| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| frodojoe07-04-07, 08:25 PM | hello my name is joe. i was looking through the epic lvl handbook and i was looking at the spells. and i saw the Vengeful Gaze of God spell and i saw that it requires a spellcraft DC of 419. well we(being me and my friends) were wondering how to possibly cast this spell. the only thing that we could come up with is that there would need to be several gods to cast it. please let us know thank you joe |
| SokenzanMarauder07-04-07, 08:37 PM | As far as I'm concerned it's something just to showcase the power of epic spells (it does it rather poorly in my opinion) and it's not something to be cast. Though it is possible to cast you'd need many VERY high level people to do so. -Gene |
| Kihon07-04-07, 10:56 PM | I believe it is mentioned somewhere (don't quote me though) that it was developed, and cast once, by Ao - the god of Dragons. |
| dok07-05-07, 02:49 AM | Actually, using the Magic Item creation rules, a Wonderous Item that granted a +350 Competence bonus to Spellcraft would cost (350 x 350 x 10) 1.2 million gp, easily within the range of a 30th level PC. Remember, epic spellcasters probably have maximum ranks in Spellcraft, plus maximum ranks in Knowledge (and Kn:Arcana grants a synergy bonus every 20 ranks to Spellcraft), would have Skill Focus (+4) and Epic Skill Focus (+10), and the Rod of Epic Spellcasting (+10 Insight Bonus). Also don't forget that the Epic Seed Fortify can be used to create a huge bonus to Intelligence. |
| Witch07-05-07, 04:39 AM | Actually, using the Magic Item creation rules, a Wonderous Item that granted a +350 Competence bonus to Spellcraft would cost (350 x 350 x 10) 1.2 million gp, easily within the range of a 30th level PC. Which doesn't undo the huge experience cost required to develop it, though. I believe it is mentioned somewhere (don't quote me though) that it was developed, and cast once, by Ao - the god of Dragons. I haven't ever heard this before. Aside from that, Ao isn't a god of dragons. Io is. |
| Bernat07-05-07, 06:06 AM | Actually, using the Magic Item creation rules, a Wonderous Item that granted a +350 Competence bonus to Spellcraft would cost (350 x 350 x 10) 1.2 million gp, easily within the range of a 30th level PC. Price is (350 x 350 x 10 x 100gp): 122.500.000 gp ;) |
| Kihon07-05-07, 11:07 AM | Witch - sorry, bad typing. Io not Ao -- mistyped my vowels. But I thought I read it somewhere- perhaps it was on the boards and not in a book. Anyway I'm sure that I read that it was cast by the Dragon God once. |
| Sulacu07-05-07, 05:57 PM | Well, it really depends on how you... grow your character, right? Let's take a 30th level wizard. He'll have 33 ranks in Spellcraft and equally, 33 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), a must have. 25 ranks bestow double synergy, so +4 to spellcraft. Skill Focus (Spellcraft) +3, Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft) +10 and some major buffs in Intelligence bringing him up in the neighborhood of Int 40. Headband, Manuel of whatever its name is +5. All inherent bonuses stacked under Int. Of course the Epic Spellcasting feat... Yeah, you're right, it's hopeless. Best you can do is Spellcraft +60, +65 if you're lucky. And that is if you completely rape your character at early levels in order to make him as strong an epic caster as possible at 30th level. Pff, I say. I doubt you can get much over +100, if you also waste a lot of your money to buy objects to further boost that one skill. Compulsive gaming, I call it. Vengeful Gaze of God is a spell that reminds us that there's always some powergaming git out there who never has enough levels. x.x |
| frodojoe07-05-07, 06:55 PM | ya we were looking at the gods and Boccob the god of magic and knowledge a greater deity himself could not cast it and that is saying alot. we factored if you combined the poweres of boccob, corellon larethian, ehlona, fharlanghn, garl glittergold. if you combined all there spellcrafts and there getting 20's it would still take all of them. IT WOULD TAKE 3 GREATER DEITYS AND 2 INTERMEDIATE DEITYS TO DO IT. if you could some how max out the damage you could come close to killing Hades. |
| Grandmaster_Kane07-05-07, 07:54 PM | a maximized vgog... LMAO Yeah the only way you oculd actually cast this is if you started at level what? about 450? That would be a good epic campaign. Kill these planets before the sunsets or you lose lol |
