Post/Author/DateTime	Post
codemancac 10-28-06, 09:22 PM	By adding the twilight ability to a mithral chain shirt, the resulting armor has an armor penalty of 0 and an arcane spell failure percentage of 0%. Am I missing something, or should every wizard and sorcerer with enough strength to carry it (it weighs 10 lb) be purchasing this item? ---codemancac---
unusualsuspect 10-28-06, 09:38 PM	Given the price range? Yes, eventually... Unless he took Mage Armor at low levels so he could SURVIVE. Then he's spending, what, 5000 gp to gain 1 extra armor point? At later levels, it might, MIGHT be worth it when the bonus is sufficiently higher then mage armor. Before then... meh.
Loki5654 10-28-06, 09:39 PM	By adding the twilight ability to a mithral chain shirt, the resulting armor has an armor penalty of 0 and an arcane spell failure percentage of 0%. Am I missing something, or should every wizard and sorcerer with enough strength to carry it (it weighs 10 lb) be purchasing this item? ---codemancac--- Sure. If you think all wizard and sorcerer characters should be the same. If your DM allows the Twilight enchantment. If your DM allows Mithral. If all you care about is the stats on the sheet and not the flavor of the game.
Seerow 10-28-06, 09:44 PM	Pure roleplayer speaks. Enter stormwind fallacy. Such claims will not last.
Loki5654 10-28-06, 09:50 PM	Pure roleplayer speaks. I am not a pure role-player. I am not a pure roll-player either, I believe in a balance. Enter stormwind fallacy. The Stormwind Fallacy should not excuse "cookie cutter" characters. Every character is different, every player is different, every DM is different, every game is different. Saying that something should always be a certain way (spellcasters with said chain shirt, druids with natural spell, etc.) is the real fallacy. Such claims will not last. Thanks for your opinion. I respectfully disagree. Edit: I just got that you made a Haiku there! Allow me to respond. No game is the same. Players should explore options and not be nailed down.
Nitan 10-28-06, 09:52 PM	What type of Wizard, Would not get the best he could? Answer: A dead one. Now let us think of, Why Wizards wouldn't buy it, Greater Mage Armor. Play Forgotten Realms? Look in Underdark, Nightscale Armor beats them all.
Seerow 10-28-06, 09:54 PM	No game is the same. Players should explore options and not be nailed down. Options are godlike but are not what he wanted your lecture is void
Loki5654 10-28-06, 10:23 PM	Options are godlike but are not what he wanted your lecture is void Sorry I couldn't couch this poetically. He asked for an opinion, I gave him one. How can you say my opinion is void? Feel free to disagree with me, feel free to present an alternative point of view. But don't tell me my opinion is void without at least a minimal argument to back it up. Opinion restated: Codemancac, +1 twilight mithral chain shirts are fine options for spellcasters, but saying that "all" wizards and sorcerers cannot survive without it leads to cookie-cutter characters that are all the same, and I personally find that distasteful.
Seerow 10-28-06, 10:26 PM	He asked for an opinion, I gave him one. How can you say my opinion is void? Because, he asked if there was anything wrong with what he was suggesting mechanically, and you come in saying how it's cookie cutter and out of flavor for a Wizard to wear a chain shirt. Personally, I find it far more cookie cutter to see a Wizard walking around wearing robes. Because y'know, that's the common stereotypical mage. You're accusing anything leaving that stereotype of being munchkin and cookie cutter, when really it's leaving the stereotypes to explore something different. Or really, you could look at it as a throwback to 2nd Ed, when anybody could cast in a suit of Elven Chain Mail, but nothing else. It wasn't out of flavor or munchkin then, why is it now?
Artector 10-28-06, 10:30 PM	Mind you chain shirts can be worn below the robes themselves, so you wiz can still be wearing his wizzy robes. Mechanically there's nothing wrong with it. Flavor wise it can work.
Silverthumb128 10-28-06, 10:36 PM	If you think all wizard and sorcerer characters should be the same. How many Fighters have you made that didn't wear Full-Plate? Monks without Bracers of Armor? Wizards without Boccob's Blessed Book? If it works, why fix it?
