TS' Epic and Deific Rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

TS' Epic and Deific Rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tequila_Sunrise
07-24-07, 02:35 AM Hey folks, this is going to be long, so get a cup o’ coffee before you start in. I’m hoping that I can get some creative inspiration for some epic- and deific- level mechanics. I have limited experience with epic games (I’ve only run one myself, using ELH), and haven’t even considered running a deific game. Nevertheless, it is fun to consider how the rules would work in my world if the game ever got that insane [again].

What I need inspiration for is the mechanics of my level schematics: levels 1-20 are the mortal levels. Though a campaign played in this range may be “epic” in tone, it is not epic is scope. A non-epic game is limited to a single world, at most. Characters of these levels may be super-humanly powerful, but they are still 100% mortal. No new mechanics needed.

Levels 21-40 are truly epic; characters of these levels are not only super-humanly powerful, but they are also ageless, literally and metaphorically. They are somewhere in between mortal and deific, and are likely to be adventuring throughout the various planes of existence. New mechanics needed. I’m considering granting these characters full hp per HD, no auto failures on natural 1s, improved movement and/or immunity to all insta-KO effects to reflect their power and general epic-ness. I think “natural bonuses and powers” (see below) would also be appropriate for epic levels.

Levels 41-60 are deific; characters actually become gods and goddesses. They become truly immortal, only able to be permanently killed by another deity. Haven’t quite decided where, or if, these characters would adventure. New mechanics needed. I do not want to simply mimic d&d’s standard deity stats, as I find many of them rather crude. For example, DR/magic or epic is fine but natural armor bonuses based on divine rank, no. I like, in theory at least, salient divine abilities, natural divine spells and most of the non-combat oriented abilities described in DDG.

“Natural Bonuses and Powers”: A poster on Enworld.org once brought up the idea of epic characters gaining natural bonuses and powers of all types to replace their magic items. For example, an epic character might have a “natural” deflection bonus to AC, making his ring of deflection obsolete. As a character gains more epic levels, he would gain more and better natural bonuses and powers. I personally like this idea, as I think characters should depend less and less on their items as they progress, rather than more and more.

A note on my game design philosophy: I like mechanics to be simple, consistent and balanced. Regarding epic rules, my biggest change has been to remove the monstrosity that is Epic Spellcasting and continue with spells as per levels 1-20 (an epic wizard automatically gets a new spell level at each odd level after 20). After all, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I treat other class abilities similarly: ability potency increases as normal, but I don’t increase uses per day after 20th.

So basically, I’m looking for opinions and ideas on my epic and deific mechanics. Thanks in advance,
TS
rob_douglas
07-24-07, 10:58 AM Some quick thoughts. I like your level breakdown, I am using something similar. Demigodhood could arise anywhere from 30-40th level, but there is something nice about using 40.

I don't like the idea of no-fail on a 1, simply because one of the major dangers to epic characters is knowing that they can fail on a 1. Usually that is all they fail on since it is so hard to increase DCs, compared to saves. Full HP would be easy enough, it makes things last longer - do you do that for opponents as well?

RE: Deific, the natural armor bonus to deities only comes if you have 20 Outsider HD, in other words "natural" deities. Ascended mortals do not gain the 20 HD, and don't gain a natural armor bonus. I do find the growth to deific to be missing, and would like a way to add the abilities in. I think your natural abilities works for that. Deflecttion bonus is based on CHA for anyone with DvR 0 or higher, so that takes care of the ring. I was thinking that the stat bonuses that deties have - some of those could be enhancement bonuses, which would explain why they don't tend to wear ability enhancing items. Add Resistance bonus to saves based on CHA as well, and you will eliminate the need for a lot of items. Gods should wear appropriate armor, use weapons, and have some other special item, but that is it. I was even thinking that their divine nature makes magic items that are not artifacts fail to work for them.

I think that Epic Spellcasting could be handled more as a hand-wave if you like. I think that is basically what assigning levels to the spells does. Perhaps gaining SDAs should require some level of Epic Spellcasting research to get them - they are on par with that power level.

