Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JadeSpider9643 04-21-05, 05:13 AM	My first attempt at creating a magical item, so I'm sure it has a flaw in it somewhere, that I just can't find. someone please tell me there's a flaw, it seems WAY too good to be true. I wanted to make a +1 Longbow with the ability to cast True Strike 3/day So by my figuring, the base price is just under 4000gp Weapon bonus (Enchantment) +1 = Bonus squared x 2000 = 2000gp Command word activated = caster level x spell level x 1800 = 1800gp -Charges per day 3 = 1800 * 3/5 = 1080 -Multiple Different abilities = 1080 x 1.5 = 1620 Weapon bonus + command word ability = 2000 + 1620 = 3620gp And +375 for masterwork bow = 3995gp That seems incredibly cheap to me for such an item... surely I have gone wrong somewhere, someone please show me where?
Yak of Darkness 04-21-05, 05:35 AM	The Bow/Sword/Monkey of True Strike has been argued out a million times here, always ending with the conclusion that (1) it's a bad idea and (2) this is why the DM has the final say on the cost of player-made magic items--the charts are just general guidelines that can't possibly take into account every spell's effect on every type of item. That said, it's not too terribly bad, when you consider that the fighter in question has to blow a turn on a standard action to get the true strike for his next round's attack, meaning whatever enemy he thinks he needs true strike against gets a round's worth of free shots at him. Although you could ad hoc an increase to price, what with it being a personal range spell enchanted on an item that whoever can actually cast the spell isn't proficient with (outside of elves or multiclassing). Alternatively, you could make it a special ability that can be stuck onto any weapon with an effective enhancement bonus cost. Costing it at +1 would set the final price at 8,375gp with the added advantage (if one thinks this is too powerful) of it scaling up in cost if you want a weapon with more plusses/special abilities. So a +2 True Strike Bow (under your figuring costing 9,995gp) would now cost 18,375gp, damn near twice as much. Of course, if you still think this is too much power for too little coin, you can make it an effective cost bonus of +2 or +3 to keep it in line. Finally, if you're worried about abuse with Power Attack, give the ability a name like "hawk's sight" or "far sight" and have it be a special ability only applicable to ranged weapons. Then voila, you've created a new magic weapon ability for your game.
Eliza_Stormwhisper 04-21-05, 05:56 AM	If I were a DM and someone came up with the idea of making a longbow of true striking, I'd beat them up for just thinking about it. IMO, the "True Strike" spell is broken anyhow...
JadeSpider9643 04-21-05, 06:33 AM	sooo....basicly I did it right, but just happened to pick the most broken spell to add to it on my very first try?:eek: (I'm so pround:cloud9: )
Santrilla 04-21-05, 06:50 AM	sooo....basicly I did it right, but just happened to pick the most broken spell to add to it on my very first try?:eek: (I'm so pround:cloud9: ) Pretty much, yeah. A Ring of True Strike was discussed in an article some time ago and the conclusion was basically that rather than basing the cost on the spell, it should be based on an effective attack bonus increase of +20. That would be half the cost of enchanting a weapon with a normal +20 bonus (because it only applies to attack, not damage). Which is still waaay into the Epic costs. Calculating cost, you did right though. If you replaced True Strike with, say, Magic Missile, the cost would be correct :)
Enaloindir 04-21-05, 08:01 AM	IMO, the true strike casting is still ok, as long as it command word activated up to a few times per day...it's only the continuous or use-activated true strike items that become ridiculously overpowered. Enaloindir
Nom 04-21-05, 09:20 AM	Elanoindir beat me to it. Make sure you understand the difference between a magic item than allows the user to cast true strike (either X/day or by using charges) and a "continuous true strike" item. In general, the item described above is weaker than a wand of true strike in the hands of character with a single level or sor or wiz. It will allow a character to 3/day to almost certainly hit with a single attack, at the cost of a standard action (plus whatever actions the attack requires). That's handy, but is less than a game-killer. Price according to whatever you think the above ability is worth.
tarkin 04-21-05, 11:24 AM	The first thing is to price it right. The fact that you are using a first level spell is IRRELEVANT. Items are priced on their power, not their spell level. Spell level can be used to help determine power, but ONLY if there is no other method of pricing it. +20 to hit is an epic power. It costs 20 ^2 * 2000 * (3/4 for only being + to hit not + to damage) * 3/5 for only being useable 1/day. So givign something a True Stike 3/day ability costs 360,000 gp, using the official WoTC rules. Learn the Magic item creation rules.