| Tshern07-05-07, 08:06 PM | If I recall correctly, you have to be at least level 100 to cast it, because of the backlash damage. Am I right or am I wrong |
| Grandmaster_Kane07-05-07, 10:15 PM | If I recall correctly, you have to be at least level 100 to cast it, because of the backlash damage. Am I right or am I wrong It does 100d6 backlash (I think) so you would have to be at least 151 if you had max health and it did max damage to even survive it To actually cast it thou.... |
| User512707-05-07, 10:23 PM | I'm sure CharO can cast it. I mean seriously, things like inifinte to any skill check? = cast spell asap. |
| bluemage5507-05-07, 10:26 PM | There's a requirement for backlash damage. The maximum backlash damage on a spell is twice your HD. Thus, you need to be 100th level to cast the spell without modifications, as it has 200d6 backlash. |
| Loren Pechtel07-05-07, 10:39 PM | Well, it really depends on how you... grow your character, right? Let's take a 30th level wizard. He'll have 33 ranks in Spellcraft and equally, 33 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), a must have. 25 ranks bestow double synergy, so +4 to spellcraft. Skill Focus (Spellcraft) +3, Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft) +10 and some major buffs in Intelligence bringing him up in the neighborhood of Int 40. Headband, Manuel of whatever its name is +5. All inherent bonuses stacked under Int. Of course the Epic Spellcasting feat... The headband doesn't stack with the buffs. |
| frodojoe07-06-07, 12:32 AM | who is CharO??? |
| frodojoe07-06-07, 12:34 AM | and yes it is 200d6 backlash! that would make for a bad day. |
| frodojoe07-06-07, 12:38 AM | max dmg 1,830. if only! what if you had a bunch of spellcasters with the one main, of course he would die but if u can cast it you can kill a god so if you had the time to get this happen then it would so be worth it.......;) |
| Killane07-07-07, 02:45 PM | VgoG id a wretched spell. Completely useless. At that level, with the shear number of feats available, you van do many many times more damage with Imp Spell Cap feats and metamagic spells. (think polar ray, maximized and twined like 40 times) |
| Grandmaster_Kane07-07-07, 02:58 PM | Think Polar ray Empowered currupted Maximized then twinned like 40 times That is like 3 thousand damge lol |
| bluemage5507-07-07, 04:33 PM | *sigh* You can only apply most metamagic feats once per spell. |
| rob_douglas07-07-07, 06:09 PM | And besides - think Infinte Deflection, Refelect Arrows, and Exceptional deflection. Or Greater Spell Immunity Polar Ray. Or Immunity to Cold. Or Incorporealness. As I have said before - one use of VGoG could be to use it as a SLA for an epic creature. Still would have the backlash, likely would be a much lower CR creature, maybe 50-70. ROB |
| Aleolus07-08-07, 04:09 AM | Actually, I know a guy who has a character who can not only cast this spell, he can cast it several times per day, and survive! Let's not forget, in addition to the 305d6 it does to the target, it also does 200d6 to the caster! Yeah, this char is someone the guy has been playing for 15 years. 75th level human undead wizard, with Wish-bane, immune to magic, immune to psionics, pretty much immune to every form of damage you can be immune to. Also burned 60000XP on a Wish spell to get infinite spells per day. All of which he can do maximized, empowered, and quickened. |
| StrahdVonZarovich07-08-07, 04:31 AM | To cast it, you would need a good load of spellcasters, each caster contribuing or sacrifing a ninth-lvl spell slot or ven epic reduced the spellcraft dc by 10 or 20(I'm not sure been a while since I looked at my Epic-lvl Handbook). This is the keyfacotr I believe. |
| Witch07-08-07, 08:51 AM | Actually, I know a guy who has a character who can not only cast this spell, he can cast it several times per day, and survive! Let's not forget, in addition to the 305d6 it does to the target, it also does 200d6 to the caster! Yeah, this char is someone the guy has been playing for 15 years. 75th level human undead wizard, with Wish-bane, immune to magic, immune to psionics, pretty much immune to every form of damage you can be immune to. Also burned 60000XP on a Wish spell to get infinite spells per day. All of which he can do maximized, empowered, and quickened. The character you just named is severely houseruled and uses non-legit rules, such as the one that gives you infinite spells per day. |
