Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alvoros Darkleaf 12-20-05, 01:56 PM	I would love to hear any specific ideas you may have on methods (feats, spells, combinations etc) that allow a rogue (or other sneak attacking class) to maximize or increase the number of times a sneak attack is possible...the lower the cost, and easier to execute or maximize the hit % the better. I'll start it off with a few I use (one I just read in another thread as I plan to use it soon (being highly proficient in UMD). Have a caster in the party (or use UMD to do it yourself) to cast grease on an opponent area. The opponent, even if he makes his save to not fall, must still make a balance check to leave the area. The kicker here is that while you are balancing, and if you do not not have 5 ranks in balance (which most classes won't), you are flat footed therefore making a sneak attack possible from either melee or ranged positions for yourself or others. Wand of Acid Splash. I always carry a lowly wand of acid splash (1d3 damage) in my off hand (again, UMD is critical for my rogue). Should an opponent start to run, balance (see above), climb etc. you can make a RANGED TOUCH ATTACK with the wand to get a sneak attack in. The kicker here being that it being a ranged touch attack, a high dex rogue will usually only miss on a 1 or a 2, or 3. At higher levels, you will only usually miss on a 1. Blindness. Seeing how effective my rogue is, the party has now made sure to maximize their spells that blind opponents (glitterdust, blindess etc.) Sneak attack the blind opponent to your hearts content. Blink. In large battles, blink is your bet friend. Not only does it allow almost every attack to be a sneak attack, it is also a great defensive spell as well, protecting you further from area spells and targeted spells - the rogue's bane. The 20% miss chance can be annoying...depending on if Tymora or Basheba is paying close attention to you that day. Invis/Greater Invis. Enough said. I usually combine this with the wand of acid splash to almost guarantee the hit as well, instead or relying on melee attacks. Spring attack to flanking position, sneak attack, remove self from danger. Others....
Pandaemoni 12-20-05, 02:06 PM	I was unaware you use sneak attack in conjunction with a wand. Since sneak attack relies on striking particularly vulnerable areas, were I a DM I'd have to think hard about whether "Acid Spash" cast from a wand would even allow it. I agree with Grease and Blindness/Glitterdust. Those are priceless.
Trial by Fire 12-20-05, 03:11 PM	I don't see any problem with allowing sneak attack on any attack that requires an attack roll. The rules support it. One of my favorite things to do is cast the assassin spell from the complete adventurer that takes the 30 foot range limit off your next sneak attack. Then just sneak attack them from 200 feet with a longbow or shortbow. This is great for sniping, because the -20 to your hide is cancelled out by their -20 to spot for being so far away.
masterofmayhem 12-20-05, 04:45 PM	I was unaware you use sneak attack in conjunction with a wand. Since sneak attack relies on striking particularly vulnerable areas, were I a DM I'd have to think hard about whether "Acid Spash" cast from a wand would even allow it. You can sneak attack with spells, and even with wands or scrolls or staves. Nothing in the rules disallows it, and, besides, what would be the point of the Arcane Trickster prestige class if you could not? What is the difference between shooting them with an arrow and hitting a vulnerable spot and shooting them with an orb of acid and hitting a vulnerable spot, anyway?
Sae Cael Oanar 12-20-05, 05:08 PM	my plan in my current campaign is to rush in with my scout, retreat with spring attack, and as the enemy comes towards me, the rogue will hide next to its probable path for that nice few aoos.
jarvis02 12-20-05, 05:11 PM	I thought the spells had to be "weapon like" spells, like rays, for you to be able to sneak attack with them.
masterofmayhem 12-20-05, 05:20 PM	Anything with an attack roll that you directly control (i.e., it is using your precision, and not acting on its own).
Silverthumb128 12-20-05, 06:14 PM	Bluff check. "Look over there!"
masterofmayhem 12-20-05, 06:18 PM	Bluff check. "Look over there!" That would be a feint, and a standard action, unless you intend to use the momentary distraction to hide yourself and sneak attack in a later round.
Rhomphaia 12-20-05, 06:59 PM	A wand or scroll of Phantom Threat (Complete Warrior, Bard/Hexblade 1) Cast on the subject, they behave as if they were flanked for purposes of bonuses to hit and for sneak attackability (is that even a word?)
