Post/Author/DateTime	Post
redkite 06-26-05, 03:54 PM	+1 Stat items (+1 Belt of Strength), or just plain odd numbered stat bonus items. Are they allowed. The rules certainly give you a cost for them (bonus squared x 1000gp), yet some strongly believe they are not allowed (mainly because they dont benefit everyone equally). Any verifiable rules out there (not house rules or opinions, but writing from official sources) showing that these are not legal items - please state book and page numbers.
Dalthbar 06-26-05, 04:15 PM	I haven't seen anything that says that they are not legal. I believe we always see even numbers for a very simple reason - an even numbered bonus gives 1/2 that number as an ability bonus. It's just simple math. A +1 bump may not do a damned thing for someone depending on what their actual stat is. If it's +2, then no matter what number their stat is, they get a +1 mod from that. But again, I haven't ever seen anything that says you can't have a +1 bonus to a stat and I don't think it'd make sense to ever impose that rule.
sir_argenon 06-26-05, 05:25 PM	I haven't seen anything that says that they are not legal. I believe we always see even numbers for a very simple reason - an even numbered bonus gives 1/2 that number as an ability bonus. It's just simple math. A +1 bump may not do a damned thing for someone depending on what their actual stat is. If it's +2, then no matter what number their stat is, they get a +1 mod from that. But again, I haven't ever seen anything that says you can't have a +1 bonus to a stat and I don't think it'd make sense to ever impose that rule. very nicely put Dalthbar. It doesnt say that you CANNOT have a +1 in the rules in any way. i'm sure that it was written so that its usually an even bonus so that you can always get a benefit from it, no matter what your present score is.
ThoughtfulOwl 06-26-05, 05:25 PM	There is no rule against them; they are unofficially shunned (I won't say deprecated) for the same rationale against odd racial modifiers, but note that the various tomes and manuals that grant insight bonuses breach that same rationale! ;)
aelryinth 06-26-05, 05:35 PM	They are shunned because they will be used by stat-maxers to save money. With the +2, no matter what your stat is, everyone who uses it gains the same benefit. With a +1, the item is only useful to those with an 'odd' ability score, which defeats the purpose of the item. ==Aelryinth
TheMagister 06-26-05, 06:04 PM	Sorry, red, but I have to go with Aelrynith on this one. I won't make this decision because I deny the plausibility of the item, but because of its faint odor of munchkinism. Again, I'm not saying that they're not allowed, or not possible. I'd actually allow them as a DM if the player crafted it himself because the character could ?instinctively? know his limitations and how much of a bonus he would need to gain a benefit. As for just picking up a +stat item in town at Ye Olde Magick Shoppe or finding one as random treasure, you'd almost HAVE to make them an even numbered bonus so that the whole party could potentially benefit from its use. TM
redkite 06-26-05, 06:57 PM	I use them mainly in two places: 1. In characters as they progress. I start a character at level one with an even modifier on its main attribute (say int for Wizard). At 4th level, I get the +1 to stat, and the money at that time makes a +1 item a very affordable proposition. The same goes for level 12 and a +3 item. I dont think this falls under munchkin, but good sense. I dont think I am abusing a rule, but just making the most of stat progression. 2. For items bought for animal companions or for Polymorphers/Wild Shapers. So many creatures have odd numbered stats (look at Dire Wolf or Troll), that it makes sense to have these items to square off the WotC stats. If this is munchkin, again I apologize, but I also believe that it is garbage that WotC does this to "monster" stats. But I will point out that both of you nay sayers are disallowing for "munchkin" reasons and not because the rules dont allow it. Let me know if you really believe the above uses are munchkin.
redkite 06-26-05, 07:08 PM	As for just picking up a +stat item in town at Ye Olde Magick Shoppe or finding one as random treasure, you'd almost HAVE to make them an even numbered bonus so that the whole party could potentially benefit from its use.I guess this attitude is what I find the most puzzling. If you have a balanced party, there will always be items that benefit one character over another? I mean, your fighter/cleric types might drool over a nice magic large metal shield while the mage/sorcerer/druid go woop de doo. So why are stat items the exception to this? Why must they always give everyone the same benefit? Also, on the munchkin front, it can be used for stat building, but there are only so many magic item body slots. And if they use it in a primary stat, the stat gains at every fourth level will necesitate them to buy the even ones along their level progression anyways. So the only real issue are the non-primary stats. Personally, I dont think it really is that game unbalancing.
