Tiamat Fight Suggestions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tiamat Fight Suggestions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kihon
05-01-07, 01:41 PM Looking for suggestions on an upcoming battle against Tiamat.
Playing H4 in which the Plat. Dragon Diety will transport the group into Tiamat's lair - bypassing her defenses to get them there, and it's a straight up roll to see who goes first (she likely wins). The module has her hanging out with one of each ancient evil dragon (White, Black, Green, Blue, & Red).

What is likely to happen here? Tiamat casts an epic spell & breaths? A couple of the dragons breath also, a few casts spells? Tiamat calls for help from her devil allies that are surely not far away. H4 has her unaware of their pending arrival, so no buffs would be up at their arrival. Your suggestions for playing out Tiamat & her dragon allies plus any other arrivals for a couple of rounds of action would be greatly appreciated.

The group will have six characters - all near 50th level - it's their final fight of the adventure & their careers. Their snap appearance to the dragons would be 1 paladin, 1 cleric, 1 ranger, 1 rogue, & 2 unknowns (immortals). All the characters would know the fight is coming and be buffed up - the immortals (using the immortal handbook) have just begun their ascent (magic/fire & magic/negative energy) - both are wizard types. They have access to most anything in the DM's Guide & a good portion of what's in the Epic Book - for equipment. Can this group really kill Tiamat in her own lair in Hell? They'd be ready, they have the best equipment available, they've known about this fight, so what's likely to happen? Any suggestions on what the players might do that could give the dragons a run for their money or even win?

I know that to be more precise you'd need a lot more info on the individual group members, but for the sake of brevity just assume they have the gear & spells. So what could they do to win? I just see Tiamat and the other dragons taking em down fast, or calling in lots of devil allies and just over-whelming them if they can't shut em down fast with breath weapons or spells.

Any suggestions and comments for either side would be appreciated. Thanks.
Witch
05-01-07, 01:55 PM What're the statistics you're using for Tiamat?
Particularly, what Divine Rank are you giving her?
rob_douglas
05-01-07, 02:10 PM Yeah, the stats matter a lot. Using Tiamat from the Manual of the Planes, she is a real push-over for 50th level characters. Using the Deities and Demigods is a lot better but still not epic enough. She doesn't have the SDAs that would make her auto-win the situation. And she lacks epic feats.

She can breathe with all 5 heads, or cast one spell in place of a breath, or attack with any or all heads that don't breath or cast. Her multiheaded nature makes her able to do a lot. Some feats that would really help her include Quicken Breath, Clinging Breath. She would really need more HD to deal with such powerful PCs as well. Her dragon consorts will cause a whole mess of trouble on their own. But Universal Energy Immunity makes most of their breath weapons useless unless they also have metabreath feats to overcome that - including feats to make their breath weapons knock down opponents. They should have room in her layer to fly around, so expect a lot of strafing runs.

ROB
The Serge7
05-01-07, 03:04 PM Well, her Annihilating Strike SDA could be problematic, but at 50th level, the party's saves should be high enough to survive. Also, I'm not convinced that her hp from DDG are high enough to truly be a threat to six 50th level characters and she doesn't have any epic spells to speak of. Frankly, she'd have a hard time proving a threat by herself as written straight from the DDG against well-built 50th level PCs (I'll add the caveat that I don't have her stats handy for review).

Tiamat's one of those monsters that can be a real challenge to handle. With five heads that can all act in one round doing different things, giving her too high a HD could really make her a nightmare for virtually any epic group.
Kihon
05-01-07, 05:20 PM I was going to use the Deities & Demigods Book Stats. I saw a make for her at Dice Freaks - but that was truly unstoppable. I would like a fight that's at least interesting, not a total slaughter - unless that's what happens.

The whole group won't have universal energy immunity, but they will have buff spells to assist. I am curious what a bunch of dragons would do if a group popped in on them. Obviously high level opponents if they bypassed the wards meant to keep beings from doing what they just did (Thanks to the Plat. Dragon).

