying that her divine level is above your groups (but unless you are hanging out with the Powers - it is). And I'm not saying that you can teleport a God against their will (which you really can't). And I'm not saying that you can't hold her against her will even if you can get her outside her divine domain (of course she certainly has contingencies for this), and her own plane shift or gate ability will get her back to her home. I'm not saying that she'd summon help that you couldn't deal with. I'm just saying that if your DM wants to - he can screw you - because she's had thousands of years to prepare for someone trying to slay her... and no epic spell is going to rip a God from their home plane to another location unless they will it. Even if you could - at best you get a part of her essence - an avatar so to speak. Ok perhaps your group could take an avatar of Tiamat's... but that just puts her on your backside for the rest of your lives... but that might be better then actually fighting her because that's an awfully high task (again - if the DM wants it to be, and if he uses her Godly abilities). Also - don't let her fly because it's an aweful long drop when she casts Mage's Disjunction on you when you're a bit high in the air. In fact - be prepared to deal with MJD because I'm sure she'll be casting at you - probably during a maximized time stop, along with all the massive epic buff spells she's sure to cast on herself. Yes she is an epic caster - and she's more procient at it then your mortal casters will be. Make sure you get a copy of the Dragonomicaon book - it gives a ton of feats for dragons - and I'm sure she'll have a few of those. It also gives dragon attacking ideas, for both sides - be familiar with it (more then your DM). She's so large that she's beyond the radius of an Anti-magic Shell spell - so she'll be casting from at least one (and I'd have 2-3) heads per round, plus her physical attacks, and at least one breath weapon (feat to mess with the type - perhaps acid, sonic, etc...) at you. Now if you have access to high level epic items - make sure you get a ring of universal energy immunity (yes the most expensive ring in the epic book - but without it don't even try to fight her). Use your Epic Wizard to cast spells that are like Epic Dimensional Anchor and such - so she can't get those high level allies to help her. Of course no spell is going to stop the might of a God - so you might not be able to stop her from fleeing, but if you can stop her from summoning a Duke of Hell - who then calls his legions of pit fiends - and the blood wars millions under his command come to his call.... well that's something. Also if you can find a way to distant her from the eons of dragon horde she has - because if she grabs a couple of dragon artifacts that screws the whole thing. Imagine if you will she grabs an artifact that stops all magic within - lets say a 2 mile radius. Can you hit her ac just on your level and str? No magical bonuses - hmmm. She might well rip your whole group apart without taking any damage ----- so beware that you are more in danger from anti-magic zones then she probably will be. Who knows what plane spanning artifacts she will have in her horde. Surprise will be hard - since many dieties can see into the future - so if there is a way to make a plan, without ever really talking about it - or talking in code - since most dieties can hear whenever their name is used. Also - make sure you have some immunity to psionics --- I've used that weakness to destroy groups that forget about them. Doesn't every Dragon Queen keep at least one Paragon Mind Flayer on the payroll - just to deal with those nasty adventurers:) If you fight her in her own realm, be prepared for the floor to drop away at any minute - just sort of disappearing - because she can fly that won't be an issue for her --- but it might be for you, when coupled with that huge Dispel Magic Zone she just hit you with. Ok there are a few ideas to be prepared to deal with. When you fight the powers all I can say is good luck. Maybe if your group is all 50th level and appropriatly outfitted... still - good luck.
