Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jh00 11-25-04, 09:10 PM	Hi there! I need some advice here! I was invited to join some friends into a 16th level campaign. By now, we have a bard/rogue, a sorcerer, a wizard, an exotic weapon master, a cleric, a samurai, a fighter and a druid. (lots of people, I know, but believe or not, the DM can handle it smoothly). It seems that the campaign will be most dungeoneeing with lots of undead. The DM hinted that it would be better to have some more brute force in the group, so I ended up with 2 choices: fighter or barbarian. I must pick a race from the PHB, but I can choose a class / prestige class from either the PHB, DMG or Complete Warrior/Divine. (maybe I can get something from the Stone Races, but a frenzied berzerker is already rulled out for obvious reasons). Although a paladin would be a good pick, I would like to try something new (since I'm already playing an epic paladin in another table). I'm considering a Dwarf Barbarian because I never played as one and because there is already a fighter in the crew. However... Probably because I never saw a high level barbarian, I can't see how a 16th Barbarian can outstand a 16th Fighter. I mean, the fighter have lots of feats and plenty of AC... What do you say? Is the Barbarian *really* a good choice for combat? How can I get the most from a Barbarian? Any suggestion of class progression, good prestige classes and weapon of choice? (maybe someone can reply with the popular "play with what you like", but I'm interested in learning from other experiences, since I'm still learning how to play D&D 3.5 after years and years of White Wolf). Thanks in advance! Jh00 UPDATE: *sigh* now I see that I have posted this in the wrong forum... I wish I could move it to the Classes and Prestige Classes... Sorry guys.
Nom 11-25-04, 10:25 PM	UPDATE: *sigh* now I see that I have posted this in the wrong forum... I wish I could move it to the Classes and Prestige Classes... Sorry guys.Or 'What's a player to do?', since it's not really a rules question. Ftr 16 vs Brb 16? Well, the Brb has on average 1 extra hit point per die, DR 4/-, and can add +6 to Str and Con and +3 to Will (+4 more vs enchantments) in exchange for -2 to AC. He gets more skill points but fewer feats (although he still gets at least 6). He is also limited to a breastplate (+5 +3 Dex) vs full plate (+8 +1 Dex), though is probably better off in a chain shirt (+4 +4 Dex) anyway, unless he has a mithral breastplate. Your fighter will probably be better defended and more versatile, but won't be able to match a barbarian for sheer hitting power. From a power perspective, I think most fighters should multiclass after level 4 anyway. Clerics and druids also make very effective 'brute force' combatants. In each case, it can take a round or two to reach full effectiveness, but then watch out. Clerics aren't too bad at combat to start with (especially with War domain), and can be more powerful than a fighter after a few buffs (especially the terrible trio of divine favour, divine power and righteous might), while a druid summoner can call on mighty allies even while wild-shaping into a powerful creature. If you don't mind multiclassing, consider the effect of adding a level or two of fighter to a cleric (mainly for the feats and proficiencies) or 2-3 levels of Paladin. Likewise, a level of monk can have surprising benefits for a wildshaped druid (two levels if you want Evasion too). This is without trawling the character optimisation forum for "interesting" features, or using any PrCs. However, the most important question is your play style. If you're headstrong, barbarian would suit. The druid summoner does less fighting himself, but relies of having hordes of expendable allies to throw into the fray. Fighters are all about making the opponent fight on your terms. The battle-cleric can work similarly, or can direct and support the whole combat from just behind the front line, ready to reinforce. Pick one that appeals to you.
SiruisBlack 11-26-04, 08:06 AM	I personally like 2-weapon fighting with Dervish PrC. Go for high dex and follow the feats for 2-weapon fighting, weapon finesse and throw on some mojo for you armor/weapons. Also look for holy mojo to deal with the undead. You will be a chainsaw. Unlike most I still like the look of staying with fighter but that also depends on the DM/campaign. If you have to find someone to train you for every level and feats the PrC's can be a headache. With Weapon finesse and imp. critical on scimitars for example coupled with just 1 level of Dervish=a chop saw. I took one level of monk and multiclassed into Fighter the rest of the way (Forgotten Realms), this means if you get disarmed you can still defend with lethal force plus some could bonus's and on -1 on BAB plus great skill selection. Can't wait to see how it turns out.
