Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Draxo 02-11-07, 10:51 PM	Hey.. i dont know where this quite fits, so if wrong section move it please. Anyway.. as topic. A friend of mine tells me that given 100ft between the two and a days prep time, that a 17th level wizard could beat a 40th level fighter just about every time. That even without te prep time and average spells memorised, that the wizard would still have the advantage and win most tmes. It just kind of rubs me wrong somehow. Can anyone give an example of why this would be true?
TheCobra 02-11-07, 10:56 PM	I don't know. If the epic fighter has sweet loot (as he should), the wizard would probably have a very hard time (even using gate).
runestar 02-11-07, 11:19 PM	What is the biggest, meanest creature in the ELH which you can gate in.?;)
TheCobra 02-11-07, 11:30 PM	If you throw on a ton of templates, gate could be enough. A psuedonatural paragon half-fiend half-dragon 34HD gloom might get the job one. Might.
runestar 02-12-07, 12:11 AM	I was thinking more along the lines of a prismatic dragon or a xixecal...:P
keith187 02-12-07, 12:19 AM	I don't think he could at lvl 40 the fighter will have saves that basicly make failing the DC of a lvl 17 wiz almost impossible. Only on a 1 will he fail. As far as I know there's no save or die spell that doesn't require a save. So unless the fighter rolled a 1 he'd probably tune that wiz retty quick. Just think of all the magic items he'd have at lvl 40. Of course one disjunction would really mess him up. Now that I think of he maybe he could if he used MDJ to kill all his magic items then used fly to keep out of reach. You'd need to survive the first round of mundane arrows then you can put up a windwall and be perfectly safe and just chip away at him using no save spell of course.
TheCobra 02-12-07, 12:23 AM	I was thinking more along the lines of a prismatic dragon or a xixecal... 34HD epic dragons aren't too amazing. Xixecals have 72 hit dice. Gate is broken, but it's not that broken.
runestar 02-12-07, 12:24 AM	The trick is to use spells without saves. There are enough of those running around.:)
TheCobra 02-12-07, 12:27 AM	Targeting an 40th-level fighter with anything will be tough. He's surely have some away to turn spells. He might even have a shield of great reflection. Now, if the fighter and wizard had equal gear...
Yokomohoyo 02-12-07, 01:18 AM	Let me take a crack at it. Wizard:77hp Fighter:380hp round one Wiz: Fly Fighter: Arrows (6 hit rest miss) 3+2+5+3+2+6=21hp Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 380hp Wiz: Avasulate + quickened teleport Fighter: Stairs at the wizard Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 190hp Wiz: Maxed+Empowered Lighting Bolt= 90hp/2=45 Fighter: Curses Not being able to fly but reflexes for 1/2dmg Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 145 Wizard: Quickened teleport + Power Word Kill Fighter: grabs 3d6 and starts rolling Then again it can go badly for the wiz if the fighter wins the initative and grapples/sunders the wiz's spell book...anything can happen.
Vaelan 02-12-07, 01:19 AM	Greater Ring of Spell Storing + friend capable of casting Epic spells, from Epic Leadership if nothing else. Epic Spells all count as tenth level for the purposes of anything. Greater Rings of Spell Storing can store ten levels of spells. I'm not going to bother explaining exactly how the Fighter wins this, but seeing as how the scope of epic spells, which only one of them has access to, is pretty much "whatever you want done", I don't see it as necessary. Someone else can, if they feel it is necessary.
Yokomohoyo 02-12-07, 01:25 AM	Greater Ring of Spell Storing + friend capable of casting Epic spells, from Epic Leadership if nothing else. Epic Spells all count as tenth level for the purposes of anything. Greater Rings of Spell Storing can store ten levels of spells. OK I understand the part of the ring but my example was a 1 vrs 1 dule... If the fighter has a spell casting epic buddy then yeah the 17th level wizard is a crispy critter hehehe
Zobdek 02-12-07, 01:29 AM	Yokomohoyo, how does your fighter go from 145 hp to 100 or less without your wizard actually casting anything? Also why does the fighter not have any epic equipment that could you know... dispel the wizard's magic or summon something or do anything but have him sit there like a lump on a log, that doesn't seem fair.
TheCobra 02-12-07, 01:30 AM	Then again it can go badly for the wiz if the fighter wins the initative and grapples/sunders the wiz's spell book...anything can happen. Uh, I don't see how either of those would really bother the wizard. He should have some FoM effect on. No, what the wizard should be worried about is the fighter teleporting (as a swift action, from an item) and full attacking for a ton of damage. With 13,600,000 gp worth of magical loot, even a commoner could beat the wizard.
spectralphoenix 02-12-07, 01:32 AM	Let me take a crack at it. Wizard:77hp Fighter:380hp round one Wiz: Fly Fighter: Arrows (6 hit rest miss) 3+2+5+3+2+6=21hp Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 380hp Wiz: Avasulate + quickened teleport Fighter: Stairs at the wizard Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 190hp Wiz: Maxed+Empowered Lighting Bolt= 90hp/2=45 Fighter: Curses Not being able to fly but reflexes for 1/2dmg Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 145 Wizard: Quickened teleport + Power Word Kill Fighter: grabs 3d6 and starts rolling Then again it can go badly for the wiz if the fighter wins the initative and grapples/sunders the wiz's spell book...anything can happen. Power Word Kill has a 100 hp cap for single targets. And why isn't this hypothetical fighter using more arrows? Why isn't he taking cover? Why hasn't he picked up at least a potion of Fly in his travels? Why doesn't he have a Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance?
TheCobra 02-12-07, 01:35 AM	I don't think any of y'all understand how much 13,600,000 gp is. The fighter's sword probably has more spellcasting ability than the wizard.
Yokomohoyo 02-12-07, 01:36 AM	So I miss on the 45hp lol but you get the point guys... and why he didnt have the epic mantle... I dont know I dont like fighters too much I guess lol... As I said anything can go any way in the fight... It was just a quick show on what could happen... After all the fighter could have a vorpal great sword and get a 20 on the first swing... anything and every thing can happen.
Zobdek 02-12-07, 01:45 AM	So I miss on the 45hp lol but you get the point guys... and why he didnt have the epic mantle... I dont know I dont like fighters too much I guess lol... As I said anything can go any way in the fight... It was just a quick show on what could happen... After all the fighter could have a vorpal great sword and get a 20 on the first swing... anything and every thing can happen. lol the wizard could wail of the banshee on the first round and the fighter could fail a fort save too... :w00t: Your dislike of fighters aside the 45 hp kinda destroys your example... the fighter is still standing and the wizard is down several high level spells.
TheCobra 02-12-07, 01:47 AM	the wizard could wail of the banshee on the first round and the fighter could fail a fort save too... I'm sure he's immune to death spells. He's probably also got steadfast determination, and wouldn't fail on a 1.
Zobdek 02-12-07, 01:48 AM	I don't think any of y'all understand how much 13,600,000 gp is. The fighter's sword probably has more spellcasting ability than the wizard. rofl lol :heehee :bounce: :invasion: :pile: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :bow: :w00t: :dancin: :dancin: :cheer: :cookie: More spellcasting ability than the wizard. So true.
Zobdek 02-12-07, 01:50 AM	I'm sure he's immune to death spells. He's probably also got steadfast determination, and wouldn't fail on a 1. But you must take into account the fact that I wasn't really thinking about that stuff at the time! And if he is going to take 40 straight levels of fighter he probably has some screws loose anyways... :rolleyes:
spectralphoenix 02-12-07, 02:02 AM	The point is that sure, if you play the fighter like a moron who never got any equipment to deal with magic and put him in a scenario that favors the wizard (lots and lots of room) than sure, the wizard will cause him some problems (and I think he might have had a chance if he had kept at it with the archery.) But an intelligently played fighter will do so much better. Scenario 1: Fighter: Wins initiative, uses blinding speed for haste effect, then dire charges the wizard for around a million points of damage Wizard: Dies Scenario 2: Wizard: wins initiative, casts fly, flies off Fighter: Fires arrows with deathblade poison Wizard: Dies Scenario 3: Wizard: Wins initiative, casts on fighter. Fails against SR 40 provided by fighter's mantle Fighter: Plays solitaire
TheCobra 02-12-07, 02:06 AM	More like 100 SR. Probably more. This guy's level 40.