| runestar07-08-07, 09:15 AM | If you increase the damage die to d12s, you should be able to shave off about 300 points off that spellcraft dc. This will likely go towards reducing the backlash damage so that it keeps within the cap limit though.:) |
| Avatar of Kokusho07-08-07, 09:39 AM | Actually, I know a guy who has a character who can not only cast this spell, he can cast it several times per day, and survive! Let's not forget, in addition to the 305d6 it does to the target, it also does 200d6 to the caster! Yeah, this char is someone the guy has been playing for 15 years. 75th level human undead wizard, with Wish-bane, immune to magic, immune to psionics, pretty much immune to every form of damage you can be immune to. Also burned 60000XP on a Wish spell to get infinite spells per day. All of which he can do maximized, empowered, and quickened. ..... Even for 60,000 XP, Wish can't get you infinite spells. That's insane. Bet he's not immune to having most of a mountain dropped on his head, though. |
| Ramaloke07-09-07, 01:47 AM | Fiendbinder's Bind Tormented Soul ability + Cosmic Descryer's Cosmic Connection ability (I think I am butchering the names of these abilities but Im too lazy to look em up) can do an infinite spellcraft check for one round, after which you die, but who cares? |
| AaronDireBear07-10-07, 11:22 PM | So a +100 Spellcraft would cost 5,000,000 to make (half market value of 10,000,000) and 110,000 XP? Problem is, SOMEONE has to be high enough level to make it so players cant just buy it, unless you allow them to make deals with the gods or have 100th level wizards running around. That, or you could reduce it by 10% by making it 30th level or higher wizard only (making the cost 4,500,000), then further stipulating that it requires certain high ranks of Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft to begin with, making it go down by a further 30% (3,150,000), but none of that changes the XP cost, just the Gold Piece cost, although I could be wrong about that....if it did reduce XP cost also, it would be reduced to 69,300, still a lot, even for 30th or even 40th level. Could a 40th level wizard find a way to use the XP (the soul) of other creatures, or take it from a different magic item? Could he reduce himself to about a 38th level wizard by using that much XP, or is he pretty much limited to stuff that costs 40,000 or less? Any thoughts? |
| askala307-11-07, 01:26 AM | Actually, I know a guy who has a character who can not only cast this spell, he can cast it several times per day, and survive! … 75th level human undead wizard, with Wish-bane, immune to magic, immune to psionics, pretty much immune to every form of damage you can be immune to. Also burned 60000XP on a Wish spell to get infinite spells per day. All of which he can do maximized, empowered, and quickened. You know, nothing you said suggests he can actually cast the spell. In fact, by what you have posted I think the character cannot spell successfully. The caster cannot somehow avoid or make him or her self immune to backlash damage.Witch and Avatar of Kokusho have valid points as well… |
| AaronDireBear07-11-07, 03:34 AM | If he gets leadership, epic leadership, and legendary commander he can get enough guys to use as ritual patsies. Only really helpful for stuff with REALLY long durations. |
| Avatar of Kokusho07-14-07, 08:22 AM | You can give yourself backlash resistance with the Netherese Arcanist PrC, but no way will it allow anyone but the highest-level caster with a REALLY high Con to survive the casting of VGoG...let alone do it more than once in succession. |
| frodojoe07-14-07, 12:41 PM | one way to build up enough XP is to have an artificer compleatly tear apart a shitload of magic items and use that xp pool |
| Ramaloke07-14-07, 02:31 PM | You can give yourself backlash resistance with the Netherese Arcanist PrC, but no way will it allow anyone but the highest-level caster with a REALLY high Con to survive the casting of VGoG...let alone do it more than once in succession. Cant you also buff that resistance with epic spells? |