Far_Traveler 12-20-05, 10:32 PM	about the bluff things, you can do two things with it, feint, which is presenting a false opening so that they overextend themselves, or create a distraction for an opportunity to go to cover and hide.
Cayl 12-20-05, 10:32 PM	I did a read through of the PHB and Psi HB in prep for my Rogue. This was meant to be as comprehensive as I could make it, but I'm sure I've missed some things, or even intentionally skipped things that would never apply to my situation. Please feel free to correct errors you may see. Flat-footed / Denied Dex Bonus to AC Balance Checks Grease (and Psionic Grease) Sleet Bluff (Feint) Blinded Blindness/Deafness (Wiz 2/Clr 3/Brd 2) Glitterdust Holy Word (Unholy word, Word of Chaos, etc) Power Word Blind Prismatic Sphere Prismatic Spray Pyrotechnics Displacement Grappled Ranged Pin Helpless Hold Animal, Person, etc Sleep Symbol of Sleep Control Body Decerebrate Fuse Flesh Microcosm Hidden Initiative Invisible Invisibility (Rings, and Gr Invisibility) Mislead Cloud Mind False Sensory Input Stunned Color Spray (wiz 1) Power Word Stun Scintillating Pattern Sound Burst Stunning Fist (ie Monks) Symbol of Stunning Energy Stun Surprise Flanking Flanker - Special Ability Tactical Soldier(1) Elocator(4)
nastynate 12-20-05, 10:47 PM	mmm....flick of the wrist with a ki focus weapon, freezing the lifeblood, stab...dead. Monk/Assassin doom. Throw in a few shadowdancer levels if ya really wanna cause havoc.
Catra 12-20-05, 10:49 PM	If you're dual wielding and use Action points in your campaign, I don't see any problem with using an action point to block a blow with one weapon and sneak attack with the other. This is, of course, only if you can't Tumble past your enemy and sneak attack him from behind. ;)
masterofmayhem 12-20-05, 11:15 PM	I did a read through of the PHB and Psi HB in prep for my Rogue. This was meant to be as comprehensive as I could make it, but I'm sure I've missed some things, or even intentionally skipped things that would never apply to my situation. Please feel free to correct errors you may see. [snip] Displacement [snip] Displacement does not allow sneak attack, although the psionic equivalent, Greater Concealing Amorpha (and posibly its lesser version) does. Displacement Illusion (Glamer) Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. However, unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location. Material Component A small strip of leather twisted into a loop. Also, you forgot the Blink spell, which is one of the easier ways for a rogue to get sneak attack. That 20% miss chance makes it only really desirable at low levels, though.
Cayl 12-20-05, 11:58 PM	Displacement does not allow sneak attack, although the psionic equivalent, Greater Concealing Amorpha (and posibly its lesser version) does. Well it does say "As if it had total concealment" and then it specifies the one way in which it differs: A creature may target it normally. My initial thought is that it would work, Some special qualities and skills allow creatures a limited ability to locate unseen foes. The scent special quality and the Spot and Listen skills all give some chance of figuring out exactly where an unseen foe lurks. So can cruder means, such as scattering sand or flour all over a dungeon floor when you suspect there's an invisible foe nearby. These measures allow you to locate an unseen foe, and possibly attack her, but they don't negate the foe's total concealment, so they won't keep you from being sneak attacked. It's not enough to know where your foe is. You've got to know when and where the attack is coming. So here's a situation where you have a foe that is under total concealment, and you can narrow down their square so you can target them, but you can still be sneak attacked by them. I would say displacement meets the criteria set down in that final sentence. Also, you forgot the Blink spell, which is one of the easier ways for a rogue to get sneak attack. That 20% miss chance makes it only really desirable at low levels, though. Good call, Thanks
masterofmayhem 12-21-05, 01:21 AM	I agree that, logically, displacement should allow someone to sneak attack. If you block an attack coming from here, but it actually comes from there, two feet away, you are basically unable to defend yourself. The text for displacement makes it entirely a defensive spell, however, and ruling otherwise is a houserule. Well it does say "As if it had total concealment" and then it specifies the one way in which it differs: A creature may target it normally. Actually it says, "The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment." The difference is slight, but just enough to matter. It states that the creatures benefits from a 50% miss chance, exactly the way that he would benefit from [that defensive measure] if he had total concealment. It does not state that the creature is considered as having total concealment.