Zobdek 02-12-07, 02:11 AM	Fighter: Plays solitaire What's his int would he really want to play solitaire? Are the cards resistant/immune to the spells? If I were the fighter I would begin skipping rocks. More precisely skipping rocks at the wizard...
smallfishnova 02-12-07, 02:17 AM	Assuming both character have their level standard wealth. The epic fighter should win, provided that he equips himself! Save or die spell or energy drain?! Do you know there is a continuous death ward item?! OR even A feat IN phb 2 that don't make a 1 an auto fail for fort. save! MDJ?! I think the fighter can buy a int. sword or something that ready a counter to counter every spell that the lv 17 wizard cast!? Gate?!... You can do that, why the fighter can not?!...Buy a crazy UMD boosting epic item and a epic scroll! Done! The epic fighter can do everything better (with so much money) than the 17 lv wizard if he is really a lv 40 epic fighter (with epic items..) The lv 17 wizard should not have a chance in a fair fight... (Ar, the epic fighter is likely to win init. too...) Assume both have lv 17 wealth. Well, it debates able. You can say the epic fighter can take epic leadership and do everything he wants..... Unless for some special build, i think the epic fighter should win... (16 epic feats is not a joke...) Assume both do not have wealth?! Wizard should win... Since the fighter may even do not have a sword or a bow to fight you!
spectralphoenix 02-12-07, 02:21 AM	I'd say that with Blinding speed, or in any circumstance that allows him to close with the wizard, the epic fighter should win - even without significantly epic equipment. And consider the fighter and wizard locked in a 10x10 foot room - with no way to get out of reach and not enough room to summon anything seriously nasty, the wizard won't stand a chance. A lot of these Fighter vs. Wizard scenarios are based on the assumption that the wizard has all the mobility he wants.
thefred 02-12-07, 02:22 AM	1. a good multiclass all over the place fighter (fighter, just about everything else that doesnt lose a base attack, and 2 in rogue for evasion, 3 in hexblade for arcane resistance and mettle) would do fairly well on the saves, i have one (with exceptional stats, but still it would work ) that has all his saves VS magic at very high numbers(his lowest is fortitude at 12 and highest is reflex at 21), and with both mettle and evasion that pretty much screws over any mage without summons on hand, or you could go for an archerish character, and with the right weapon (and by level 20 magebane should be on just about everything) and the high dex neccisary to accomplish this type of character, and VERY probably 4-8 attacks per round depending on items and feats its VERY likely that the fighter will win before the wizard even has a chance to get one action off, i know i was in a campaign of 12th level characters where both the arcane spellcaster and psionicist were taken out by a 12th level ranger in 1 round (two rounds in a row, gotta love revivify)so people arguing that arcane spellcasters are in every way superior should try playing in a group without any warriorish characters and if your going for the "what if both have no money of items" then please remember, that wizards use spellbooks, and those are very expensive
Zobdek 02-12-07, 02:24 AM	I'd say that with Blinding speed, or in any circumstance that allows him to close with the wizard, the epic fighter should win - even without significantly epic equipment. And consider the fighter and wizard locked in a 10x10 foot room - with no way to get out of reach and not enough room to summon anything seriously nasty, the wizard won't stand a chance. A lot of these Fighter vs. Wizard scenarios are based on the assumption that the wizard has all the mobility he wants. They are also based on the assumption that a fighter would seriously attack a wizard with no back-up or allies... :rolleyes:
Iver Gearsham 02-12-07, 04:34 AM	Wiz starts, casts Time Stop D Doors next to Fighter and uses Ring of Tk and 15 Arrows of Disintergrate blasts out a 100 ft. Plus pit under the fighter, Dump out Bag of Holding filled with Transmute Rock to Mud Mud that has been Shrink Item fill pit MDJ the mess see if the fighter keeps coming then run for your life.
angryman 02-12-07, 08:04 AM	This is an idiotic argument. If you think a level 40 (forty!) fighter can't kill the wizard in one round, you're kidding yourself. And what's this lame "Er...he uses a non magic bow... 21hp from 6 attacks? Did you mention the fighter was a brain damaged goblin with no limbs? Why wouldn't the fighter have some kind of: +10 epic spellstoring, epic flame (forget then name) mighty composite longbow with (Greater Dispel x3, Silence x2) adamantium arrows of humanoid slaying or something. So when he hits, it's more like: 1d8+4 (str) + 10 (bow) + 4 (spec) +3d6 (elemental) = 27 per hit. And that's very crappy for that level. So 27x6= 162 damage. And most of the wizard's buffs are dispelled. And he's silenced. And dead. And he has about 40 DEX. So his initiative with supreme initiative is about +23. So he wins initiative always. And kills the wizard. Don't forget he will have a way to see and attack invisible creatures, penetrate all DR the wizard can throw up, fly, teleport etc. He's level 40 for god's sake. Maybe my math is off, but any way it's off is low damage. The potential damage from a 40th level fighter is way, way higher.
runestar 02-12-07, 08:08 AM	Because contingency: windwall pretty much makes any ranged attack moot...
Witch 02-12-07, 08:08 AM	It all depends. Can the Epic Fighter planeshift? If not, the Wizard can simply Time Stop, Reverse Gravity, Gate, sending him to the negative (or positive) energy plane. Unless the fighter can planeshift, he's a goner. This does rely on winning initiative though. At that level, the fighter moves far faster than 100ft. And ofcourse the fighter can fly.
magmer2 02-12-07, 08:10 AM	Gate?!... You can do that, why the fighter can not?!...Buy a crazy UMD boosting epic item and a epic scroll! Done! Actually I think with incarnum any epic level character can get gate 1/week.
Garonak 02-12-07, 08:14 AM	1d8+4 (str) + 10 (bow) + 4 (spec) +3d6 (elemental) = 27 per hit. And that's very crappy for that level. So 27x6= 162 damage. And most of the wizard's buffs are dispelled. And he's silenced. And dead. +4 in str???? My lvl 8 fighter has a +6 bow. I'd think that a lvl 40 fighter would atleast have 30 in str. And a bow that fits...
Draxo 02-12-07, 08:17 AM	From what i remember of him talking about it, the trick was in the days prep time. From what i remember: the wizard starts with and sat on a phantasmal steed with hour/level buffs. The wizard should have a contingency set that if the fighter closes within 30ft They are both dimention doored back and into the air abour 120ft Then he went into some deal about some spell called celerity (not heard of that? if thats the correct spell name), Disjunction, timestop, solid/acid fog sleet storm and cloudkill. I cant remember the order. there was probably more.. cant remember it.. i'm not an arcane player. Only played rangers rogues and druids.
Bopple 02-12-07, 08:26 AM	The fighter's sword probably has more spellcasting ability than the wizard. :rofl:
chucky 02-12-07, 08:26 AM	I have a 38th lvl fighter that has good enough saves that he would have to roll a 1 on any spell the wizard cast. He is immune to all elemental damage. The only thing you could use would be sonic for damage spells. Oh and he has enough movement to get to and kill the wizard easily in 2 of his 9 attacks he gets every round making full attacks on a charge with sundering cleave. So round 1 he is on the wizard sunderd everything thats glowing on him, goggles of greater arcane sight. Every attack is doing 40+ damage after it takes out a magic item. If somehow some god decided to spare his life the first round he has spell casting harrier so any spell he casts will have to make a 55+ concentration skill check to get it off. AKA not going to happen at lvl 17. So the morel of the story is dont **** off high lvl fighters as a low lvl wizard. And yes 17 is low lvl to a lvl 40. They fart bigger things then 17th lvl mages. The only chance he has is to wait till he is sleepign and fragem before he wakes up, thats assuming he even sleeps at that level anymore.
The_sleeper1 02-12-07, 08:26 AM	I would tend to think that he would have str that is maxed around 40ish giveing him a +15 to damage and a bow that lets him do all his strength damage through his bow 5 from enchanment and many other sources, at level 40 he would have 8 regular shots and 1 from rapid shot and only require about 3 hits to kill the wizard.