Loki5654 10-28-06, 10:38 PM	should every wizard and sorcerer with enough strength to carry it (it weighs 10 lb) be purchasing this item? I have no problem with wizards wearing anything they want. In fact, when I play a wizard I tend to outfit them in courtier's outfits or adventurer's outfits rather than robes. Its the word "every" in the above quote that I take exception to. Yes, the +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt is a fine option for a wizard, but it is far from the only option.. Saying things like "A Druid would be stupid without Natural Spell" or "A wizard cannot survive without a +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt" seems limiting to me, that's all.
codemancac 10-28-06, 10:49 PM	(Edited: spelling) Given the price range? Yes, eventually... Unless he took Mage Armor at low levels so he could SURVIVE. Then he's spending, what, 5000 gp to gain 1 extra armor point? At later levels, it might, MIGHT be worth it when the bonus is sufficiently higher then mage armor. Before then... meh. Sure, it's not something he can afford immediately, or even perhaps through a half-dozen levels, but it sure beats bracers of armor +2. And if our noble adventurer ever becomes rich, he can grant the armor further enchantments. Loki5654, I realize that I over-generalized the situation. Furthermore, I realize that it is up to my gracious DM to determine whether the combination is legal. I also agree that a lot of casters wouldn't own it, based on their personality and need, and so forth. However, I feel that it would harmoniously add flavor to Elven communities, for example, and could certainly turn up in the "Adventurers' Favorites" section of some magical item shops. I wasn't restricting anyone's choice. My main train of thought when I saw the combination was that Bracers might become useless to wizards and sorcerers, so I was checking with this board to make sure the item was generally legal. My initial uncertainty has subsided, but I wouldn't mind hearing more about alternative armors for casters to wear. So, if everyone else doesn't mind, please no more opinions that aren't backed by statistics (or at least a book where I can look them up). BTW, thanks to everyone who defended me. And Loki, don't worry, I didn't take it personally. ---codemancac---
runestar 10-28-06, 10:55 PM	Sure. If you think all wizard and sorcerer characters should be the same. If your DM allows the Twilight enchantment. If your DM allows Mithral. If all you care about is the stats on the sheet and not the flavor of the game. If an item is so good, why shouldn't everyone be using it for the benefits it grants?:) It's like saying that yes, everyone in the police force uses a bulletproof vest, but no...for flavour, I decide to carry out my operations wearing fullplate armour.:rolleyes: It is indeed that useful, barring a better alternative, I see nothing wrong with having every mage decked out in one.:)
MareltEkiran 10-28-06, 11:04 PM	The one balance problem that I have with the concept is that for a measely 5250 gold, you gain exactly the same benefit as from bracers of armor +5, which cost 25000 gold. So I'm just wondering what warrants giving wizards and sorcerers an 80% discount on the cost of defenses.
Seerow 10-28-06, 11:10 PM	I have no problem with wizards wearing anything they want. In fact, when I play a wizard I tend to outfit them in courtier's outfits or adventurer's outfits rather than robes. Its the word "every" in the above quote that I take exception to. Yes, the +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt is a fine option for a wizard, but it is far from the only option.. Saying things like "A Druid would be stupid without Natural Spell" or "A wizard cannot survive without a +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt" seems limiting to me, that's all. Okay, I'm sorry then. I missed the generalization and assumed you were jumping on his case for no reason. Believe it or not around these boards that happens a lot. I apologize, you're obviously more reasonable than I gave you credit for. The one balance problem that I have with the concept is that for a measely 5250 gold, you gain exactly the same benefit as from bracers of armor +5, which cost 25000 gold. So I'm just wondering what warrants giving wizards and sorcerers an 80% discount on the cost of defenses. A max dex is part of it. The rest is just that bracers of armor are overpriced for anybody who has less than a +8 dex bonus. Seriously. Even then, compare the price of Bracers of Armor +8 to the price of a Wand of Greater Mage Armor. Or Bracers of Armor +4 to a Wand of Mage Armor. a single wand will last 50 days of adventuring, which is probably about 10 levels worth, assuming you only have to cast once per day. So yeah, it's not an issue of the armor being underpriced, it's the bracers being overpriced.
Loki5654 10-28-06, 11:18 PM	Okay, I'm sorry then. I missed the generalization and assumed you were jumping on his case for no reason. Believe it or not around these boards that happens a lot. I apologize, you're obviously more reasonable than I gave you credit for. Wow...thanks. I can understand the misconception, I've run into it many, many times. I try to remain as reasonable as possible, but this kind of over-generalisation is one of my "buttons". Thanks you for your reasoned responses and your willingness to listen to my POV.
Prub 10-29-06, 01:46 AM	hate to ask .. but I dont have all the books and have no idea what this twilight is.. is it an enhancement or is it special material? what is it and where can it be found, I dont understand what the problem is. thanks for clearing some of this up for me.
JulesCARV 10-29-06, 02:05 AM	Twilight costs a +1 bonus and provides a -10% reduction in arcane spell failure. It's from the Book of Exalted Deeds, and has been reprinted in Player's Handbook II. Anyway, there are some circumstances in which bracers of armor might be better. Let's say you want to avoid incorporeal attacks. Now your choice is between +1 Ghost Touch twilight mithral chain shirt and bracers of armor +5. They have the same armor bonus, but +1 ghost touch mithral twilight chain shirt costs 26,100 gp and weighs 10 pounds, whereas bracers of armor +5 costs only 25,000 gp and weigh almost nothing. Add further plusses from there, (i.e., +2 twilight mithral chain shirt vs. +6 bracers of armor) and the mithral chain shirt still costs 1,100 gp more and weighs 10 pounds. On the other hand, you can add other bonuses to the mithral chain shirt that you can't add to the bracers.
