Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Longarms 12-23-05, 12:47 PM	Okay, so you get -4 for firing into melee, but after reading the soft cover rules I think firing into melee is even harder. If your allie is between you and the monster the monster also gets +4 soft cover. How many people apply this bonus? Most games I am in the DM seems to ignore it and just apply the -4 for firing into melee.
Radijs 12-23-05, 01:01 PM	I apply the rule, though I haven't had a situation yet where it crops up.
Tony Vargas 12-23-05, 01:05 PM	It'd be nice to ignore, but it's there. Actually the rules for determining cover vs ranged attacks are pretty generous - to the target. It's very hard to avoid cover penalties. Improved Precise Shot is pure gold.
BoldBadger 12-23-05, 01:23 PM	All of the people I play with would rather close to melee than give an enemy the +4 cover bonus to AC, so -8 to hit is out of the question.
masterofmayhem 12-23-05, 01:32 PM	How many people apply this bonus? Most games I am in the DM seems to ignore it and just apply the -4 for firing into melee. We always use it. And since we almost always have an archer in our group, it comes up six or seven times a session. Honestly, the thought of ignoring the rule never occurred to me, since it comes up so often for us. Plus, archers in our campaign have an uncanny ability to hit more often than melee fighters for some reason. Even with the effective -8 to attack from cover and shooting into melee.
kjenks 12-23-05, 01:43 PM	Yes, there's usually a -4 attack penalty for firing into melee and there's usually a +4 cover bonus to the target's AC. The Precise Shot feat can eliminate the -4 attack penalty for firing into melee. For a larger opponent, you can target a square of which is not within 5 ft. of an ally. You can ask your allies to take a 5 ft. step back after making their attacks, possibly delaying your actions until just after your allies step back. And there are often opponents who want to avoid melee; target them. The Guided Shot spell can eliminate the +4 cover bonus to AC. This works especially well for sorcerers, who excel at casting the same spell multiple times. Also, a Swift Fly spell could put you into a position where you can fire into melee without your opponent gettting cover. When the spell expires, just like a Fly spell, you drift slowly down, or you can cast the Swift Fly again next round. Again, this works well for sorcerers. (Be careful; Guided Shot and Swift Fly are both swift actions and you can only take one of those per round.)
CelestialBarbarian 12-23-05, 02:26 PM	Okay, so you get -4 for firing into melee, but after reading the soft cover rules I think firing into melee is even harder. If your allie is between you and the monster the monster also gets +4 soft cover. How many people apply this bonus? Most games I am in the DM seems to ignore it and just apply the -4 for firing into melee. I use the rule too, although most of the DMs with whom I've played have trouble grasping that the +4 cover bonus to AC and that -4 attack penalty aren't one and the same thing. They almost all seem to think that if you take the -4 penalty shooting into melee you ignore cover granted by an ally in melee. I'm playing an archer in someone else's campaign and I'm sure I could get away with just the -4 penalty but I alway insist on giving the badguys their cover bonus. That will make both Sharpshooting (from Order of the Bow Initiate) and Improved Precise shot so sweet. Actually he as Precise Shot anyway so he doesn't take the -4, but that's what Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot are two different feats. Actually I think with the introduction of Improved Precise Shot (first in 3.0 Masters of the Wild, I think) in the 3.5 PHB, more people see the difference. I'm glad to see that everyone who has replied here uses both the penalty and the bonus. At the risk of sounding like a rules-lawyer, it's good to see people actually understanding the rules as written (and applying them consistently across campaigns). :cool:
wonlee76 12-23-05, 03:01 PM	The only time I find the soft cover rules kicking in is if the fighting is in a tight corridor where there would be no angle available to avoid the soft cover penalty. Otherwise, in an open battlefield, it is pretty easy to position yourself so your allies are not between you and your intended target.
kjenks 12-23-05, 05:21 PM	The only time I find the soft cover rules kicking in is if the fighting is in a tight corridor where there would be no angle available to avoid the soft cover penalty. Otherwise, in an open battlefield, it is pretty easy to position yourself so your allies are not between you and your intended target. Yes, but if you position yourself there, your target can charge you, and that ain't cool. If your buddy is toe-to-toe with an enemy, half of the battlefield is affected by soft cover because your opponent can choose any corner of his square(s) for determining cover. The only angles where this won't affect you are on the opposite side of the battlefield from your melee buddy or directly over your opponent. Swift Fly can put you there and keep you out of trouble without spending a standard action to get you started. But that also makes you Mister Piñata, a perfect target for enemy ranged attacks and (if you're flying too low) charging leap attacks. So be careful with that.
