Why Do You Use the ELH? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Why Do You Use the ELH? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tequila_Sunrise
08-14-07, 01:21 PM The Prismatic Dragon v. Epic Party got me asking myself 'why do people still use the ELH for epic play?' With the book's many inherent flaws and the game savvy that is required of any Epic DM, I would think that more folks would create their own epic rules to streamline their game. So, why do you?

1. The ELH doesn't have problems. Epic play is different; that's what makes it Epic!
2. The ELH has problems, but it's too much of a hassle to rewrite it.
3. I don't use the ELH, thankyouverymuch! I have my own tried-and-true epic rules.
4. Other; please explain.
rob_douglas
08-14-07, 01:40 PM 2 - it is a nice baseline, but I don't use the RAW there more than I don't use it in other places. It is a real "reader beware" book.

ROB
archerpwr
08-14-07, 01:48 PM 2.
Senevri
08-14-07, 05:57 PM 2, sorta. but also 4.
ELH doesn't just have critters and effects in it - it also has advice on How to run epic games. I feel that shouldn't be underestimated, considering it's value.
Taeldrin Laesrash
08-14-07, 06:42 PM 1 and 2. There are parts that are nigh unusable (Like epic spells, item pricing, monsters, and Union), but there are parts that can be used without trouble (Mostly the feats and PrCs)
Krispieman
08-14-07, 07:08 PM 2, I think.

I mostly use the ELH for guidance. It's given me insight into advancing classes beyond level 20 or 10, grants some interesting ideas for furthering magical equipment and offers an array of feats, unbalanced as they may be.

I refuse to use the Epic Spellcasting system as it is inherently flawed. The idea was nice, but the result appalling.

I also have found little use for the epic monsters. This may be due to my campaign starting at 21st level, which is almost like starting a new campaign at 1st level: you don't get to use most of the monsters.

I am trying to include Union in my cosmos, but find that (much like many other cities) it's no more then another place to aquire or sell equipment and treasure. But as they PCs have only just completed their 1st week of game time, this may yet change.

In short: at current the only reason I have for opening my ELH is to look at feats and/or magic items.

K-man :cool:
runestar
08-14-07, 08:45 PM 2) It arguably solves more problems (which may not be readily apparent, such as bab/saves scaling) than it creates (why is a wiz20/fighter20 worse at fighting than a fighter20/wiz20?).

The monsters are also a mess, it seems that the designers don't have much of an idea how epic is supposed to scale past lv30-40, or at least, they have a very warped impression.

Epic spellcasting is problematic as well. It sounds okay in theory (an infinite-scaling magic system which works for any lv), but obviously breaks down in actual gameplay, with the huge amount of DM fiat required.

So in a way, for me at least, it is easily to read other people's work, spot the errors and point them out to correct, then spot my own errors.:)
Tequila_Sunrise
08-15-07, 05:48 PM The ELH definately has a couple of good points, for me that's mostly the notes about how to run an epic game.

So everybody answered with option 2, or at least #2 was part of your answer. So if the ELH has problems but isn't worth rewriting yourself, have you or would you ever consider a set of homebrew rules? For example, Dicefreaks has a slightly different take on epic mechanics and I've heard great things about Upper Krust's Immortal's Handbook. Are these options for your game or would you rather just stick with the official rules?
rob_douglas
08-15-07, 09:40 PM I stick as close to official as I can, because I have needed as much help from others as I could get, and using consistent rules means that it is easier to use others creations, including some great stuff from Dungeon magazine that only needed a little tweaking....

ROB
Droidarr
08-17-07, 06:29 AM 2 and 3

Has some good reference material
Ebrion
08-20-07, 08:02 PM I go with 2 mostly. I use the ELH for a base though and tend to make my own rules from it. Dicefreaks is a great place for epic level play help.
Diplominator
08-22-07, 04:03 PM Seconded. 2 Mostly, plus Dicefreaks.
Caros
08-24-07, 02:46 PM Aww, you actually referenced my thread without calling me a troll or making fun of it *is all heart*

God I wish he'd called it something else, every time I think of like... Alien Vs. Preditor, Party vs. Dragon, in that bad trailer voice.

Anyways, I'd probably say 2. As I've been pointing out over and over in my thread, the inherant problem with D&D, and almost every gaming system I can get my hands on, is that the higher you go, the more out of control it is.

Level 1, Even twinked out you've got a good handle on what the players can and can't do.