| bluemage5507-14-07, 04:23 PM | You can give yourself backlash resistance with the Netherese Arcanist PrC, but no way will it allow anyone but the highest-level caster with a REALLY high Con to survive the casting of VGoG...let alone do it more than once in succession. Again, it doesn't matter whether you can survive the backlash damage or not. The fact is, you cannot cast the spell unless you have at least 100 HD. one way to build up enough XP is to have an artificer compleatly tear apart a shitload of magic items and use that xp pool You can only use your craft reserve for crafting, not for the XP costs of spells and epic spell research. Cant you also buff that resistance with epic spells? Kind of. You could give yourself a very high Con score and/or many temporary hit points. Again, you need to have 100 HD regardless of whether or not you plan to survive the casting. |
| Avatar of Kokusho07-14-07, 11:55 PM | You are correct as usual, bluemage55. :) Backlash 200d6 as a mitigating factor can't be used unless you have 100HD, it's right in the rules. Nothing stops you from attempting to develop another version with less backlash...but that gives the problem of an increase to Spellcraft DC. |
| Killane07-15-07, 12:41 AM | *sigh* You can only apply most metamagic feats once per spell. Oops.... Ive used variants that allow metamagic stack for so long that I forget this sometimes. See Imortalès Handbook (Upper_Krust) for example. |
| Belecrex07-15-07, 01:57 AM | There's atleast one being that is powerful enough to cast it, whoever created it. |
| runestar07-15-07, 02:30 AM | Improved gaze of god...:D Vengeful Gaze Of God Transmutation Spellcraft DC: 66 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 12,000 ft. Target: One creature, or up to a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter in line of sight Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude half Spell Resistance: Yes To Develop: 594,000 gp; 12 days; 23,760 XP. Seed: destroy (DC 29). Factor: increase damage to 50d6 (+60 DC), increase damage die to d20 (+40), 1-action casting time (+20 DC), all variables maximized (+28DC). Mitigating factor: 60d6 backlash (-60 DC), burn 5100xp during casting (-51 DC). The target of this spell is subject to 1000 points of damage (or half of that if a Fortitude save succeeds). If the target is reduced to -10 hit points or less (or a construct, object, or undead is reduced to 0 hit points), it is utterly destroyed as if disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. The caster is likewise dealt 60d6 points of damage |
| Aleolus07-15-07, 03:30 AM | Only problem with that is, as I remember it, the standard Vengeful Gaze of God spell deals 305d6 damage. Why in the world would putting it to 50d6 be an improvement? Now, upping the die to d20s, that would be an improvement, and a dramatic one. But putting it to only 50d, instead of 305? Now, dropping the backlash to 60d6 is a marvelous idea. Keep that. |
| runestar07-15-07, 04:27 AM | Only problem with that is, as I remember it, the standard Vengeful Gaze of God spell deals 305d6 damage. Why in the world would putting it to 50d6 be an improvement? Now, upping the die to d20s, that would be an improvement, and a dramatic one. But putting it to only 50d, instead of 305? Well, the average damage dealt for 305d6 is roughly 1068 damage. My goal was to have a new version which roughly did the same amount of damage, but had a much lower dc which a typical spellcaster could hope to attain. Being able to up the damage die from d6 to d20 was a no-brainer, the maximize seed from champions of ruin was a godsend as well, basically doubling the damage dealt by the spell. Backlash was put at 60d6 so that a lv30 wizard could attempt to cast it. The special xp cost (5100xp) was because a dc of 67 would result in a research time of 12.06 days, which we must unfortunately round up to 13 days. Just a little idiosyncrasy on my part.:embarrass After that, you still have a lot of room for improving it. You can add a new target within 300ft for +10dc or improve the damage some more (each +2dc adds 20 damage). So if you wanted to boost the final dc to 319, you could have it deal over 4000 damage (after factoring in higher backlash damage/xp expenditure). The sky's the limit.:) |
| Esgarblackpox07-15-07, 04:30 AM | Only problem with that is, as I remember it, the standard Vengeful Gaze of God spell deals 305d6 damage. Why in the world would putting it to 50d6 be an improvement? Now, upping the die to d20s, that would be an improvement, and a dramatic one. But putting it to only 50d, instead of 305? Now, dropping the backlash to 60d6 is a marvelous idea. Keep that. The improvement is that it now no longer takes 5 gods working in concert to cast. |