Mirtek 02-12-07, 08:32 AM	Fighter: Arrows (6 hit rest miss) 3+2+5+3+2+6=21hp Unfortunately a 40th level fighter will easily do 20+ damage per arrow 30 Str, a bow to utilize the Str-Bonus with a +8 enhancement
angryman 02-12-07, 08:50 AM	If the wizard has Contingency: Windwall, I will slap the metagaming wizard into the next century. But seriously. Here are some insurmountable facts the wizard cannot hope to defeat: A) The fighter WILL act first. His Dex will very likely be huge and he will very likely have supreme initiative. B) He has 13 million gold. 13 Million Gold. If he's melee-based, he can easily afford a cloak of quickened Dimension Door. Then he can hit the wizard with his +10 fleshgrinding, asskicking, dispelling sword about 10 times. Or a quickened Dimensional Anchor followed by a charge. C) The wizard has a contingency? He might even survive the first round and escape. Guess what that means? The wizard has LOST. Running away means you lose. It's even in the DMG. D) He casts something to make the fighter go away, and manages to get thru the Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance? The fighter will likely have some item that allows him to plane shift, teleport, move around magically. I know I would. E) The fighter has, you know, probably fought a wizard before in his last 40 levels. He *may* know what they can do. (sarcasm) ANYTHING you can think up, he's likely been hit with, survived, come back and killed the wizard for doing it to him. F) Hell, he has epic contingency: True Resurrection.
runestar 02-12-07, 09:12 AM	A) The fighter WILL act first. His Dex will very likely be huge and he will very likely have supreme initiative. Assuming they both have the same dex scores, and the mage has improved initiative while the fighter has superior initiative, the mage still has the benefit of kauper's skittish nerves(which is a swift spell granting +5 initiative), meaning that the mage's initiative score is actually 1 greater than that of the fighter. Unless you devote all your stat boosts to dex, and even then, it is only a marginal benefit. If the wizard has Contingency: Windwall, I will slap the metagaming wizard into the next century. I don't see anything metagamish about this. Anyone with an iota of common sense will anticipate a hail of arrows or a devastating charge attack and prepare amply to counter these 2 likely scenarios. ANYTHING you can think up, he's likely been hit with, survived, come back and killed the wizard for doing it to him. The fighter may have fought countless epic spellcasters and lived to tell the tale. The person controlling him, however, may not..;) F) Hell, he has epic contingency: True Resurrection. Do you mean via the craft contingent spell feat?:confused: Spellcasters are tops when it comes to Pking and PvP combat. You can't refute that. And I don't have an issue with that. Why? Because DnD is about teamwork, not about who can create the better player-killer. Fighters still have their role to play. It might not be as glamourous as nuking a foe until it glows with power spells, but it is an important one nonetheless. You want to PK? Go play Diablo2 or WoW or something.
Bopple 02-12-07, 09:20 AM	nm.
spectralphoenix 02-12-07, 09:24 AM	Since when can you contingency a Wind Wall anyway? Contingency says the spell must be one that affects your person. Wind Wall doesn't target a person - it creates an effect.
angryman 02-12-07, 09:27 AM	runestar Assuming they both have the same dex scores, and the mage has improved initiative while the fighter has superior initiative, the mage still has the benefit of kauper's skittish nerves(which is a swift spell granting +5 initiative), meaning that the mage's initiative score is actually 1 greater than that of the fighter. Unless you devote all your stat boosts to dex, and even then, it is only a marginal benefit. Why would you assume a character 23 levels above, who has a full 20 levels of potential stat gains plus another 6 stat gains from level (ie, up to +26 to raw stats), access to tomes of epic dexterity (another +10) would have the same Dexterity of the wizard? IF he's a Melee fighter, he may not have obscene DEX. If he's ranged-based, he WILL have obscenely high DEX. Guaranteed. Oh, and epic feats and items to boost initiative. I reiterate- the fighter will go first, guaranteed. I don't see anything metagamish about this. Anyone with an iota of common sense will anticipate a hail of arrows or a devastating charge attack and prepare amply to counter these 2 likely scenarios. The first arrow hits (I believe contingency can't anticipate events, otherwise it would be a divination spell, therefore you can't word it, "Before an arrow hits me...") and may dispel everything on the wizard. Or may just slay him outright with the arrow of humanoid slaying. Or silence him. Or he could use tracking arrows. Or some cheesy epic ability that ignores level 3 (?) spells. The fighter may have fought countless epic spellcasters and lived to tell the tale. The person controlling him, however, may not..;) Haha, true. But it would be reasonable to expect that the fighter can anticipate pretty much anything the wizard can throw at him, hell, I almost can IRL. Do you mean via the craft contingent spell feat?:confused: A wondrous item. Ranks in the Use Magic Device skill. He'd only have about 23 (ranks in a x-class skill) +30 (item) = +53 to his skill. Again, not really maxed here. The resources available to a level 40 character are stupendous. Spellcasters are tops when it comes to Pking and PvP combat. You can't refute that. And I don't have an issue with that. Why? Because DnD is about teamwork, not about who can create the better player-killer. Fighters still have their role to play. It might not be as glamourous as nuking a foe until it glows with power spells, but it is an important one nonetheless. You want to PK? Go play Diablo2 or WoW or something. It's not a matter of opinion, really. Somebody makes an improbable claim, I refute it. Hell, the level 40 character's leadership cohort could wipe the floor with the wizard.
Clawhound 02-12-07, 12:29 PM	Think about multiple rings of three wishes and multiple cubes of force at a minimum. In short, the fighter has all the wealth that he needs to buy anything that the wizard can do AND he can afford it at caster level 40. Just the LEADERSHIP feat gets the fighter an epic caster to work for him. No, classes are not balanced on wealth, but wealth does balance things out.
TheCobra 02-12-07, 12:40 PM	A) The fighter WILL act first. His Dex will very likely be huge and he will very likely have supreme initiative. With the right items, sure, the fighter will go first. Otherwise, the wizard can get +17 from moment of prescience, and another +5 from nerveskitter. That's +22 without counting DEX, which should be pretty high with shapechange. He still won't be able to kill the fighter, though. At least he could survive if he ran away, which is much more than you can say for a 17th-level fighter attacked by a 40th-level wizard.
Gnarl 02-12-07, 12:41 PM	Can anyone give an example of why this would be true? Probably because your friend never played epic games otherwise he wouldn't be so sure of himself. A 40th level fighter has over 13,000,000 gold pieces of gear. That should be more than enough to buy a magic item that mimics any trick a 17th wizard can pull (and probably as a swift action). If both the wizard and the fighter have the same gear, well who cares.
Kursk 02-12-07, 12:52 PM	I have an epic lvl fighter I've played since 1st Ed. A 17th lvl wizard wouldn't even cause him to spill his tea while he he skinned him alive..
yehork 02-12-07, 01:22 PM	Is it possible for a 17th level wizard to beat a 40th level fighter with a days worth of prep? Yes. Not mine, but yes it is possible. I think you have a better chance of winning the PowerBall 6 times in a row though.
Dale warrior 02-12-07, 04:33 PM	LV40 fighter hmmm wouldent this guy have had a go at a Great wyrm dragon granted with his friends but they cast as lv17 - 19 mages if he has servived that i think a wizard would be less problematic
jadehawk 02-12-07, 04:56 PM	I don't think he could at lvl 40 the fighter will have saves that basicly make failing the DC of a lvl 17 wiz almost impossible. Only on a 1 will he fail. As far as I know there's no save or die spell that doesn't require a save. So unless the fighter rolled a 1 he'd probably tune that wiz retty quick. Just think of all the magic items he'd have at lvl 40. Of course one disjunction would really mess him up. Now that I think of he maybe he could if he used MDJ to kill all his magic items then used fly to keep out of reach. You'd need to survive the first round of mundane arrows then you can put up a windwall and be perfectly safe and just chip away at him using no save spell of course. I second this, though I do know where your friend is coming from. Even given a regular situation (some distance between the combatants and some time for preparation) a high level wizard is likely to take down a high level fighter. Sometimes magic items, and definitely mage bane developed fighters can turn this upside down. But typically a generic wizard can beat a generic fighter at high levels. However, that is one to one and a 17th level wizard probably can't take on more than, say, 10 extra levels of fighter before he loses his edge. But take this with a grain of salt. For instance, at low levels a wizard would get pummelled by a fighter (though there is also more unpredictability at low levels). As well, a fighter is usually a better fighter after the third or forth encounter. While the fighter may be down on hit points, it is more or less as effective an attacker as when the day began. Alternatively, the wizard probably has lost all its luster, holding on to a magic missile and read magic spell (except for a repository of scrolls and wands). my two cents -jadehawk
jadehawk 02-12-07, 05:05 PM	Hey.. i dont know where this quite fits, so if wrong section move it please. Anyway.. as topic. A friend of mine tells me that given 100ft between the two and a days prep time, that a 17th level wizard could beat a 40th level fighter just about every time. That even without te prep time and average spells memorised, that the wizard would still have the advantage and win most tmes. It just kind of rubs me wrong somehow. Can anyone give an example of why this would be true? btw, i would've put this in the "classes and prestige classes" section
tarkin 02-12-07, 05:15 PM	Let me take a crack at it. Wizard:77hp Fighter:380hp round one Wiz: Fly Fighter: Arrows (6 hit rest miss) 3+2+5+3+2+6=21hp Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 380hp Wiz: Avasulate + quickened teleport Fighter: Stairs at the wizard Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 190hp Wiz: Maxed+Empowered Lighting Bolt= 90hp/2=45 Fighter: Curses Not being able to fly but reflexes for 1/2dmg Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 145 Wizard: Quickened teleport + Power Word Kill Fighter: grabs 3d6 and starts rolling Then again it can go badly for the wiz if the fighter wins the initative and grapples/sunders the wiz's spell book...anything can happen. :rofl: Yes, of course. No way would a 40th level fighter have any means of flying. And he is stuck using non-magical arrows. That miss 50% of the time. He has no SR and nothing else that a standard epic level PC has. Yes, if your fighter is a moron, the wizard will win. If the fighter is a moron, then a 1st level wizard would beat him. At least LOOK at the epic items and feats. I would expect that the fighter can easily afford Great Reflection. Opps, that Wizard just killed himself with Power Word Kill.