Nom 04-21-05, 11:57 AM	Uh, Tarkin, how do you get from 20^2 * 2000 for a permanent +20 enhancement bonus (to attack and damage) to that * 3/4 * 3/5 for a 3/day item? Personally, I find it hard to justify that a one-shot ability of brief duration that requires a standard action to trigger and useable 3/day should be priced at 3/5 of a permanent enhancement bonus. The utility of the two abilities is obviously quite comparable.
JadeSpider9643 04-21-05, 12:00 PM	I feel compelled to defend and justify my new toy... so in defense of the +1 Longbow of Cheese, true strike does not grant a straight +20 bonus, it only applies to your very next attack, not even a full attack action, not to both weapons if dual wielding, just to the next attak roll. and you can still critically fail anyway. Plus it still must be cast the round before (mabye I should use a quickened version?...I'll look into that later). Plus it's only 3/day out of the potential 50+ attack rolls you COULD be making each day, also it doesn't guarantee a good damage roll. +20 to hit, but you can still roll all 1's damage. All of a sudden this really doesn't seem that great to me anymore....DAMIT LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rant: :rant: :rant: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Kaboth 04-21-05, 01:03 PM	The first thing is to price it right. +20 to hit is an epic power. It costs 20 ^2 * 2000 * (3/4 for only being + to hit not + to damage) * 3/5 for only being useable 1/day. Learn the Magic item creation rules. Before you rag on people to use epic level rules, first they must have the epic level rules (which is not a core book). Second, they ARE using the rules, so why dont you go look it up in the DMG. There is not one thing in the DMG that states if X spell gives to much of Y, then use the epic level rules for item creation. Thirdly, just because something is in the rules does not mean a DM has to accept or allow things in game. The DM is the ultimate abitrator on whats what is allowed and whats not. However, with that said. The DM can use the SAME rules to jack up the price in the DMG since it is an unnamed weapon +bonus to hit. For Example... Masterwork Bow - 375 GP +1 Enhancment - 2,000 GP Command Word activated - 1800 GP +20 to Hit - 20^2 x 2000gp = 800,000 GP Multiple Different Abilities - 800,000 x 2 = 1.6 Million GP 3/times per day - (1.6 Million GP + 4175 GP)/1.666666 Total Cost comes to a grand total of 962,505 GP.
dulsin 04-21-05, 01:48 PM	If there is anything wrong with a True strike bow then you should just ban the spell from your game. After all what difference does it make if you are making that compaired to a ring of True strike, A bag of potions of true strike, a wand of true strike? All of the items will take a standard action to use. Now if you are saying that they can activate it as a free action .... then ya you have blown game balance.
Max Overload 04-21-05, 02:09 PM	I wanted to make a +1 Longbow with the ability to cast True Strike 3/day So by my figuring, the base price is just under 4000gp Weapon bonus (Enchantment) +1 = Bonus squared x 2000 = 2000gp Command word activated = caster level x spell level x 1800 = 1800gp -Charges per day 3 = 1800 * 3/5 = 1080 -Multiple Different abilities = 1080 x 1.5 = 1620 Weapon bonus + command word ability = 2000 + 1620 = 3620gp And +375 for masterwork bow = 3995gp Seems fine to me. I mean, it's only going to work three times a day. That's three attacks @ +20 to hit. You can't power attack with a bow. At least not if using it as it was intended...
mercurial67 04-21-05, 02:54 PM	There is absolutely nothing wrong with that item. It is very similar to the bow of true arrows listed in the old Sword and Fist. That item costs 4000gp and you can cast true strike as a spell trigger an unlimited number of times. The only limitations (which should be the same for this item) are it is a spell trigger item (just like a wand) meaning you must have true strike on your spell list and that it only applies to arrows fired from the bow. Limitations are you have to spend a standard action to trigger the effect and in this version you can only use it 3/day. Contrary to what tarkin has to say, it is NOT an epic item. It is not a bow which gives you +20 to hit, it is a bow which allows you to trigger a spell.
Kaboth 04-21-05, 03:02 PM	But isnt the sword and fist book a 3.0 book?
Aubri 04-21-05, 03:09 PM	Calculating cost, you did right though. If you replaced True Strike with, say, Magic Missile, the cost would be correct :) Actually, that would be pretty cool. Instead of making your next shot hit, 3/day the bow can generate an arrow of light that seeks out and automatically strikes a target within medium range, dealing 1d8+2 force damage*. Name it "Galvayra, the Bow of Light" and you're an enormous geek. :cool: *1d8 because it's the usual longbow damage, and is approximately equal to the 2d4 that a 3rd level MM would deal. Note that it'd need to be a 3rd caster level enchantment in this case, so the extra power would be a little more expensive.