Nom 12-23-05, 06:28 PM	If your buddy is toe-to-toe with an enemy, half of the battlefield is affected by soft cover because your opponent can choose any corner of his square(s) for determining cover.Maybe I've misunderstood what you're saying, but this doesn't seem quite correct. The attacker can choose any corner of his square/s. Sight lines are then traced to every corner of the defender's square. If some are blocked, the target has cover. If all are blocked, the target cannot be shot. (PH pg 150 ff).
primemover003 12-23-05, 06:44 PM	It's not archers that this rule was really intended to hinder... it's ranged touch attack spells that are. When a Wizard has a Scorching Ray or Orb of Acid up his sleeve you want your baddies to find some cover or close to melee right quick. This is a great strategy for your heavy melee BBEG's so they don't get wholloped by the Mage. Unless the party consists of all rogues and monks the mage may be hesitant to drop an area affect spell in amongst the party... Note, in my last campaign the party was practically all Rogues and a Monk so our wizard did not shed one tear about dropping a maximized acid ball into melee.
Thorak 12-23-05, 08:32 PM	I'm playing a halfling ranger archer at the moment, and I'm the chief reason we use soft cover right now, that and there's so many dang sling-wielding goblins around right now. But, given the cover rules, if you use them tactically, you can do crazy things with a little thought. One session, we managed to sneak up on the enemy. I managed to climb a convenient tree, and had a relatively good LoS to the whole battlefield. While, being up high, I got a high ground bonus to hit. While the enemy had to deal with a penalty to hit for lower ground, a +4 bonus to my already relatively high AC from the branches, and concealment from the leaves and smaller branches. Didn't get hit once. There's a lot of these neat little modifiers; using them can do wonders.
Pandaemoni 12-23-05, 09:13 PM	The games I've played in all use the -8.
Longarms 12-23-05, 09:17 PM	"The only time I find the soft cover rules kicking in is if the fighting is in a tight corridor where there would be no angle available to avoid the soft cover penalty." First of all, in that situation, the TOTAL cover rule kicks in. "Total Cover: If you don't have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover." Second of all, not sure what you mean by "no angle available to avoid." That doesn't sound right. See the PHB below... (emphesis added) "If ANY line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC)."
Moon-Lancer 12-23-05, 09:26 PM	a wizard is going to have a hard time with those ray touch spells at a -8. I see this as a good thing.
Longarms 12-23-05, 09:29 PM	"a wizard is going to have a hard time with those ray touch spells at a -8. I see this as a good thing." They can get precise shot, right? Then only -4?
kjenks 12-23-05, 09:37 PM	Maybe I've misunderstood what you're saying, but this doesn't seem quite correct. The attacker can choose any corner of his square/s. Sight lines are then traced to every corner of the defender's square. If some are blocked, the target has cover. If all are blocked, the target cannot be shot. (PH pg 150 ff). These are complex rules, easily misunderstood. Yes, the attacker can choose any corner of his square(s). But the rules you're looking at are for line of sight, not for determining cover. SRD === To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC). === If all of those lines from you to your target go through a creature, you can still shoot your target, but it gets soft cover. SRD === Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check. Big Creatures and Cover: Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you. Total Cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover. ===
kjenks 12-23-05, 09:41 PM	"a wizard is going to have a hard time with those ray touch spells at a -8. I see this as a good thing." They can get precise shot, right? Then only -4? Yes, and a wizard can get that Guided Shot spell I was talking about, too, which eliminates most cover effects. (And technically, cover grants a +4 cover bonus to the target's AC, not a -4 on your wizard's attack roll. The effect is the same, but the words are different.)
kjenks 12-23-05, 09:46 PM	"The only time I find the soft cover rules kicking in is if the fighting is in a tight corridor where there would be no angle available to avoid the soft cover penalty." First of all, in that situation, the TOTAL cover rule kicks in. "Total Cover: If you don't have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover." Nope. There's a difference between line of sight and line of effect. In this situation you might have something like this: A 5-ft.wide corridor with an enemy in square A1, a friend in square A2 and a wizard in square A4. The wizard has line of sight to the opponent in A1 and line of effect, but the opponent in A1 is "in melee" with the friend in A2 and if the wizard wants to shoot a ray spell at the opponent, the friend in A2 provides soft cover to the opponent in A1. The friend in A2 does not block line of effect. Nor does he block line of sight. But he does provide soft cover. See how it works?