jadehawk 02-12-07, 05:22 PM	Let me take a crack at it. Wizard:77hp Fighter:380hp round one Wiz: Fly Fighter: Arrows (6 hit rest miss) 3+2+5+3+2+6=21hp Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 380hp Wiz: Avasulate + quickened teleport Fighter: Stairs at the wizard Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 190hp Wiz: Maxed+Empowered Lighting Bolt= 90hp/2=45 Fighter: Curses Not being able to fly but reflexes for 1/2dmg Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 145 Wizard: Quickened teleport + Power Word Kill Fighter: grabs 3d6 and starts rolling Then again it can go badly for the wiz if the fighter wins the initative and grapples/sunders the wiz's spell book...anything can happen. I think you're underestimating an epic fighter here. For one thing a level 40 fighter would have something in the neighbourhood of 4 million gold to spend on items. So it would likely have a +5 flaming longbow, mighty to match at least +5 of his strength bonus (which is probably about +12 or higher). the damage on an average arrow would then be 4.5 + 5 + 3.5 + 5 = 18...6 hits kills the wizard.
Zobdek 02-12-07, 05:34 PM	He still won't be able to kill the fighter, though. At least he could survive if he ran away, which is much more than you can say for a 17th-level fighter attacked by a 40th-level wizard. The same can't be comfortably said with a 17th-level fighter attacked by a 17th-level wizards... :P
jadehawk 02-12-07, 05:38 PM	I have an epic lvl fighter I've played since 1st Ed. A 17th lvl wizard wouldn't even cause him to spill his tea while he he skinned him alive.. I believe you have neglected the 7th level spell "spill beverage" from the Complete Bastard book. It allows no save or spell resistance, but is a full round action.
Rulebook 02-12-07, 06:41 PM	yeah this is no contest whatsoever. unless the fighter is a true and complete moron (like lvl 1 commoner thinking he can take a trassque type moron) he's going to win. not only win, but possibly not sustain any damage.
owlkeeper 02-12-07, 07:14 PM	Here's an idea: Constitution poison, at level 17 how high can a wizards' con score really be? I'd think that by level 40 the fighter would have found the usefulness of carrying around various poisons and other weapon enhancing tools....
Rulebook 02-12-07, 07:28 PM	lol, owl... youve never dealt with epic levels have you? this guy is gonna get some epic items on, and go after the wizard BARE-HANDED. for the fun of it.
allenchan 02-12-07, 07:32 PM	Seriously, as everyone keeps mentioning, the sheer mass of gold the epic fighter will have will be enough to supplying him with so many immunities and failsafes the wizard would be hard-pressed to beat him, imo.
angryman 02-12-07, 08:06 PM	TheCobra With the right items, sure, the fighter will go first. Otherwise, the wizard can get +17 from moment of prescience, and another +5 from nerveskitter. That's +22 without counting DEX, which should be pretty high with shapechange. He still won't be able to kill the fighter, though. At least he could survive if he ran away, which is much more than you can say for a 17th-level fighter attacked by a 40th-level wizard. Thanks for confirming it for me. The fighter WILL always go first. Hell, let's assume, any wizard (or cleric, bard, etc) spell that increases initiative, the fighter has in an item. With his +50 UMD skill, he'll be fine. Just to stick it to the wizard. You know what? The wizard leaves, and the fighter tracks him down in about 2 rounds and kills him. Just because. OR The fighter sits on his ass reading a magazine while his CR 37 (or whatever) cohort murders the wizard in one round. OR The fighter's sentient sword takes on the wizard and wins. In a wizard duel. Seriously, don't be ridiculous. This thread is almost (but not quite) as silly as the "15th level wizard can beat the Paragon Tarrasque".
Orcdoubleax 02-12-07, 08:17 PM	I don't think any of y'all understand how much 13,600,000 gp is. The fighter's sword probably has more spellcasting ability than the wizard. :D Yes yes it would. Beside what good is magic from a 17th level caster a mere 290,000 gold for spell resistance 40.
Orcdoubleax 02-12-07, 08:19 PM	What's his int would he really want to play solitaire? Are the cards resistant/immune to the spells? If I were the fighter I would begin skipping rocks. More precisely skipping rocks at the wizard... But that would likly kill the wizard:P
Orcdoubleax 02-12-07, 08:22 PM	Assuming both character have their level standard wealth. The epic fighter should win, provided that he equips himself! Save or die spell or energy drain?! Do you know there is a continuous death ward item?! OR even A feat IN phb 2 that don't make a 1 an auto fail for fort. save! MDJ?! I think the fighter can buy a int. sword or something that ready a counter to counter every spell that the lv 17 wizard cast!? Gate?!... You can do that, why the fighter can not?!...Buy a crazy UMD boosting epic item and a epic scroll! Done! The epic fighter can do everything better (with so much money) than the 17 lv wizard if he is really a lv 40 epic fighter (with epic items..) The lv 17 wizard should not have a chance in a fair fight... (Ar, the epic fighter is likely to win init. too...) Assume both have lv 17 wealth. Well, it debates able. You can say the epic fighter can take epic leadership and do everything he wants..... Unless for some special build, i think the epic fighter should win... (16 epic feats is not a joke...) Assume both do not have wealth?! Wizard should win... Since the fighter may even do not have a sword or a bow to fight you! but at that point no spell book and fighter still wins.
savant_warlord13 02-12-07, 08:27 PM	Cant be done. Maybe the wizard would usually beat a level 25 fighter, but that is arguable.
Bopple 02-12-07, 08:32 PM	Then his cards got the massive spellcasting abilities and immunities. Some kind of dancing ability solitaire cards. Yeah!
angryman 02-12-07, 09:04 PM	I'd wager the fighter could beat the wizard at spellcasting by that level. :)
Dragoloth 02-12-07, 10:28 PM	The 40th level fighter also has 2 days to prepare. My 40th level fighter loves melee and has had multiple gorillas blessings and fuse arms cast and made permanent through permanency. Now he has 6 arms and weilds 3 dread(insert casters race), negative energy, dispelling +10 fullblades, dealing 2d8+6d6+1 1/2 str mod & other mods from feats/magic items. With dire charge, the multiweapon fighting feats, power attack, leap attack, and so on the fighter gets 10 attacks on the wizard in round one. Even though the first hit probably kills the wizard he swings 9 more times just for fun because the fool challenged him. Seriously though with a 40th level characters wealth and reputation/connections a fighter could afford enough magic items and pay a wizard and cleric(if his followers don't do this for free) to buff him before battle. Anything the 17th level wizard can do to buff himself, the fighter can have done to him. Hands down fighter wins.
PhaedrusXY 02-12-07, 11:45 PM	Go read this thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=728013&page=6) The fighter can win by using a bunch of magic items, if the player knows what he/she is doing. If they were both naked, the wizard would win every time. So basically, yes, a 17th level wizard can be beat by anyone, even a commoner, if said commoner has the wealth of a 40th level character, and knows how to use it intelligently. This has nothing to do with fighters.
runestar 02-12-07, 11:48 PM	I remember someone from the CO boards claiming that with epic wealth, a commoner1 could defeat a prismatic great wyrm dragon or something...:P So I suppose all that extra gold does make all the difference...
