Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paladin's Pride 11-17-07, 11:22 AM	At epic levels, what kinds of spell effects are there left that don't destroy the game and still represent something qualitatively different than magic you could do at 20th level. In so many areas, magic seems to have reached the most powerful effect imaginable for that category of magic by 20th level. For example, it's almost impossible to imagine a dispel effect more potent than Mordekainen's Disjunction. The only reason one needs epic dispels at all is because people make themselves immune to this specific spell, but in all other ways epic dispel is inferior. Teleport without error combined with Gate are the end all of transportation spells, putting you virtually anywhere within 12 seconds. One of the few areas left for an epic teleport spell would be transporting into areas where teleportation magic is usually blocked, such as a divine realm, and many DM's wouldn't allow such magic to be created. Before epic you can eliminate any opponent on virtually any failed saving throw, and in many cases eliminate an opponent for several rounds without a saving throw. There are still spells that could effect the world on a massive scale, such as a spell to rain down fire upon an entire city, but such spells are seldom useful in the course of an epic adventure, since it's only a few exceptional beings that are a threat at epic anyhow. Assume for a second you could make any balanced spell you wanted, ignoring the epic spell creation rules (no doubt many of you do this anyhow), what sort of effects are still viable and balanced at epic?
Alias 11-17-07, 11:42 AM	Our group has tons of epic spells - everything from making a flying castle to summoning primal elementals to moving an entire (small) city into another timestream, to appear under certain circumstances (you know, the "lost" cities in the desert that only appear during the full moon or whatnot). Before epic you can eliminate any opponent on virtually any failed saving throw, and in many cases eliminate an opponent for several rounds without a saving throw. The problem with non-epic spells is that they were designed exclusive of epic spells - when things like wish were written, there were no epic spells; even after epic came out, it was always considered optional. Wish, gate, weird, energy drain - those were the best you could get. A good number of the 8th- and 9th-level spells should be epic - wish, wail, mass heal, etc. - and others need to be rebalanced - disjunction and gate, among others.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-17-07, 04:16 PM	What makes a spell epic? A very clunky and abusable skill mechanic! ...Alright honestly, spells are already epic at about 5th-6th level. 10th level spells and above are just more of the same, really. I would almost say that 10th+ level spells should grant the unique opportunity to do multiple things at once, but there are already nonepic spells that do that. (what's the one that combinse Message and Suggestion?)
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-17-07, 07:54 PM	(what's the one that combinse Message and Suggestion?) Sending, I believe. For me, Epic magic is a way of statting up the stuff that was always just a plot point, like the flying cities and flesh-burning twenty-year rain. Most of the non-Epic spells outdo them in terms of damage at least, and seem far easier to increase the numbers on it. Not to mention that the ungodly resources neccessary to make an Epic spell just doesn't seem to make them worthwhile for combat, unless it's something really crazy (Like a Slay seed that's been increased to 2d20 negative levels, but that's a DC in the 80s).
Tshern 11-17-07, 09:19 PM	And amazingly good buffs. I made up Magnificent insight inspired by Owl's insight. ½ CL to all stats for a week as an insight bonus. It was sick.
Angus Cotton 11-20-07, 09:32 PM	Well, for me, and this is just how my group runs it, Epic spells are world-effecting in nature, whereas non-epic spells are localized. Even non-epic spells that go across planes seem to only do it in small areas on both the start plane and the arrival plane. Epic spells are more global, world-effecting in nature...least they can be. If the wizard wants to channel all that energy into a localized effect, that is his choice, so to speak. So, I guess we look at it more from a roleplaying point of view than an actual mechanics point of view.
Jaerom Darkwind 11-21-07, 01:27 PM	You can't become a god using a non-epic spell.
Bloodsoul 11-21-07, 05:03 PM	Only significant Epic Spell I've made was a quickened dispel with up to +100 bonus on Caster checks without mitigation (and as an excuse to go from "Superb" to "Super Special Awesome"). After playing Final Fantasy XII for so long, I've thought about combining Teleportation Circle with Planeshift, going from one specific point in a plane to another in an attrative manner. More for looks than anything else, and seemed to fit better than a permanent Gate would have.
Avatar of Kokusho 11-22-07, 10:14 AM	I consider damage dealing epic spells to be an utter waste of time and effort, because it's far cheaper in terms of resources and such to utilize metamagic feats. (Then again, I play an incantatrix.) In game, however, my DM fears it, probably because of a few outlines I've came up with using the craptastic epic spell rules. Ergo, I have successfully created one spell. Just...one. Gives DR 20/-, but hey, it works out.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-23-07, 01:48 PM	Assume for a second you could make any balanced spell you wanted, ignoring the epic spell creation rules (no doubt many of you do this anyhow), what sort of effects are still viable and balanced at epic? Any particular reason that you're asking?