Roivas 10-29-06, 03:23 AM	Actually there are rules for adding armor effects to bracers of armor in there arms and equipment guide. They are fairly straight forward and are well balanced [opinion]. So where there is a supplement there is a way.
claypigeons 10-29-06, 04:05 AM	Mechanical reason to wear twilight armour: You arent quite so squishy. Higher AC without burning a spell. Flavor reason to wear twilight armour: "Wow, this wonderful armour can be worn without interfering with my spells like armour usually does! AND it affords me a nice amount of protection! Joy!" Almost any roleplay based argument can be defaulted to this: Does one choice or the other 1) Keep me alive longer or 2) make me more efficient. If either is true, shut up and do it. Dead/worthless characters arent nice to have around regardless of how great you think the concept might be*. And you know what's great? I prefer a roleplay heavy game to a hack-n-slash one. But you know what i also like? Having useful characters that survive.
Grunj 10-29-06, 09:22 AM	Does the wizard have light armor proficiency?
Krevon 10-29-06, 09:35 AM	Wow...Serrow and I agree. I don't think there is a problem with item.. The core wiz has to burn a feat to get it, and the moeny to spend it and up grade it. Then to maximaze his dex he either spends more money on items or ability increases or a pell which he wouldn've used anyway. If a dm feels it is too overpowered just make it a rare item.
Artector 10-29-06, 10:25 AM	Does the wizard have light armor proficiency? No. But that's irrelvant. If you are not proficient with armor then you take ACP on a ton of things. But since the ACP of Mithril Chain is 0, you take a -0 on those things. So it doesn't matter whether you are or aren't.
Shadowmind64 10-29-06, 10:42 AM	just because something may be mechanically best for a character doesnt mean that they will automatically want it. sure the twilight armor is a great idea, but sometimes a characters flavor doesnt match it well, or maybe the character just doesnt want armor. I know that the mages i play, which ussually tend to be very varied, would not all want the armor. Dont forget that every player has his/her own playing style, and each character has his/her own personality and motivations. for example, it is generally a common assumption that in a mage dual, it is distainfull to resort to using a weapon. Some characters may tak this more seriosly than others. this armor would be great for a gish class, but what about the independent mage that finds armor and weapons, a "last-resort" because he/she is confident in their own ability. cookie-cutter characters are not a good thing. then everyody might as well use the same wizard in every game all over the world. besides people, mages have much better ways to protect themselves...*coughgreatermagearmorshiel dmirrorimagedisplacementdimensiondoorgre aterinvisibilityprotectionfromarrowsfire shieldcough* besides, if every character had the absolute "best" equipment, you would never see a fighter without a spiked chain, or a rogue without two brilliant energy wounding keen daggers. and then the world would just be boring.
Heahengel 10-29-06, 11:55 AM	Another cost is that it would technically prevent you from using magical robes (they take up the same magic item slot DMG page 214). OTOH it would free up the bracers slot. I have no real problem with it.
PhaedrusXY 10-29-06, 12:09 PM	Often I'd prefer to just use spells for the AC bonus, especially if the Improved or Greater Mage Armor spells are available. At the upper levels, yeah the armor is so comparatively cheap that "everyone" should buy it. At the lower levels, there are spells that you can use instead, and the cost is not inconsequential.
primemover003 10-29-06, 12:46 PM	Often I'd prefer to just use spells for the AC bonus, especially if the Improved or Greater Mage Armor spells are available. At the upper levels, yeah the armor is so comparatively cheap that "everyone" should buy it. At the lower levels, there are spells that you can use instead, and the cost is not inconsequential. However a GMA spell is likely to get wiped out with a targetted dispel magic, the armor would not be.
StruckingFuggle 10-29-06, 02:15 PM	However a GMA spell is likely to get wiped out with a targetted dispel magic, the armor would not be. It's specialized, but an Argent Savant / Abjurant Champion's mage armor + shield together would be like +24 ac (also good vs. incorpreal attacks!), and pretty hard to dispell, swift actions to cast their replacements, and if you're still worried, slap on a ring of counterspells with greater dispel magic in it. In which case all you have to worry about is a Disjunction, which would screw you more if you had the mithril shirt, actually.
unusualsuspect 10-29-06, 03:44 PM	Though it was touched upon earlier, I think a lot of people are forgetting how devestating it can be to carry around 10 extra pounds of equipment all the friggin time. I've made at least a few arcane casters who have ended up with an 8 in strength... and 10 pounds leaves only 16 pounds of other equipment that can be carried.