Maraxus 04-21-05, 05:57 PM	But isnt the sword and fist book a 3.0 book? Just because wizards of the coast sais so, you don't have to throw away all the old stuff and buy new stuff. Much of the 3.0 material does still work. About the topic: I agree about the following: - It is stupid to price a bow of true srike into the same dimensions as a +20 weapon. - The dm has the ability to increase the cost of the item or compleately ban it. - The bow of cheese is strong but not game-breaking. If you want some abuseable spells, think of bull strength, tensars transformation!, cure minor wounds!!!, mirror image (give this to the monk and ... evil!, fabricate (without limited uses per day), Antimagic Field or any of these buffing cleric spells (fighters on righteous might?). No dm, worth his players would allow this!
Kaboth 04-21-05, 06:01 PM	Just because wizards of the coast sais so, you don't have to throw away all the old stuff and buy new stuff. Much of the 3.0 material does still work. About the topic: I agree about the following: - It is stupid to price a bow of true srike into the same dimensions as a +20 weapon. - The dm has the ability to increase the cost of the item or compleately ban it. - The bow of cheese is strong but not game-breaking. If you want some abuseable spells, think of bull strength, tensars transformation!, cure minor wounds!!!, mirror image (give this to the monk and ... evil!, fabricate (without limited uses per day), Antimagic Field or any of these buffing cleric spells (fighters on righteous might?). No dm, worth his players would allow this! I only said that because some didnt like it, personally 3 times a day I am fine with. If it was continous then it would be a +20 weapon as far as I would rule. Tenser's Transformation use to be uglier in 2nd Edition, its not bad now. But other than that how is it abusable? Are you talking spells only or making magic items with it?
Maraxus 04-21-05, 06:22 PM	Think of a rogue on Transformation. In 3.0 it is even more wrong. Anyway, given to a character, who does not lack from the ability to not be able to cast spells anymore, this is to strong. Think about making it permanent and compare the price only to an item with +4 Con, Str, Dex only.
Aubri 04-21-05, 06:48 PM	I note, however, that Tenser's is never a direct effect of an item--for exactly that reason. The Monk's Belt uses Tenser's or Righteous Might, but doesn't grant that effect when used. I'd use the same theory with other "broken" spells.
Kaboth 04-21-05, 06:56 PM	Think of a rogue on Transformation. In 3.0 it is even more wrong. Anyway, given to a character, who does not lack from the ability to not be able to cast spells anymore, this is to strong. Think about making it permanent and compare the price only to an item with +4 Con, Str, Dex only. Okay Just for a continous use or use-activated item that did tenser's transform it would be like this.. Use-Activated - (6x12x2000)x2 = 576,000 GP Now if your DM wanted to be cruel he could state it has multiple different abilites and that would also be a x2 modifier, for a total of 1,152,000 GP. A Belt of Magnifigence with a +5 Modifier is only 200,000 GP IIRC and thats a +5 to all stats.
Gloriam Etriae 04-21-05, 07:36 PM	Okay, I took a look at a Quickened True Strike effect for a "true strike" bow. Since a quickened true strike requires a 5th-level slot, I made the bow +3 (since a 9th-level caster is required). +3 Quickened True-Strike Longbow This weapon appears to be a standard +3 longbow in all respects; however, as a free action three times per day, the archer speaks a command word and receives a +20 on his first attack in that round. CL 9th; Craft Weapons & Armor; true strike; Price 100,275 The character certainly pays for the ability, and it's still limited to three single attacks per day. And if the DM is managing his campaign right, the PCs won't have the chance to even make this type of weapon until they're 11th or 12th level. :) I don't see anything wrong with that.