TheCobra 02-13-07, 10:11 AM	You know what? The wizard leaves, and the fighter tracks him down in about 2 rounds and kills him. Just because. I don't really see how he'd do that. Mind blank simply says no to the common methods of finding people. Perhaps if the fighter asked his epic spellcasting buddies for help. It's not going to happen in two rounds, though.
Kursk 02-13-07, 01:23 PM	I don't really see how he'd do that. Mind blank simply says no to the common methods of finding people. Perhaps if the fighter asked his epic spellcasting buddies for help. It's not going to happen in two rounds, though. 40th level fighter uses his ring of wishes and quickly locates and arrives directly behind wizard who is put through the proverbial Cuisinart. There are just too many possibilities at that level to consider...
TheCobra 02-13-07, 01:27 PM	No, IIRC, mind blank beats even wish.
Kursk 02-13-07, 01:47 PM	No, IIRC, mind blank beats even wish. From the spell: "Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it." I wouldn't ask for info, just wish I was with him... ;)
Iver Gearsham 02-13-07, 02:51 PM	Wiz Shapechanges into a Beholder anitimagic cones fighter who now only has masterwork gear then wiz proceeds to Tk violent thrust weapons at at fighter till fighter dies.
yehork 02-13-07, 03:47 PM	Isn't the Beholder's AntiMagic eye a supernatural ability. I thought you still don't get (su) with shapechange... Either way you're still flinging mundane items at a fully armored fighter (plate mail, shield, no duobt some natural armor by 40th) using a 17th level wizards base attack and int bonus to do it, the fighter will close and murder you long before you can take out his 400 or so hp.
Llathos 02-13-07, 03:57 PM	Assuming the wiz wins init or catches the fighter off-guard (that's a big assumption given epic gear), what about the wiz just casting Force cage? No SR. No save. Fighter stuck. Toss up a wind wall to block any arrows that might come out. Throw a dim anchor on the cage to block DD or teleportation or plane shifting. Use AoE duration dmg spells (vortex teeth, acid cloud, evards, etc etc) to dmg the fighter. As long as he can do 380 dmg from these spells inside the 34 hours of duration, he's good to go. In this scenario, init will be all important. The wiz's only chance is to use battlefield control to keep the fighter away. The flight advantage isn't a reality as the fighter WILL fly. Spells with SR are wasted. Spells with saved are wasted. I'd say that 9 times out of 10, the fighter will win. Easily.
RequiemOfReason 02-13-07, 04:03 PM	Shapechange gets you supernatural qualities. Perhaps if the wizard was to prepare huge amounts of acid ahead of time, and drop it on the fighter once he's in the middle of the antimagic cone. Complete emersion deals 10d6 damage a turn. That is, of course, unless the fighter has some nonmagical resistance to acid. Or can tie a rope to an arrow and drag the flying beholder into the acid. Or just turn the beholder into a pincushion, assuming the acid doesn't ruin his bow. Or does one of a hundred other things that an epic skills and feats would let him do. Lava is even more fun, but the acid would probably be easier to set up without magic. Plus, fire resistance is easier to come by.
Zankue 02-13-07, 04:10 PM	I've only read the first page so far but a lot of ppl are saying that all the wizard has to do is fly and then their safe... there are magical items that make you fly that makes the fighter able to pwn the wizard. I highly doubt that the wizard can win. First round, fighter shoots hits with six arrows, with a pumped up bow he can kill the wizard then and there.:P
yehork 02-13-07, 04:12 PM	Assuming the fighter's bow shoots arrows, there are a few bows available to a 40th lvl fighter that turn their ammo into varying forms of energy, windwall would be negated pretty easily. You'd also have to assume the fighter (or more accurately his weapon) can't use disintegrate. Fact of the matter is, for every scenario someone comes up with, there is a way for the fighter to overcome it. It's much more likely the fighter (using his 13 million some odd gold) is going to have the means to get out of any true danger than it is for the wizard with his relatively meager resources to resist the fighter's ability to hack him in half in the first round of combat.
Rulebook 02-13-07, 04:13 PM	complete immersion deals 10d6 a turn, and he swims out of the pool, in full gear, doubletime, EASILY. with likely 35+ ranks in swim (NOT a lot of skills to dump stuff into you know) swimming in acid isnt much of a challenge. heck, he can swim through lava too.
tarkin 02-13-07, 04:31 PM	Go read this thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=728013&page=6) The fighter can win by using a bunch of magic items, if the player knows what he/she is doing. If they were both naked, the wizard would win every time. So basically, yes, a 17th level wizard can be beat by anyone, even a commoner, if said commoner has the wealth of a 40th level character, and knows how to use it intelligently. This has nothing to do with fighters. Define Naked. If Naked means has absolutely NOTHING, and applied for the 2 days, then the Wizard is crying because he has no spellbook and can't do anything at all, except for a few spells he might have got through Spell Mastery. The Wizard is dead meat.
TheCobra 02-13-07, 04:41 PM	I wouldn't ask for info, just wish I was with him... Well, that'd be up to the DM. I guess it could work, but it might not.
Kursk 02-13-07, 05:14 PM	Well, that'd be up to the DM. I guess it could work, but it might not. That's why it's good to carefully word your wishes... :)
malignor 02-13-07, 05:22 PM	Gear Helm of Teleportation Winged Boots Greater Bracers of Archery Belt of Giant Strength +6 Necklace of Adaptation Gloves of Dexterity +6 Ring of Freedom of Movement Ring of Counterspelling and (alternate) Protection +5 Rod of Lordly Might Adamantine Full Plate +5 of Ghost Touch & Light Fortification, with Greater Shadow, Greater Silent Moves, Etherealness, Undead Controlling and Acid/Cold/Fire/Electrical/Sonic resistance 10 Silver Armor Spikes +5 of Defending, Keen, Flaming and Anarchic Adamantine Greatsword +5 of Ghost Touch, Holy, Keen and Thundering Composite Longbow (Str+7) +5 of of Seeking, Distance, Flaming Burst and Dragon Bane Horn of Fog Horn of Good & Evil Potions of Curing Potion of Enlarge Person Stats (so-so) Str15, Dex12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10 HD4: +1Con (Con15) HD8: +1Con (Con16) HD12: +1Str (Str16) HD16: +1Str (Str17) HD20: +1Str (Str18) --> 24 after belt Feats HD1: Power Attack Ftr1: Weapon Focus - Greatsword (+1hit) Ftr2: Cleave HD3: Point Blank Shot Ftr4: Weapon Spec - Greatsword (+1hit, +2dm) HD6: Precise Shot Ftr6: Improved Sunder Ftr8: TWF HD9: Combat Reflexes Ftr10: Greater Weapon Focus - Greatsword (+2hit, +2dm) HD12: Improved Initiative Ftr12: Great Cleave Ftr14: Rapid Shot HD15: Greater Weapon Spec - Greatsword (+2hit, +4dm) Ftr16: Improved Unarmed Strike HD18: Improved Grapple Ftr18: Blindfighting Ftr20: Mounted Combat HD21: Great Constitution (17) Ftr22: Dire Charge HD24: Great Constitution (18) Ftr24: Spellcasting Harrier Ftr26: Epic Weapon Focus - Greatsword (+4hit, +4dm) HD27: Great Constitution (19) Ftr28: Epic Weapon Spec - Greatsword (+4hit, +8dm) HD30: Great Constitution (20) Ftr30: Ride-By Attack Ftr32: Spirited Charge HD33: Great Constitution (21) Ftr34: Damage Reduction (3/-) HD36: Stunning Fist Ftr36: Damage Reduction (6/-) Ftr38: Damage Reduction (9/-) HD39: Great Constitution (22) ... aiming for 25, to get Fast Healing Ftr40: Damage Reduction (12/-) hitpoints: 39d10+10+40x6 = 250 + 214.5 = 464 hitpoints Skills: 3x40=120 skillpoints Climb (10) +17, Craft Weapons (10) +11, Handle Animal (20) +20, Intimidate (10) +10, Jump (10) +19, Ride (20) +26, Swim (20) +27, Tumble (5.0) +11, UMD (5.0) +5 Steed: 10HD Celestial Griffon (captured & trained by fighter using Handle Animal) Size/Type: Large Magical Beast Hit Dice: 10d10+30 (85 hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 80 ft. (average) Armor Class: 26 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +6 natural, +8 barding), touch 12, flat-footed 23 Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+18 Attack: Bite +14 melee (2d6+4) Full Attack: Bite +14 melee (2d6+4) and 2 claws +11 melee (1d4+2) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Pounce, rake 1d6+2, smite good Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, SR15, DR 5/magic, acid/cold/electricity resist 10 Saves: Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +6 Abilities: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 8 Skills: Jump +9, Listen +7, Spot +11 Feats: Iron Will, Multiattack, Weapon Focus (bite), Wingover Barding: Studded Leather +5 Tricks - Keeps his armor spikes at full defense (+5 AC; AC28 from armor & defending spikes alone) - Blasts Horn of Fog for concealment and moves back (hiding), then uses Etherealness to go under & through the ground and come up elsewhere. Uses Ghost Touch weapons while ethereal. Fog from horn stops LoS and conceals the Fighter's action (ethereal & move down 45 degrees toward Wizzy). - Saves Teleports (via helmet) for when he needs them. - Potion of Enlarge Person, then appear next to wizard. Thanks to Spellcasting Harrier feat, casting defensively is a pointless exercise and always draws AOOs, and even a full withdrawal through 10' of threatened space may draw an AOO. If the wizard is visible, this tactic will work. Full Attacks Greatsword +46/41/36/31 melee (2d6+23/17-20+1d8sonic) [holy, adamantine, g.touch] Longbow +37/37/32/27/22 ranged (1d8+12+1d6fire/x3+2d10fire; BR165) [dragonbane, g.touch, seeking] Unarmed Strike +37/32/27/22 melee (1d3+7) [stunning fist Fort31, 10/day, 1/rnd]
DaidojiTaidoru 02-13-07, 05:25 PM	The wizard has 2 days to prepare? Then he can win. Maybe. If the fighter makes a mistake. First use the infinate wish trick. Using the infinate wishes do one of the following. 1 - Buy enough items to negate the fighters massive wealth advantage. 2 - Hire a 43rd level assassin to kill the fighter in his sleep and win by default. 3 - Get in enough adventuring to gain 4 levels and contruct a epic spell that destroys the fighter before he was born. 4 - Become a greater diety and kill him with your Divine Spendor. I'm sure there are more options. Unfortunatly the fighter can do this too using the items at his disposal. With luck he'll have used Int as his dump stat and you're plans will come to fruition first.