I might make all the dragons Great Wyrms instead of ancient as is written in the h4 module. I would also give Tiamat a few epic feats and epic spells. Obviously time and money haven't been stopping her from doing any research over the eons. Also a lord of the plane I'm figuring her brining in some devil assistance fast.

So please post what you would do with the Tiamat, the dragons, and anything that gets summoned in by them for the first couple of rounds and/or what you think the party should do to try and win.
DeathBecomesUs
05-01-07, 10:43 PM I wonder if your groups games are online anywhere? I would very much enjoy reading along with these adventures. H4 (all of H series) I find interested, much potential, but very poorly done.

Anyway........... any chance you have an online site where I could read along with your adventures?
spike81101
05-01-07, 11:20 PM May I ask what H4 is?
rob_douglas
05-02-07, 01:31 AM H4 is the final installment of the 1E Bloodstone Adventures. The goal is to kill Orcus at home. It was touted as being good for characters of level 18-100! All are available from Paizo.com I think, or wizards, or one of those sights with PDFs of old modules.

The 100 levels thing was a bit of a ruse, because the first thing they noted in there about 1E level 100 characters was that by the RAW, they didn't get more spells, abilities, thief skills, or anything, except about 3 hp per level as a fighter, and less for others. All their saves were 2 or better by that time, and they had maxed out fighting ability, and with the right equipment could hit AC -10 on a 2 or better (that is the best AC allowed in 1E as well), so the 100th level was a bit of a false lead.

Still an interesting run - as you could dispatch all the major demon lords and archdevils in the course of the adventure. :) Worth a look for at least some epic ideas.

ROB
bluemage55
05-02-07, 01:51 AM Also of note is that King Gareth Dragonsbane of Damara and his friends are the ones who completed H1 - H4 in Forgotten Realms canon.

Gareth is a Paladin 20/Cleric 5 of Ilmater, and his allies are close to his level of power (Grandmaster Monk Kane, is particularly powerful, able to defeat CR 18+ Artemis Entreri in one round).
The Serge7
05-02-07, 08:30 AM I was going to use the Deities & Demigods Book Stats. I saw a make for her at Dice Freaks - but that was truly unstoppable. I would like a fight that's at least interesting, not a total slaughter - unless that's what happens.
We don't like the "big Tiamat" at Dicefreaks either, which is why I didn't recommend her. ;) But, again, I don't know that her rendition in DDG really makes her a threat to a EL 54 party; I think you'd need to overhaul her some to make her fit into an epic paradigm and probably adjust her somewhat to take advantage of dragon-specific feats. Off the cuff, I'd place her HD double that of a great red wyrm, give her Colossal+ size, and adjust from there. At the very least, I'd want to get her to at least CR 58 to offer a challenge to the PCs. Now, that's her by herself; once you throw the other dragons, the abishai that should be swarming all over the place, and the possibility of some serious devilish action (like some pit fiends and cornugons), the PCs could have a real nightmare on their hands from being overwhelmed.

I might make all the dragons Great Wyrms instead of ancient as is written in the h4 module. I would also give Tiamat a few epic feats and epic spells. Obviously time and money haven't been stopping her from doing any research over the eons. Also a lord of the plane I'm figuring her brining in some devil assistance fast.
Well, I believe 3ed great wyrms are the equivalent age-wise of ancient dragons. And, frankly, I'd probably increase their age categories to make them all Colossal+. I don't think you'd end up with anything over CR 40 and one would be a real pushover for 50th level PCS... Five of them, though, would approach and possibly surpass their ECL.

So please post what you would do with the Tiamat, the dragons, and anything that gets summoned in by them for the first couple of rounds and/or what you think the party should do to try and win.
Well, I think I give you some suggestions for rebuilding her above. She'd have access to some high level spells and probably at least one epic spell, if not more, although I don't know if any in the ELH would be worth her while. I would definitely have the place swarming with abishai, although it would take them a few rounds (1d6) to show up in large numbers. I absolutely think she'd end up summoning some diabolical help, although I wouldn't throw in a Duke of Hell (if you're using FCII material, she is served by a couple, but there are no stats for them and it's unclear how WotC perceives "official" stats for non-Lord arch-devils nowadays). I'd think a few pit fiends would show up. Remember that the fact that she effectively has at least five actions with her head gives her a tremendous amount of flexibility... She could conceivably allow her consorts and abishai to swarm the PCs while she spends time buffing herself, her allies, summons in some aid, casts an epic spell (assuming it's just one action), and breathe or cast a traditional spell. and this doesn't take into account her SDAs (I don't know if she can call dragons or not). In effect, if played properly, she could keep the PCs at bay for a while and, if you adjust how the DC on her Annihilating Strike is determined (which, as a lesser god, she should have in the first place), it could be increased to truly be a threat to the PCs.

