+1 Stat Enhancers [Archive] - Wizards Community

+1 Stat Enhancers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ChimericalWolf
04-26-07, 03:33 PM These are the ultimate cheese, but I have some people I'm playing with trying to convince the DM to let them have these.

And I can't find anything in the books that says they can't! Help me, Wizards Boards!

What is clear in my head, it seems is not so clear when other's read it.

By +1 Stat Enhancers, I mean magic items, such as the Headband of Intellect, or Gauntlets of Strength, which, unlike the ones in the DMG, give a +1, or other odd, bonus.

For example, if a wizard were to wear a HoI+1, and had an intelligence of 17, this item would boost him up to an 18.

I recall reading, somewhere, the explanation for not having these items, but I can't seem to find it.
RobbyPants
04-26-07, 03:38 PM And I can't find anything in the books that says they can't! Help me, Wizards Boards!
Well, the correct approach should be to look for anything in the books that say they can. The PHB has a list of acceptable familiars, and none of these boost their ability scores.

As you said, this would be the ultimate cheese. That right there is why they haven't been published. Note how the toad changed from 3.0 to 3.5 (+2 Con -> +3 HP).

EDIT:
I forgot how to read!!! :eek: Move along... Nothing to see here...
Caylin
04-26-07, 03:42 PM Why is it that cheesy to you? A +2 item is only 4k.... I get that they can save a few gp if they a a naturally uneven stat but whats the harm. Instead of letting them have it at 1k you can just say2-3k so they don´t save that much if you feel its necessary.
ChimericalWolf
04-26-07, 03:44 PM Well, the correct approach should be to look for anything in the books that say they can.

Magic Item Creation Guidelines in the DMG gives the formula at (((Bonus)^2) x 1000gp).

So, by the Guidelines, you can.
RobbyPants
04-26-07, 03:48 PM Magic Item Creation Guidelines in the DMG gives the formula at (((Bonus)^2) x 1000gp).

So, by the Guidelines, you can.
Sorry, somewhere between me reading your post, and actually posting, I forgot how to read! :eek:

I don't know how, but I thought that the topic of the thread was familars that granted +1 to an ability score! I'll get back to you after I re-complete elementry school! :P

Yeah, back to your regular topic, odd ability score items could work just fine, according to the rules.
Mooncalf
04-26-07, 03:52 PM I find the OP's question to be rather undefined. What +1 stat enhancer are you talking about? +1 to an attribute? Skill? Attack? Is it supposed to be a permanent increase or an item?

The DMG states pretty clearly how much any item boosting specific stats cost. If they want these, they'll have to pay for it. I don't consider it 'cheese' to pay 16,000 gp for a headband of +4 int.

If they want it permanently without a worn item... it's called 'inherent bonus', and the rules are explicit: you can only get it up to +5 on abilities and it takes certain very expensive items to get it.

But your question is in fact very badly defined. What is it they want to have, how do they expect to get it, and why do you consider it 'ultimate cheese'?
bondious
04-26-07, 03:54 PM Why is it that cheesy to you? A +2 item is only 4k.... I get that they can save a few gp if they a a naturally uneven stat but whats the harm. Instead of letting them have it at 1k you can just say2-3k so they don´t save that much if you feel its necessary.

The formlua for making an ability-boosting item is "bonus squared x 1,000gp". SO, if someone wanted "Gauntlets of Half-Ogre Power" (+1 Str), they'd only pay 1,000gp (1 squared x 1,000gp), not 2,000-3,000gp. To folks who have an odd numbered stat, that mere 1,000gp will boost them up into the next bracket at 1/4 the standard price. But then the arguement can be made that the same character who uses a +1 boosting item will then have to pay for a +3 item to go up the next bracket, then a +5 after that. The thing is, though, that character will consistantly pay less than an even numbered person using the +2/+4/+6 items in the DMG.

I don't have a problem with minor items that grant a +1 boost, as these have very little impact on a game, but I can see how it could be seen as unfair if Player A is paying only 25,000gp for a +5 item who gets the same benefit as Player B who is paying 36,000gp for a +6 item. So, for me, I tend to keep all my players using the items from the DMG, and refrain from giving them any odd numbered ability boosters. The game generally tries to make thing even. Things like XP and treasure are USUALLY divided up evenly, so it doesn't do for something like this to be uneven.
ChimericalWolf
04-26-07, 03:57 PM OP edited for clarity.
Mooncalf
04-26-07, 03:59 PM Even if you think it's ridiculously cheap at 1000 for +1, it's not like it'll make a significant change. Once they realize they'll need a bigger boost, they'll have to upgrade the item or buy/find a better one. Either way, they'll pay the full sum in the end. (Do remember that enhancement bonuses don't stack with each other... having a pile of +1 Str items is not going to help.)