not Yoda 02-13-07, 05:54 PM	Assuming both character have their level standard wealth. The epic fighter should win, provided that he equips himself! Save or die spell or energy drain?! Do you know there is a continuous death ward item?! OR even A feat IN phb 2 that don't make a 1 an auto fail for fort. save! MDJ?! I think the fighter can buy a int. sword or something that ready a counter to counter every spell that the lv 17 wizard cast!? Gate?!... You can do that, why the fighter can not?!...Buy a crazy UMD boosting epic item and a epic scroll! Done! The epic fighter can do everything better (with so much money) than the 17 lv wizard if he is really a lv 40 epic fighter (with epic items..) The lv 17 wizard should not have a chance in a fair fight... (Ar, the epic fighter is likely to win init. too...) Assume both have lv 17 wealth. Well, it debates able. You can say the epic fighter can take epic leadership and do everything he wants..... Unless for some special build, i think the epic fighter should win... (16 epic feats is not a joke...) Assume both do not have wealth?! Wizard should win... Since the fighter may even do not have a sword or a bow to fight you! Fighter with VoP Wizard with VoP My money is still on the fighter.
Terraneaux 02-13-07, 06:30 PM	I'm pretty sure the wizard can still win. Use Foresight to take immediate actions before your first turn, casting celerity to take your action before the fighter no matter how high of an initiative he rolled. Persistent Time Stop (any of a variety of ways to do this), rest, re-prepare spells, then throw a delayed Iceberg on the fighter, and have an action readied to re-persistent time stop when the existing time stop ends. Do this an arbitrarily large number of times, then teleport away. Fighter takes an arbitrarily large amount of damage as he is crushed under near-infinite icebergs. Wizard gains no xp off of the encounter more than eight levels higher than his CL, and whines at his dm about it until the dm doesn't let him play in his campaign anymore.
Vanigo 02-13-07, 07:54 PM	Fighter with VoP Wizard with VoP My money is still on the fighter. Given that a VoP wizard isn't allowed to own a spellbook, it's kind of a no-brainer.
FrostHammer 02-13-07, 07:54 PM	As a DM, I would rule that time stop can not be used with persistent spell.
Terraneaux 02-13-07, 07:55 PM	That's funny, because as a DM, I would rule that merely based on RAW fighters never get to level 40.
Kursk 02-13-07, 07:56 PM	That's funny, because as a DM, I would rule that merely based on RAW fighters never get to level 40. ??
Bopple 02-13-07, 08:01 PM	Persistent Time Stop is not possible, officially. And even if it were not mentioned in FAQ, the duration is 'apparent time'. If you persist Time Stop, you would be stuck in 1d4+1 round through the whole 24 hours. And what makes you think a 40 lvl fighter cannot do the same tricks and much more?
PoorHobo 02-13-07, 08:02 PM	As a DM, I would rule that time stop can not be used with persistent spell. I don't think any DM does. It just comes up in lame arguments, like the one above. The description of the spell says it doesn't really last 1D4+1 rounds but is really the caster is moving really fast for what seems to be that amount of time. So even if you allowed persistent timestop, time doesn't actually pass. You can't rest and rememorize spells because you need a specific amount of time to pass 8 hours, when in reality it's all been a blink of an eye.
Witch 02-13-07, 08:03 PM	Gear Helm of Teleportation Winged Boots Greater Bracers of Archery Belt of Giant Strength +6 Necklace of Adaptation Gloves of Dexterity +6 Ring of Freedom of Movement Ring of Counterspelling and (alternate) Protection +5 Rod of Lordly Might Adamantine Full Plate +5 of Ghost Touch & Light Fortification, with Greater Shadow, Greater Silent Moves, Etherealness, Undead Controlling and Acid/Cold/Fire/Electrical/Sonic resistance 10 Silver Armor Spikes +5 of Defending, Keen, Flaming and Anarchic Adamantine Greatsword +5 of Ghost Touch, Holy, Keen and Thundering Composite Longbow (Str+7) +5 of of Seeking, Distance, Flaming Burst and Dragon Bane Horn of Fog Horn of Good & Evil Potions of Curing Potion of Enlarge Person Are you saying this stuff is worth 13,600,000 gold? I think you've got far too few equipment. HD39: Great Constitution (22) ... aiming for 25, to get Fast Healing A belt of constitution qualifies you for Fast Healing. Furtheremore, you're picking crap feats. hitpoints: 39d10+10+40x6 = 250 + 214.5 = 464 hitpoints Crappily low hit points for a fighter that high.
PoorHobo 02-13-07, 08:04 PM	That's funny, because as a DM, I would rule that merely based on RAW fighters never get to level 40. Considering clueless you are of timestop, I'm not surprised.