CaoSlayer 11-26-04, 08:18 AM	what about a "plain" fighter 12/barbarian 4? after greater weapon spec. there is little reasons for sticking as a pure fighter... or anyway take a prc instead those 4 barbarian levels.
Core 11-26-04, 09:03 AM	why not go for something different, since the group is already a pretty good mix - time to try out stuff you haven't before :) maybe monk11/kensai 5 (imbuing fists with suitable undead attacking bonuses) paladin 2/cleric 4/hunter of the dead 10 (or some other mix since none of the spell levels stack) (cleric 5 would get you 3rd level spells, but you'd have to drop a paladin level or a HotD level, either loosing divine grace or immunity to level drains). Spirit Shaman 16 might be entertaining too, and the party would love you against incorporeal undead.
simen_88 11-26-04, 09:11 AM	I suggest you go fighter 2/ barbarian 14. That way you get two nice feats (make sure to take the fighter levels last for prereq reasons) and the barbarian funky-stuff.
Dracspero 11-26-04, 12:32 PM	I don't know, looks like your group could use a good Gish (heh, Rage Mage if you're set on Barbarian). And don't discount the offensive output of a 16th monk (or 4th fighter/12th monk for the better base attack and specialization in unarmed). Or try a Dwarven Defender?
Dreaming_in_the_void 11-26-04, 02:09 PM	You get to play any fighter type you want in a more or less balanced party at advanced levels? Rare opportunity. Have you considered a Barbarian with Druid levels? Great BaB, you can heal yourself, and the best combo -- Bull's Strength + Magic Fang + Druid Shape + Barbarian Rage = engine of primal fury.
Sensei Gith 11-26-04, 11:10 PM	Barbarians are the best tanks, discounting divine casters.
Zelphi 11-27-04, 05:24 AM	Well it really depends what the others are already doing, you've got a Druid, a Saumurai (I assume CW), EWM, Fighter and what? A Paladin might be a good idea, or even a Ranger if you're going after Undead. What books you using, and be warned, this topic will probably move. Ask if you can try the Undead Hunter varient in the DMG.
Dracspero 11-27-04, 09:35 AM	Barbarians are the best tanks, discounting divine casters. Depends how you define Tank. I think of tanks as being defense first, damage second. Fighters have a much better chance to be a tower of defense than barbarbarians. If you define a tank as the best melee damage, then I'd go along with barbarian.
Cune 11-27-04, 07:12 PM	Sorry, did you ever actually seen a high Level Barb??? Why should a Fighter stand off longer? Barb has far more HP and DR. Oh and can't be Flanked, never Flatfooted(Sneak Attack). Better Fort/Will. A Fighter will have? Slightly higher AC. Lol. But as far I am concerned, when enemy is Dead, Tank did his job anyway. ;) A Level 16 Fighter is weak compared to... uhm anything. A Level 16 Barb is a decent Char. Nah, don't explain me about all these cool PrC's. I didn't say the Fighter isn't the best PrC Hopper, that's his area. But a PrC Hopper is no Tank. The point is, 20th Barb Rage alone with the Instanteous Rage Feat is for Combat practically an as good as unlimited +8 Str., Con. Bonus and an Greater Iron Will Feat for the price of 2 AC (+Feat). Essential its even better than +8 Str., Con, because nothing speaks against Polymorph the Barb in something else and still Rage for those boni on Top. No number of Feats can grant a Fighter just part of that. Lemme see, he would need Great Will, Great Fortitude, Improved toughness(x4), Weapon Proficiency with every melee weapon of size in the Game, Weapon Speciality with all light/Offhand, Greater Weapon Speciality with all melee Main Hand Weapons and thrown Weapons, something like supreme Weapon Speciality with 2 handed Weapons... Something to Grapple better... Surely a Fighter won't take all these Feats, instead he specialices. Greater Weapon Focus+Greater Weapon Specialication with one melee Weapon. 4 Feats for +2 Attack, +4 Damage. Could be decent, if he could be good at dual wield. Then both weapons are light, bye PA and need for high Dex. But otherwise its less than the Rage Modifications one handed +4 +4 (+2+6 PA) and far less +4+6 Twohanded (+2+10 PA). Okay, he could get imp. Crit. Problematic, that former great feat doesn't stack with a rather lowlevel Spell nor with an simple +1 Enhancement anymore. He could tweak with special Attacks like Disarm, Sunder etc. But any Barb worth his Salt would have Quick Draw anyway and na, Carrying Capacity isn't really an issue. Grapple, hmm, +8 Strength I won't grapple with. Even if the Fighter can come up Par, he must come on +5 Damage because of DR and oh still needs loads of HP. And that's just melee and with one weapon. Strength doesn't care about ading to a Lance, Pike or whatever. It also adds damage to composite Bows (Also its maybe very hard to find something able to craft a ~+14 Composite one), throwing weapons, whatever. Sure, Rage wears off, but heck I still waiting for a highlevel Encounter going over 10+ rounds. And that's just Rage. Barb's other gimmicks aren't bad either. A good Rogue with 6-7 Attacks a round is one of the things I really won't face at highlevels, but he won't catch a Barb flatfooted, and for flanking, he would have to be 4 Levels higher, what isn't that common. To come to an end, an Fighter can have some nice tricks, but meleeing is mostly about sheer Power and I still wait for an build comparable to an decent Barb.