Also, I would not recommend increasing the cost just to dissuade the players, that's just underhanded. Play by the proper numbers. DMs should not flaunt their ability to change things on a whim; it ruins the players' illusion of actually having control over their character.
Neutronium_Dragon
04-26-07, 04:05 PM Odd ability score items aren't in the game for the same reason that odd ability score modifiers are never given to races.

If you have a Dexterity of 12 and put on a +1 item, you get... no benefit.

If you have a Dexterity of 13 and put on a +1 item, you get the same benefit that the Dex 12 guy would require a +2 item to get.

On the other hand, a +2 item affects both of them equally (each gets an additional +1 Dex modifier).

In other words, they're only ever available at even values so that they can't be used for min-max cheese. This is design intent.
Bedevere
04-26-07, 04:26 PM There is one exception to this.

Strength.

Everyone benefits from strength increase, even by one point that doesnt affect your modifier. Carry capacity is increased.

OK, this is a really sucky benefit by comparison, but hey... :)
Nephlite
04-26-07, 04:38 PM Odd ability score items aren't in the game for the same reason that odd ability score modifiers are never given to races.

If you have a Dexterity of 12 and put on a +1 item, you get... no benefit.

If you have a Dexterity of 13 and put on a +1 item, you get the same benefit that the Dex 12 guy would require a +2 item to get.

On the other hand, a +2 item affects both of them equally (each gets an additional +1 Dex modifier).

In other words, they're only ever available at even values so that they can't be used for min-max cheese. This is design intent.

Actually even odd scores are good: many feats require odd scores. PA, Combat Expertise, Dodge, etc.
MareltEkiran
04-26-07, 04:38 PM Well, so does DEX, because if two people tie in an initiative roll, it is resolved by the highest base DEX score.

And for that matter, odd scores do make you more resistant to ability damage and drain. If you have a CON of 16 and take 5 points of CON damage, you lose 3 HP/HD. If your CON was 17, that loss is only 2.
pres_man
04-26-07, 05:32 PM These are the ultimate cheese, but I have some people I'm playing with trying to convince the DM to let them have these.
Why are they "ultimate cheese"? Surely a +2 item is better than a +1 item, if merely for the fact that you can take 1 point more ability damage in that stat. Besides which the issues of feats needing odd values, STR boosted by 1 as instant effect to anyone (higher carrying capacity), CON boosted by 1 can effect anyone (1 more round of holding your breath), 1 boost to a spellcasting attribute can give access to 1 higher level spells. And almost everyone about an equal number of even and odd stats if they rolled, not to mention increasing abilities every fourth level. A +odd item is not overly cheesy at all, the only real legitimate issue is cost. Obviously a +1 item is not as valuable as a +2 item, thus it should be priced less, the question then is only how much less.

And I can't find anything in the books that says they can't! Help me, Wizards Boards!
No, but the item creation guidelines are just that guidelines. They should not be followed religiously, but instead each group should evaluate a given item based on its abilities and compare it to already existing items.

For example, if a wizard were to wear a HoI+1, and had an intelligence of 17, this item would boost him up to an 18.
And some argue "Its not fair that they could boost their score to an 18 with only a cheaper +1 item, while a 16 INT wizard has to spend more on a +2 item". But that is missing the bigger issue. A wizard with a 17 INT should be easier to get to 18 INT than a 16 INT wizard.

In the end it comes down to price, and that is where the balancing issue should be placed. For myself I price these items as such:
Even Modifier = (enhancement bonus)^2*1000
Odd Modifier = (enhancement bonus)(enhancement bonus + 1)*1000

So a +1 item would cost 2000 gp, +3 would be 12000 gp, +5 would be 30000 gp. Of course my group usually pays to have their already existing items increased (paying the difference), thus someone might get a +1 item even if it does not make a big difference at the moment, just so they aren't having to carry around the extra 2000 gp waiting until they get enough to make it a +2 item.
Bedevere
04-26-07, 05:40 PM All true, but the only stat where a +1 is directly measurable, without outside forces, or contests against someone of almost identical skills, is Strength, and only for carry capacity.