Krispieman 02-13-07, 08:25 PM	As a veteran of the Epic boards, I couldn't let this one slide once I noticed it. Using only the PHB, DMG & EHL I quickly threw together a (dumb) Fighter 40 and spent about 13.6M on equipment. Now bear in mind that this guy is FAR from optimal and his chances increase significantly when other books are applied. Starting Stats: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8 HD: 40d10+440 (743hp) Initiative: +15 (+7dex, +8supreme initiative) Speed: 60 ft. AC: 48 (+7dex, +1dodge, +1insight, +5deflection, +9natural armor, +15armor), touch 24, flat-footed 40 Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+43 Epic Attack Bonus: +10 Attack: +5 Ghost Touch, Human Dread Falchion +55 melee (2d4+32, +4d6+4 vs. humans) OR +5 Distant Shot, Human Bane, Seeking Composite Longbow (+13) +49 ranged (1d8+26, +2d6+2 vs. humans) Full Attack: +5 Ghost Touch, Human Dread Falchion +55/+50/+45/+40 melee (2d4+32, +4d6+4 vs. humans) OR +5 Distant Shot, Human Bane, Seeking Composite Longbow (+13) +49/+44/+39/+34 ranged (1d8+26, +2d6+2 vs. humans) Face/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Qualities: Darkvision 60’, elemental immunity, evasion Saves: Fort +41, Ref +31, Will +28 Abilities: Str 36 (+13), Dex 24 (+7), Con 32 (+11), Int 10 (+0), Wis 18 (+4), Cha 10 (+0) Skills: Climb +56, Handle Animal +24, Intimidate +24, Jump +36, Ride +32, Swim +36 Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Far Shot, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (falchion), Greater Weapon Focus (longbow), Greater Weapon Specialization (falchion), Greater Weapon Specialization (longbow), Improved Critical (falchion), Improved Critical (longbow), Improved Initiative, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (falchion), Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longbow), Weapon Specialization (falchion) Epic Feats: Armor Skin [x2], Combat Archery, Devastating Critical (falchion), Dire Charge, Epic Prowess [x2], Epic Weapon Focus (falchion), Epic Weapon Focus (longbow), Epic Weapon Specialization (falchion), Epic Weapon Specialization (longbow), Overwhelming Critical (falchion), Spellcasting Harrier, Supreme Initiative CR: 40ish Goggles of Night 12,000 Amulet of Health +10 and Natural Armor +5 1,075,000 Vest of Resistance +6 360,000 Armor of the Celestial Battalion +10 1,126,300 Belt of Epic Strength +12 1,440,000 Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance 290,000 Greater Bracers of Archery 25,000 Glove of Storing 10,000 Ring of Universal Elemental Immunity 2,160,000 Ring of Protection +5 50,000 Boots of Swiftness 256,000 +5 Ghost Touch Falchion of Human Dread 3,380,315 +5 Distant Shot, Seeking Composite Longbow (+13) of Human Bane 2,882,075 Manual of Bodily Health +4 110,000 Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 110,000 Manual of Quickness of Action +4 110,000 Tome of Understanding +4 110,000 Ioun Stone - Dusty Rose 5,000 Ioun Stone - Incandescent Blue 8,000 Ioun Stone - Pink and Green 8,000 Ioun Stone - Pale Green 30,000 Stone of Goodluck 20,000I think it's safe to say that vs. a human wizard he'll hit all his ranged attacks, dealing an average of 195.13hp damage. Or, if he wins initiative and charges: 338.39hp (ave.) damage with a 30% chance per attack that the Wizard will need to make a DC 43 Fortitude save and a DC 27 Fortitude save to avoid dying instantly. Now bring on the Wizard supporters to debunk this Fighter using only the PHB and no custom items, and 1 day prep time, I believe it was? K-man :cool:
DaidojiTaidoru 02-13-07, 08:30 PM	Now bring on the Wizard supporters to debunk this Fighter using only the PHB and no custom items, and 1 day prep time, I believe it was? I did that the previous page. It just requires levels of cheese that, while legal, are pushing the limits of reasonable. A 23 level gap is just not possible to overcome without going into game breaking madness. Admittedly the Wizard has that, but to deal with that big a difference the cheese is going to be blatent.
SolenVlos 02-13-07, 09:10 PM	Oh come on. As far as I know there's no save or die spell that doesn't require a save. It's called save-or-die.
Iver Gearsham 02-13-07, 10:05 PM	Wizard Feats Improved Initiative Danger Sense reroll Initiative once a day Quick Reconnoiter Extend Spell Improved Familiar Craft Rod Quicken spell Craft Wondrous Craft Ring Gear Greater Rod of Quicken Used a Manual of Quickness of Action +4 Gloves of Dex +6 Used a Tome of Intellect +5 Head Band of Intellect +6 Lava Shrink Item-ed 24 cubic feet, number of 5 Bonfires made to produce thick smoke Shrink Item-ed #10 From SRD Smoke Inhalation: Forest fires naturally produce a great deal of smoke. A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Also, smoke obscures vision, providing concealment to characters within it. From SRD Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a –4 penalty on their saves. In addition, those wearing metal armor or coming into contact with very hot metal are affected as if by a heat metal spell Stats (so-so) Str12, Dex12, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 10 HD4: +1, Int (, Int 16) HD8: +1, Int (, Int 17) HD12: +1, Int (, Int 18) HD16: +1, Int (, Int 19) Tome Int +5, Int 24 Head band +6 Int 30 Manual Dex +4 (Dex 16) gloves of Dex +6 (Dex 22) Wizard’s Initiative modifier total +17(Skittish Nerves). Fighters Initiative modifier total +8 So barring a horrible roll that the wizard can try again he goes first. First round Force Cage the fighter Quicken Shape Change via Rod shared with familiar who becomes Beholder, Familiar’s standard action opens central eye rendering the Fighter’s 13,600,000 gp worth of gear now mundane including his happy Int sword of spell casting. Walk over throw down some lava inside the cage and one bonfire per side so wind direction doesn’t matter and you have begun cooking smoked and roasted fighter. Who can hold his breath for 16 rounds then start making Constitution checks DC 10 plus 1 per round with his +3 modifier he will soon fail. After that he will have to suck down a big lung full of smoke who’s DC should be around 41 at that point. If the fighter spends one hour trapped with the lava damage from that 2d6 per round from direct contact as energy it will bypass fighter’s 12/- total is 1200d6 of fire damage. From exposure to the ambient heat another 60d6 plus at least 10d4 nonleathal. Then the smoke DC 15 +1 per round has reached DC 615 and I am sure it has been failed about 20 times for 20d6 nonleathal damage. I think fighter boy will drop with in 20 minuets.
FrostHammer 02-13-07, 10:14 PM	Why would the fighter only have +8? Don't forget the Fighter's contingency spell of quickened greater teleport or something.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 02-13-07, 10:22 PM	The Wizard has Glory of The martyr up and with ForeSight up, and Casts Celerity. Game over. Let's also not forget that a Wizard has an Infinite Titan Army and an infinite Army of Simulacrum Solars by this level.
FrostHammer 02-13-07, 10:38 PM	Anything the Wizard can do, the Fighter can also do. At level 40, evderybody can cast spells or has something that does it for him.
Vaelan 02-13-07, 10:40 PM	The Wizard has Glory of The martyr up and with ForeSight up, and Casts Celerity. Game over. You're right, except for the fact that, if the Fighter were even moderately intelligent, the Wizard would both lose initiative and start out in an antimagic field, thus making every magical defense worthless. Game over indeed. Let's also not forget that a Wizard has an Infinite Titan Army and an infinite Army of Simulacrum Solars by this level. Read the original post.
spectralphoenix 02-14-07, 12:39 AM	First round Force Cage the fighter Quicken Shape Change via Rod shared with familiar who becomes Beholder, Familiar’s standard action opens central eye rendering the Fighter’s 13,600,000 gp worth of gear now mundane including his happy Int sword of spell casting. Which will also mess up your Shrink Item. Either you have the familiar shut it's eye, or you soak yourself in the lava when the Shrink Item is suddenly dispelled. And either way, the fighter can still kill your familiar with nonmagical arrows and his mighty longbow in a few rounds.It's low on hp and the antimagic eye will prevent a Wind Wall.
Iver Gearsham 02-14-07, 01:29 AM	spectralphoenix;11481984]Which will also mess up your Shrink Item. Either you have the familiar shut it's eye, or you soak yourself in the lava when the Shrink Item is suddenly dispelled.No Because I am not in the Cone's area being with in 5 ft. and side by side cone pointing forward. And either way, the fighter can still kill your familiar with nonmagical arrows and his mighty longbow in a few rounds.It's low on hp and the antimagic eye will prevent a Wind Wall. In one round I can put an Shrunk Iron cube to block his attacks dense smoke 50% miss chance. Not really a problem.
spectralphoenix 02-14-07, 01:54 AM	No Because I am not in the Cone's area. So how are you placing this lava in the cage? In one round I can put an Shrunk Iron cube to block his attacks dense smoke 50% miss chance. Not really a problem. If you block the fighter's shots, you also block the antimagic cone. The fighter can then get rid of the force cage and stab you. Repeatedly. I also think you're underestimating the amount of time it takes to set all this up. Even without magic, the fighter can still dish out plenty of damage with his bow and big strength score. And as soon as his arrows get out of the field, they become magical. And he could always be using a couple doses of suitably nasty poison.
Iver Gearsham 02-14-07, 01:56 AM	Why would the fighter only have +8? Don't forget the Fighter's contingency spell of quickened greater teleport or something. malignor stated out a fighter and I worked with the same starting stats as a wizard. Based on those stats/feats the fighter only has a +8. The contingency can be only for one perticular triger and it would not function in the antimagic cone.
FrostHammer 02-14-07, 02:01 AM	Then we can change his items to get more initiative. It's not that hard. The wizard will probably start out in an AMF more likely than not.