| Starmage2107-15-07, 11:48 AM | most greater dieties could cast it even with a +1 on their spellcraft check. They always roll 20s, which for standard D&D without the +20 and roll again skill check variant, means they will always succeed no matter the DC. |
| Witch07-15-07, 11:56 AM | most greater dieties could cast it even with a +1 on their spellcraft check. They always roll 20s, which for standard D&D without the +20 and roll again skill check variant, means they will always succeed no matter the DC. Ehm, no. For one, they don't roll 20s for critical success purposes -they still need to roll for that purpose. Secondly, there're no critical successes on skill checks. |
| Starmage2107-15-07, 03:29 PM | Ehm, no. For one, they don't roll 20s for critical success purposes -they still need to roll for that purpose. Secondly, there're no critical successes on skill checks. Always Maximize Roll: Greater deities (rank 16–20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there. A d20 should still be rolled and used to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already. Seems pretty clear to me, unless youre houseruling it. Drop a 20 on a skill check, it is always a success, and a 1 is always a failure; unless you are using the extended D20 rolls as presented as a variant in the ELH. |
| Witch07-15-07, 03:45 PM | Ehm... what the hell are you saying? Your statement proves the opposite exactly. You assume a 20 was rolled and calculate succes and failure from there. Whether this is automatic success or not for saves and attack rolls is up to discussion - but where exactly do you see that a skill check is automatically succeeded upon? |
| Aluroon07-15-07, 05:25 PM | First, you forgot rule one of quoting. Thou shall not quote rules thou does not understand. The Automatic 20 was basically giving them the highest result possible on saves/skill checks/attacks/ect. You will note though it says take a 20 and figure success or failure from there. Thats important, and is something your completely ignoring. No where does it say its an autosuccess, and it still says to roll to check if its a natural 20 or just a 20. The key word your looking for that is not including in the auto 20 is the word natural. That said, even if it was included in there, your still wrong, because while a natural 20 on an attack or save is an auto success a natural 20 on skill checks is not an Auto pass. For gods sake read our damn books before your run your damn mouths people. On a side note, nice revision of the spell, though the Maximize factor on epic spells is hotly contested. Far more effective overall. |
| Starmage2107-15-07, 07:57 PM | First, you forgot rule one of quoting. Thou shall not quote rules thou does not understand. The Automatic 20 was basically giving them the highest result possible on saves/skill checks/attacks/ect. You will note though it says take a 20 and figure success or failure from there. Thats important, and is something your completely ignoring. No where does it say its an autosuccess, and it still says to roll to check if its a natural 20 or just a 20. The key word your looking for that is not including in the auto 20 is the word natural. That said, even if it was included in there, your still wrong, because while a natural 20 on an attack or save is an auto success a natural 20 on skill checks is not an Auto pass. For gods sake read our damn books before your run your damn mouths people. On a side note, nice revision of the spell, though the Maximize factor on epic spells is hotly contested. Far more effective overall. The second rule is reading the quote entirely. You'd notice that the example in the same quote supports my argument. If a greater diety brings the vorpal weapon, which otherwise requires a "natural" 20 on the attack roll, youre doomed. |
| Witch07-15-07, 08:31 PM | That still doesn't state anything about skill checks. And ofcourse, nothing about natural 20s is stated. However, I'll grant you that about this aspect, there's merit in your point. There's none whatsoever in the skill aspect. |
| dndfencer07-15-07, 09:24 PM | umm what exactly does vengeful gaze of god do? I don't have epic hand book but it sounds fun |
| Aleolus07-16-07, 01:39 PM | Vengeful Gaze of God requires a spellcraft check with a DC 348, I believe. If successful, it deals 305d6 damage to the target, and 200d6 to you. |
| Aleolus07-16-07, 01:45 PM | Vengeful Gaze of God requires a spellcraft check with a DC 348, I believe. If successful, it deals 305d6 damage to the target, and 200d6 to you. |