Good luck.
Kihon
05-02-07, 09:25 AM H4 was the last in the Bloodstone adventures. I've had to update it but it's going well. You don't actually have to kill Orcus, but you do need to get his "wand." Yes you could in theory get to most of the other demon lords. Interesting idea, but it ends once you have the wand of Orcus and find out from the Plat. Dragon that the only way to destroy it is to dip it in the heart blood of Tiamat - thus the final epic fight.

On Tiamat's side I'll make her five allie dragons great wyrms - I'll have the Blue, Black, & White breath right away while the Green & Red cast spells. I'll have Tiamat call in a couple of Pit Fiends while her Blue, Black, & White Heads all breath (common coordinated attack pre-planned with the other dragons). The Red head will concentrate on casting an epic spell (Greater Ruin maybe), while the Green head calls in the Pit Fiends. I was also playing with the idea of adding in a great wyrm Hellfire Dragon (FF) to the mix as well. I'm getting a pretty good idea on how to run the combat.

Ok now my question on the flip side - what can I expect from a group of epic players to try and win this? I'd assume they will somehow to block the great lair so no more allies of her's can show up - not sure how they will try, but we'll see. What else could this group come up with? Any ideas appreciated - no matter how wild. Thanks for the help.
yellowdingo
05-03-07, 07:48 PM Suggestions?

Paladin marches into the BBEG HQ, picks up the eye of Bahamut (only touchable by Lawful Good), summons the Dragon, Nuclear strike from orbit descimates everyone and everything in 100 mile radius.

Paladin rememberd fondly as crazy guy who sacrificed own life to trap nasty Tiamat in other realm and destroy her followers...fallout kills surrounding kingdoms ect. Eventually Paladin remembered as nutjob BBEG who got other people killed for his religious intolerance.
Ertai Planeswalker
05-03-07, 09:16 PM Tiamat is a wise being. As such, when a bunch of high level heroes suddenly appear in her lair, she'll probably flee immediatley, to return shortly thereafter. Creatures that powerfull and intelligent do not fight on somebody else's terms.

Also, i don't know what her bonus is to spellcraft, but she should have a few epic spells appropriate for someone of her epicness, thus with the highest possible dc that she can make on a 1.

And even if you feel she should stay and fight, then she/they'd probably start with one or more Mordekainens Disjunction spells. Even level 50 pc's drop a lot in power without their magical weapons. Seeing as how without magic weapons they cannot overcome her huge damage reduction, the pc's probably lose.

One or two of the dragons, which will probably be epic though but otherwise a 9th levle spell will suffice, will either hit the parties wizard with a save or die spell or otherwise inflict as much negative levels as possible, to take away the pc's high level spells.

Truth be told, basically each pc has a dragon to fight, one of them being Tiamat. The dragons can just grapple and pin the pc's and that will be it.