WotCWannabe 11-27-04, 07:27 PM	barbarian/bear warrior oh man would you be scary!
Unmitigated Lie 11-27-04, 11:31 PM	Just for kicks, I sometimes create characters when I have an urge, and it just so happens I was touching up this one when I was looking at the forums, so I will post it even though it is probably not anything you were looking for (but maybe you will like it anyway) This uses the Expanded Psionics Handbook, Complete Warrior, and the Arms and Equipment Guide. The character will be a psionic half-giant (EPH), weilding a huge fullblade (AaEG) (using the half-giant's ability and monkey grip from the complete warrior) Huge Fullblade : 4d8 / 19-20/x2 / 52lbs Proposed level advancement chart 1-2 2 levels Fighter 3-6 2 levels Psichic Warrior 7-9 3 levels Dervish 10-13 4 levels Elocator 14-20 7 levels Dervish This will give you 3 1st level powers: I suggest Expansion, and Force Screen 3 2nd level powers, and 1 3rd level power. The feats I suggest are: 1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade) 2 Monkey Grip 3 Weapon Focus (Fullblade) 4 Dodge 5 Mobility 6 Combat Expertise 7 Power Attack 8 Ancestral Relic 9 Combat Reflexes 10 Close Quarters fighting 11 Karmic Strike You will end up with monk-like saves (11/12/12), a base attack bonus of 2 less then a pure fighter, lots of attacks, and some psionic powers that can produce simular effect to rage. This character is just an idea and completely untested.
Sensei Gith 11-28-04, 12:28 AM	Depends how you define Tank. I think of tanks as being defense first, damage second. Fighters have a much better chance to be a tower of defense than barbarbarians. If you define a tank as the best melee damage, then I'd go along with barbarian. Barbarians can be bricks just as easily as fighters. The -2 to rage is not that significant at 16th level. Barbarians have more hit points, especially in a rage, and built-in DR. If anything, they can take much more punishment before they go down, and increased damage means you won't be subjected to it for as long as the fighter will. It's not that fighters don't have a place—that place simply isn't trying to emulate the barbarian.
Uber Goblin 11-28-04, 01:06 AM	Well, if you want Bulk there is a class I will suggest from the Miniture handbook. A WAR HULK! take 6 levels of fighter, take 9 levels of warhulk. You have to be a large race, like a half ogre, but the war hulk doesn't get bonus BAB, he instead gets a +2 to STR every level. Though you might only get 1 or 2 attacks each one will almost always hit and they COUNT when they crit! Also you will be able to target a few hexes and toss boulders.