Loren Pechtel 04-22-05, 12:00 AM	My first attempt at creating a magical item, so I'm sure it has a flaw in it somewhere, that I just can't find. someone please tell me there's a flaw, it seems WAY too good to be true. I wanted to make a +1 Longbow with the ability to cast True Strike 3/day So by my figuring, the base price is just under 4000gp Weapon bonus (Enchantment) +1 = Bonus squared x 2000 = 2000gp Command word activated = caster level x spell level x 1800 = 1800gp -Charges per day 3 = 1800 * 3/5 = 1080 -Multiple Different abilities = 1080 x 1.5 = 1620 Weapon bonus + command word ability = 2000 + 1620 = 3620gp And +375 for masterwork bow = 3995gp That seems incredibly cheap to me for such an item... surely I have gone wrong somewhere, someone please show me where? By my take the flaw is you underpowered it. Before considering the formulas to price you should look for similar items to compare it to. There is one: A bow that gives true strike at will instead of 3/day. Cost, 2000gp. Combining this with a +1 bow I get 2000 (+1) + 3000 (true strike 2000 * 1.5) + 375 = 5375 for a +1 bow that lets you use true strike at will. I would *NOT* consider this a cheesy item, as it has the same drawback that true strike does--you must use a standard action to activate it. Thus you give up half of your attacks to gain the benefit. Basically it lets an otherwise basically ineffective character hit every other round. What's so overwhelming about that??
ShiverTheBard 04-22-05, 12:53 AM	Thus you give up half of your attacks to gain the benefit. Basically it lets an otherwise basically ineffective character hit every other round. What's so overwhelming about that?? Because of people like me :schemes:. The CO boards have given birth to many a scary thing that would make the most ardent roleplayer shiver. Though there is a bow in Sword and Fist that allows you to cast True Strike an infinite number of times requiring a Standard Action to do so. As well, in the A&EG there are nunchaku that use True Strike whenever you take a Standard Action to swing them round your head. The problem comes when you can sacrifice everything for damage and still hit because of that +20.
epifreak 04-22-05, 03:21 AM	cure minor wounds!!! As in the spell that cures 1hp :confused: How?
Purkake 04-22-05, 08:43 AM	Continious CMW item to get real cheap fast healing 1.
Maraxus 04-22-05, 08:49 AM	Because the Belt of cure minor wounds, comand word activated, unlimited use costs only 900 gp (The wealth of a 2nd level character ;)) and makes sure, the party is never cought with hit points below the maximum. Okay, when you become higher level, you might want to improve this too cure lesser, but even the minor wounds heals 600 HP the hour (1 point each action, 10 actions the minute, 600 the hour). Even my last group in the 10th levels could have used such a thing (Had only a paladin-healer) 900 gp - the best investment ever - if the dm allows it.
Enaloindir 04-22-05, 09:16 AM	As I said before, most continuous or use-activated magic items are just "a bit" overpowered ;) Enaloindir
Aubri 04-22-05, 10:36 AM	Basically it lets an otherwise basically ineffective character hit every other round. What's so overwhelming about that?? Remember, this is an item, not a mage casting the spell--a fighter can get the same +20 by saying the command word. It's overpowered because there's an unbelievable number of things you can do to boost your damage on one shot. Just off the top of my head: - Sneak Attack - Any spell an Arcane Archer chooses to channel - Slaying arrows - Anything with an expanded crit range, especially if it's also Flaming Burst (It's practically an auto-confirm.) - Death Attack - Poison I'm sure you could come up with a further laundry list looking at Complete classes, spells, and so on. Generally, anything that relies on a successful weapon attack becomes automatically successful. This isn't normally a problem because, as you point out, arcane casters have lousy attack bonus. Even if the character dips into Wizard for a level to get True Strike, they only get it once a day and the Wizard level delays their further abilities. A Bow of True Striking at will would essentially allow them to do it EVERY time they use their special power, plus any time they thought they might need a really high roll to hit. Say bye-bye to your big, hard-to-hit NPCs...
Kaboth 04-22-05, 10:51 AM	Continious CMW item to get real cheap fast healing 1. You cant make a continous CMW items because it has no duration, it would have to be use activated. Read the sub notes on continous items below the table.
Aubri 04-22-05, 11:12 AM	You could still make one that gives you 1 hp/turn as long as you keep activating it.
Kaboth 04-22-05, 11:25 AM	You could still make one that gives you 1 hp/turn as long as you keep activating it. True but you would still need a standard action to activate it and using it combat would not be as good. Still a decent cheap item especially to stabilize fallen comrades.