Level 30, Lets just say I've never really seen two identical epic characters. Indeed, Most epic characters I've seen tend to vary widely. One moves 500 feet per action, another 30, but hits harder, both of which are exploded by the mage's x doom spell, before a rogue/mage... yeah.

I love the idea of it, but execution is almost impossible. To play at epic, I swear that you need to make their characters for them.

Oh, and one other appendium. It doesn't come up much, since most games never go long enough in my experience. Epic is actually surprisingly balanced if you make the players play from 1-x epic level. If starting at a low level, players make sacrifices to be powerful then, that are really quite meaningless at high level. Food for thought =)
rob_douglas
08-24-07, 03:51 PM Absolutely - I agree with 2 points - make their characters for them, and start at level 1. Both will give you a much more in-control epic experience. There are some choices that look really good when you are 30th level, that you would never play at 10th level if you had to. And making them for them, by talking about what they want to do, lets you allow what you can handle and not allow what will break your back. It isn't a game where they are supposed to trick you - but where they make a character, and you give them fair challenges.

ROB
Tequila_Sunrise
08-24-07, 06:39 PM Aww, you actually referenced my thread without calling me a troll or making fun of it *is all heart*
Lol, it is amusing to watch you and Bluemage rip each other new ***holes, but I think the point of the thread is pretty much made pointless by the way you've both gone about it. You make 4 characters specifically designed to defeat his dragon while he makes his dragon likewise, using all of his hoard to buy PC level items. :rolleyes: Such a situation doesn't exactly answer the original question: is a properly played dragon a TPK waiting to happen? And btw, why are your characters handicapped by 10 (?) levels? Not that you need those levels, but still.

Oh, and one other appendium. It doesn't come up much, since most games never go long enough in my experience. Epic is actually surprisingly balanced if you make the players play from 1-x epic level. If starting at a low level, players make sacrifices to be powerful then, that are really quite meaningless at high level. Food for thought =)
How do you mean? I know of a few oddball options that vary in appeal from level to level *cough* LA buyoff *cough*, but I didn't think think there were so many of them as to be an issue.
BillTheManiac
08-24-07, 07:39 PM I think the question is actually "Is a properly played party a Total Adventure Kill waiting to happen?"
Optimator
08-25-07, 01:56 AM 2.
Caros
08-25-07, 12:31 PM My characters were handicapped by 10 levels to prove part of my initial point. The whole thing started when Bluemage called my roommate a liar when he said that a 20th level PC could kill a stock Great prismatic wyrm.

Long story short, I argued against that point, saying that a prismatic dragon could be felled, in core, many levels lower than its CR would indicate. That in fact CR is at best an incredibly vague guideline. To this effect I lowered my party level to the point where the CR charts say the fight should be impossible for me to win without outside interfearance or serious handicapping (Neither of which I have)

How do you mean? I know of a few oddball options that vary in appeal from level to level *cough* LA buyoff *cough*, but I didn't think think there were so many of them as to be an issue.

Err, the best way to explain it without going into too much detail is to look at my "party" against the prismatic. Their gear would make no sense if it was played from level 1-36. Likewise, their abilities, even their ability scores would handicap the hell out of them at low level.

Or take "Weapon focus" As a prime example. At level 1 you might really want that +1 to hit. But at level 30? Wouldn't you rather have taken that feat at a class prereq? Or as a feat that still has some impact. A character played from 1-30 doesn't have the option of going "Well this feat isn't gonna be used much when I'm level 30" Because he isn't going to GET to level 30 if he doesn't take it *laugh*