Ralphius_Maximus 12-21-05, 07:56 AM	That would be a feint, and a standard action, unless you intend to use the momentary distraction to hide yourself and sneak attack in a later round. There are several ways of making it happen in one round. Expert Tactician and Improved Feint being two I can think of off the top of my head. Then there are PrC's, such as Gladiator or Invisibale Blade. A Haste spell will also allow it. Ambushing a group with Combat reflexes is nice. Wait for them to cross through your threatened area and strike from concealment. They are flat-footed through surprise. Do it with a shadowdancer and you can then jump clear before they turn and retaliate.
Bob Loblaw 12-21-05, 10:22 AM	One good way to set up a flanking position is with a wand of Summon Monster IV. Use it to summon a bunch of Monsters from the Summon Monster I list and have them line up behind the target, single file. Then you step in front and you are now flanking. When the first one drops, have the second one move in. This can give you several rounds of flanking fun.
Vedic Cold 12-21-05, 12:41 PM	One of the most brutally effective ways of employing SA that I have seen was demonstrated by a pair of players in a game I ran recently. It involved a pair of spells from the Spell Compendium, so YMMV. The characters are a Cleric and a Rogue, and the spells were Blacklight (3rd level, creates a 20-ft radius of total darkness, from within which the caster can see as normal) and Ebon Eyes (1st level, allows the target to see through magical darkness, but doesn't enhance their natural vision at all). Both spells are on the cleric list, so the cleric casts Ebon Eyes on the rogue, then Blacklight emanating from himself. They just walked along together, effectively blinding anyone who came within 20 feet of them (and enjoying total concealment even from those outside the radius), and the rogue was dropping sneak attacks at her leisure. It was just... devastating. Would have been less so if there had been any spellcasters amongst their enemies, but they were assaulting an orc stronghold, so there was a decided lack of magical ability there. So if your rogue has a high UMD, I'd recommend getting a wand of Blacklight. For the cost of a 3rd-level spell wand, there's little that can help a rogue more than this.
katarl 12-21-05, 12:44 PM	Despite popular opinion, shuriken were not actually used as weapons, but for the purposes of distraction- you throw it past someones cheek, they look, run up and stab. One of the reasons no-one saw ninjas- 1d2/1d3 damage? pfeh, they cause paper cuts. Using ranged weapons as a distraction is a much overlooked ability. I don't generally try to use all of these methods to gain a sneak attack (it's kinda cheating). Sneak attack should be quiet and scary, not acid splashed, or in a spray of colour.
masterofmayhem 12-21-05, 04:50 PM	There are several ways of making it happen in one round. Expert Tactician and Improved Feint being two I can think of off the top of my head. Then there are PrC's, such as Gladiator or Invisibale Blade. A Haste spell will also allow it. I have never see the Expert Tactician prestige class you mentioned, but, yes, improved feint allows you to feint as a move action (not a very good feat, except maybe at low levels), and the Invisible Blade prestige class allows you to feint as a free action once per round. Haste will not, however, unless you are using the 3.0 version of haste.
Tony Vargas 12-21-05, 05:21 PM	SA on a touch spell makes a little sense, as there's at least an attack roll involved, but, it has the potential to be imbalancing. Ranged SAs generally only happen when the target is denied his DEX bonus (which also denies dodge bonuses). What's left for touch AC? Defelction. Monk WIS bonuses. That's about it. So very high damage attack vs a very low AC. Now, with /most/ touch spells, that's still OK, because a spell is a standard action (and Quicken is expensive and useable 1/round). Where it goes completely insane is if the spell lets you make multiple touch attacks in a single round...
PlasmaBunny 12-23-05, 09:17 AM	Precision based damage only gets applied once per spell (Can't remember where that was written, somewhere in the Complete Arcane). So if someone used scorching ray, they could sneak attack with the first ray, but any extras don't get the same benefit.
masterofmayhem 12-23-05, 01:18 PM	That's correct. And in the case of spells such as Scorching Ray, I believe that, as a volley, they are allowed only one sneak attack, anyway.