ZeronHitaro 10-29-06, 04:07 PM	What book is this Twilight enchantment from?
DarkRhystar 10-29-06, 04:41 PM	What book is this Twilight enchantment from? Read the whole thread. The answer is above. Personally, I could make due with Mage Armor and put that 5,000 gp to other interesting uses.
ZeronHitaro 10-29-06, 04:58 PM	Ah, thanks Rhy. :embarrass Figures it had already been posted, but I had stopped reading the thread when the Haiku insult war had started.
DarkRhystar 10-29-06, 06:51 PM	Ah, thanks Rhy. :embarrass Figures it had already been posted, but I had stopped reading the thread when the Haiku insult war had started. Almost did too. :)
Loki5654 10-29-06, 07:21 PM	Ah, thanks Rhy. :embarrass Figures it had already been posted, but I had stopped reading the thread when the Haiku insult war had started. There were no insults We were both quite civilized The debate is done
ScipioX 10-29-06, 09:51 PM	Bracers of armor are a bit expensive. But one mitigating factor to keep in mind is that bracers of armor are useful to classes that don't want to wear armor, such as monks. Bracers of armor were never that great for wizards and sorcs since they could almost always cast mage armor or greater mage armor. The twilight mithril chain shirt just creates a different option than spells.
Seerow 10-29-06, 11:44 PM	There were no insults We were both quite civilized The debate is done Insults are common civilized speech isn't oft seen in a haiku
Loki5654 10-30-06, 12:22 AM	A modest motion: All posts must be in Haiku, it makes things more fun.
Osedox 10-30-06, 01:43 AM	I am getting ready to try a Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion and even tho I will still be casting Shield and Mage Armor (houseruled into Abjuration), I bought a +1 Twilight Soulfire Moderate Fortification Mithral Shirt. I bought it just for the other enchantments, and now that i think about it, I might have been better served with a suit of Padded Armor that is enchanted the same since the actual AC bonus is irrelivant. I would ahve used Nightscale, but the flavor doesent quite fit either.
babysamurai 10-30-06, 04:55 AM	How many Fighters have you made that didn't wear Full-Plate? Pretty much every one.
Prominence 10-30-06, 08:53 AM	I'm shocked people are attacking +1 mithril twilight chain shirt instead of Greater Luminous Armor. I'd rather my 0% ASF +8 armor no max dex with a -4 penalty to attackers (granted, at the cost of a little strength). +13 AC with abjurant champion, too.
Llathos 10-30-06, 11:32 AM	... Play Forgotten Realms? Look in Underdark, Nightscale Armor beats them all. Nightscale is basically nice leather, but still has ASF (5%). The twilight mithril has 0%. The price for Nightscale is almost identical as the mithril chain shirt, as well with the chain shirt coming in only 100gp more. +1 Nightscale provides +3 AC whereas the +1 mithril chain provides +5 AC. In short, Nightscale is inferior to the twilight mithril chain shirt combo for casters.
PhaedrusXY 10-30-06, 11:50 AM	However a GMA spell is likely to get wiped out with a targetted dispel magic, the armor would not be.They also have to beat me on a Dispel check, which may not be trivial. If the enemy wants to waste an action possibly dispelling a buff that I can live without and easily replace, then let them. While they're doing that, I'll blow their face off. I think that sounds like a fair trade.
DarkRhystar 10-30-06, 12:18 PM	They also have to beat me on a Dispel check, which may not be trivial. If the enemy wants to waste an action possibly dispelling a buff that I can live without and easily replace, then let them. While they're doing that, I'll blow their face off. I think that sounds like a fair trade. Heck, if just having GMA up provides an enemy with enough incentive to waste a turn on dispel that they would have otherwise used to hurt the party... it's doing its job and then some.
Osedox 10-30-06, 01:41 PM	Nightscale is basically nice leather, but still has ASF (5%). The twilight mithril has 0%. The price for Nightscale is almost identical as the mithril chain shirt, as well with the chain shirt coming in only 100gp more. +1 Nightscale provides +3 AC whereas the +1 mithril chain provides +5 AC. In short, Nightscale is inferior to the twilight mithril chain shirt combo for casters.Well Twilight Nightscale has no Arcane Spell Failure, and it does have a higher max Dex. I like to run my campaigns with very high ability scores to give it an epic feel, and sometimes the max dex of a Mithral Shirt just doesen't cut it.