Its for this reason my favorite epic PC's were PC's that started level 15 and ended level 35. Because you could look at their sheets and see the build up, the advancement they made, the hard choices etc. Their sheets are smuddged and disorginized, so much better than a prim and propper 'off the line' epic char.
Tequila_Sunrise
08-25-07, 03:38 PM Or take "Weapon focus" As a prime example. At level 1 you might really want that +1 to hit. But at level 30? Wouldn't you rather have taken that feat at a class prereq? Or as a feat that still has some impact. A character played from 1-30 doesn't have the option of going "Well this feat isn't gonna be used much when I'm level 30" Because he isn't going to GET to level 30 if he doesn't take it *laugh*
Point taken. I guess I'm just not much of a power gamer. Even using the "ability trade-out" rules from PHII, I consider things like weapon focus to be a worthy investment no matter what my level. Just a nice little bonus that I don't have to think about. Mabye it's not worth it, but whatever.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tequila_Sunrise 08-14-07, 01:21 PM	The Prismatic Dragon v. Epic Party got me asking myself 'why do people still use the ELH for epic play?' With the book's many inherent flaws and the game savvy that is required of any Epic DM, I would think that more folks would create their own epic rules to streamline their game. So, why do you? 1. The ELH doesn't have problems. Epic play is different; that's what makes it Epic! 2. The ELH has problems, but it's too much of a hassle to rewrite it. 3. I don't use the ELH, thankyouverymuch! I have my own tried-and-true epic rules. 4. Other; please explain.
rob_douglas 08-14-07, 01:40 PM	2 - it is a nice baseline, but I don't use the RAW there more than I don't use it in other places. It is a real "reader beware" book. ROB
archerpwr 08-14-07, 01:48 PM	2.
Senevri 08-14-07, 05:57 PM	2, sorta. but also 4. ELH doesn't just have critters and effects in it - it also has advice on How to run epic games. I feel that shouldn't be underestimated, considering it's value.
Taeldrin Laesrash 08-14-07, 06:42 PM	1 and 2. There are parts that are nigh unusable (Like epic spells, item pricing, monsters, and Union), but there are parts that can be used without trouble (Mostly the feats and PrCs)
Krispieman 08-14-07, 07:08 PM	2, I think. I mostly use the ELH for guidance. It's given me insight into advancing classes beyond level 20 or 10, grants some interesting ideas for furthering magical equipment and offers an array of feats, unbalanced as they may be. I refuse to use the Epic Spellcasting system as it is inherently flawed. The idea was nice, but the result appalling. I also have found little use for the epic monsters. This may be due to my campaign starting at 21st level, which is almost like starting a new campaign at 1st level: you don't get to use most of the monsters. I am trying to include Union in my cosmos, but find that (much like many other cities) it's no more then another place to aquire or sell equipment and treasure. But as they PCs have only just completed their 1st week of game time, this may yet change. In short: at current the only reason I have for opening my ELH is to look at feats and/or magic items. K-man :cool:
runestar 08-14-07, 08:45 PM	2) It arguably solves more problems (which may not be readily apparent, such as bab/saves scaling) than it creates (why is a wiz20/fighter20 worse at fighting than a fighter20/wiz20?). The monsters are also a mess, it seems that the designers don't have much of an idea how epic is supposed to scale past lv30-40, or at least, they have a very warped impression. Epic spellcasting is problematic as well. It sounds okay in theory (an infinite-scaling magic system which works for any lv), but obviously breaks down in actual gameplay, with the huge amount of DM fiat required. So in a way, for me at least, it is easily to read other people's work, spot the errors and point them out to correct, then spot my own errors.:)
Tequila_Sunrise 08-15-07, 05:48 PM	The ELH definately has a couple of good points, for me that's mostly the notes about how to run an epic game. So everybody answered with option 2, or at least #2 was part of your answer. So if the ELH has problems but isn't worth rewriting yourself, have you or would you ever consider a set of homebrew rules? For example, Dicefreaks has a slightly different take on epic mechanics and I've heard great things about Upper Krust's Immortal's Handbook. Are these options for your game or would you rather just stick with the official rules?
rob_douglas 08-15-07, 09:40 PM	I stick as close to official as I can, because I have needed as much help from others as I could get, and using consistent rules means that it is easier to use others creations, including some great stuff from Dungeon magazine that only needed a little tweaking.... ROB
Droidarr 08-17-07, 06:29 AM	2 and 3 Has some good reference material
Ebrion 08-20-07, 08:02 PM	I go with 2 mostly. I use the ELH for a base though and tend to make my own rules from it. Dicefreaks is a great place for epic level play help.
Diplominator 08-22-07, 04:03 PM	Seconded. 2 Mostly, plus Dicefreaks.