Dalthbar 06-26-05, 07:14 PM	Also, on the munchkin front, it can be used for stat building, but there are only so many magic item body slots. And if they use it in a primary stat, the stat gains at every fourth level will necesitate them to buy the even ones along their level progression anyways. So the only real issue are the non-primary stats. Personally, I dont think it really is that game unbalancing. No, it's certainly not going to break the game. But anything that bumps stats directly can have a benefit for -anyone-. The system is such that you do have a wide variety of skills and actions that run the gambit of what stats influence them. I could list out some biggies, but with a little thought we can all think of some. But since they are such hot items, it's probably better if it's made a non-issue by having an item that doesn't passively exclude some people because they happen to fall on the wrong stat number that doesn't give a direct bonus with +1 to a stat. That way, these items (when found as treasure) tend to go to the people that need them, not just someone that can "make a case" for it. While it doesn't add a ton more "balance" to the game, it certainly helps things run smoother in-game and tends to mirror the game mechanics of "every two points = +1 bonus". By all means, add them to your game - I don't think anyone will say it's a "bad" thing. Just realize that in many cases, they should be a minority because it doesn't work as well with the system.
Caterane 06-26-05, 07:41 PM	I have some experience with these items... In the Core Coliseum, these items are allowed albeit at a credit cost (the CoCo currency) to keep them in check. So far these items have been no problem at all. They are perfectly valid and core.
Nyferto 06-27-05, 08:08 AM	No they're not core, because they're not listed. You have to custom create them, and that's the real question you should've asked. No-one said they didn't/couldn't exist, just that they're not core option you can just buy up. Real question: Are they core? Obviously they aren't because they're not listed.
Santrilla 06-27-05, 08:22 AM	Well, the items aren't specifically listed, but rules are presented in the DMG for making items with ability boosts. The formula given, bonus squared x 1000gp, allows for a cost to be worked out for a +1 ability boost item. I guess you'd call them sub-core. :P Semi-related question: I've never been fully certain of this, but can you use boosted abilities as feat prerequisites? For example, if you have a strength of 12 and you put on some +1 gauntlets of strength, can you use your modified strength score of 13 as a pre-requisite for Power Attack? (Obviously if this is the case you'd lose the benefits of that feat if you removed the item.)
tarkin 06-27-05, 09:14 AM	Yes, you may use magic items to qualify for pre-reqs, and (as you realized), you only qualify when the magic item is on. The most probably reason for why WoTC decided to allow this is "familiars". Familiars grant the feat Alertness when they are close. WoTC decided that this would qualify for pre-req purposes as it felt stupid to force Wizards to take a feat that they all got from their familiar. But as familiars may wander afar or die, they put the rule that if you don't have the pre-req, you lose the thing your pre-req granted. Net result, magic items can qualify you for other things.
Dalthbar 06-27-05, 09:44 AM	The logical extension to that is asking about magical spells that grant bonuses (Owl's Wisdom, Fox's Cunning... etc.) to stats. That raises the question of "When do you actually 'gain a level' and when do you 'apply feats'?" Since the spell would have to be in effect at that very moment. Or, what if you have a charge-based magical item or only allowed use "X rounds/day". Can you activate that, take your feat and then just use that feat when you use that magical item in combat or whenever? I'm rather prone to head down the "you can't do that" road for those circumstances, but on many levels, it's not that different. Anyone care to justify how they feel one way or another about that? It may prove an interesting conversation.