Silverthumb128 10-30-06, 02:41 PM	A modest motion: All posts must be in Haiku, it make things more fun. For crying out loud This haiku crap is boring It needs its own thread
clannagh 11-01-06, 12:40 AM	There seem two reasons to wear the stuff ... 1. antimagic fields (anyone say beholder?) dispel magic, mordies disjunct etc ripping off your mage armor 2. it can, gm allowing, take extra enchancements like deathward, fortification etc
Korhal_IV 11-01-06, 01:29 AM	There seem two reasons to wear the stuff ... 1. antimagic fields (anyone say beholder?) dispel magic, mordies disjunct etc ripping off your mage armor 2. it can, gm allowing, take extra enchancements like deathward, fortification etc Don't forget, Mage Armor has a duration. That means that occasionally - particularly at lower levels - you can be caught with your pants down. The chain shirt never suffers that effect.
StruckingFuggle 11-01-06, 02:10 AM	bunch of replies time! :) I'm shocked people are attacking +1 mithril twilight chain shirt instead of Greater Luminous Armor. I'd rather my 0% ASF +8 armor no max dex with a -4 penalty to attackers (granted, at the cost of a little strength). +13 AC with abjurant champion, too. Greater Luminous Armor? Where is this from? They also have to beat me on a Dispel check, which may not be trivial. If the enemy wants to waste an action possibly dispelling a buff that I can live without and easily replace, then let them. While they're doing that, I'll blow their face off. I think that sounds like a fair trade. Plus, if you're an Abjurant Champion, they're probably Quickened for free to replace. :D There seem two reasons to wear the stuff ... 1. antimagic fields (anyone say beholder?) dispel magic, mordies disjunct etc ripping off your mage armor ... In such a case, other than Dispel Magic (actually, dispelling the ARMOR would probably be one of the best places to start...) you're actually maybe more screwed wearing the armor (wham! there goes twilight! and you're stuck wearing armor with ASF... Don't forget, Mage Armor has a duration. That means that occasionally - particularly at lower levels - you can be caught with your pants down. The chain shirt never suffers that effect. By the time you can afford that armor, you should be a high enough caster level with either extend or a lesser rod of extend that it shouldn't be an issue of cost between the two, no?
starfire311 11-01-06, 09:15 AM	My wife got a +1 Twilight Mithril chain shirt this year for her 2nd level wizard in living greyhawk at gen con. It was one of the possible rewards for being the best in your group at this years Gen Con Special event. It is one of the best items a wizard can get IMO, but I am not sure I would ever pay the 5k for it, when mage armor just costs a 1st level spell slot and gives you almost as many bonuses. She was lucky, she got it for free at 2nd Level, and since it is certed and special, she cant sell it so she might as well make the best of it, personally I thought it was a bit much giving a 2nd level wizard a 5k GP magic item for free, but it certainly made her day. BTW last year I got a +1 Fireshaped mithril breastplate, for my fighter 1/barb 1, for the reward for the gen con special, so I guess I can't complain
starfire311 11-01-06, 09:16 AM	Greater Luminous Armor? Where is this from? BoED, I think, and I dont allow it.
babysamurai 11-01-06, 10:44 AM	BoED, I think, and I dont allow it. Why?
starfire311 11-01-06, 10:59 AM	Why? I think it is too good, but honestly I have never had to deny it to a player, since I have never had a player want to play an exalted character. It is one of the few spells I dont allow, It and wraith strike are the list of currently banned spells (granted luminous armor may have been a knee jerk reaction, but meh it hasnt mattered, and a player could probably convince me to allow it) BTW Assay resistance and MDJ are my "watch list".. MDJ has been there since 3.0, guess I should remove it from the watch list now lol, since it has made it this long.
babysamurai 11-01-06, 11:06 AM	It is one of the few spells I dont allow, It and wraith strike are the list of currently banned spells I keep hearing about this wraith strike, unfortunately I don’t have the SC (yet), but one of my players does, so I’ll have to give it a little looksy.
