Post/Author/DateTime	Post
claypigeons 02-27-07, 01:11 AM	Not a Racial Paragon... but the kind listed in the Epic Level book. I always hear of them, but I dont have the book, and the SRD doesn't contain fluff... So, if at all possible without breaking CoC, could someone explain what exactly a paragon is? Is the template meant to represent the offspring of gods? Or the avatars of them?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-27-07, 02:06 AM	A paragon is, well, a paragon. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paragon)
Skeetweasel 02-27-07, 03:30 AM	A paragon is, well, a paragon. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paragon) Wow, Ray, how insightful. A paragon from the epic book is the greatest template of them all. My book is not with me but rest assured, if you meet the illithid paragon from the book in a dark cave you might as well hand him you least powerful party mate's brain and hope that fills him up.
Witch 02-27-07, 08:35 AM	I've seen better templates than paragon, so it's not the greatest.
dragon221284 02-27-07, 08:38 AM	I've seen better templates than paragon, so it's not the greatest. where could i find these Templates?
Witch 02-27-07, 08:40 AM	In Upper Krust's Epic Bestiary, in the Immortals Handbook series. More in his Ascension, as well.
Taeldrin Laesrash 02-27-07, 09:11 AM	The Paragon is supposed to be the perfect member of a species, its progneiter, the evolutionary endpoint, and stuff like that. Its real purpose, though, is to upgrade monsters for epic play without advancing their HD. Thus, the template grants a bunch of obscene bonuses.
claypigeons 02-27-07, 01:58 PM	So a Paragon is more or less a "perfect" speciman of a certain species?
Witch 02-27-07, 01:59 PM	Perfect is overstating it, at least with the general purpose. How can one be perfect, if one isn't even fully advanced yet? Paragons are paragons, in the traditional meaning of the word.
rob_douglas 02-27-07, 06:10 PM	So a Paragon is more or less a "perfect" speciman of a certain species? Close enough - yes. That is the fluff effect of using one. Some people have said you should first advance it to max HD, and then add paragon. Another fluff description is that they are often worshiped as gods by cultures that may not actually have gods. How you include them in your cosmology could affect that. You could include them as representatives of the gods. ROB
claypigeons 02-27-07, 07:51 PM	Close enough - yes. That is the fluff effect of using one. Some people have said you should first advance it to max HD, and then add paragon. Another fluff description is that they are often worshiped as gods by cultures that may not actually have gods. How you include them in your cosmology could affect that. You could include them as representatives of the gods. Thank you. I was going to add them to my world, but I wasn't sure where. I asked for the fluff to get an idea of what they were described as being.
Skeetweasel 02-28-07, 12:45 AM	I've seen better templates than paragon, so it's not the greatest. I'd like to know what these templates are as well. Maybe something from a book, and not just something you made up.
Witch 02-28-07, 01:12 AM	I've already quoted you the source. www.immortalshandbook.com for more info.
Light_Colonel 02-28-07, 01:49 AM	It's also in the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicNonAbominations.html#paragon-creature). I think the Paragon template is one of the best Epic Templates. I also like the Epic Pseudonatural Template.
Jaerom Darkwind 02-28-07, 08:55 PM	The divine template is pretty sweet as well.
claypigeons 02-28-07, 11:57 PM	The divine template is pretty sweet as well. Divine template? Divine minion? Like (broken) one that gives you wildshape?
Jaerom Darkwind 03-01-07, 12:48 AM	No, the one that makes you a god.
HolyGrenadeFrenzy 03-01-07, 10:12 PM	Yeah, the Paragon template is a wonderful thing and I don't consider it broken especially when dealing with High Level as in Epic PC's .........It should be expected for them to encounter at least one Paragon of somethinga by the time they are that level although it is also quite probrable that many high level characters may never meet one. I stilll believe they are more likely to meet one being of Epic level and all.....Unless your DM is insane and especially if you are a DM whose players have more say than you.....There really is no excuse you realize.
Skeetweasel 03-04-07, 06:33 PM	I've already quoted you the source. www.immortalshandbook.com for more info. Sorry, I has expecting something more official. I am on the WoTC message boards?
Witch 03-04-07, 06:37 PM	You're on the WotC epic boards, a style of gaming sorely lacking in official material. You asked for something from a book - is it not a book? ;)
Jaerom Darkwind 03-04-07, 07:27 PM	Sorry, I has expecting something more official. I am on the WoTC message boards? Honestly, man, if you're looking for balanced and playable material, you're probably better off using UK's stuff than any "official" epic material published by WotC.
Kalis Atrud 03-06-07, 02:09 PM	Whenever I see a paragon thread, I immediatly think of Wesley from the Princess Pride. He's generally portrayed to be the perfect human. He became good enough at swordplay to defeat Inigo, who basically spent years doing nothing but training with a sword(haste + massive insight bonus to attack and damage perhaps?). He out wrestled a giant. He's supposed to be handsome, smart, wise, and good at anything he tries. He is immune to iocane powder(because of his uber 25+ con and save bonuses). And he recovers faster than expected from his resurrection.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-06-07, 07:52 PM	Funny, I think of Batman. Anyways, Among the population of every kind of creature are some specimens that are its weakest, worst representatives. Likewise, every population has its paragons: the strongest, smartest, luckiest, and most powerful of the species. Paragon creatures may represent the mythical First Creature, created in its perfect form by some creator deity, or perhaps the evolutionary endpoint of a race after thousands of years of steady improvement. Sometimes, paragons just spring up accidentally, when all the factors are right.Although I'd change that to "millions of years".