Everything else requires a load of stuff that I am not willing to undergo when shopping for cheap magic items. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ChimericalWolf 04-26-07, 03:33 PM	These are the ultimate cheese, but I have some people I'm playing with trying to convince the DM to let them have these. And I can't find anything in the books that says they can't! Help me, Wizards Boards! What is clear in my head, it seems is not so clear when other's read it. By +1 Stat Enhancers, I mean magic items, such as the Headband of Intellect, or Gauntlets of Strength, which, unlike the ones in the DMG, give a +1, or other odd, bonus. For example, if a wizard were to wear a HoI+1, and had an intelligence of 17, this item would boost him up to an 18. I recall reading, somewhere, the explanation for not having these items, but I can't seem to find it.
RobbyPants 04-26-07, 03:38 PM	And I can't find anything in the books that says they can't! Help me, Wizards Boards! Well, the correct approach should be to look for anything in the books that say they can. The PHB has a list of acceptable familiars, and none of these boost their ability scores. As you said, this would be the ultimate cheese. That right there is why they haven't been published. Note how the toad changed from 3.0 to 3.5 (+2 Con -> +3 HP). EDIT: I forgot how to read!!! :eek: Move along... Nothing to see here...
Caylin 04-26-07, 03:42 PM	Why is it that cheesy to you? A +2 item is only 4k.... I get that they can save a few gp if they a a naturally uneven stat but whats the harm. Instead of letting them have it at 1k you can just say2-3k so they don´t save that much if you feel its necessary.
ChimericalWolf 04-26-07, 03:44 PM	Well, the correct approach should be to look for anything in the books that say they can. Magic Item Creation Guidelines in the DMG gives the formula at (((Bonus)^2) x 1000gp). So, by the Guidelines, you can.
RobbyPants 04-26-07, 03:48 PM	Magic Item Creation Guidelines in the DMG gives the formula at (((Bonus)^2) x 1000gp). So, by the Guidelines, you can. Sorry, somewhere between me reading your post, and actually posting, I forgot how to read! :eek: I don't know how, but I thought that the topic of the thread was familars that granted +1 to an ability score! I'll get back to you after I re-complete elementry school! :P Yeah, back to your regular topic, odd ability score items could work just fine, according to the rules.
Mooncalf 04-26-07, 03:52 PM	I find the OP's question to be rather undefined. What +1 stat enhancer are you talking about? +1 to an attribute? Skill? Attack? Is it supposed to be a permanent increase or an item? The DMG states pretty clearly how much any item boosting specific stats cost. If they want these, they'll have to pay for it. I don't consider it 'cheese' to pay 16,000 gp for a headband of +4 int. If they want it permanently without a worn item... it's called 'inherent bonus', and the rules are explicit: you can only get it up to +5 on abilities and it takes certain very expensive items to get it. But your question is in fact very badly defined. What is it they want to have, how do they expect to get it, and why do you consider it 'ultimate cheese'?
bondious 04-26-07, 03:54 PM	Why is it that cheesy to you? A +2 item is only 4k.... I get that they can save a few gp if they a a naturally uneven stat but whats the harm. Instead of letting them have it at 1k you can just say2-3k so they don´t save that much if you feel its necessary. The formlua for making an ability-boosting item is "bonus squared x 1,000gp". SO, if someone wanted "Gauntlets of Half-Ogre Power" (+1 Str), they'd only pay 1,000gp (1 squared x 1,000gp), not 2,000-3,000gp. To folks who have an odd numbered stat, that mere 1,000gp will boost them up into the next bracket at 1/4 the standard price. But then the arguement can be made that the same character who uses a +1 boosting item will then have to pay for a +3 item to go up the next bracket, then a +5 after that. The thing is, though, that character will consistantly pay less than an even numbered person using the +2/+4/+6 items in the DMG. I don't have a problem with minor items that grant a +1 boost, as these have very little impact on a game, but I can see how it could be seen as unfair if Player A is paying only 25,000gp for a +5 item who gets the same benefit as Player B who is paying 36,000gp for a +6 item. So, for me, I tend to keep all my players using the items from the DMG, and refrain from giving them any odd numbered ability boosters. The game generally tries to make thing even. Things like XP and treasure are USUALLY divided up evenly, so it doesn't do for something like this to be uneven.
ChimericalWolf 04-26-07, 03:57 PM	OP edited for clarity.