The one thing you can expect from your pc's is universal energy immunity, to prevent the damage by the dragon's breath weapons. Getting a ridiculously high spell resistance wouldn't be beyond me if i was playing as well. Also, everybody a freedom of movement to prevent being grappled.
Witch
05-04-07, 09:38 AM And even if you feel she should stay and fight, then she/they'd probably start with one or more Mordekainens Disjunction spells. Even level 50 pc's drop a lot in power without their magical weapons. Seeing as how without magic weapons they cannot overcome her huge damage reduction, the pc's probably lose.
The magic items won't be affected, given the fact that, excepting a natural one, no PC should ever fail a Saving Throw against a spell on that level.
NoldorForce
05-04-07, 11:30 AM The magic items won't be affected, given the fact that, excepting a natural one, no PC should ever fail a Saving Throw against a spell on that level.Which is why the party will want to grab up a good supply of things that allow rerolls of saving throws. At epic levels, they're cheap.
Minmaximus
05-07-07, 10:40 AM Level 50? Wow. I am going to be running a campaign soon that will go from lvl 10 to about 30. It will be in baator. I can't think of anything that could challenge characters of 50+. Tiamat from manual of planes and the deities books would get slaughtered by those "heroes". Would be a total let down. Tiamat is one of the few "main-eventers" with real star power. If they fight her, it should be the last fight in the campaign, and she should kill/obliterate a few of them.
Witch
05-07-07, 10:47 AM Level 50? Wow. I am going to be running a campaign soon that will go from lvl 10 to about 30. It will be in baator. I can't think of anything that could challenge characters of 50+. Tiamat from manual of planes and the deities books would get slaughtered by those "heroes". Would be a total let down. Tiamat is one of the few "main-eventers" with real star power. If they fight her, it should be the last fight in the campaign, and she should kill/obliterate a few of them.
Dicefreaks' Gates of Hell holds plenty of material that challenges characters of that level - though to kill them is hardly the intent in most cases :)
Kihon
05-09-07, 11:48 AM There was a great thread over at Dice Freaks about level 50 being the very peak that a mortal could attain to. The group will be approximately level 50. I still think that Tiamat, 5 great wyrms (Red, Blue, Green, Black, & White), a great wyrm Hellfire Dragon, a couple of Pit Fiends, and a bunch as abashi devils running around will give the group a fight for their lives. I'm sure Timat will use an epic spell or four on them, and I really don't see them "blowing her away" as some predict - time shall tell of course. I can also see her summoning in other powerful allies as well (if need be - although unlikely).
Diplominator
05-09-07, 10:10 PM Dicefreaks' Gates of Hell holds plenty of material that challenges characters of that level - though to kill them is hardly the intent in most cases :)

