Titan PC [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Titan PC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Saefal
02-11-08, 08:37 PM So in my epic campaign a Titan PC is being considered. Seeing as it already is required to have 20hd of outsider would a +10 la seem reasonable. Basically a Titan as a 30 level Monster class. I figure the spell like abilities are powerful and the stat adjustments incredible but as a 30 level class it should be fairly even.
Sulacu
02-11-08, 09:24 PM Well, estimating the ECL/CR ratio is not always easy. Sometimes the combined HD + LA is like three times the actual CR and sometimes it's between 1 and 2 times as much. At lower levels, things are all over the place. I would say that when levels get higher, your creatures will usually have an ECL of about 1.5×CR.

Examples:

Rakshasa: HD 7, LA +7 : CR 10 / ECL 14 ~ factor 1.4
Ogre Mage: HD 5, LA +7 : CR 8 / ECL 12 ~ factor 1.5
Ghaele Eladrin: HD 10, LA +10 : CR 13 / ECL 20 ~ factor ±1.54

So yes, given a Titan's HD is 20 and its CR is 21, you could easily say its LA is about +10 or +11.
Saefal
02-12-08, 06:45 PM hmm I had never thought about it in that way. Good look at the math, thank you.
ikki
02-14-08, 04:17 AM but epic works differently, just have a look at the playing a monster in the epic handbook,...

For a titan, maybe la +3 (23)
Solar la +4 (26)
Saefal
02-14-08, 09:16 AM I looked up LA in the monster section and whilst it was interesting to see that they provided ECL's for various epic monsters I couldn't find were it adjusted the LA's of Non-epic creatures at all, could you help me to find that because it would be very helpful.
Sulacu
02-15-08, 07:55 AM You're not going to tell me that a Solar, a creature that can cast earthquake and imprisonment at will, along with like another dozen of spell like abilities, that has continuous true seeing, evil and trap detecting and can cast spells like a 20th level cleric, has only an LA of +4. An Astral Deva has an LA of +8, I would estimate a Planetar to be at LA +9 (ECL 23), and a storm giant, which already has like 18 HD, still has an LA of +9. This is one of the times I have to say 'epic, schmepic' and continue as normal.
Paladin's Pride
02-15-08, 12:07 PM 30 sounds just about right to me. The primary thing to be considered is his massive ability scores, though DR15/lawful could still come in handy against alot of things. It's spell-like abilities aren't likely to contribute significantly in a 30th level game, so they don't up things by any great extent. His natural armor provides a big bonus, since he can still wear magic armor, buy magic rings, etc. There's a good chance that monsters would actually miss the titan instead of all attack rolls being virtually instant hits.
rob_douglas
02-16-08, 11:33 AM The best estimate I had for a Solar was ECL 36, a +14 LA from an old Dragon magazine. I think that had Titans as ECL30. Not much more. That was when they had spellcasting levels too though.

I think that Epic LA is a little over-exaggerated, but the goal has always been to make the ECL creature inferior to a straight classed character.

ROB
Saefal
02-16-08, 12:12 PM Do you know the issue #?
Tshern
02-16-08, 01:20 PM Do you know the issue #?
No fear, Rob was here at the end of the year 2006!

rob_douglas
11-20-06, 04:16 PM
There was an attempt in Dragon Magazine prior to Savage Species (Dragon 293, March 2002), that placed a Planetar at ECL 28 (LA +14) and a Solar at 36 (also +14). The Balor was Balor 28 (that was the old 13-HD one) and Marilith 24 (also old). Pit Fiend 26 (I think they were 16 HD in 3.0).

It is the best source I have for some of those mega levels. There is also Upper_Krust's independent assertion that ECL should be 3/2*CR. It at least gets you in the right ball park.