Mooncalf 04-26-07, 03:59 PM	Even if you think it's ridiculously cheap at 1000 for +1, it's not like it'll make a significant change. Once they realize they'll need a bigger boost, they'll have to upgrade the item or buy/find a better one. Either way, they'll pay the full sum in the end. (Do remember that enhancement bonuses don't stack with each other... having a pile of +1 Str items is not going to help.) Also, I would not recommend increasing the cost just to dissuade the players, that's just underhanded. Play by the proper numbers. DMs should not flaunt their ability to change things on a whim; it ruins the players' illusion of actually having control over their character.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-26-07, 04:05 PM	Odd ability score items aren't in the game for the same reason that odd ability score modifiers are never given to races. If you have a Dexterity of 12 and put on a +1 item, you get... no benefit. If you have a Dexterity of 13 and put on a +1 item, you get the same benefit that the Dex 12 guy would require a +2 item to get. On the other hand, a +2 item affects both of them equally (each gets an additional +1 Dex modifier). In other words, they're only ever available at even values so that they can't be used for min-max cheese. This is design intent.
Bedevere 04-26-07, 04:26 PM	There is one exception to this. Strength. Everyone benefits from strength increase, even by one point that doesnt affect your modifier. Carry capacity is increased. OK, this is a really sucky benefit by comparison, but hey... :)
Nephlite 04-26-07, 04:38 PM	Odd ability score items aren't in the game for the same reason that odd ability score modifiers are never given to races. If you have a Dexterity of 12 and put on a +1 item, you get... no benefit. If you have a Dexterity of 13 and put on a +1 item, you get the same benefit that the Dex 12 guy would require a +2 item to get. On the other hand, a +2 item affects both of them equally (each gets an additional +1 Dex modifier). In other words, they're only ever available at even values so that they can't be used for min-max cheese. This is design intent. Actually even odd scores are good: many feats require odd scores. PA, Combat Expertise, Dodge, etc.
MareltEkiran 04-26-07, 04:38 PM	Well, so does DEX, because if two people tie in an initiative roll, it is resolved by the highest base DEX score. And for that matter, odd scores do make you more resistant to ability damage and drain. If you have a CON of 16 and take 5 points of CON damage, you lose 3 HP/HD. If your CON was 17, that loss is only 2.
pres_man 04-26-07, 05:32 PM	These are the ultimate cheese, but I have some people I'm playing with trying to convince the DM to let them have these. Why are they "ultimate cheese"? Surely a +2 item is better than a +1 item, if merely for the fact that you can take 1 point more ability damage in that stat. Besides which the issues of feats needing odd values, STR boosted by 1 as instant effect to anyone (higher carrying capacity), CON boosted by 1 can effect anyone (1 more round of holding your breath), 1 boost to a spellcasting attribute can give access to 1 higher level spells. And almost everyone about an equal number of even and odd stats if they rolled, not to mention increasing abilities every fourth level. A +odd item is not overly cheesy at all, the only real legitimate issue is cost. Obviously a +1 item is not as valuable as a +2 item, thus it should be priced less, the question then is only how much less. And I can't find anything in the books that says they can't! Help me, Wizards Boards! No, but the item creation guidelines are just that guidelines. They should not be followed religiously, but instead each group should evaluate a given item based on its abilities and compare it to already existing items. For example, if a wizard were to wear a HoI+1, and had an intelligence of 17, this item would boost him up to an 18. And some argue "Its not fair that they could boost their score to an 18 with only a cheaper +1 item, while a 16 INT wizard has to spend more on a +2 item". But that is missing the bigger issue. A wizard with a 17 INT should be easier to get to 18 INT than a 16 INT wizard. In the end it comes down to price, and that is where the balancing issue should be placed. For myself I price these items as such: Even Modifier = (enhancement bonus)^21000 Odd Modifier = (enhancement bonus)(enhancement bonus + 1)1000 So a +1 item would cost 2000 gp, +3 would be 12000 gp, +5 would be 30000 gp. Of course my group usually pays to have their already existing items increased (paying the difference), thus someone might get a +1 item even if it does not make a big difference at the moment, just so they aren't having to carry around the extra 2000 gp waiting until they get enough to make it a +2 item.
Bedevere 04-26-07, 05:40 PM	All true, but the only stat where a +1 is directly measurable, without outside forces, or contests against someone of almost identical skills, is Strength, and only for carry capacity. Everything else requires a load of stuff that I am not willing to undergo when shopping for cheap magic items. :)