Caros 08-24-07, 02:46 PM	Aww, you actually referenced my thread without calling me a troll or making fun of it is all heart God I wish he'd called it something else, every time I think of like... Alien Vs. Preditor, Party vs. Dragon, in that bad trailer voice. Anyways, I'd probably say 2. As I've been pointing out over and over in my thread, the inherant problem with D&D, and almost every gaming system I can get my hands on, is that the higher you go, the more out of control it is. Level 1, Even twinked out you've got a good handle on what the players can and can't do. Level 30, Lets just say I've never really seen two identical epic characters. Indeed, Most epic characters I've seen tend to vary widely. One moves 500 feet per action, another 30, but hits harder, both of which are exploded by the mage's x doom spell, before a rogue/mage... yeah. I love the idea of it, but execution is almost impossible. To play at epic, I swear that you need to make their characters for them. Oh, and one other appendium. It doesn't come up much, since most games never go long enough in my experience. Epic is actually surprisingly balanced if you make the players play from 1-x epic level. If starting at a low level, players make sacrifices to be powerful then, that are really quite meaningless at high level. Food for thought =)
rob_douglas 08-24-07, 03:51 PM	Absolutely - I agree with 2 points - make their characters for them, and start at level 1. Both will give you a much more in-control epic experience. There are some choices that look really good when you are 30th level, that you would never play at 10th level if you had to. And making them for them, by talking about what they want to do, lets you allow what you can handle and not allow what will break your back. It isn't a game where they are supposed to trick you - but where they make a character, and you give them fair challenges. ROB
Tequila_Sunrise 08-24-07, 06:39 PM	Aww, you actually referenced my thread without calling me a troll or making fun of it is all heart Lol, it is amusing to watch you and Bluemage rip each other new **holes, but I think the point of the thread is pretty much made pointless by the way you've both gone about it. You make 4 characters specifically designed to defeat his dragon while he makes his dragon likewise, using all of his hoard to buy PC level items. :rolleyes: Such a situation doesn't exactly answer the original question: is a properly played dragon a TPK waiting to happen? And btw, why are your characters handicapped by 10 (?) levels? Not that you need those levels, but still. Oh, and one other appendium. It doesn't come up much, since most games never go long enough in my experience. Epic is actually surprisingly balanced if you make the players play from 1-x epic level. If starting at a low level, players make sacrifices to be powerful then, that are really quite meaningless at high level. Food for thought =) How do you mean? I know of a few oddball options that vary in appeal from level to level cough* LA buyoff cough, but I didn't think think there were so many of them as to be an issue.
BillTheManiac 08-24-07, 07:39 PM	I think the question is actually "Is a properly played party a Total Adventure Kill waiting to happen?"
Optimator 08-25-07, 01:56 AM	2.
Caros 08-25-07, 12:31 PM	My characters were handicapped by 10 levels to prove part of my initial point. The whole thing started when Bluemage called my roommate a liar when he said that a 20th level PC could kill a stock Great prismatic wyrm. Long story short, I argued against that point, saying that a prismatic dragon could be felled, in core, many levels lower than its CR would indicate. That in fact CR is at best an incredibly vague guideline. To this effect I lowered my party level to the point where the CR charts say the fight should be impossible for me to win without outside interfearance or serious handicapping (Neither of which I have) How do you mean? I know of a few oddball options that vary in appeal from level to level cough LA buyoff cough, but I didn't think think there were so many of them as to be an issue. Err, the best way to explain it without going into too much detail is to look at my "party" against the prismatic. Their gear would make no sense if it was played from level 1-36. Likewise, their abilities, even their ability scores would handicap the hell out of them at low level. Or take "Weapon focus" As a prime example. At level 1 you might really want that +1 to hit. But at level 30? Wouldn't you rather have taken that feat at a class prereq? Or as a feat that still has some impact. A character played from 1-30 doesn't have the option of going "Well this feat isn't gonna be used much when I'm level 30" Because he isn't going to GET to level 30 if he doesn't take it laugh Its for this reason my favorite epic PC's were PC's that started level 15 and ended level 35. Because you could look at their sheets and see the build up, the advancement they made, the hard choices etc. Their sheets are smuddged and disorginized, so much better than a prim and propper 'off the line' epic char.
Tequila_Sunrise 08-25-07, 03:38 PM	Or take "Weapon focus" As a prime example. At level 1 you might really want that +1 to hit. But at level 30? Wouldn't you rather have taken that feat at a class prereq? Or as a feat that still has some impact. A character played from 1-30 doesn't have the option of going "Well this feat isn't gonna be used much when I'm level 30" Because he isn't going to GET to level 30 if he doesn't take it laugh Point taken. I guess I'm just not much of a power gamer. Even using the "ability trade-out" rules from PHII, I consider things like weapon focus to be a worthy investment no matter what my level. Just a nice little bonus that I don't have to think about. Mabye it's not worth it, but whatever.