ROB
kreesteeyan
02-16-08, 01:38 PM Was it dragon 293 rob?
Saefal
02-16-08, 04:13 PM Rockin! Thanks
Tshern
02-16-08, 07:27 PM Rockin! Thanks
Nice to hear I was of any help. The real thanks should go to rob_douglas for his amazing amount of epic game knowledge.
Saefal
02-17-08, 11:45 AM so looking that issue over they were an ECL 30 in 3.0. Someone mentioned that they had inherent spellcasting abilities in 3.0 as well. Would the ECL be affected by the change or does the new version balance out. I found the 3.0 SRD to look it up and it seems 20th level casting makes a big difference in power level. Any thoughts on this?
Einvaldurinn_mikli
02-17-08, 12:21 PM Well, I made a savage progression for Titans a while back. You could check that and see if you like it.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=929659
Saefal
02-17-08, 12:57 PM Wow, Irony I just posted to that thread saying I liked it and talking a little on the savage progression in gestalt. Thanks for that
rob_douglas
02-18-08, 11:54 AM HI All

Yep - it was Dragon 293. I think that for starters, 30 is still a good place to work off of. At Epic, ECL is really a balancing act. You need to see how the players are doing compared to each other. If the Titan is not getting his fair shakes, then his ECL is probably too high. If he dominates game time, it is too low. That is all ECl is designed to do anyway, make it fair to play that character in the same game as another.

As for the spellcasting ability, I think it was underconsidered in 3.0. It is definitely weaker to play a Titan without 20th level spellcasting, but they increased a lot of the SLAs to compensate some, and really increased stats as well.

ROB
Saefal
02-18-08, 02:38 PM I had about the same assessment looking over the differences.

I am trying to make the progression workable form basic play all the way up through epic. I am going to play him as a fallen Titan who was forced to give up his power for some reason and is almost mortal and basically fighting his way back to power. The campaign is starting at level 3 but has plot designed through 40 ( so the DM says lol, but I trust him)