High Octane 06-27-05, 10:13 AM	+1 stat items are metagaming.
ThoughtfulOwl 06-27-05, 10:27 AM	+1 stat items are metagaming. How so?
Santrilla 06-27-05, 11:15 AM	I suppose in order to make any use of a +1 item you'd have to inherently know that you were just below the threshold of being strong/fast/tough/smart/wise/sexy enough to make use of a certain feat. I wouldn't say that's metagaming. You can know that you're _just_ not strong enough to do something, and assume that you'd only need to increase your strength by a tiny amount.
Drachasor 06-27-05, 11:34 AM	I don't think this is a huge problem, so a mere +1 item isn't going to be too bad. Bah, this whole thing stems from the ability score sacred cow. If they had just gotten rid of the whole 3-18 nonesense, then ability scores could simply range from -4 to +4 for humans, with some races have +1 bonuses and -1 penalties. Or they even could have arranged the rest of the system to support ability scores ranging from 1 to 9 for a human. Either way you wouldn't have these oddities. Oh well. -Drachasor
ThoughtfulOwl 06-27-05, 11:42 AM	If they had just gotten rid of the whole 3-18 nonesense, then ability scores could simply range from -4 to +4 for humans, with some races have +1 bonuses and -1 penalties. Blue Rose/True20 from Green Ronin does this.
Nyferto 06-27-05, 12:27 PM	I suppose in order to make any use of a +1 item you'd have to inherently know that you were just below the threshold of being strong/fast/tough/smart/wise/sexy enough to make use of a certain feat. I wouldn't say that's metagaming. You can know that you're _just_ not strong enough to do something, and assume that you'd only need to increase your strength by a tiny amount. Stats are immaterial, and you can't know how strong enough you'd need to be to cleave someone... then again, would you really care unless the price was a real concearn? I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but it's not clearly a character decision. Well, the items aren't specifically listed, but rules are presented in the DMG for making items with ability boosts. The formula given, bonus squared x 1000gp, allows for a cost to be worked out for a +1 ability boost item. I guess you'd call them sub-core. The DM has a formulae for calculating the price, he doesn't have a method of generating such an item. There's no such thing as sub-core, just guidelines for customising material. In this instance, the pricing isn't reliable, people would have to test and see if it gave them a benefit, ultimately reducing the value of such an item to a marketeer.
High Octane 06-27-05, 12:43 PM	Stats are not tangible nor measurable in game. THATS why its metagaming. The only exception is strength, which actually is quite the exception since +1 changes your weight allowance in any case. As for everything else, the effects are subtle. ESPECIALLY in a +1 case.
makeshiftwings 06-29-05, 01:35 PM	Stats are not tangible nor measurable in game. THATS why its metagaming. The only exception is strength, which actually is quite the exception since +1 changes your weight allowance in any case. As for everything else, the effects are subtle. ESPECIALLY in a +1 case. I disagree... someone having a 12Int and being completely unable to comprehend the idea of Combat Expertise putting on a +1 int item and suddenly being able to become a master at Combat Expertise and other int-related feats would certainly notice the difference. But I think if people are going to say that odd-numbered stat bonuses are "evil", then why are you playing a game that includes odd-numbered stats? I agree that if you're going to enforce that everything needs to be even-numbered, you should just pretend that the stats go from -4 to +4, otherwise you're just hurting everything that does have an odd-numbered stat for whatever reason.