kjenks 12-23-05, 09:49 PM	I'm playing a halfling ranger archer at the moment, and I'm the chief reason we use soft cover right now, that and there's so many dang sling-wielding goblins around right now. But, given the cover rules, if you use them tactically, you can do crazy things with a little thought. One session, we managed to sneak up on the enemy. I managed to climb a convenient tree, and had a relatively good LoS to the whole battlefield. While, being up high, I got a high ground bonus to hit. While the enemy had to deal with a penalty to hit for lower ground, a +4 bonus to my already relatively high AC from the branches, and concealment from the leaves and smaller branches. Didn't get hit once. There's a lot of these neat little modifiers; using them can do wonders. That "higher ground" bonus only applies to melee attacks, not to ranged attacks. Being in a tree would normally provide only concealment (20% miss chance), not cover.
Longarms 12-23-05, 09:51 PM	"Nope. There's a difference between line of sight and line of effect." Thanks, I get it now! I did not notice that distinction before. Man, this isn't your father's roleplaying game! These rules are complex :)
Nom 12-24-05, 08:35 AM	These are complex rules, easily misunderstood.Perhaps. But what I don't understand is your original statement. If your buddy is toe-to-toe with an enemy, half of the battlefield is affected by soft cover because your opponent can choose any corner of his square(s) for determining cover.Who is the archer here? I had assumed it was you, in which case cover only applies to sight lines that go from your chosen corner through your ally (or another creature). If the archer is the opponent and a creature is adjacent to him then very little of the battlefield is covered by the adjacent creature. If the creature is orthogonally adjacent he blocks a single row. If diagonally adjacent he covers a 3-square diagonal: the diagonal he is in and the two parallel diagonals. Adjacent: ...... .ABccc ...... Diagonal: ....cc ...ccc ..ccc. ..Bc.. .A.... ...... Soft cover is figured identically to regular cover, except: (1) Only applies to ranged attacks (PH pg 151, see errata) (2) No bonus to reflex saves (PH pg 151) (3) Does not count for hiding (PH pg 151) (4) Does not block line of effect (PH pg 176 - it's not a "solid barrier") (5) Never provides total cover (implicit from PH pg 151, explicit from PH pg 152 and point #4). Are we saying the same thing, or are you saying something totally different? From my perspective, your statement isn't actually saying what I think you want it to say, nor what the rules say. If your buddy is toe-to-toe with an enemy, half of the battlefield is affected by soft cover because your opponent can choose any corner of his square(s) for determining cover.Assuming you are the archer, a true statement would be: "If your buddy is toe-to-toe with an enemy, you will only be able to get a clear shot (no cover) from half the battlefield, because any sight line from your buddy's side of the battlefield to all of your opponent's corners will cross some part of your buddy's square." Issues: (1) Neither your buddy nor your opponent are providing soft cover to half the battlefield, but your buddy provides your opponent with soft cover from half the battlefield. (2) Your opponent doesn't choose which corner he uses for cover. You choose which of your corners to attack from, and trace lines to all of his.
kjenks 12-24-05, 08:55 AM	If you are the archer and your buddy is engaged in melee, toe-to-toe with an opponent, that opponent will have soft cover from half of the battlefield. Let's put three creatures on an otherwise empty battlefield. Let's say your opponent is in square M13 and your buddy is in M12. Anywhere you stand in rows 1-11 (half of the battlefield), your opponent in M13 will have soft cover from your ranged attacks. In order to get a clear shot -- no cover -- you'll need to move to row 12 or higher (the other half of the battlefield). Then you can take a shot from a corner of your square and you can draw a line to all four corners of your opponent's square (M13) without any of those lines passing through a creature. However, when you're on that other half of the battlefield, where you have a clear shot, your opponent can charge you, given enough movement.
Nom 12-24-05, 09:54 AM	If you are the archer and your buddy is engaged in melee, toe-to-toe with an opponent, that opponent will have soft cover from half of the battlefield.Ah, now I understand. The reworked wording makes it clearer. We are saying the same thing on #1, then. However, when you're on that other half of the battlefield, where you have a clear shot, your opponent can charge you, given enough movement.If I'm close enough and there is no rough terrain and he doesn't mind provoking an AoO from my buddy and getting charged by him in return, sure.