| rob_douglas07-16-07, 06:45 PM | Starmage - the section you are quoting has been dealt with in the FAQ. You assume a resulting roll of 20, but not the rule side effects of a natural 20, hence the need to actually roll to see if it is a critical threat (or if the vorpal effect should be in play). If the target has AC 100, and a deity has +79 to hit, the assumed 20 does not hit since that only gives a result of 99. He still has to roll a natural 20 to get the hit. See the Deities and Demigods FAQ, page 2: Does the always maximize roll ability of greater deities mean that these beings always receive a natural 20 on every attack and saving throw roll? If so, doesn’t that mean that a greater deity will always hit on an attack, will always threaten a critical hit, and will always make its saving throw? If this is the case, why doesn’t Deities and Demigods specifically state under the entry for each individual greater deity that the deity always hits, always threatens a critical hit, and always makes its save, much as these entries say that the deity always deals a certain amount damage on a successful attack due to its maximize roll ability? Deities and Demigods does not say greater deities always hit, always threaten a critical hit, and always make their saving throws because they don’t always hit, don’t always threaten a critical hit, and don’t always make their saving throws. The description of the always maximize roll ability on page 26 of Deities and Demigods tells you to roll a die when a deity attacks. The die roll must indicate a threat before the deity can deal a critical hit. (No matter what that die roll is, you still use a value of 20 for the value of the die roll when determining what Armor Class the attack hits.) Note that the deity also maximizes its confirmation roll when it achieves a threat, so it is virtually assured of confirming the critical hit. In the very rare case that a maximized attack roll would not be sufficient for a hit, the deity still hits if he or she rolls a natural 20 for his attack roll. As Deities and Demigods notes in the section on attacks on page 26, no deity automatically misses on a roll of a natural 1, so a greater deity does not automatically miss if he or she rolls a natural 1 on his or her attack roll. Likewise, a greater deity does not get a natural 20 and an automatic success on any saving throw, but it is never at risk of automatically failing on a roll of a natural 1. As with attacks, if a die result of 20 is not sufficient for a successful saving throw, a greater deity still has a chance to roll a die and automatically succeed with a natural 20. Also, as was stated, there is no auto-success or critical failure when it comes to skill checks, only attacks and saves. There are optional rules to override this default behavior though. ROB |
| Starmage2107-16-07, 10:07 PM | Starmage - the section you are quoting has been dealt with in the FAQ. You assume a resulting roll of 20, but not the rule side effects of a natural 20, hence the need to actually roll to see if it is a critical threat (or if the vorpal effect should be in play). If the target has AC 100, and a deity has +79 to hit, the assumed 20 does not hit since that only gives a result of 99. He still has to roll a natural 20 to get the hit. See the Deities and Demigods FAQ, page 2: Also, as was stated, there is no auto-success or critical failure when it comes to skill checks, only attacks and saves. There are optional rules to override this default behavior though. ROB Gah! Pwned by the FAQ |
| User512707-20-07, 12:32 PM | You can only use your craft reserve for crafting, not for the XP costs of spells and epic spell research. While true, you can create magic items that let you burn XP out of the item for use in spells. I forget the name of the rod that does it atm (away from books), but in a round about way he could burn magic items into a magic item that would then be burned to cast the spell. |
| Avatar of Kokusho07-20-07, 05:23 PM | I believe that's called the Rod of Excellent Magic. |
| User512707-20-07, 09:14 PM | thats the one. heh... |