ServantOfTheLordYawgmoth 06-29-05, 02:55 PM	There is one very simple reason why I would not allow such an item: It does not actually function as a +1 stat item. Either you have an odd ability score, in which case it gives you the same effect as a +2 item and should be priced accordingly, or you have an even score, in which case it (usually) gives the same effect as a +0 item and, as such, should benearly worthless. While there are plenty of arguments as to why it should work (most notably the feats that require a 13 in a particular score) it seems that for the most part these items are simply a way to get an effectively +2 item at half price.
redkite 06-29-05, 09:56 PM	And when your 4th level wizard improves his Int from 18 to 19, this is effectively a 0 bonus, so we should take that away too. The game gives us +1 stat modifiers every 4th level. So everyone, at one time or another, will have odd stats (munchkin or not). Why is there no benefit - because magic is the great equalizer. And dont forget, to improve a +1 item to +2, it costs 3000gp, a savings of 1000gp over the brand new article (+3 to +4, +5 to +6 give bigger savings). They are all useful even if they dont add enough to that even stat.
High Octane 06-30-05, 09:36 AM	I would allow a +3 item long before I would allow a +1 item. It is just too subtle a difference to notice. As for the combat expertise idea, noticing THAT would also be metagaming. See it as this way, you are trying to learn this expertise. If you have 12 int, you are close, but just cant quite get it. Now in the field, if you put a +1 int cap on do you think all of a sudden you go "EUREKA! I understand it all now!" Hell no! But if you put it on and went through the training for combat expertise again, you would just BARELY manage to retain all you need. You would think maybe you were just stressed at the time and are a bit more clear-headed.
Drachasor 06-30-05, 09:50 AM	There is one very simple reason why I would not allow such an item: It does not actually function as a +1 stat item. Either you have an odd ability score, in which case it gives you the same effect as a +2 item and should be priced accordingly, or you have an even score, in which case it (usually) gives the same effect as a +0 item and, as such, should benearly worthless. While there are plenty of arguments as to why it should work (most notably the feats that require a 13 in a particular score) it seems that for the most part these items are simply a way to get an effectively +2 item at half price. Yeah, those players are being real jerks having odd-numbered stats. You definitely should punish them for such audacity by encouraging them to min-max to even numbered stats, since you'll just screw them over if they bothered with anything else during character creation. Certainly this messes with decision-making during a point-buy, and likely during rolling too. Those people with odd-numbered Stats don't need a +2 item to improve themselves. Your arguement is like saying someone increasing their Stat from 19 to 20 is like them getting a +2 increase for 1 point, hence it shouldn't be allowed. If the game allows odd-numbered stats, then you are just going to have to work with and accept them as part of the system. -Drachasor
Drachasor 06-30-05, 09:56 AM	I would allow a +3 item long before I would allow a +1 item. It is just too subtle a difference to notice. As for the combat expertise idea, noticing THAT would also be metagaming. See it as this way, you are trying to learn this expertise. If you have 12 int, you are close, but just cant quite get it. Now in the field, if you put a +1 int cap on do you think all of a sudden you go "EUREKA! I understand it all now!" Hell no! But if you put it on and went through the training for combat expertise again, you would just BARELY manage to retain all you need. You would think maybe you were just stressed at the time and are a bit more clear-headed. Might as well say noticing any stat increase is metagaming. What's so big about a +2 ability increase that you'd notice? It would all relate to the fact you can do more than before. Just like +1 increases. But I guess people in the game noticing they can do more is metagaming. +1 any ability: You can withstand ability damage better and possibly manage Feats that you couldn't before. +1 Strength: You can lift more and drag more. +1 Spellcasting ability score: You can manage higher level spells. And for some people, a +1 item would give them a higher modifier and let them do a bit better on many things. Why doesn't it work on everyone exactly the same? Who knows? Certainly the people in the game world might not entirely understand why, but the could see that it IS. -Drachasor