Thorak 12-24-05, 10:45 AM	That "higher ground" bonus only applies to melee attacks, not to ranged attacks. Missed that, good catch. I've been forgetting to use it anyway, so it works out. Being in a tree would normally provide only concealment (20% miss chance), not cover. Depends on how you position yourself. On the other side of the trunk, when you're a halfling, you can easily have cover from the trunk, and concealment from the other branches and leaves. No different than being mostly behind a wall in the dark, where you'd get both as well.
kjenks 12-30-05, 04:28 PM	Depends on how you position yourself. On the other side of the trunk, when you're a halfling, you can easily have cover from the trunk, and concealment from the other branches and leaves. No different than being mostly behind a wall in the dark, where you'd get both as well. That's not quite how trees work. Check out the DMG, p. 87. Trees provide cover: +2 AC for normal trees ("dot in the center of each square"), +4 for massive trees ("take up an entire square"). Light undergrowth provides normal concealment (20% miss chance); heavy undergrowth provides extra concealment (30% miss chance, +5 to Hide checks). If you're up in the tree, the DM determines whether the leaves around you count as light or heavy "undergrowth" and how many squares of concealment they provide. Squares can contain both trees and undergrowth. If you're in a square full of something that grants concealment (leaves, undergrowth, fog, smoke, whatever) and you have line of sight with an enemy, you can fire a ranged weapon at that enemy, but your enemy might have concealment, too. If a corner of your square is at the edge of the effect granting concealment, you can shoot at your opponent from that corner of your square with no miss chance, but if he shoots at you, he has the usual 20% miss chance. But if there's a square granting concealment between you and your enemy, you'll have the usual miss chance. The Forest Canopy rules for fighting from raised platforms in trees do grant both cover and concealment, depending on the type of the forest (light or medium/dense).
primemover003 12-30-05, 07:05 PM	Damn Kjenks you are on the ball in this thread! I was going to weigh in on the higher ground & tree issues but you stated them quite succinctly... But Thorak you're right in theory, using the bonuses from trees and undergrowth wisely will yield you some great encounters!
FeyearthDM 12-31-05, 01:36 PM	All the preceding posts seem to be assuming Med. figures all around. However, as DM I find that the small PC in the group is often between the foe and the archer... so I've decided to scale the "soft" cover bonus somewhat. Option 1 (easy) - Foe=Large, "cover"=small, if attacker is Med. or larger then the cover is no bonus at all. This is the most common situation, e.g. L ogre S PC M archer. Option 2 (complex) - If target and attacker combined are 3 sizes larger than cover, no bonus for that cover; if 2 sizes larger, cover = +2 bonus; if only 1 then full +4 bonus. In all cases if either foe or attacker is smaller size than the cover, full bonus applies. This of course also applies to reach weapons.
Nom 01-01-06, 01:56 AM	The "low obstacle" rules deal nicely with different sizes. A Small creature is tall enough to count (assuming a Medium targe), so will provide cover if not closer to the attacker. Anything smaller will not provide cover.
Thorak 01-01-06, 10:22 AM	That's not quite how trees work. Check out the DMG, p. 87. Trees provide cover: +2 AC for normal trees ("dot in the center of each square"), +4 for massive trees ("take up an entire square"). Light undergrowth provides normal concealment (20% miss chance); heavy undergrowth provides extra concealment (30% miss chance, +5 to Hide checks). If you're up in the tree, the DM determines whether the leaves around you count as light or heavy "undergrowth" and how many squares of concealment they provide. Squares can contain both trees and undergrowth. If you're in a square full of something that grants concealment (leaves, undergrowth, fog, smoke, whatever) and you have line of sight with an enemy, you can fire a ranged weapon at that enemy, but your enemy might have concealment, too. If a corner of your square is at the edge of the effect granting concealment, you can shoot at your opponent from that corner of your square with no miss chance, but if he shoots at you, he has the usual 20% miss chance. But if there's a square granting concealment between you and your enemy, you'll have the usual miss chance. The Forest Canopy rules for fighting from raised platforms in trees do grant both cover and concealment, depending on the type of the forest (light or medium/dense). I'm well aware of all of this. It was a big tree, filling the square, and I was in light undergrowth at the height I was at. Just at the beginnings of the branches and leaves; I could duck down in my square to reach a non-concealed corner and fire, but they had to shoot through the leaves and small branches, and past the full-square trunk, to try and shoot at me. I was just simplifying the commentary in my post. Anyway, my point was that using the terrain can give you ridiculously good benefits, if you're willing to read up on the rules. My character doesn't have the highest AC, but he's an annoying target, and is targeted by ranged attackers about as often as anyone else. And he gets hit far less. Entirely because of tactics, like getting a position up a tree.