EvilDuck 11-28-04, 01:48 AM	Why no FB? In that case, Bbn is out. For fighter, I would use this build: Gatling Gun Tripper (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163005) Or you can just be a druid (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=165279). They're muscly, and they cast spells! Or you can be Log the Timber-Rogue! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=49084)
ILL34GL3 11-28-04, 06:39 AM	Here's another option: elven bladesinger. Suggested progression: lvl1:Rogue keep tumble, hide and move silently maxed out lvl2:Wizard lvl3:Fighter lvl4:Rogue lvl5:Fighter lvl6:Rogue lvl7:Fighter lvl8:Shadow Dancer (if possible) lvl9:Fighter lvl10:Shadow Dancer now you can hide in plain sight, assist the rogue in stealth missions and get anywhere on the battlefield via tumble lvl11-16:Bladesinger Now you have access to a huge AC(letting you act as a deadly wall between enemies and spellcasters), and thanks to your swordsmanship, buff spells and sneak attack bonus when flanking you can dole out some serious damage. Got to 12th level once with this build and it was a very fun, effective character. Very weak at lower levels but you get to skip that now don't you? You want a fighter with style and competence? This may be the way to go. :cool: PS: I think you also get improved evasion so successful Reflex save vs breath weapon, fireball, etc does no damage, failed save+ just take half damage. Did I mention you also can't be flanked? uber :cool:
Twoswords 11-28-04, 09:38 AM	Bah! Bard lvl 8/ ranger 8! :cool: Not the best, but you sure can have lots of arrows in the air as well as give your party +6 hit/damage. Will stand for a while but can also hop in and do some damage with dual blades. :D And if helping all the melees with +6 hit and damage on every attack isnt brute force in a way.. :weep:
Evil Bob 11-28-04, 01:06 PM	I'd go for mid-level fighter/random PrC. I like fighters because with other classes (barbarians, rangers, paladins,) 90% of all the characters of that class are the same.
Quarterstaff 11-28-04, 01:49 PM	6 barb 10 frenzied berserker weilding large greataxs with monkey grips never fails to fully embaress any other melee charecter :D
Sensei Gith 11-28-04, 11:00 PM	Umm. For a serious damage-dealer, monkey grip and TWF are no-nos.
Cune 11-29-04, 12:35 AM	6 barb 10 frenzied berserker weilding large greataxs with monkey grips never fails to fully embaress any other melee charecter :D Beside, that he said Frenzied Berserker is already out (Maybe his DM isn't silly, I guess) this is the WORST Berserker build I ever seen. TWF sucks for Barb and it sucks 3 times as much for Berserker. Monkey Grip sucks also. He can PA the -2 to 8 Damage, a weaponscale never gives 8 Damage. Last, why taking 6 Levels of Barb? 1 or maybe 2 if you want uncanny Dodge. The other 4 are just wasted, while you can get some Feats out of a Fighter.
Zelphi 11-29-04, 07:01 AM	You can't dual wield two THW with 3.5 monkey grip. Fighters use Tower Shields which grants Total Cover - meaing no damage from no attacks and good saves vs others when they only get half cover. Barbs only have slightly better HPs and the HPs from Rage go away when combat ends - potentially killing you. Blink and Evasion, with Heavy Fortified Adamantine Full Plate will negate most of the Barbs tank bonuses. So no they don't Tank better (depending on your definition). Brute Force at 16th is probably a Barbarian though, its a statistical advantage when you consider Greater Rage and Two Handed Weapons. I'd still say Undead hunting Ranger though... just for coolness.
Addi83 11-29-04, 11:29 AM	I suggest you consider playing a Paladin, or maybe a Ranger with undead as a heavily favored enemy.
Tony Vargas 11-29-04, 01:37 PM	By now, we have a bard/rogue, a sorcerer, a wizard, an exotic weapon master, a cleric, a samurai, a fighter and a druid. I ended up with 2 choices: fighter or barbarian. I must pick a race from the PHB, but I can choose a class / prestige class from either the PHB, DMG or Complete Warrior/Divine. I'm considering a Dwarf Barbarian because I never played as one and because there is already a fighter in the crew. I just started a Dwarf Barbarian myself. He was dropped in the first round of the first combat (hint: no matter how "in character" it might be, don't charge an ogre when you're 1st level). Even so, I think it's a potentially fun race/class, and I'd encourage you to try it out yourself. Witha fighter, weapon master and samurai already in the group, and the desire being a melee type, and palading being out, that pretty much leaves Barbarian as the only choice. Barbarians are quite potent at any level, thanks to rage, and a high-level barbarian with some of the Rage feats from CW should have no trouble making a very strong contribution in melee. One thing to consider with a barbarian in a large group with plenty of other combatants, is that your strength is sheer melee power - you do a lot of damage very quickly. But, your AC may not be that great, so you can also take a lot of damage very quickly. As apropraite as it may be to charge right into every encounter, if there are other solid melee types in the group. Instead, let the other warrior-types engage first, evaluate the enemy, and move in on the one that needs to be taken down the fastest. If you let the tanks close, and instead get yourself to within a 5' step of attacking the most significant foe - once the enemy has clattered a full attack against the tanks, you can step in with a devestating rage-fueled full attack of your own. After that, the enemy is likely to switch thier attacks to you, but, they're already a full round behind, and you're all laying into it. It's a little better tactic than the barb moving in first and tipping your hand as the damage-monster, leaving the whole combat to a high-volume damage trading contest between you and the big bad.