Rickiel 03-06-07, 08:04 PM	I tremble at the idea of a Paragon Ethergaunt.
LordBOB777 03-06-07, 08:18 PM	I tremble at the idea of a Paragon Ethergaunt. Depends on the color, though to be honest any color would scare me
Jaerom Darkwind 03-06-07, 08:37 PM	It's the paragon humans (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2004) that you should be worried about, like Zarus (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=235).
Kord's Boon 03-09-07, 07:40 PM	When I think of a paragon creature I see an individual who displays the maximum level of intellect, strength, ect. that a normal member of its species can display, but does so simultaneously. That is, a human paragon could move as gracefully as an Olympic gymnast and still bench 800 lb, while doing advanced math, and be the world’s fastest sprinter to boot, something that is not observed in actual humans. Think classic Captain America, for a demonstration of a racial paragon as far as physical stats. You will note that the racial paragon in the ELH is in fact more powerful than what I have described here, but I simply rework the crunch to match the fluff above in my campaigns.
Killane 03-09-07, 07:59 PM	I'd like to know what these templates are as well. Maybe something from a book, and not just something you made up. Read futher into the same book. The demilich template is much muich more deadly than Paragon- what with its rather broker soul drain ability, magic immunity, speed, high dr and host of nasty spell-like abilities
Kalis Atrud 03-10-07, 03:44 AM	It's the paragon humans (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2004) that you should be worried about, like Zarus (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=235). I know I haven't been to dicefreaks in awhile, but is it down or something? I haven't been able to access the forums for awhile.
Witch 03-10-07, 07:21 AM	I know I haven't been to dicefreaks in awhile, but is it down or something? I haven't been able to access the forums for awhile. Down for a while, yes :) JD is refering to a deity first mentioned in Races of Destiny (I think), as the racial god of humans - he's an incredible bigot, and I assume JD made him a paragon.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-10-07, 11:16 AM	Ish. He was a paragon human before his ascension, although most paragon abilities were subsumed by the more powerful deity template.
Starmage21 03-10-07, 02:55 PM	Whenever I see a paragon thread, I immediatly think of Wesley from the Princess Pride. He's generally portrayed to be the perfect human. He became good enough at swordplay to defeat Inigo, who basically spent years doing nothing but training with a sword(haste + massive insight bonus to attack and damage perhaps?). He out wrestled a giant. He's supposed to be handsome, smart, wise, and good at anything he tries. He is immune to iocane powder(because of his uber 25+ con and save bonuses). And he recovers faster than expected from his resurrection. I think of the dude Bruce Willis played in Unbreakable.
Jaerom Darkwind 03-11-07, 03:40 AM	Well, that guy wasn't exceptionally intelligent, wise, or charismatic. He was a physical paragon, but not really on the level of the true paragon template. Likewise, the Dread Pirate Roberts was more probably a high-level character with 5 levels in Human Paragon and a prestige class (dread pirate, I'm guessing). Even Batman, amazing though he is (olympic level skill in every event, super-genius intellect, more college degrees than you could shake a stick at, Charismatic as hell when playing the part of Bruce Wayne, etc.), probably lacks the paragon template. If you were to use D&D classes, he'd probably be an epic character with human paragon 5, lots of exemplar levels, and 5 levels of something else (maybe monk, or perhaps Extreme Explorer). Or he might have Factotum levels instead of exemplar, if someone were to make a balanced version of that class. And obviously 18s across the board to start with, an even distribution of paragon and advancement bonus, and +5 inherent bonuses to every score. The best human candidate for the actual paragon template from popular culture would probably be Captain America. He's the absolute best a human could ever possibly be in every respect (running a mile in a minute and a half, benching over a thousand pounds, so charismatic that even his enemies can't help but like him, etc.), and is not considered a superhuman (like the X-men or most other superheroes) or other species (like Superman).
Monkeygod 03-11-07, 11:51 PM	the one argument i'd make agaisnt Cap being a Paragon is that i dont think he's overly brilliant, beyond military tactics/knowledge, etc. Bruce is a rather brilliant strategist, but he's also a genius in a broad range of other area's of expertise.
bluemage55 03-12-07, 04:34 AM	In addtion to his physical abilities, Captain America's intelligence was also augmented to the near-limit of human capacity.
Monkeygod 03-12-07, 05:42 PM	yea, i know Bluemage, but Cap has never been shown to be more than a brilliant strategist, whereas we know Bruce is a genius level inventor, dectective, strategist, etc.
bluemage55 03-12-07, 05:51 PM	That would amount to having skill points in certain areas, rather than being Intelligence. Cap spent all of his skill points on skills like Jump, Tumble, Balance, Climb, etc. He just didn't buy Int-based skills, but that has nothing to do with intelligence but a different set of knowledge.