Psh. Yeah. "Most."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kihon 05-01-07, 01:41 PM	Looking for suggestions on an upcoming battle against Tiamat. Playing H4 in which the Plat. Dragon Diety will transport the group into Tiamat's lair - bypassing her defenses to get them there, and it's a straight up roll to see who goes first (she likely wins). The module has her hanging out with one of each ancient evil dragon (White, Black, Green, Blue, & Red). What is likely to happen here? Tiamat casts an epic spell & breaths? A couple of the dragons breath also, a few casts spells? Tiamat calls for help from her devil allies that are surely not far away. H4 has her unaware of their pending arrival, so no buffs would be up at their arrival. Your suggestions for playing out Tiamat & her dragon allies plus any other arrivals for a couple of rounds of action would be greatly appreciated. The group will have six characters - all near 50th level - it's their final fight of the adventure & their careers. Their snap appearance to the dragons would be 1 paladin, 1 cleric, 1 ranger, 1 rogue, & 2 unknowns (immortals). All the characters would know the fight is coming and be buffed up - the immortals (using the immortal handbook) have just begun their ascent (magic/fire & magic/negative energy) - both are wizard types. They have access to most anything in the DM's Guide & a good portion of what's in the Epic Book - for equipment. Can this group really kill Tiamat in her own lair in Hell? They'd be ready, they have the best equipment available, they've known about this fight, so what's likely to happen? Any suggestions on what the players might do that could give the dragons a run for their money or even win? I know that to be more precise you'd need a lot more info on the individual group members, but for the sake of brevity just assume they have the gear & spells. So what could they do to win? I just see Tiamat and the other dragons taking em down fast, or calling in lots of devil allies and just over-whelming them if they can't shut em down fast with breath weapons or spells. Any suggestions and comments for either side would be appreciated. Thanks.
Witch 05-01-07, 01:55 PM	What're the statistics you're using for Tiamat? Particularly, what Divine Rank are you giving her?
rob_douglas 05-01-07, 02:10 PM	Yeah, the stats matter a lot. Using Tiamat from the Manual of the Planes, she is a real push-over for 50th level characters. Using the Deities and Demigods is a lot better but still not epic enough. She doesn't have the SDAs that would make her auto-win the situation. And she lacks epic feats. She can breathe with all 5 heads, or cast one spell in place of a breath, or attack with any or all heads that don't breath or cast. Her multiheaded nature makes her able to do a lot. Some feats that would really help her include Quicken Breath, Clinging Breath. She would really need more HD to deal with such powerful PCs as well. Her dragon consorts will cause a whole mess of trouble on their own. But Universal Energy Immunity makes most of their breath weapons useless unless they also have metabreath feats to overcome that - including feats to make their breath weapons knock down opponents. They should have room in her layer to fly around, so expect a lot of strafing runs. ROB
The Serge7 05-01-07, 03:04 PM	Well, her Annihilating Strike SDA could be problematic, but at 50th level, the party's saves should be high enough to survive. Also, I'm not convinced that her hp from DDG are high enough to truly be a threat to six 50th level characters and she doesn't have any epic spells to speak of. Frankly, she'd have a hard time proving a threat by herself as written straight from the DDG against well-built 50th level PCs (I'll add the caveat that I don't have her stats handy for review). Tiamat's one of those monsters that can be a real challenge to handle. With five heads that can all act in one round doing different things, giving her too high a HD could really make her a nightmare for virtually any epic group.
Kihon 05-01-07, 05:20 PM	I was going to use the Deities & Demigods Book Stats. I saw a make for her at Dice Freaks - but that was truly unstoppable. I would like a fight that's at least interesting, not a total slaughter - unless that's what happens. The whole group won't have universal energy immunity, but they will have buff spells to assist. I am curious what a bunch of dragons would do if a group popped in on them. Obviously high level opponents if they bypassed the wards meant to keep beings from doing what they just did (Thanks to the Plat. Dragon). I might make all the dragons Great Wyrms instead of ancient as is written in the h4 module. I would also give Tiamat a few epic feats and epic spells. Obviously time and money haven't been stopping her from doing any research over the eons. Also a lord of the plane I'm figuring her brining in some devil assistance fast. So please post what you would do with the Tiamat, the dragons, and anything that gets summoned in by them for the first couple of rounds and/or what you think the party should do to try and win.
DeathBecomesUs 05-01-07, 10:43 PM	I wonder if your groups games are online anywhere? I would very much enjoy reading along with these adventures. H4 (all of H series) I find interested, much potential, but very poorly done. Anyway........... any chance you have an online site where I could read along with your adventures?