Addi83 11-29-04, 08:18 PM	Meh, I still like the ranger.
ConfusedUs 11-29-04, 08:30 PM	I second the gish idea. In a large party, especially at higher levels, a gish character kicks ass. You can fill in for almost anyone in a pinch (like if the fighter falls to that Finger of Death), and you can support everyone. My personal favorite gish builds include the following: Tele-control Knight: http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2179857#post2179857&origin= Rage Mage: http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2114694#post2114694&origin= There's a couple of awesome gish threads on the character optimization boards.
sinotuber 11-29-04, 08:55 PM	Hi there! I'm considering a Dwarf Barbarian because I never played as one and because there is already a fighter in the crew. everyone has their own idea for how best to build a heavy-hitting tank, but i kinda like the sound of what you suggested to begin with... a dwarf barbarian. i'm thinking mainly of the roleplaying aspects here... a surly little uneducated knot o'muscle who isn't afraid to get hit (dwarf con bonus backing up barbarian hit die)... just dive right into the middle of combat for the shear joy of it. and really play up the battle-fanatic aspect, particularly combined with the typically grumpy dwarf character type, in your role as party newcomer. ...just remember to back down before things come to blows, and then offer the samurai a drink from your abundant supply of ale. if you wanted to work with your DM a bit about introducing a more primative dwarf (since most dwarf warriors shy away from the more reckless orc-style combat barbarians champion) offshoot into the game, you might talk to him about some character background and culture and stuff. one time i ended up with a fire-worshipping barbarian/cleric in the party. with fire and war as his domains, he was quite the combat-effective fellow. if you mentioned it, you must have some interest... and that's what's most important. play something that appeals to you first and formost, and worry about the stats later. oh, and if you go this route... waste a feat on track, and max out your survival skills. your DM will be sure to make the party appreciate you real quick.
toomre 11-29-04, 11:06 PM	I'm surprised that an EWM, a samurai, and a fighter are insufficient tank power for your group, I guess your druid doesn't tank. Since you've got 16 levels to work with, you could easily have a PrC all the way to its 10th level, or a couple of 5 level ones. Given that you've got most niches filled try to bring something original to the team. A pure tank might be a burden on the healers given that there's only one cleric and one druid and you'd be the fourth tank. Also, I think the damaging power of a straight barbarian is being exagerrated a bit, although it's definitely more than a pure fighter. The rage and DR of the barbarian is not all that special when compared to what PrCs have to offer. A simple dragon disciple 10 which is considered a sub-optimal PrC has +8 to str plus a number of other neat bonuses and abilities, the kensai can summon up +8 unnamed bonus to str a few times a day too, etc. The rest: power attack, two handed weapons, etc. everyone has access to. I would suggest a second druid or cleric actually, but focus on tanking PrCs and spells, it's very doable with a druid due to the long duration of their buffs, clerics w/o persistent spells aren't quite as ready to jump into melee without a round ot two of power ups. Favoured Souls are a good choice for divine tanks too since they can have more heals and buffs to throw around than the clerics. If you must have a pure melee machine, then don't make it a straight build, start with the appropriate tank base class then switch to a PrC.