Good luck,
ROB
Tequila_Sunrise
07-24-07, 04:06 PM I don't like the idea of no-fail on a 1, simply because one of the major dangers to epic characters is knowing that they can fail on a 1. Usually that is all they fail on since it is so hard to increase DCs, compared to saves. Full HP would be easy enough, it makes things last longer - do you do that for opponents as well?
Hm, I've never thought of natural 1s as a major danger. At epic I think of most saves as yawn-fests, but maybe that's just me. I like the idea of removing the danger of natural 1s for epic characters from a practical standpoint also: if a character can fail a save on a natural 1, they're going to be killed eventually even if they are ageless. Some plague, poison, random mudslide or whatnot will happen during the course of their lives and they'll roll that natural 1. I like the idea of an ageless character being truly ageless, but meh, whatever. And yes, monsters would get full HP per HD too.

RE: Deific, the natural armor bonus to deities only comes if you have 20 Outsider HD, in other words "natural" deities. Ascended mortals do not gain the 20 HD, and don't gain a natural armor bonus.
In my scheme, deities do not have "natural" outsider HD. In effect, levels 41-60 replace those HD. Anyway, I just feel that the natural and deflection boosts to AC that deities get according to DDG interrupts the natural flow of power progression.

I do find the growth to deific to be missing, and would like a way to add the abilities in. I think your natural abilities works for that. Deflecttion bonus is based on CHA for anyone with DvR 0 or higher, so that takes care of the ring. I was thinking that the stat bonuses that deties have - some of those could be enhancement bonuses, which would explain why they don't tend to wear ability enhancing items. Add Resistance bonus to saves based on CHA as well, and you will eliminate the need for a lot of items. Gods should wear appropriate armor, use weapons, and have some other special item, but that is it. I was even thinking that their divine nature makes magic items that are not artifacts fail to work for them.
I'm glad you like the natural bonuses/abilities idea, but I will most likely be basing the bonuses and abilities on character level rather than Cha. Most bonuses, for example, would be equal to 1/4 character level.