lord-bear 04-18-08, 03:43 AM	I'm not saying that her divine level is above your groups (but unless you are hanging out with the Powers - it is). And I'm not saying that you can teleport a God against their will (which you really can't). And I'm not saying that you can't hold her against her will even if you can get her outside her divine domain (of course she certainly has contingencies for this), and her own plane shift or gate ability will get her back to her home. I'm not saying that she'd summon help that you couldn't deal with. I'm just saying that if your DM wants to - he can screw you - because she's had thousands of years to prepare for someone trying to slay her... and no epic spell is going to rip a God from their home plane to another location unless they will it. Even if you could - at best you get a part of her essence - an avatar so to speak. Ok perhaps your group could take an avatar of Tiamat's... but that just puts her on your backside for the rest of your lives... but that might be better then actually fighting her because that's an awfully high task (again - if the DM wants it to be, and if he uses her Godly abilities). Also - don't let her fly because it's an aweful long drop when she casts Mage's Disjunction on you when you're a bit high in the air. In fact - be prepared to deal with MJD because I'm sure she'll be casting at you - probably during a maximized time stop, along with all the massive epic buff spells she's sure to cast on herself. Yes she is an epic caster - and she's more procient at it then your mortal casters will be. Make sure you get a copy of the Dragonomicaon book - it gives a ton of feats for dragons - and I'm sure she'll have a few of those. It also gives dragon attacking ideas, for both sides - be familiar with it (more then your DM). She's so large that she's beyond the radius of an Anti-magic Shell spell - so she'll be casting from at least one (and I'd have 2-3) heads per round, plus her physical attacks, and at least one breath weapon (feat to mess with the type - perhaps acid, sonic, etc...) at you. Now if you have access to high level epic items - make sure you get a ring of universal energy immunity (yes the most expensive ring in the epic book - but without it don't even try to fight her). Use your Epic Wizard to cast spells that are like Epic Dimensional Anchor and such - so she can't get those high level allies to help her. Of course no spell is going to stop the might of a God - so you might not be able to stop her from fleeing, but if you can stop her from summoning a Duke of Hell - who then calls his legions of pit fiends - and the blood wars millions under his command come to his call.... well that's something. Also if you can find a way to distant her from the eons of dragon horde she has - because if she grabs a couple of dragon artifacts that screws the whole thing. Imagine if you will she grabs an artifact that stops all magic within - lets say a 2 mile radius. Can you hit her ac just on your level and str? No magical bonuses - hmmm. She might well rip your whole group apart without taking any damage ----- so beware that you are more in danger from anti-magic zones then she probably will be. Who knows what plane spanning artifacts she will have in her horde. Surprise will be hard - since many dieties can see into the future - so if there is a way to make a plan, without ever really talking about it - or talking in code - since most dieties can hear whenever their name is used. Also - make sure you have some immunity to psionics --- I've used that weakness to destroy groups that forget about them. Doesn't every Dragon Queen keep at least one Paragon Mind Flayer on the payroll - just to deal with those nasty adventurers:) If you fight her in her own realm, be prepared for the floor to drop away at any minute - just sort of disappearing - because she can fly that won't be an issue for her --- but it might be for you, when coupled with that huge Dispel Magic Zone she just hit you with. Ok there are a few ideas to be prepared to deal with. When you fight the powers all I can say is good luck. Maybe if your group is all 50th level and appropriatly outfitted... still - good luck. while thats all duley noted i would just like to say that we have no intention of fighting her immediately, it is going to be the finally of this campeign, possibly happening on the day before 4th ed, and there will be some level acceleration, and while your right that there is no way to pull a god against their will, there is however a way to attempt and summon her, which she has no obligation to accept, but given that information, if i cast repeatedly then it'll be annoying, as for the floor thing each and every member of our party can fly, favoured souls, dragon shamans, races, dragon disciples, we all got wings. i never said it would be easy, also the mindflayers are off doing their whole world conquest thing in our setting, as for the planes thing, our setting has mass wars between the species of dragon, metalic vs. chromatic and most of the devils/demons have been imprisoned by the celestial beings. i'm still not saying it will be easy, but i think we may be able to do it, also we have our own deity, 0th raqnk at the moment but in 1 feat he goes to 2nd rank (gotta love the dm saying that you can use leadership and epic leadership to count as worshippers) etc etc... besides, even if she does hunt us for the rest of our lives for killing her avatar, isnt that what we want, to fight tiamat???? but like i said, its not iminant but i'm planning for the future.
rob_douglas 04-18-08, 05:03 PM	yes they do stack mainly because of the order i took them in, you don't become a proper half dragon by either class until the last level, so as long as i start both before i finish either i can get all the benefits of both thank you very much Sage Advice made it clear that if you no longer meet the prereqs of a prestige class, you don't get and actually lose all the benefits of the PrC, except for HD, hp, BAB and saves, and skills. See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080410a So it is not in the letter of the rules to stack them. It is clearly not in the spirit of them. If you want to house rule it, fine, but don't be surprised that you come up a little overpowered from what you would expect otherwise. ROB
lord-bear 04-18-08, 07:06 PM	hmmm, while that may be true, explain epic dragon disciple, at level 10 of dragon disciple you gain the half dragon template thus you no longer have the requirements to be a dragon disciple, meaning you would loose the half dragon template...ach it loops, nope my dm ruled that you only have to have the recs to start taking a class and you could carry on taking it even if you later failed to fulfill the requirements, such as acquiring the half dragon template midway through dragon disciple, unless of course it is specifically stated otherwise such as the alignment thing of a paladin.