| ihatenuma07-22-07, 01:59 AM | During epic spell creation, one option allows you to increase the damage die by one step. The die progression goes something like this: D3, D4, D6, D8, D10, D12, D20, D100. If you increase the damage die of say, ruin, to a d100, you are now dealing 20d100 damage, or 1000 damage on average, for a full round action and 2,000 xp. Spellcraft dc 77, but at least that's attainable. The easiest way to abuse vengeful gaze of god is simply to create a cheesey version of it with no backlash and a even more absurd spellcraft dc (619) and simply keep rolling until you get a twenty on both the create and cast checks. Combine with method above for a horrid spell with spellcraft dc of 669 and average damage of 15250. It deals 305d100 damage, for those of you that are math challanged. If I somehow misquoted a rule, your DM doesn'e need to know that.:devil: |
| runestar07-22-07, 02:13 AM | During epic spell creation, one option allows you to increase the damage die by one step. The die progression goes something like this: D3, D4, D6, D8, D10, D12, D20, D100. I believe it is explicitly stated that the cap on this is d20, the max I scaled the damage die to in my version.:) To be honest, I am not sure if the next step from d12 really is d20 (I was following the progression for unarmed strike damage for the 3.0 monk, the best I could find). It seems very drastic a jump, but until there is other conclusive evidence on a better alternative (should I use the INA table? 1d12 --> 3d6?), I will stick with it. |
| rob_douglas07-22-07, 02:44 AM | You did misquote ihatenuma - you don't get an autosuccess on a skill check with a 20, and the damage die caps at d20. ROB |
| Witch07-22-07, 08:39 AM | I'd personally be rather doubtful of allowing a step to a d20 (if I would, I'd require quadruple the cost of increasing from d10 to d12, likely), and wouldn't allow changing to a d100 at all. |
| runestar07-22-07, 10:09 AM | Well, if you have any suggestions on rolling a d14 or d18 (save for using computer programs), I am all ears...;) |
| BillTheManiac07-22-07, 12:23 PM | I can roll a d15. (d6 mod 3-1)*5-d10 mod 5 Reroll 15s. d18=(d6 mod 3-1)*6+d6. I hope you have a mouth left now so you don't starve to death. |
| Starmage2107-22-07, 01:14 PM | I'd personally be rather doubtful of allowing a step to a d20 (if I would, I'd require quadruple the cost of increasing from d10 to d12, likely), and wouldn't allow changing to a d100 at all. Its not that big of an increase on the average damage. D4 to D6 is +1(2.5-3.5), D6 to D8 is +1(3.5-4.5), D8 to D10 is +1(4.5-5.5), D10 to D12 is +1(5.5-6.5), and D12 to D20 is +4(6.5-10.5). The biggest factor in the D12 to D20 jump is the variance. Damage with D20s are a whole lot less predictable than D12s. You have a much greater chance of rolling damage thats consdered low even for D12s than with the D12s themselves. |
| ihatenuma07-22-07, 10:28 PM | Foiled by my own bad eyesight... Well, 92d20 damage is, on average, 5 more points of damage than 305d6, and and according to the rules has a lot lower spellcraft check. |
| runestar07-22-07, 11:10 PM | I can roll a d15. (d6 mod 3-1)*5-d10 mod 5 Reroll 15s. d18=(d6 mod 3-1)*6+d6. I hope you have a mouth left now so you don't starve to death. I was hoping for something a lot more straightforward, like how 1d16 is 3d6 - 2, or 1d14 is 1d12 + 1d3 - 1. :P |
| rob_douglas07-23-07, 11:54 AM | Well, 92d20 damage is, on average, 5 more points of damage than 305d6, and and according to the rules has a lot lower spellcraft check. 92*10.5 = 966 305*3.5 = 1067.5 so the 305d6 is more than 100 more average damage. 102d20 is more damage, but that is still not a big cost difference. Yeah, bumping to d20 is too cheap if you don't include the intermediate values, considering it adds 4 times as much damage as bumping from d10->d12. Note that the average damage threshhold for improving number of dice vs type of dice is at about 56 dice, if you don't jump d12->d20. 55d6 avg = 192.5, cost = +70DC 56d6 avg = 196, cost = +72DC 60d6 avg = 210, cost = +80DC 20d20 avg = 210, cost = +70DC (+40 if you ignore d14-d18) The rules do not specifically say to ignore d14-d18, and I didn't see any examples of using d20 damage (I thought there was one), so we can't tell what they wanted to happen to the cost. I was hoping for something a lot more straightforward, like how 1d16 is 3d6 - 2, or 1d14 is 1d12 + 1d3 - 1. :P The problem with those formula is that they are non-linear. 3d6-2 is more likely to get a middle range number than it is to get 16. d14 = d8 reroll 8's, and d6 (on 4-6, add 7 to the d8). d16 = d8 and d6 (on 4-6, add 8 to the d8). d18 may as well be d20 reroll 19-20, or as d14 with d10s, reroll 0s, and add 9. ROB |