Bane 11-30-04, 12:09 PM	Go Radiant Servant of Pelor. Take strength and sun domains, and you will be useful in all combat, but a walking nuke where undead are concerned. You will be the best healer by far, and there will be no problems with the party complaining about not holding your end up.
whitelightsaber 12-01-04, 08:28 PM	For a tank id go with a fighter with a tower sheild and ad full plate, preferably with heavy fortification, but seriously in a party this big why not just stand there with a crossbow and assassinate everyone, and summon monster always works for tanking.
marcus_antonius 12-02-04, 11:28 AM	Ok....so you seem to tend to a melee-heavy-barbarian (maybe dwarf) My advise is to take levels in 1 of the following PrC's to increase efficency. Frostrager (Frostburn) Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior) Deepwarden (Races of Stone) Why Frostrager ? you gain: Natural Armor while Raging Immunity to Cold (it even heals you!!) An extra Attack at highest BaB (at -2 of course) the "Rend" ability (like trolls etc.) you lose: only 2+Int skills per level 5 levels of Barb. Why Exotic Weapon Master ? you gain: Uncanny Blow !!!!!!! you lose: 1 level of Barb. Why Deepwarden ? you gain: Con to AC !!!!!! (Instead of Dex) you lose: 2 levels of Barb. some general tips/feats/skills: If you happen to have "Savage Species" get the feat "Roll with it" as soon as possible. Take Power Attack and Cleave.....duh... ;) pump your Con and Str as high as possible (especially Con...even more than Str) for any further explainations....just ask..... hope that helps
Nightwing_22 12-02-04, 12:47 PM	If you want to try a fighter that does a lot of damage this one will seem a little off but bear with me: Monk 2 - 2 Bonus Feats, Unarmed Strike and Evasion (*Take first - better skill selection) Swashbuckler 3 - Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike Fighter 4 - 3 Bonus Feats Duelist 7 - Precise Strike and Canny Defense I recommend using Human as the race and taking the Monk levels first followed by alternating Fighter and Swashbuckler levels and finally Duelist levels(this allows a character keep a few skills high but not all). This build requires Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites. I also recommend Focus/Specialization/Critical in Rapier and taking Improved Grapple(as you will not be using the unarmed strikes much) and Combat Reflexes as you Monk bonus feats. Improved Toughness would also be a good choice. If it is allowed, I would take Sense Weakness from the Draconomicon(requires Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus) as it ignore 5 points of DR with any weapon that you have Weapon Focus in. This build is very powerful offensively and defensively for a Finesse build: Weapon Damage: Rapier 2d6+2+str+int/15-20 or 1d6+2+str vs. immune to criticals AC: 10+dex+wis+int Your Primary stats should be Intelligence and Dexterity. Wisdom, Constitution and Strength should also be as high as possible. Charisma is this character's dump stat.
tarkin 12-02-04, 01:21 PM	Don't you just love the fools that list all the Barbarian benefits that say "fighters will have slightly better AC" and laugh. Apparently they never heard of feats. Let me make it simple for you. Most good, intelligent fighter in "one on one battles" with a Barbarian will ALWAYS win. This does not mean one is better than the other, but it is a fact of life. A Barbarian will likely do better against wizards and rogues because of there specialized defenses. Why? Because the Barbarian's special powers are either Time derived, or irrelevant to the fighter. Example A barbarian's rage power. Great ability. Too bad any smart fighters will engage in guerilla tactics, striking at the barbarian waiting until he Rages, then retreating/using ranged combat/going defensive. The fighter should be able to outlast the Rage, even if the Barbarian is screaming "Come back and fight like a Man". DR 5/-? Try Power Attacking. I take a -3 to hit to get +6 to damage, so basically your vaunted DR just increased your AC by less than +2. Big deal. Whether fighters or Barbarians are better in general is a different question as not everyone has the time/feats neccesary to defeat the Barbarian.
Elric Lornhood 12-02-04, 01:32 PM	Since you're fighting a lot of undead, how about a wild elf barbarian who hates undead. Elves love nature, and hate the unnatural. Natural haters of undead. And a wood or wild elf would make a better barbarian than high elf. Ask you DM about the Foe Hunter feat from the forgotten realms too, or make up a feat just for your guy that gives you a little extra when you rage vs undead, like bonus to fort. saves vs ability/energy drain when raging, or at least allows you to ignore the effects while raging, or something like that.