Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bluetooth 01-05-08, 08:40 PM	I'll keep this one relatively painless though, Assuming you're creating a character already at epic levels I can only assume the best way to get around ASF is Improved Metamagic + Still Spell, as it avoids a lot of work to get around it otherwise. Then you just need to keep your BAB and CL as close to your character level as possible and use lots of awesome buffs (maybe even epic spells). Does that cover it for the epic gish or is there more?
Taeldrin Laesrash 01-05-08, 09:02 PM	Your first best bet is to have armor loaded with enhancements and materials that drop ASF to 0. Or just have Bracers, which can function at +8 with +5 abilities at non-epic pricing. Failing that, take a Spellthief level and the Master Spellthief feat, or a level of Fighter and the Armored Mage class feature (I'd recommend the former, you can steal spells and wear any armor, so it covers the benefit of the latter with more).
runestar 01-05-08, 09:04 PM	Twillight mithral chainshirt has ASF 0%, and you get have a +5 chainshirt of heavy fortification for sheer sexiness. :)
bluetooth 01-05-08, 09:55 PM	but what if you wanted to go with the classic sword and board type? Longsword, tower shield, and platemail. Would Improved Metamagic + Still spell be a bad way to get past ASF?
runestar 01-05-08, 11:13 PM	Depends on which version of improved metamagic you subscribe to. The ELH (and CA) version will not work on still spell, as it cannot reduce a slot adjustment to below zero. The DMG3.5 version should work (letting you still all your spells for free, and making a mockery of the auto-still feat tree), but is noticeably weaker in that it applies only to the final slot lv, not to each individual metamagic feat.
bluetooth 01-06-08, 03:07 AM	Well I mean I don't want to reduce it below zero, or do you mean it can't reduce slot adjustment to zero? But yeah, the auto-metamagic feat trees never really appealed to me. If I can use Improved Metamagic to still all my spells for free that's what I'd like to do if there's not a reason I shouldn't. I mean, I suppose the armors listed in this thread are a drop in the bucket when it comes to an epic character's financial resources but I'd like to have a gish that is as flexible about weapon and armor choice as any fighter. Plus Improved Metamagic + Still Spell obviate any need for taking 1 level dips in classes that reduce ASF by a percentage or trying to get a variant class feature that lets you cast in light armor and ignore ASF. I guess what I'm asking is, is using an epic feat slot for the sole purpose of eliminating ASF worth it?
runestar 01-06-08, 03:33 AM	Well I mean I don't want to reduce it below zero, or do you mean it can't reduce slot adjustment to zero? To zero. DMG3.5 version should work, but not ELH version. I guess what I'm asking is, is using an epic feat slot for the sole purpose of eliminating ASF worth it? Should be okay (in that the benefit appears more or less consistent with the cost), though it really won't be my first choice of action, since other means exist. For example, a mithral steel shield already has ASF 0%, and animated property frees up both hands (so I can wield a 2-handed weapon). But whatever floats your boat.:) However, note that in your case, both your hands are occupied (one holding a weapon, the other a tower shield). Still spell merely does away with somatic components, but does not remove material components (which you still need one free hand) unless you waste 2 more feats on ignore material components.
Avatar of Kokusho 01-06-08, 08:22 AM	Abjurant Champion. This somewhat obviates the need for any physical shield, seeing as you can get a +9 shield bonus from a spell at 5th level of the class. Plus, being a 1st level spell, the other class abilities extend it and allow you to cast it as a swift action. My group houseruled Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor to work with the AC, but there's no guarantee your DM is as kind. It also ensures that your caster level and BAB are one and the same...less effective post-epic, yet still relevant for spell resistance and duration/range. Look for a bit at the abjuration spells available and then smile when you realize that Extended Abjuration is a very nice thing. Somatic Weaponry (CAr) can be an option before you gain the 27 ranks in Spellcraft necessary to start with your Auto-Still Spell tricks. This would allow you to use a two-handed weapon and still cast. If you're going spellsword, then the class itself will give you some measure of reducing ASF. It also halves caster level progression, which isn't the best in the universe.
Taeldrin Laesrash 01-06-08, 12:41 PM	If you're going spellsword, then the class itself will give you some measure of reducing ASF. It also halves caster level progression, which isn't the best in the universe. That's why you only take one level. Get the 10% drop, and get the heck away from it. Abjurant Champion's good for the BAB and CL advancement, but a temporary, dispellable Shield spell isn't much of a substitute for armor.