solbergb 04-22-05, 04:18 PM	Remember, this is an item, not a mage casting the spell--a fighter can get the same +20 by saying the command word. It's overpowered because there's an unbelievable number of things you can do to boost your damage on one shot. Just off the top of my head: And none of them are any better than just full attacking for two rounds, instead of casting a spell one round and firing one shot one round. *shrug*. - Sneak Attack Or you could sneak attack with an entire volley of arrows this round and next round. - Any spell an Arcane Archer chooses to channel True, but an arcane archer can do the same thing with a 25gp scroll, should he choose to not rack truestrike in his head. Plus imbue arrow is a 1/day trick. - Slaying arrows Or you could shoot a volley of slaying arrows with a far higher chance of the fort save failing. - Anything with an expanded crit range, especially if it's also Flaming Burst (It's practically an auto-confirm.) Or you could shoot 8 shots instead of 4 (and of those 4 only one is truestriked) and likely crit at least once anyway...plus do a lot more damage because the rest of the shots do damage too. - Death Attack Assassins have truestrike on their list anyway, they can use a 25gp scroll or have it as spell known. - Poison See "Slaying arrow". Works better with more actual hits, instead of trying to make the guy fail a single saving throw. Plus if he fails several, the effects are cumulative. Losing a whole combat action is pretty much only a good call if you are almost certain to miss without it. Which most bow users...aren't. Unless they suck at using a bow in which chase they won't get much out of the spell. A 3/day truestrike bow is fine, because the archer is activating the spell instead of shooting. A 3/day quickened truestrike bow is also fine, because it is pretty hideously expensive and still only works on one attack a round. An unlimited use quickened truestrike bow is probably a touch undercosted, since +20 on one of your shots each round and defeat concealment (usually the lowest iterative shot) should be more expensive than 5/3 the 3/day cost. At minimum 36000gp for the enhancment (2000*5*9*at least 4 because that's the round/level multiplier and it is a one-round spell) is half the gold of a level 20 character. So you are practically talking about an epic weapon anyway, even if it is only a +1 bow.
Aubri 04-22-05, 04:42 PM	This isn't really the place to argue this, but for the sake of argument: Losing a whole combat action is pretty much only a good call if you are almost certain to miss without it. Which most bow users...aren't. Unless they suck at using a bow in which chase they won't get much out of the spell. It's true, it's not as grossly broken as, say, permanent +20 to hit, but it's still something the DM needs to think hard about allowing... especially if he's using a lot of concealment/invisibility-loving creatures. Notes: Scratch Imbue Arrow and Death Attack from that list--I forgot the archer could only do it once a day, and the Death Attack only works in melee anyway. You'd definitely want to specify the next attack *with this bow* gets the +20, tho...
Loren Pechtel 04-22-05, 11:43 PM	Because of people like me :schemes:. The CO boards have given birth to many a scary thing that would make the most ardent roleplayer shiver. Though there is a bow in Sword and Fist that allows you to cast True Strike an infinite number of times requiring a Standard Action to do so. As well, in the A&EG there are nunchaku that use True Strike whenever you take a Standard Action to swing them round your head. The problem comes when you can sacrifice everything for damage and still hit because of that +20. Remember, power attack is limited to your attack bonus. Even on a melee weapon I don't see it being a big problem.
Loren Pechtel 04-22-05, 11:46 PM	Continious CMW item to get real cheap fast healing 1. Now, that brings to mind a rock I saw last month. 136 tons of what looked like swiss cheese. Although if you're going to go that route, CLW costs twice as much but gives an average of 5.5 points/round.
Loren Pechtel 04-22-05, 11:48 PM	Even if the character dips into Wizard for a level to get True Strike, they only get it once a day and the Wizard level delays their further abilities. A Bow of True Striking at will would essentially allow them to do it EVERY time they use their special power, plus any time they thought they might need a really high roll to hit. Say bye-bye to your big, hard-to-hit NPCs... Pearls of power. He can recover that true strike between each battle.
Loren Pechtel 04-22-05, 11:54 PM	And none of them are any better than just full attacking for two rounds, instead of casting a spell one round and firing one shot one round. *shrug*. Actually, you get the rest of your normal attacks in the round you attack. You're only giving up half of your attacks in exchange for the one that most likely hits. An unlimited use quickened truestrike bow is probably a touch undercosted, since +20 on one of your shots each round and defeat concealment (usually the lowest iterative shot) should be more expensive than 5/3 the 3/day cost. At minimum 36000gp for the enhancment (2000*5*9*at least 4 because that's the round/level multiplier and it is a one-round spell) is half the gold of a level 20 character. So you are practically talking about an epic weapon anyway, even if it is only a +1 bow. My general philosophy is that unlimited/uncharged is presumed unacceptable. Exceptions are made for the permissible cases, otherwise 5/day = 5/day, not unlimited. If you want 10/day you pay twice as much. Quickened true strike doesn't seem to me to be something acceptable for unlimited. I'd make you pay for each use/day you want. Incidently, you missed a zero in that price.