ServantOfTheLordYawgmoth 06-30-05, 04:02 PM	Yeah, those players are being real jerks having odd-numbered stats. You definitely should punish them for such audacity by encouraging them to min-max to even numbered stats, since you'll just screw them over if they bothered with anything else during character creation. Certainly this messes with decision-making during a point-buy, and likely during rolling too. Those people with odd-numbered Stats don't need a +2 item to improve themselves. Your arguement is like saying someone increasing their Stat from 19 to 20 is like them getting a +2 increase for 1 point, hence it shouldn't be allowed. If the game allows odd-numbered stats, then you are just going to have to work with and accept them as part of the system. -Drachasor Punishing them? Really? So by forcing a player with 13 strength to spend the same amount of money as one with 12 strength for an improvement I'm punishing that character? And it will screw my players over if they don't have even-numbered stats? Absolutely amazing. I wonder why they haven't noticed this and complained about my tyrannical DMing. The point I am trying to make is that by the current rules it is already beneficial to have an odd-numbered stat. The reason is that it is higher than the even-numbered stat that provides the same bonus. Thus, at every fourth level, any odd stat can be added to in order to give you a higher bonus. I would much rather have an odd-numbered stat than an even one. If you then allow people with odd-numbered stats to gain an increase in their modifier for 1/4 the GP it takes someone with an even numbered stat... you've done the exact same thing that you're accusing me of doing with my tyrannical use of core rules. I think that this system actually makes very good use of the odd and even stats by adding the +1 at every fourth level. Because of this setup, a player can either increase the modifier on an odd stat, or turn an even stat into an odd one, essentially putting enough stock in that one stat that they're willing to spend eight levels to increase it. It creates a choice: long-term gain in an important stat, or short-term gain in a less important stat. And that, to me, makes the game more interesting. By making a cheap (and that's the key word that draws a distinction between this idea and the very expensive permanent items) +1 stat item, you're cheapening that investment in an even stat. Also, your last line rather confuses me. First, I have to work with them? I was under the impression that we were discussing which way of looking at the concept made the most sense, not DMing each other's game. I'll use whatever stats I please in my game, thank you very much. But secondly, I am confused because I do work with an accept odd-numbered stats in my D&D games. You see that, on my player's character sheet? That's a 13. 13 is an odd number. I accept that 13; it gives a +1 bonus. A 12 is even but also gives a +1 bonus, and I accept that too. I accept both the differences and similiarities between these numbers, and what each can and can't do. I like to think that I am very accepting of all numbers in my campaign. Except for those lower than three, of course. And 57. That 57 is such a jerk.
Tony Vargas 06-30-05, 04:23 PM	Odd numbered stats don't give you much - the breakpoint is at the even stats. Yet, in point buy, the cost of a stat goes up at 15 and 17, not 16 and 18. What do you get for paying double to get a 15 instead of 16? One point closer to 16. Often not much more than that. Why shouldn't the character with the 15 ever actually benefit from paying those extra 2 stat points compared to someone who point-shaved, and put those two stat points to some other even-numbered stat to get a bonus in that stat, at no loss of bonus in the 15? Also, consider that the maximum starting stat is 18 (before racial modifiers) - it's even - so is the maximum enhancement bonus, at +6. You're never going to cheese up a higher stat bonus (or the same bonus for less cost) by taking a +1 stat item and an odd stat, then you could get by just paying for the next even stat. If you take a 17, and a +5 item, for instance, your bonus from that stat is the same as a character with an 18 and a +4 item, but cost you more, or it's less than that of the 18 stat character with a +6 item (at less cost). Of course, you can add in level-ups and inherent bonuses - those both max out at 5, again, resulting in an even maximum possible stat. The only way to get an odd stat is to back off from the max, and that means not being able to quite match the bonus of the guy who took the even stat. I could see powergamers gravitating towards odd-bonus items, as a way to round-up an odd stat until such time as they can even-out the stat with a level up or inherent bonus, but I can't see anyone choosing odd stats with the intent of 'abusing' odd-bonus items. Quite the opposite: the existence of odd-bonus items might take some of the metagaming pressure to 'even out' as many of your stats as possible at chargen.