Llathos 11-01-06, 03:31 PM	Is it really that bad? It's a level 4 spell, and does 1d3 strength damage to you in the process. Oh, and since you glow like the freakin sun, any kind of stealth is outright negated unless other specific measures are taken. It's hardly game breaking, imo. Of course, very few things are. People just get their panties in a twist when something looks powerful on the surface. It's actually not that easy to "break" the game short of using CO builds like Pun Pun, etc.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 11-01-06, 04:23 PM	+1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt: 5,250gp AC +5, MDB 6, ACP -0, ASF 0%, Wt 10lbs. 24 hour protection, frees a spell slot up, can be sundered/disenchanted. 10lbs is a lot when your light load is 33lbs. Bracers of Armor +5: 25,000gp AC +5, MDB unlimited, ACP 0, ASF 0%, Wt 0lbs. 24 hour protection, frees a spell slot up., can be disenchanted, costs more than the rest. (ghost touch) Mage Armor: Free* (uses one 1st level spell slot, or more) AC +4, MDB unlimited, ACP 0, ASF 0%, Wt 0lbs. Lasts 1 hour/lvl. At lower levels you cast this a few times aday. By the time you can be under its effects all the time it is under powered (12th level using extend spell) Has ghost touch. (+1 enchantment) Can be dispeled. (ghost touch) Mage Armor, Greater: Free* (uses one 4th level spell slot?) AC +6, MDB unlimited, ACP 0, ASF 0%, Wt 0lbs. Lasts 1 hour/lvl. By the time you can cast this it lasts 7 hours. A cheap low cost armor, frees up that 17,000gp and 10 pounds you whould lose by wearing a piece or armor like this spell. (+2 Ghost Touch Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt) A 4th level slot is a orb of fire you don't get to use. Can be dispeled. So which is better? I can point out each has their upsides and down sides. Twilight is not broken, if you want to disallow anything then ban Mage Armor, Greater since it looks to me like the best choice out of the selection above. Oh, and Bracers Of Armor to me is the worst pick of the bunch. Flavor wise: If your caster loves to burn all his slots as fast as he can he whould use the spell, if he was conservitive he whould look at the armor as a chance to save a spell slot. And at level 12 or so you nolonger care for any of the above. Why? Becuse you can get this. Robe of the Archmagi: 75,000gp AC +5, MDB unlimited, ACP 0, ASF 0%, Wt 1lb. SR 18, +4 all saves, +2 to overcome spell resistance. Ring Of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Dexterity/Gloves of Dexterity become your main sources of AC. This can save buying a cloak of resistance too. Rants I really hate it when people ban stuff from their games without looking at it. Oh, it looks broken... *banned* Try banning the real broken stuff. Whats with core only games? You think you advoid the so called broken stuff by doing that? And whats with level 1 only? At level 1 core only, ran by the book game. I have a 75% chance of dropping like 10 people AT ONCE. And I have never looked at the book to find a way to explote it... ((prismatic spray, 18 in casting stat, spell focus (greater), battle my CR or lower, no undead/contructs. DC for save is 17.)) I see a lot of clerics of Pelor (or godless), did he become the only spell granting god of clerics? Did he kill the other gods? Sadly I am gulty too. I hate psionics, never cared to fully understand them. And seek ways to say its broken compaired to a wizard and his spells. But my arguements do not stem from a choice to remain ignorent, just to remain argumentive... :p
Kyuketsukiouji 11-01-06, 04:56 PM	Personally, I'd rather enchant my clothing than get metal armor. One good dispel, and you're stuck with ASF, which can sometimes spell trouble in a desperate situation. Yes, at low level +4 to your AC looks nice, but at higher levels, it's fairly insignificant. If something wants to hit you, having 17 AC isn't really going to cut it, compared to having Displacement and Mirror Image up.
starfire311 11-01-06, 06:12 PM	Personally, I'd rather enchant my clothing than get metal armor. that would be the same cost as bracers of armor. Unless you are of the opinion that clothes are armor and you can just add enhancement bonuses onto them. One good dispel, and you're stuck with ASF, which can sometimes spell trouble in a desperate situation. Yes, at low level +4 to your AC looks nice, but at higher levels, it's fairly insignificant. +4 to your AC is pretty much good at any level IMO, at level 20 if I can raise my AC by 4 i'll take it, at level 1 I'll take it. If something wants to hit you, having 17 AC isn't really going to cut it, compared to having Displacement and Mirror Image up. why would you have an AC 17 at higher levels? Mage Armor + shield +Cat's grace gives you +10 AC without using above a 2nd level spell. but take a 10th level wizard they could have a +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt, starting Dex 18(+2 Gloves), +1 Animated Mithril Light Shield, +1 deflection bonus, +1 Natural armor bonus. 23 AC isnt too bad at that level, that is always on. You could easily optimize it to be much higher.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 11-01-06, 07:29 PM	23 AC isnt too bad at that level, that is always on. You could easily optimize it to be much higher.Mine is 25 ^_^. Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt +2, Mithral Buckler +2, Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of natural armor +2, Gloves of Dexterity +2 (only 15 dex with it, I needed 12 str so I could get a bigger bag of holding later). Support wise, Bag of holding (type 1), one masterwork weapon, wand of cure light wounds, misc adventure stuff. No scrolls or rods. I am trying out the ultimate magus class and figure I have more than enough spells to provide my own support without items. Due note you need 11 pr 12 str to pull off the clothing/crossbow/buckler/chainshirt/bagofholding1 (37lbs.) setup. Losing str for more dex and simply using mage armor, greater whould have given me more money to spend else where, but I went with this "flawed" setup becuse I felt like it :)
Kyuketsukiouji 11-01-06, 09:05 PM	but take a 10th level wizard they could have a +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt, starting Dex 18(+2 Gloves), +1 Animated Mithril Light Shield, +1 deflection bonus, +1 Natural armor bonus. 23 AC isnt too bad at that level, that is always on. You could easily optimize it to be much higher. 18 starting on your non-primary stat?! What kind of game do you play where you have 18s to toss into Dex as a caster? Can't speak for you, but my spellcasters have way better things to do than waste most of their funds on AC boosting items. Heck, even at 23 AC, at level 10, 23 AC means you're being hit over 75% of the time by fighters. Hardly good odds for all the money you spent on it.