Paladin's Pride 11-26-07, 07:57 PM	Any particular reason that you're asking? Yes, mostly I was just trying to figure out for whatever version of epic spellcasting I use (almost certainly some homebrew concoction of my own creation), what sort of place epic spellcasting should occupy in my game. Is it mostly large rituals that create impressive far-reaching effects but that have little use in the typical adventures that an epic party embarks on, or do they fill the same spot as pre-epic spells did; that is to say, they are the primary tools that spellcasters use to overcome the challenges they face. It's more a theoretical question of what epic spells should do rather than what the current system actually allows. The present epic spellcasting rules are a bit divided on this point. On one hand, the official epic spellcasting rules with a few exceptions (wards, buffs) seems best suited to creating large-scale impressive effects that won't be used in day-to-day adventuring. However, when you look at the actual effects printed in the SRD, many of the effect seem designed to be used in the framework of an actual epic adventure (spell worm, enslave, etc.). It seems clear though, that no matter what level you are, your epic spells at best can only represent a few special spells that you use occasionally, you won't be throwing around epic level spells as a regular feature of ordinary combat. What I am trying to decide is, do I want to use epic spellcasting rules that allow an epic spellcaster to use 10th level and higher spells as the primary tool in overcoming the challenges in the adventures they face? If I do, I'm left with the question of what's really left for magic to do? It seems like virtually any adventure-scope challenge that one could imagine (short of extremes like the Iron siege) can already be overcome successfully using non-epic magic. What is there left to add with epic magic that can be used in overcoming epic challenges? Flying castles are cool, but it will be of dubious use in conquering the fortress of Orcus.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-26-07, 11:32 PM	That's why I reserve it for plot points. You may just not want to touch epic magic at all given how patchy it is.
Tequila_Sunrise 11-27-07, 09:41 PM	Yes, mostly I was just trying to figure out for whatever version of epic spellcasting I use (almost certainly some homebrew concoction of my own creation), what sort of place epic spellcasting should occupy in my game. Is it mostly large rituals that create impressive far-reaching effects but that have little use in the typical adventures that an epic party embarks on, or do they fill the same spot as pre-epic spells did; that is to say, they are the primary tools that spellcasters use to overcome the challenges they face. It's more a theoretical question of what epic spells should do rather than what the current system actually allows. Ah I see. Well my take on epic magic as I said is that it is simply bigger and better than nonepic magic. I consider nonepic spells to be already capable of impressive and far reaching effects--those spells are mostly left out of the game books simply because an adventurer has little use for them. For example I consider it well within the capabilities of a cabal of evil clerics (level 1-5 led by a 6 lvl + leader) to curse a town with blight and monsters. What nonepic spell could allow them to do such a thing, you ask? It's not important to actually have such a spell written up and defined because it's just a plot point. If I were to ever run another 3e epic game (unlikely as that may be), I'd give spell casters 10th level spells at 19th level (20th for sorcs) and continue with 11th and higher spells at epic levels. Epic spells would slowly get stronger and more far-reaching, but at the same pace as nonepic spells. I'd certainly be interested in what you eventually decide.
Amon_V 11-27-07, 10:25 PM	One of the Ideas I'm coming up with is 'Thresholds' beyond 9th level where magic can begin to alter things. Things like Reverse Gravity and Gate need to be rolled backwards into epic territory, while obvious progressions (Summon Monster, Healing Spells, Divinations, Save or Dies, Protections against all of the above) flesh out every level. Some High Powered abilities for Epic Magic: DR 0 as a Buff DR 1 as a Buff (Costs XP/Round, so don't permanence it without a steady flow of XP) Biomancy--the creation of new living creatures. Archomancy--Altering the Laws of Physics in limited ways. Mass Effects--Being able to more than low damage over a massive area. Contingent Rez Without Level Drain--Death is now meaningless. Double Action--You get two actions per round, and two move actions. Temporal Revision--'It never happened' becomes more and more possible.
Sagetim 11-28-07, 04:41 AM	One of the Ideas I'm coming up with is 'Thresholds' beyond 9th level where magic can begin to alter things. Things like Reverse Gravity and Gate need to be rolled backwards into epic territory, while obvious progressions (Summon Monster, Healing Spells, Divinations, Save or Dies, Protections against all of the above) flesh out every level. Some High Powered abilities for Epic Magic: DR 0 as a Buff DR 1 as a Buff (Costs XP/Round, so don't permanence it without a steady flow of XP) Biomancy--the creation of new living creatures. Archomancy--Altering the Laws of Physics in limited ways. Mass Effects--Being able to more than low damage over a massive area. Contingent Rez Without Level Drain--Death is now meaningless. Double Action--You get two actions per round, and two move actions. Temporal Revision--'It never happened' becomes more and more possible. actually, you could do that with, what? 1 nonepic feat, 1 epic feat...and say...a level 3 wizard, 7 archivist, and 14 mystic theruge. Level 24 feat of ignore material components. Cast contingency using level 6 wizard slot, and use a 9th level slot for true rez...free. nonepic feat? echew material components. mmmm, isn't it nice to get to cheat death like that?
setekh 11-28-07, 07:26 AM	As far as I'm concerned as a DM, Epic spells are the realm of the plot point and the deity only. And in one case both (A disintegrate effect that has a radius of 1000ft). Yay for crazy Artefacts.