| elondir07-23-07, 03:51 PM | There's a spell modifier that lets you do a seed's damage per level; think it's in an FR book somewhere. It adds +20 to the check. So applying it to ruin would do 20d6 damage per caster level if I read it correctly. Cast at level 30 it would do 600d6 damage with a DC of 47. IIRC. |
| Starmage2107-23-07, 03:58 PM | There's a spell modifier that lets you do a seed's damage per level; think it's in an FR book somewhere. It adds +20 to the check. So applying it to ruin would do 20d6 damage per caster level if I read it correctly. Cast at level 30 it would do 600d6 damage with a DC of 47. IIRC. thats a custom seed somewhere on these boards, and it emanates the same school of magic as the Sword of True Strike, and the Gloves of Wraithstrike: Strong Brokennation |
| rob_douglas07-23-07, 10:11 PM | I think actually it comes from Lost Empires of Faerun, but I agree with the brokenness aura - I detect the same, though I might find it overwhelming. :) ROB |
| runestar07-23-07, 11:00 PM | There's a spell modifier that lets you do a seed's damage per level; think it's in an FR book somewhere. It adds +20 to the check. So applying it to ruin would do 20d6 damage per caster level if I read it correctly. Cast at level 30 it would do 600d6 damage with a DC of 47. IIRC. Not quite. The seed simply lets your epic spell's effect scale with caster lv, though I am not sure how it exactly works either. It is from champions of ruin, if you wish to check it up.:) |
| BigGus08-19-07, 09:18 PM | I'd personally be rather doubtful of allowing a step to a d20 (if I would, I'd require quadruple the cost of increasing from d10 to d12, likely), and wouldn't allow changing to a d100 at all. Totally agree. I've always houseruled that the maximum damage die is d12; damage just gets too high otherwise. And if you were to allow it, the DC increase from d12 should indeed be +40 (IMHO). And d100 is just insane. |
| Lionhearted08-19-07, 09:47 PM | most useless way to use VGoG, Killing the Tarrasque |
| BigGus08-20-07, 09:30 AM | Well, if you have any suggestions on rolling a d14 or d18 (save for using computer programs), I am all ears...;) You can actually roll a d16 or d18. It's a bit like rolling percentile dice. d16: roll 1d4-1, then multiply by 4. Then roll 1d4 and add it on. Unlike rolling 3d6-2, this actually gives equal chances of getting each result. d18: roll 1d3-1, then multiply by 6. Then roll 1d6 and add it on. d14 is more difficult; the nearest I can come up with is to use the d16 method above and reroll results of 15 or 16. If you had a lot of dice to roll, the easiest way to do it would be to have several dice each of two different colours, and make one colour the first (multiplied) number, and the other colour the second number in each case. Hope that makes sense. |
| BigGus08-20-07, 10:12 AM | The lowest-level (non-deity) character I can make who can cast VGoG as written (DC419) is 126. Build as follows: Skills: spellcraft 129 ranks, knowledge (arcana) 129 ranks for synergy bonus of +14 Feats: craft wondrous item, skill focus: spellcraft (+3), magical aptitude (+2 spellcraft/ use magic device) Epic Feats: epic spellcasting, craft epic wondrous item, epic skill focus: spellcraft (+10), great intelligence (or whichever) x67 Items: spellcraft (competence) +107 (11 449 000 GP), spellcraft (one each of luck, insight, and sacred or profane) +21 (11 025 000 GP each), intelligence (enhancement) +34 (11 560 000 GP) Character: intelligence 18 at level 1; +5 inherent bonus; 31 ability increases all on intelligence Total intelligence: 18+5+31+67+34=155 for +72 bonus Total spellcraft: 129 ranks +14 synergy +15 feats +72 intelligence +170 items = 400. There. Now they only need to roll a 19 on their spellcraft check, and they can cast it... (The only way I can see that this could be made lower is if there are non-PHB feats which increase spellcraft, but that would only reduce the minimum level by 1 or 2). But having said all that, VGoG is a stupid spell anyway. Increasing the damage die to d20 gives 2992 damage for the same DC; even just increasing it to d12 gives 1885 damage, compared to the "mere" 1067 the ELH version gives. (To anyone who thinks the increase from d12 to d20 doesn't make much difference, please note the 1107 increase in damage for the same DC). And even with a non-epic spell, Chain Lightning enhanced 11 times and intensified does 1512 damage to the primary target and 756 to 20 secondary targets at level 126. Three or four of those should be enough to send that army of prismatic great wyrms packing... |