ZeronHitaro 11-01-06, 11:13 PM	Question: What page in the PHB II is this enchantment on? I ordered mine via Amazon (better prices than in town) but looked at it in Hastings today I couldn't mind the enchantment after a light read.
starfire311 11-01-06, 11:46 PM	18 starting on your non-primary stat?! What kind of game do you play where you have 18s to toss into Dex as a caster? Can't speak for you, but my spellcasters have way better things to do than waste most of their funds on AC boosting items. Heck, even at 23 AC, at level 10, 23 AC means you're being hit over 75% of the time by fighters. Hardly good odds for all the money you spent on it. guess you didnt read my post very well, I meant current dex, but meh... all the numbers add up to 23 if you did the math but I will recap for you, he is a 10th level wizard with an 18 dex, not very hard(I gave him +2 dex from gloves, a +2 racial bonus to dex(since elves favored class is wizard, and a 14 starting dex) Sorry if you think this is far fetched. He did not spend most of his funds on AC boosting items, this 10th level elf with suggested wealth of 49K GP spent about 19k GP to boost his AC, that is hardly most of his money. I think an AC 23 is respectable you would rather walk around at AC 11 or less at 10th level, thanks to not having a dex of 14 or higher, and having better things to spend money on than AC.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 11-01-06, 11:51 PM	~Removed this part~ /* It commented on 18 dex Which turned out to be more of a typing/sentance formation and my own reading errors.*/ Can't speak for you, but my spellcasters have way better things to do than waste most of their funds on AC boosting items. Heck, even at 23 AC, at level 10, 23 AC means you're being hit over 75% of the time by fighters. Hardly good odds for all the money you spent on it. What do you buy? Loads of scrolls? Staffs? Rods? Rings of wizardy? Headband of playhowyouwant? BAB 10, str 18, roll avg. 10 (24). Add their items in and maybe I do have only a 25% chance of not being hit by their highest BAB attack. Thats better than nothing. (throw some cover in and you have some good odds) I must be one of the few people here to play in a real game. Let me try to enlighten you. 1: You do not always start out fighting 5 miles away from each other. In towns theres these things called buildings, they can hide behind them and get within 15 feet of you. On their turn the move in and attack. Most underground dungeons made by medium creatures have rooms smaller than 60x60. Bar fights happen often, taverns are not a half mile long. 2: Your never more than a single turns movement away from being attacked. A barbian can move 60 feet and attack you, even if its wearing medium armor. Bow and crossbows have just as much range as half your spells. 3: Smart creatures and nearly every commener fears the spellcaster. fear leads to hate, and the desire to remove the spellcaster as fast as they can. 4: 10 AC = death by fluffy. 5: Multiple attacks almost always suffer some loss to their attack roll. Thus increasing your chance for not being hit. -5 50% of the time, -2 45% of the time, and 5% of living/undead things get to make dozens of attacks at their highest BAB. Sure, you have a good chance of being smacked by their first attack, but I still perfer to dodge their second blow, or third, or fouth, or even a fifth blow. I like to think I have just enough hitpoints to surive one attack made against me. Yet cannot live past the second hit. D&D does not have ankhs you can run to and get resed without losing anything more than fame. I want to stay alive as long as I can. @ ZeronHitaro. Did you look at the index in the back of the book? (does it even have a index?)
ZeronHitaro 11-01-06, 11:59 PM	I looked, unless I am more sleepy than I realized the PHB II does not have an index. And the Table of Contents does not list any specific area for new/reprinted magic armor enhancements.