Centauri 06-30-05, 04:43 PM	+1 any ability: You can withstand ability damage better Thank you for bringing this up. It bears repeating. The character whose Con goes from 12 to 13 isn't going to gain more hit points, but he's also not going to lose any when he takes a point of Con damage.
Sithis 06-30-05, 05:28 PM	Punishing them? Really? So by forcing a player with 13 strength to spend the same amount of money as one with 12 strength for an improvement I'm punishing that character?Shouldn't someone with a 13 strength have an easier time of getting to that +2 bonus than someone with a 12 strength? One is already halfway there while the other has to jump an entire step. The primary purpose of odd stats is to be closer to the next even step. Whether it's a ability point from reaching level 4 or a magic item that gives a +1 bonus, the guy with the 13 is (and should be) able to benefit where the guy with the 12 does not.
Colmarr 06-30-05, 05:29 PM	And dont forget, to improve a +1 item to +2, it costs 3000gp, a savings of 1000gp over the brand new article (+3 to +4, +5 to +6 give bigger savings). I don't follow your logic here. If the PC has already paid 1000gp for the +1 stat item, and upgrades it to +2 at a cost of 3000gp, they've still paid a total of 4000gp. How is that a saving?
rks 06-30-05, 08:09 PM	The +1 item might have been found, saving the char gp when increasing it to +2... That's 1000 gp worth of saving. +1 items are not as useful as +2 items and could therefore be used more often by the DM, too.
tyranith_of_hextor 07-01-05, 12:31 AM	In my opinion, they should be strictly diallowed. The reason someone gets Gloves of Dexterity +2 is to increase their modifier for dexterity, strength, or whatever ability score (17 +3, 19 +4). Increasing the ability by a modifier point is awesome, and someone wanting to do that just so it would be cheaper, is bulls*** (17 +3, 18 +4). It matters whether your ability is even numbered or not. The reason someone would want to get that is just to make their ability modifier increase for a better attack role, save, skill check or spell DC. Making it cheaper so that they can increase another again is downright stupid. For example, a fighter with ability scores being 17, 15, 15, 14, 12, and 11 with 4,000 spare GP decides he wants to have a better attack role and damage modifier. +1 Belt of Giant strength. Hey! He has the gold! Why not Gloves of Dex +1, Amulet of Health +1 and Cloak of Cha +1 to go with! Hey, I just had four ability modifier increases for 4,000 GP! Sweet! :D **DM strangles PC to ground and a slight twitching motion comes from PC** :eek: To be realistic, he should have had to spend 4,000 to increase strength. A lot of things can come from an extra 3,000 GP. That's busted. :mad:
redkite 07-01-05, 02:21 AM	Then tyranith, that character hits a level evenly divisible by 4, +1 stat. But he has all the +1 stat items, so now he is odd again. Time to make the +1 into a +2 (time to pay the piper). At low levels this may give them an edge, but at high levels they are going to be buying up their stat items just like everyone else. And dont forget the limited magic slots available. If someone wants to spend them all on low cost items, so be it. And dont forget the negative side of the +1 item. If the friendly caster buffs you, you only get a +1 bonus overall since it doesn't stack with the +4 stat spell bonus. Characters with even stats and no stat item (too expensive) get +2 bonus overall, since they couldnt afford all those stat items.
Elthbert 07-01-05, 02:28 AM	Then tyranith, that character hits a level evenly divisible by 4, +1 stat. But he has all the +1 stat items, so now he is odd again. Time to make the +1 into a +2 (time to pay the piper). At low levels this may give them an edge, but at high levels they are going to be buying up their stat items just like everyone else. And dont forget the limited magic slots available. If someone wants to spend them all on low cost items, so be it. And dont forget the negative side of the +1 item. If the friendly caster buffs you, you only get a +1 bonus overall since it doesn't stack with the +4 stat spell bonus. Characters with even stats and no stat item (too expensive) get +2 bonus overall, since they couldnt afford all those stat items. I agree I just don't see that much of a problem here.