BigGus 01-06-08, 01:30 PM	What's all this about using the DMG 3.5 version of Impr.MM to reduce the spell slot adjustment to +0? I'm sitting looking at it now, and it makes it very clear that you can't do that. It specifically says it "has no effect on a metamagic feat that requires a spell slot one level higher than normal".
bluetooth 01-06-08, 04:44 PM	That's odd, I'm looking at it now and you're right, but I could have sworn I saw a blanket -1 to slot adjustment (minimum zero) somewhere Also. I'm familiar with taking a 1 level dip in Spellsword and that there are armors that will work for me, but I'm trying to avoid those things because I want to be able to use the epic armors that I come across rather than having to get things custom made. As for material components, well there's nothing saying I have to do much of anything with them with my hands, so I think Still Spell also covers the fact I'm using both hands for other things. But if I can't get all my spells Stilled without serious investment of epic feats than this isn't the way to go. 3/4 epic feats seems like way too much just to be able to use any epic/artifact armor I happen to come across. But I want to be able to do that, so I might not have a choice. It's not all about the AC, it's about all the epic enchantments that will be harder to come by. A bit off topic, and somewhat suboptimal, but what would you house-rule an epic armor enchantment at that removed ASF completely?
BigGus 01-06-08, 06:52 PM	A bit off topic, and somewhat suboptimal, but what would you house-rule an epic armor enchantment at that removed ASF completely? I'd have to say it would depend on the armour. To make a suit of half-plate cause no ASF would require stronger magic than for a suit of leather. Not sure what % of ASF a +1 bonus should remove, though.
bluetooth 01-06-08, 07:57 PM	doesn't Twilight take off 10% at +1? Don't know how that would scale for +2.+3, etc
BigGus 01-06-08, 09:34 PM	What book is Twilight from?
bluetooth 01-06-08, 10:45 PM	originally it's from the BoED but I think it got reprinted somehwere.
Avatar of Kokusho 01-06-08, 11:12 PM	It was in the PH2, right next to the duskblade entry. I'd personally put an enhancement for reduction of ASF negation at around +4-5 or so. That's me, though :)
rob_douglas 01-07-08, 02:19 PM	Improved Metamagic won't work - as noted, it has no effect on 1-level metamagics. Some readings would grant that it works as long as you add other metamagics as well, using the 3.5 DMG version. The issue is whether IM applies per metamgic adjustment or overall to the whole spell. They left that hole wide open in both the ELH and DMG versions. My personal take, given all the people who point out that wizards rock with IM, is to rule that IM can reduce a single spell by 1 level - to a minimum of 1 level per metamgic feat applied. So a wizard with IMx4 casting Quickened Maxmized Still Meteor Swarm is level 12 by ELH, 13 by 3.5 DMG, and 13 by my rule. Raising that to IMx8 would be 12 by ELH, 10 by DMG 3.5, and 12 by my rule. Autostill should grant you all 9 levels by taking it once. It is truly not overpowered to do that. Another fix for all of these would be to make IM apply to only 1 metamagic feat of your choice, which would essentially remove the Auto feats altogether. Take IM(Still) and you get free Stills. Take IM(Quicken)x4 to get the equivalent of Autoquicken. but I digress... RE: armor enhancements, there is an optional rule in the Arms and Equipment guide that allows you to put enhancements on bracers. That is rife with its own controversy in determining how much you can give. The default rule is that +13 is the max you can do non-epic. So you could make epic bracers beyond that limit - and add the special ability bonus to the armor bonus. Another option that might work - use a Robe as your armor. A Robe is armor that grants a +0 bonus. You can make a +1 Rob and add lots of epic enhancements to it. I don't like this option, as it clearly circumvents the rules, but it might work for you. ROB
bluetooth 01-07-08, 04:49 PM	if I find a DM that let's Autostill go for all 9 spell levels (or higher) I think that would be my preferred way to go, so I can use any epic armor in the game. Things like Greater Mage Armor + Abjurant Champion abilities are competetive with real armor at non-epic but I'd have to see an actual break down of the mechanics to believe that was true for epic armors. That's even before dispelling. I like thie +5 equivalent enchantment for no ASF though my guess would be most DMs won't allow it for a non epic equivalent. Still no ASF is clearly inferior to even a single elemental immunity. So let's say you have AutoStill spell for all spells (like the demilich having perfect automatic still spell). would that result in new builds otherwise impossible? I'm thinking about it, but my experience with epic is limited.