spike81101 05-01-07, 11:20 PM	May I ask what H4 is?
rob_douglas 05-02-07, 01:31 AM	H4 is the final installment of the 1E Bloodstone Adventures. The goal is to kill Orcus at home. It was touted as being good for characters of level 18-100! All are available from Paizo.com I think, or wizards, or one of those sights with PDFs of old modules. The 100 levels thing was a bit of a ruse, because the first thing they noted in there about 1E level 100 characters was that by the RAW, they didn't get more spells, abilities, thief skills, or anything, except about 3 hp per level as a fighter, and less for others. All their saves were 2 or better by that time, and they had maxed out fighting ability, and with the right equipment could hit AC -10 on a 2 or better (that is the best AC allowed in 1E as well), so the 100th level was a bit of a false lead. Still an interesting run - as you could dispatch all the major demon lords and archdevils in the course of the adventure. :) Worth a look for at least some epic ideas. ROB
bluemage55 05-02-07, 01:51 AM	Also of note is that King Gareth Dragonsbane of Damara and his friends are the ones who completed H1 - H4 in Forgotten Realms canon. Gareth is a Paladin 20/Cleric 5 of Ilmater, and his allies are close to his level of power (Grandmaster Monk Kane, is particularly powerful, able to defeat CR 18+ Artemis Entreri in one round).
The Serge7 05-02-07, 08:30 AM	I was going to use the Deities & Demigods Book Stats. I saw a make for her at Dice Freaks - but that was truly unstoppable. I would like a fight that's at least interesting, not a total slaughter - unless that's what happens. We don't like the "big Tiamat" at Dicefreaks either, which is why I didn't recommend her. ;) But, again, I don't know that her rendition in DDG really makes her a threat to a EL 54 party; I think you'd need to overhaul her some to make her fit into an epic paradigm and probably adjust her somewhat to take advantage of dragon-specific feats. Off the cuff, I'd place her HD double that of a great red wyrm, give her Colossal+ size, and adjust from there. At the very least, I'd want to get her to at least CR 58 to offer a challenge to the PCs. Now, that's her by herself; once you throw the other dragons, the abishai that should be swarming all over the place, and the possibility of some serious devilish action (like some pit fiends and cornugons), the PCs could have a real nightmare on their hands from being overwhelmed. I might make all the dragons Great Wyrms instead of ancient as is written in the h4 module. I would also give Tiamat a few epic feats and epic spells. Obviously time and money haven't been stopping her from doing any research over the eons. Also a lord of the plane I'm figuring her brining in some devil assistance fast. Well, I believe 3ed great wyrms are the equivalent age-wise of ancient dragons. And, frankly, I'd probably increase their age categories to make them all Colossal+. I don't think you'd end up with anything over CR 40 and one would be a real pushover for 50th level PCS... Five of them, though, would approach and possibly surpass their ECL. So please post what you would do with the Tiamat, the dragons, and anything that gets summoned in by them for the first couple of rounds and/or what you think the party should do to try and win. Well, I think I give you some suggestions for rebuilding her above. She'd have access to some high level spells and probably at least one epic spell, if not more, although I don't know if any in the ELH would be worth her while. I would definitely have the place swarming with abishai, although it would take them a few rounds (1d6) to show up in large numbers. I absolutely think she'd end up summoning some diabolical help, although I wouldn't throw in a Duke of Hell (if you're using FCII material, she is served by a couple, but there are no stats for them and it's unclear how WotC perceives "official" stats for non-Lord arch-devils nowadays). I'd think a few pit fiends would show up. Remember that the fact that she effectively has at least five actions with her head gives her a tremendous amount of flexibility... She could conceivably allow her consorts and abishai to swarm the PCs while she spends time buffing herself, her allies, summons in some aid, casts an epic spell (assuming it's just one action), and breathe or cast a traditional spell. and this doesn't take into account her SDAs (I don't know if she can call dragons or not). In effect, if played properly, she could keep the PCs at bay for a while and, if you adjust how the DC on her Annihilating Strike is determined (which, as a lesser god, she should have in the first place), it could be increased to truly be a threat to the PCs. Good luck.
Kihon 05-02-07, 09:25 AM	H4 was the last in the Bloodstone adventures. I've had to update it but it's going well. You don't actually have to kill Orcus, but you do need to get his "wand." Yes you could in theory get to most of the other demon lords. Interesting idea, but it ends once you have the wand of Orcus and find out from the Plat. Dragon that the only way to destroy it is to dip it in the heart blood of Tiamat - thus the final epic fight. On Tiamat's side I'll make her five allie dragons great wyrms - I'll have the Blue, Black, & White breath right away while the Green & Red cast spells. I'll have Tiamat call in a couple of Pit Fiends while her Blue, Black, & White Heads all breath (common coordinated attack pre-planned with the other dragons). The Red head will concentrate on casting an epic spell (Greater Ruin maybe), while the Green head calls in the Pit Fiends. I was also playing with the idea of adding in a great wyrm Hellfire Dragon (FF) to the mix as well. I'm getting a pretty good idea on how to run the combat. Ok now my question on the flip side - what can I expect from a group of epic players to try and win this? I'd assume they will somehow to block the great lair so no more allies of her's can show up - not sure how they will try, but we'll see. What else could this group come up with? Any ideas appreciated - no matter how wild. Thanks for the help.