starfire311 11-02-06, 12:04 AM	I seen that, but no reason to comment on it. Just ignore them. (munchkins) Ouch
Shadowhowler 11-02-06, 01:06 AM	I've got a couple comments here, one on topic, the other not so much, so please bare with me. First, on topic. I would think one reason why the Bracers being so much more expeinsive then the armour in question NOT sucking too bad would be, can't you ware both? I mean, if I have Magic Chain +2 and Bracers of Armour +3 don't they stack? Thats usefull. Now, off topic. The little debate about mechanics vs roleplaying triggered a thought I've been having. I only recently got around to switching from Players Option 2.5 to 3.5, but it seems to me the new generation of D&D player is much more 'EverQuest' or 'World of Warcraft' related. This seems further evidenced by the use of the battlegrid and Miniatures being much more prevalent in the new D&D vs the old, in my experince. I know when I started reading the new books, I cringed when I saw all the emphsis on mini's and battlegrids, felt like I had opened a Warhamer 40k book rather then a D&D one. I am from the old school... I play RPG games to role play, and am much more intrested in character development then the numbers and bounes from my gear. However, it seems the new breed of player is much more from the MMO school... talking about 'tanking' in game and refering to each other as 'Hey Paladin' or 'Hey Wizard' instead of the characters names. Am I wrong? Please chime in and let me know which 'school' of gaming you are from... I wanna get a sense of the 'new' comunity I have just joined. Thanks
Heahengel 11-02-06, 01:10 AM	I've got a couple comments here, one on topic, the other not so much, so please bare with me. First, on topic. I would think one reason why the Bracers being so much more expeinsive then the armour in question NOT sucking too bad would be, can't you ware both? I mean, if I have Magic Chain +2 and Bracers of Armour +3 don't they stack? Thats usefull. Now, off topic. The little debate about mechanics vs roleplaying triggered a thought I've been having. I only recently got around to switching from Players Option 2.5 to 3.5, but it seems to me the new generation of D&D player is much more 'EverQuest' or 'World of Warcraft' related. This seems further evidenced by the use of the battlegrid and Miniatures being much more prevalent in the new D&D vs the old, in my experince. I know when I started reading the new books, I cringed when I saw all the emphsis on mini's and battlegrids, felt like I had opened a Warhamer 40k book rather then a D&D one. I am from the old school... I play RPG games to role play, and am much more intrested in character development then the numbers and bounes from my gear. However, it seems the new breed of player is much more from the MMO school... talking about 'tanking' in game and refering to each other as 'Hey Paladin' or 'Hey Wizard' instead of the characters names. Am I wrong? Please chime in and let me know which 'school' of gaming you are from... I wanna get a sense of the 'new' comunity I have just joined. Thanks Nope the chain shirt and bracers of armor don't stack. They are both armor bonuses, which do not stack. As far as roleplaying, I do a lot more RPing in 3rd than I did in 2nd, but thats mostly because I played 2nd mostly in junior high and high school. 3 started in high school, and then into college where I've been RPing a lot more. I certainly enjoy technical/tactical combat, but I don't need it.
JulesCARV 11-02-06, 02:08 AM	Question: What page in the PHB II is this enchantment on? I ordered mine via Amazon (better prices than in town) but looked at it in Hastings today I couldn't mind the enchantment after a light read. Page 21. Incidentally, it's in the duskblade entry, and is recommended for duskblades, which makes no sense whatsoever, since duskblades ignore ASF in light or medium armor and endure full ASF in anything heavier than what they can ignore, which means that twilight doesn't help much. I can't imagine what they were thinking when they recommended it to duskblades -- editing error, I suppose.
Chimaera2000 11-02-06, 02:51 AM	The only real reason that it might be useful to duskblades is if you wanted to cast in heavier armor before you have the relevant "armored casting" ability. The ability is far more useful for wizards and sorcerors, as we can see. Is it overpowered? Perhaps. It is certainly better than bracers of armor, with the exception of the max Dexterity bonus, and I think that most mages would want to wear it. It won't completely overpower the game; all it does is make mages a bit more durable. However, it does outclass the other options available.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 11-02-06, 03:11 AM	I seen that, but no reason to comment on it. Just ignore them. (munchkins) Ouch but take a 10th level wizard they could have a +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt, starting Dex 18(+2 Gloves), +1 Animated Mithril Light Shield, +1 deflection bonus, +1 Natural armor bonus. Starting with 18 dex? Not for a moment did I think Kyu whould lower the most important ability he has. So 18 Int/Cha, 18 Dex, under point buy, with evey other stat at 8 it whould cost 32 points. (High-Powered) Even by faked-my-rolls, two 18's is still alot. So yes, I called him a munchkin. I was typing out my post while Starfire311 made his. I hit submit and then got to see it. but I will recap for you, he is a 10th level wizard with an 18 dex, not very hard(I gave him +2 dex from gloves, a +2 racial bonus to dex(since elves favored class is wizard, and a 14 starting dex) Sorry if you think this is far fetched. Once I seen it I edited my post as such: ~Removed this part~ /* It commented on 18 dex Which turned out to be more of a typing/sentance formation and my own reading errors.*/ But really, I had no reading errors in his post. I said that becuse I did'nt care to add eveything up and check it out my self. If I did I whould have seen what he ment.