Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Frozen_Flame 03-29-08, 07:21 AM	My DM is giving me ECL 45, and I'm thinking of adding the paragon template to my character...
NoldorForce 03-29-08, 12:19 PM	It's been pegged at anywhere between +16 and +20 (?) on these boards. Discuss it with your DM to get a more fine determination. (Essentially, with the multitude of opinions around here the best you'll be able to get is a suggested range to work with. Things might be different if there were some official consensus...)
Tshern 03-29-08, 12:39 PM	Actually, it's been put between 12 and 15 as well. 20, however, is definitely too much. I suppose 15 is the most common consensus.
ZiggZagg 03-29-08, 02:41 PM	I think our group used 11 or 12 last time after looking at the Epic Level Handbook. The table with all the CR's of creatures also has ECL on there, and I think just used that to determine it.
Bauglir 04-05-08, 12:44 PM	Yeah, the Paragon Mind Flayer is ECL 26, the normal Mind Flayer is ECL 15, so it'd be a +11 Adjustment.
Nezkrul 04-08-08, 04:14 PM	LA =/= CR increase for templates the LA should be +15 to +18.
Phaenix 04-08-08, 04:31 PM	LA =/= CR increase for templates the LA should be +15 to +18. Actually, Bauglir has it right. The table lists both CR AND ECL, as he said. A Mind flayer has an ECL of 15 (8 HD + 7 LA). A Paragon Mind Flayer, according to the ELH, has an ECL of 26 (It's CR is 23, totally different). Subtraction suggests that the Paragon template has an LA of +11.
The_Black_Hand 04-08-08, 09:46 PM	+15 all the way to +20. This is a pure cheese template at any rate. The Quasi-Diety template is around +6, just to give you an Idea. It grants a DvR of 0 as well.
Senka 04-10-08, 06:37 AM	Which Quasi-Deity template? The only quasi-deities I know of are creature that just have 0 DvR, as outlined in Deities and Demigods.
rob_douglas 04-11-08, 09:44 AM	Yeah, the Paragon Mind Flayer is ECL 26, the normal Mind Flayer is ECL 15, so it'd be a +11 Adjustment. Note that that is a 3.0 Mind Flayer, which had an ECL of 11, so it was actually +15. They never redid that table based on the conversion to 3.5. The 3.5 Mind flayer got bumped up in ECL. They didn't use the LA thing until Savage Species came out officially. Before that, they just came up with ECLs from which you could derive an LA - but sometimes they gave things a negative LA - look at the Winterwight. +15 is a fair LA to start with. Remember, the purpose of LA is to make sure the "monster" player doesn't outshine the other players at the table and get more spotlight time. If you see this happening in your game, the LA needs to be increased. If you see the other problem - no usefulness for your character, then the LA needs to go down. But I support +15 because it matches the skills increases, and more than matches the increase in combat ability and saves, as well as AC. ROB
The_Black_Hand 04-11-08, 11:45 AM	Which Quasi-Deity template? The only quasi-deities I know of are creature that just have 0 DvR, as outlined in Deities and Demigods. Well if its the only one you know about... Yes, this is the template I am talking about. Pretty much Quasi-Diety gives a divine rank of 0. (hooray you can kill a god now, this is if you play by the "Only Gods can kill Gods" rule). You gain a deflection bonus to your AC equal to your Charisma modifier. You no longer physically age. You can't die unless another god tries to kill you, very likely unless you are facing another Quasi-Diety. (Dicefreaks used a system to determine how likly it was for a god to kill another god, basically they made Divine Rank Checks agains each other. A DvR 0 would have +0 to his die roll, Demi-Gods have a +4, Lesser +8, Intermediate +12, Greater +16, Over-Power (N/A), will always win if it wants to.) There are a couple of other things too, nothing truely major.
betrayor 04-11-08, 12:51 PM	Slightly off topic, but i have seen around the boards that the "quasi-deity" template is la 6. Does this come from a wotc source? Or is it a board consesus?
The_Black_Hand 04-11-08, 07:31 PM	Slightly off topic, but i have seen around the boards that the "quasi-deity" template is la 6. Does this come from a wotc source? Or is it a board consesus? LA +6 was originaly what Dicefreaks put it at, I believe they also originally put the Paragon Template at +15. The boards have pretty much gone with what DF said. So short answer would be board consesus.
Bauglir 04-11-08, 10:34 PM	Note that that is a 3.0 Mind Flayer, which had an ECL of 11, so it was actually +15. They never redid that table based on the conversion to 3.5. The 3.5 Mind flayer got bumped up in ECL. They didn't use the LA thing until Savage Species came out officially. Before that, they just came up with ECLs from which you could derive an LA - but sometimes they gave things a negative LA - look at the Winterwight. +15 is a fair LA to start with. Remember, the purpose of LA is to make sure the "monster" player doesn't outshine the other players at the table and get more spotlight time. If you see this happening in your game, the LA needs to be increased. If you see the other problem - no usefulness for your character, then the LA needs to go down. But I support +15 because it matches the skills increases, and more than matches the increase in combat ability and saves, as well as AC. Ohhhhh. I didn't know about the Mind Flayer ECL change. Guess I shoulda thought of that. Oh, well. So +15 it is. And I agree wholeheartedly on that being fair, considering the ridiculous stuff it gives. Although, to nitpick, the Winterwight seems to have a +0 LA.
Beckettvampire 04-15-08, 12:50 PM	The Template does however outshine everyone else though regardless of (epic) level. We had a Human Paragon Wizard that was able to add rediculous mitigating factors to Epic spells because as long as he didn't actually die when casting them, his fast healing would have him back to max H.P. in a few rounds. He never once failed a save. We where around level 25, and he could easily make 50+, maybe even 70+ saves. Not to mention a few of the abilities and rules of the template don't very well translate into 3.5. Also, while every one else had to burn a lot of their money on gear, spend spells, or whatever to get stats to even do many epic things, he had no worry, instead buying gear that no one else could reasonably afford to make himself even more immune to nearly any threat. He had the highest A.C. of any character without casting epic spells or powerful magic items, like twice the tank.
rob_douglas 04-15-08, 04:04 PM	Um - something seems off there. IF you were 25th level, then as a paragon human wizard, he should have been 10th level - which precludes epic spells. If he is 21st level wizard, then he is ECL 36 - which should definitely outshine all the 25th level characters. Compare him to a 36th level wizard you could create and you will find that it is actually a bit weaker - since the 36th level wizard can actually affect him with spells that grant no save, and has more spells, higher caster level, and better use of multispell/autoquicken. Paragon is most effective for a creature with a single special attack, or a melee based character. They get the best ability improvements. Human Paragon Fighter is nice enough. ROB
kreesteeyan 04-15-08, 09:03 PM	Interesting paragon template discussion. http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-63108.html