yellowdingo 05-03-07, 07:48 PM	Suggestions? Paladin marches into the BBEG HQ, picks up the eye of Bahamut (only touchable by Lawful Good), summons the Dragon, Nuclear strike from orbit descimates everyone and everything in 100 mile radius. Paladin rememberd fondly as crazy guy who sacrificed own life to trap nasty Tiamat in other realm and destroy her followers...fallout kills surrounding kingdoms ect. Eventually Paladin remembered as nutjob BBEG who got other people killed for his religious intolerance.
Ertai Planeswalker 05-03-07, 09:16 PM	Tiamat is a wise being. As such, when a bunch of high level heroes suddenly appear in her lair, she'll probably flee immediatley, to return shortly thereafter. Creatures that powerfull and intelligent do not fight on somebody else's terms. Also, i don't know what her bonus is to spellcraft, but she should have a few epic spells appropriate for someone of her epicness, thus with the highest possible dc that she can make on a 1. And even if you feel she should stay and fight, then she/they'd probably start with one or more Mordekainens Disjunction spells. Even level 50 pc's drop a lot in power without their magical weapons. Seeing as how without magic weapons they cannot overcome her huge damage reduction, the pc's probably lose. One or two of the dragons, which will probably be epic though but otherwise a 9th levle spell will suffice, will either hit the parties wizard with a save or die spell or otherwise inflict as much negative levels as possible, to take away the pc's high level spells. Truth be told, basically each pc has a dragon to fight, one of them being Tiamat. The dragons can just grapple and pin the pc's and that will be it. The one thing you can expect from your pc's is universal energy immunity, to prevent the damage by the dragon's breath weapons. Getting a ridiculously high spell resistance wouldn't be beyond me if i was playing as well. Also, everybody a freedom of movement to prevent being grappled.
Witch 05-04-07, 09:38 AM	And even if you feel she should stay and fight, then she/they'd probably start with one or more Mordekainens Disjunction spells. Even level 50 pc's drop a lot in power without their magical weapons. Seeing as how without magic weapons they cannot overcome her huge damage reduction, the pc's probably lose. The magic items won't be affected, given the fact that, excepting a natural one, no PC should ever fail a Saving Throw against a spell on that level.
NoldorForce 05-04-07, 11:30 AM	The magic items won't be affected, given the fact that, excepting a natural one, no PC should ever fail a Saving Throw against a spell on that level.Which is why the party will want to grab up a good supply of things that allow rerolls of saving throws. At epic levels, they're cheap.
Minmaximus 05-07-07, 10:40 AM	Level 50? Wow. I am going to be running a campaign soon that will go from lvl 10 to about 30. It will be in baator. I can't think of anything that could challenge characters of 50+. Tiamat from manual of planes and the deities books would get slaughtered by those "heroes". Would be a total let down. Tiamat is one of the few "main-eventers" with real star power. If they fight her, it should be the last fight in the campaign, and she should kill/obliterate a few of them.
Witch 05-07-07, 10:47 AM	Level 50? Wow. I am going to be running a campaign soon that will go from lvl 10 to about 30. It will be in baator. I can't think of anything that could challenge characters of 50+. Tiamat from manual of planes and the deities books would get slaughtered by those "heroes". Would be a total let down. Tiamat is one of the few "main-eventers" with real star power. If they fight her, it should be the last fight in the campaign, and she should kill/obliterate a few of them. Dicefreaks' Gates of Hell holds plenty of material that challenges characters of that level - though to kill them is hardly the intent in most cases :)
Kihon 05-09-07, 11:48 AM	There was a great thread over at Dice Freaks about level 50 being the very peak that a mortal could attain to. The group will be approximately level 50. I still think that Tiamat, 5 great wyrms (Red, Blue, Green, Black, & White), a great wyrm Hellfire Dragon, a couple of Pit Fiends, and a bunch as abashi devils running around will give the group a fight for their lives. I'm sure Timat will use an epic spell or four on them, and I really don't see them "blowing her away" as some predict - time shall tell of course. I can also see her summoning in other powerful allies as well (if need be - although unlikely).
Diplominator 05-09-07, 10:10 PM	Dicefreaks' Gates of Hell holds plenty of material that challenges characters of that level - though to kill them is hardly the intent in most cases :) Psh. Yeah. "Most."