I think that Epic Spellcasting could be handled more as a hand-wave if you like. I think that is basically what assigning levels to the spells does. Perhaps gaining SDAs should require some level of Epic Spellcasting research to get them - they are on par with that power level.
I'm a bit confused as to what you're getting at here, but thanks for all the input Rob!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tequila_Sunrise 07-24-07, 02:35 AM	Hey folks, this is going to be long, so get a cup o’ coffee before you start in. I’m hoping that I can get some creative inspiration for some epic- and deific- level mechanics. I have limited experience with epic games (I’ve only run one myself, using ELH), and haven’t even considered running a deific game. Nevertheless, it is fun to consider how the rules would work in my world if the game ever got that insane [again]. What I need inspiration for is the mechanics of my level schematics: levels 1-20 are the mortal levels. Though a campaign played in this range may be “epic” in tone, it is not epic is scope. A non-epic game is limited to a single world, at most. Characters of these levels may be super-humanly powerful, but they are still 100% mortal. No new mechanics needed. Levels 21-40 are truly epic; characters of these levels are not only super-humanly powerful, but they are also ageless, literally and metaphorically. They are somewhere in between mortal and deific, and are likely to be adventuring throughout the various planes of existence. New mechanics needed. I’m considering granting these characters full hp per HD, no auto failures on natural 1s, improved movement and/or immunity to all insta-KO effects to reflect their power and general epic-ness. I think “natural bonuses and powers” (see below) would also be appropriate for epic levels. Levels 41-60 are deific; characters actually become gods and goddesses. They become truly immortal, only able to be permanently killed by another deity. Haven’t quite decided where, or if, these characters would adventure. New mechanics needed. I do not want to simply mimic d&d’s standard deity stats, as I find many of them rather crude. For example, DR/magic or epic is fine but natural armor bonuses based on divine rank, no. I like, in theory at least, salient divine abilities, natural divine spells and most of the non-combat oriented abilities described in DDG. “Natural Bonuses and Powers”: A poster on Enworld.org once brought up the idea of epic characters gaining natural bonuses and powers of all types to replace their magic items. For example, an epic character might have a “natural” deflection bonus to AC, making his ring of deflection obsolete. As a character gains more epic levels, he would gain more and better natural bonuses and powers. I personally like this idea, as I think characters should depend less and less on their items as they progress, rather than more and more. A note on my game design philosophy: I like mechanics to be simple, consistent and balanced. Regarding epic rules, my biggest change has been to remove the monstrosity that is Epic Spellcasting and continue with spells as per levels 1-20 (an epic wizard automatically gets a new spell level at each odd level after 20). After all, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I treat other class abilities similarly: ability potency increases as normal, but I don’t increase uses per day after 20th. So basically, I’m looking for opinions and ideas on my epic and deific mechanics. Thanks in advance, TS
rob_douglas 07-24-07, 10:58 AM	Some quick thoughts. I like your level breakdown, I am using something similar. Demigodhood could arise anywhere from 30-40th level, but there is something nice about using 40. I don't like the idea of no-fail on a 1, simply because one of the major dangers to epic characters is knowing that they can fail on a 1. Usually that is all they fail on since it is so hard to increase DCs, compared to saves. Full HP would be easy enough, it makes things last longer - do you do that for opponents as well? RE: Deific, the natural armor bonus to deities only comes if you have 20 Outsider HD, in other words "natural" deities. Ascended mortals do not gain the 20 HD, and don't gain a natural armor bonus. I do find the growth to deific to be missing, and would like a way to add the abilities in. I think your natural abilities works for that. Deflecttion bonus is based on CHA for anyone with DvR 0 or higher, so that takes care of the ring. I was thinking that the stat bonuses that deties have - some of those could be enhancement bonuses, which would explain why they don't tend to wear ability enhancing items. Add Resistance bonus to saves based on CHA as well, and you will eliminate the need for a lot of items. Gods should wear appropriate armor, use weapons, and have some other special item, but that is it. I was even thinking that their divine nature makes magic items that are not artifacts fail to work for them. I think that Epic Spellcasting could be handled more as a hand-wave if you like. I think that is basically what assigning levels to the spells does. Perhaps gaining SDAs should require some level of Epic Spellcasting research to get them - they are on par with that power level. Good luck, ROB
Tequila_Sunrise 07-24-07, 04:06 PM	I don't like the idea of no-fail on a 1, simply because one of the major dangers to epic characters is knowing that they can fail on a 1. Usually that is all they fail on since it is so hard to increase DCs, compared to saves. Full HP would be easy enough, it makes things last longer - do you do that for opponents as well? Hm, I've never thought of natural 1s as a major danger. At epic I think of most saves as yawn-fests, but maybe that's just me. I like the idea of removing the danger of natural 1s for epic characters from a practical standpoint also: if a character can fail a save on a natural 1, they're going to be killed eventually even if they are ageless. Some plague, poison, random mudslide or whatnot will happen during the course of their lives and they'll roll that natural 1. I like the idea of an ageless character being truly ageless, but meh, whatever. And yes, monsters would get full HP per HD too. RE: Deific, the natural armor bonus to deities only comes if you have 20 Outsider HD, in other words "natural" deities. Ascended mortals do not gain the 20 HD, and don't gain a natural armor bonus. In my scheme, deities do not have "natural" outsider HD. In effect, levels 41-60 replace those HD. Anyway, I just feel that the natural and deflection boosts to AC that deities get according to DDG interrupts the natural flow of power progression. I do find the growth to deific to be missing, and would like a way to add the abilities in. I think your natural abilities works for that. Deflecttion bonus is based on CHA for anyone with DvR 0 or higher, so that takes care of the ring. I was thinking that the stat bonuses that deties have - some of those could be enhancement bonuses, which would explain why they don't tend to wear ability enhancing items. Add Resistance bonus to saves based on CHA as well, and you will eliminate the need for a lot of items. Gods should wear appropriate armor, use weapons, and have some other special item, but that is it. I was even thinking that their divine nature makes magic items that are not artifacts fail to work for them. I'm glad you like the natural bonuses/abilities idea, but I will most likely be basing the bonuses and abilities on character level rather than Cha. Most bonuses, for example, would be equal to 1/4 character level. I think that Epic Spellcasting could be handled more as a hand-wave if you like. I think that is basically what assigning levels to the spells does. Perhaps gaining SDAs should require some level of Epic Spellcasting research to get them - they are on par with that power level. I'm a bit confused as to what you're getting at here, but thanks for all the input Rob!