So it is even a little trickier for me as I need him to be fair and viable at level 3 and all the way to his full progression. Now, I will grant you that as a gestalt game this is easier, I am going Sorcerer up the other side, but still tough as i don't want to overpower either.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saefal 02-11-08, 08:37 PM	So in my epic campaign a Titan PC is being considered. Seeing as it already is required to have 20hd of outsider would a +10 la seem reasonable. Basically a Titan as a 30 level Monster class. I figure the spell like abilities are powerful and the stat adjustments incredible but as a 30 level class it should be fairly even.
Sulacu 02-11-08, 09:24 PM	Well, estimating the ECL/CR ratio is not always easy. Sometimes the combined HD + LA is like three times the actual CR and sometimes it's between 1 and 2 times as much. At lower levels, things are all over the place. I would say that when levels get higher, your creatures will usually have an ECL of about 1.5×CR. Examples: Rakshasa: HD 7, LA +7 : CR 10 / ECL 14 ~ factor 1.4 Ogre Mage: HD 5, LA +7 : CR 8 / ECL 12 ~ factor 1.5 Ghaele Eladrin: HD 10, LA +10 : CR 13 / ECL 20 ~ factor ±1.54 So yes, given a Titan's HD is 20 and its CR is 21, you could easily say its LA is about +10 or +11.
Saefal 02-12-08, 06:45 PM	hmm I had never thought about it in that way. Good look at the math, thank you.
ikki 02-14-08, 04:17 AM	but epic works differently, just have a look at the playing a monster in the epic handbook,... For a titan, maybe la +3 (23) Solar la +4 (26)
Saefal 02-14-08, 09:16 AM	I looked up LA in the monster section and whilst it was interesting to see that they provided ECL's for various epic monsters I couldn't find were it adjusted the LA's of Non-epic creatures at all, could you help me to find that because it would be very helpful.
Sulacu 02-15-08, 07:55 AM	You're not going to tell me that a Solar, a creature that can cast earthquake and imprisonment at will, along with like another dozen of spell like abilities, that has continuous true seeing, evil and trap detecting and can cast spells like a 20th level cleric, has only an LA of +4. An Astral Deva has an LA of +8, I would estimate a Planetar to be at LA +9 (ECL 23), and a storm giant, which already has like 18 HD, still has an LA of +9. This is one of the times I have to say 'epic, schmepic' and continue as normal.
Paladin's Pride 02-15-08, 12:07 PM	30 sounds just about right to me. The primary thing to be considered is his massive ability scores, though DR15/lawful could still come in handy against alot of things. It's spell-like abilities aren't likely to contribute significantly in a 30th level game, so they don't up things by any great extent. His natural armor provides a big bonus, since he can still wear magic armor, buy magic rings, etc. There's a good chance that monsters would actually miss the titan instead of all attack rolls being virtually instant hits.
rob_douglas 02-16-08, 11:33 AM	The best estimate I had for a Solar was ECL 36, a +14 LA from an old Dragon magazine. I think that had Titans as ECL30. Not much more. That was when they had spellcasting levels too though. I think that Epic LA is a little over-exaggerated, but the goal has always been to make the ECL creature inferior to a straight classed character. ROB
Saefal 02-16-08, 12:12 PM	Do you know the issue #?
Tshern 02-16-08, 01:20 PM	Do you know the issue #? No fear, Rob was here at the end of the year 2006! rob_douglas 11-20-06, 04:16 PM There was an attempt in Dragon Magazine prior to Savage Species (Dragon 293, March 2002), that placed a Planetar at ECL 28 (LA +14) and a Solar at 36 (also +14). The Balor was Balor 28 (that was the old 13-HD one) and Marilith 24 (also old). Pit Fiend 26 (I think they were 16 HD in 3.0). It is the best source I have for some of those mega levels. There is also Upper_Krust's independent assertion that ECL should be 3/2*CR. It at least gets you in the right ball park. ROB
kreesteeyan 02-16-08, 01:38 PM	Was it dragon 293 rob?
Saefal 02-16-08, 04:13 PM	Rockin! Thanks
Tshern 02-16-08, 07:27 PM	Rockin! Thanks Nice to hear I was of any help. The real thanks should go to rob_douglas for his amazing amount of epic game knowledge.
Saefal 02-17-08, 11:45 AM	so looking that issue over they were an ECL 30 in 3.0. Someone mentioned that they had inherent spellcasting abilities in 3.0 as well. Would the ECL be affected by the change or does the new version balance out. I found the 3.0 SRD to look it up and it seems 20th level casting makes a big difference in power level. Any thoughts on this?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 02-17-08, 12:21 PM	Well, I made a savage progression for Titans a while back. You could check that and see if you like it. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=929659
Saefal 02-17-08, 12:57 PM	Wow, Irony I just posted to that thread saying I liked it and talking a little on the savage progression in gestalt. Thanks for that
rob_douglas 02-18-08, 11:54 AM	HI All Yep - it was Dragon 293. I think that for starters, 30 is still a good place to work off of. At Epic, ECL is really a balancing act. You need to see how the players are doing compared to each other. If the Titan is not getting his fair shakes, then his ECL is probably too high. If he dominates game time, it is too low. That is all ECl is designed to do anyway, make it fair to play that character in the same game as another. As for the spellcasting ability, I think it was underconsidered in 3.0. It is definitely weaker to play a Titan without 20th level spellcasting, but they increased a lot of the SLAs to compensate some, and really increased stats as well. ROB
Saefal 02-18-08, 02:38 PM	I had about the same assessment looking over the differences. I am trying to make the progression workable form basic play all the way up through epic. I am going to play him as a fallen Titan who was forced to give up his power for some reason and is almost mortal and basically fighting his way back to power. The campaign is starting at level 3 but has plot designed through 40 ( so the DM says lol, but I trust him) So it is even a little trickier for me as I need him to be fair and viable at level 3 and all the way to his full progression. Now, I will grant you that as a gestalt game this is easier, I am going Sorcerer up the other side, but still tough as i don't want to overpower either.