Iver Gearsham 02-14-07, 02:18 AM	spectralphoenix;11482432]So how are you placing this lava in the cage?Lava flows, toss Shrunk Item up falls in to AM cone reverts to lava over F cage flows in through bars. If you block the fighter's shots, you also block the antimagic cone. The fighter can then get rid of the force cage and stab you. Repeatedly. No as the total area of the cone is not blocked. I also think you're underestimating the amount of time it takes to set all this up. Even without magic, the fighter can still dish out plenty of damage with his bow and big strength score. And as soon as his arrows get out of the field, they become magical. And he could always be using a couple doses of suitably nasty poison. And you are forgeting mr fighter needs to use a command word (standard actions) for many damaging powers he wishes to activate. If his arrows get out of the field yes they are more dangerous but Belts of giant STR will not add in as it was not in effect to provide extra boost just 1d8 +4 damage. If you think I am hoging up rounds or going over action limits prove it I don't think I am and don't see it so what am I missing?
spectralphoenix 02-14-07, 02:48 AM	No as the total area of the cone is not blocked. In order for the fighter not to have a shot at the familiar, he would need to not have a line of sight at all. If there is no line of sight, the beholder doesn't have a line of effect to the fighter. And if any part of the cage isn't in an antimagic fireld, the fighter can use a rod of cancellation or the like and get out, then harvest your kidneys. If his arrows get out of the field yes they are more dangerous but Belts of giant STR will not add in as it was not in effect to provide extra boost just 1d8 +4 damage. Maybe, but his +5 Flaming arrows with Deathblade poison are going to hurt. If you think I am hoging up rounds or going over action limits prove it I don't think I am and don't see it so what am I missing? First Round: Wizard casts Forcecage and shapechanges familiar: Fighter attacks familiar for 6x(1d8+9+1d6 damage) the familiar only has about 40 hp give or take (half it's master's; CON doesn't matter.) It dies, negating the field. Even if he doesn't attack the familiar, he can ready an action to attack you whenever you cast with a Manyshot attack. Good luck surviving, let alone making your Concentration check to cast Wind Wall.
Terraneaux 02-14-07, 03:14 AM	Seriously, I didn't know about the Time Stop thing. But the thing is that in order to defeat a wizard, a fighter has to 'cheat' and use items to gain abilities comparable to the wizard's. The problem is that magic is *so* overpowering compared to mundane combat.
FrostHammer 02-14-07, 03:31 AM	You call it "cheating" and we call it "level 40 wealth."
Azar_of_Faerun 02-14-07, 03:32 AM	Lol @ "cheating"
spectralphoenix 02-14-07, 03:56 AM	Seriously, I didn't know about the Time Stop thing. But the thing is that in order to defeat a wizard, a fighter has to 'cheat' and use items to gain abilities comparable to the wizard's. The problem is that magic is *so* overpowering compared to mundane combat. I'm not saying that magic doesn't overpower mundane combat at high levels. However, I think this is more a question of the fighter being equipment-dependent. Fighters are built with the assumption that they'll have the appropriate amount of loot for their level. That may be unrealistic in some campaigns, but so is the assumption that the wizard will know he's fighting the fighter days in advance, run through all the possible scenarios, and choose any spells he wants from the entire list, without having to hold back reserves in case he runs into another encounter. The big issue here is that certain magical tricks, like flying, can usually only be countered by other magical tricks. Classes without magic take that into account with magical items. Consider if we had a 40th level monk, instead. He's naturally spell resistant beyond the wizard's ability to cast on, has amazing saves, and plenty of movement speed to close with the mage. Or consider if the fighter and the wizard just ran across each other, without the fighter giving the wizard an engraved invitation to the fight days in advance.
Krispieman 02-14-07, 07:25 AM	Or consider if the fighter and the wizard just ran across each other, without the fighter giving the wizard an engraved invitation to the fight days in advance. Let's also take into consideration the fact that the current "wizard builds" being used in this example are all ment to defeat the Fighter40. And while this by itself is not a problem, it is rather unrealistic (insofar as that has any meaning in the world of D&D). My fighter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11479732&postcount=97) was built to be a schoolbook example of a Fighter40, not designed to battle a specific wizard. But somehow I feel this discussion cannot end. Any Fighter40 built to defeat the wizard will invoke certain changes in the Wizard17 build to counter these, which in turn will result in alterations in the Fighter40 build to battle these changes. Say hello to the vicious circle everybody. However, perhaps if all could agree on 1 specific build per character, which focuses not on defeating the other, but general playability, then we might be able to settle this dispute with only changes to spells & tactics, instead of feats and equipment. K-man :cool:
spectralphoenix 02-14-07, 07:52 AM	First round Force Cage the fighter Quicken Shape Change via Rod shared with familiar who becomes Beholder, Familiar’s standard action opens central eye rendering the Fighter’s 13,600,000 gp worth of gear now mundane including his happy Int sword of spell casting. Ironically, the starting distance between them (100 ft.) also makes this impossible. Even if the wizard moves 30 ft towards the fighter, the range on Forcecage at that level is 65 ft.
FrostHammer 02-14-07, 03:17 PM	This is dumb because it's not the wizard vs a character, but a wiard vs tons and tons of gold and items,. Whoever claimed that a level 17 wizard wins this is an idiot.
Iver Gearsham 02-15-07, 03:40 AM	Ironically, the starting distance between them (100 ft.) also makes this impossible. Even if the wizard moves 30 ft towards the fighter, the range on Forcecage at that level is 65 ft. Yep your right But for 5500 gp Boots of Striding and Springing I have 40 ft. of movement and nail him. 40 plus 65 is 105 the barbaque is on!
not me smee 02-15-07, 04:03 AM	It all depends on the equipment the fighter has, Epic spell Restiance would stop the wizard cold and when you stack it with things like true seeing and flying items and even other SR items the wizard runs out of options
Iver Gearsham 02-15-07, 04:30 AM	spectralphoenix;In order for the fighter not to have a shot at the familiar, he would need to not have a line of sight at all. If there is no line of sight, the beholder doesn't have a line of effect to the fighter. And if any part of the cage isn't in an antimagic fireld, the fighter can use a rod of cancellation or the like and get out, then harvest your kidneys. Maybe, but his +5 Flaming arrows with Deathblade poison are going to hurt.Line of Effect is the only factor and as the area in effect completly surrounds the iron cube and the fighter it is not blocked. Your fighter line of sight problem is in his inability to attack. Your flaming arrows if luanched for a bow with the Flaming power need command word activation as the wizard did not get a free round to do such a Standard action your fighter should not get a freebe. First Round: Wizard casts Forcecage and shapechanges familiar: Fighter attacks familiar for 6x(1d8+9+1d6 damage) the familiar only has about 40 hp give or take (half it's master's; CON doesn't matter.) It dies, negating the field. Your forgeting the familiars new Con modifier that alone provides 44 HP. Heck I could Shift into a high Con stat monster and get a bucket of HP to share half of. Even if he doesn't attack the familiar, he can ready an action to attack you whenever you cast with a Manyshot attack. Good luck surviving, let alone making your Concentration check to cast Wind Wall. Contingency spell Stone Skin to activate when missiles are shot at me and share (or caste another set for it) with my familiar. Now you can say well he has the money for all Adamantium arrows and yep he could probably should.
Iver Gearsham 02-15-07, 04:33 AM	It all depends on the equipment the fighter has, Epic spell Restiance would stop the wizard cold and when you stack it with things like true seeing and flying items and even other SR items the wizard runs out of options and my attack does not allow him that comfort.
spectralphoenix 02-15-07, 09:40 AM	Line of Effect is the only factor and as the area in effect completly surrounds the iron cube and the fighter it is not blocked. Not true. Read page 175 of your PHB (the description of how emanations work) and weep. Your fighter line of sight problem is in his inability to attack. Your flaming arrows if luanched for a bow with the Flaming power need command word activation as the wizard did not get a free round to do such a Standard action your fighter should not get a freebe. Also not true. If the fighter has magic arrows, they're always magical - he doesn't need any action other than attacking for them to work. As soon as they get out of the antimagic field, they stop being suppressed and function normally. Your forgeting the familiars new Con modifier that alone provides 44 HP. Heck I could Shift into a high Con stat monster and get a bucket of HP to share half of. Yet again, not true. A familiar's hit points are equal to half it's master's, regardless of its HD or CON score. And according to the PHB 2 (I believe the most recent definition of Polymorph and related effects,) changing form will not change your hit point total and does not allow you to cast spells, even if your new form could normally do so. Contingency spell Stone Skin to activate when missiles are shot at me and share (or caste another set for it) with my familiar. Now you can say well he has the money for all Adamantium arrows and yep he could probably should. This part is true. Ability to choose what kind of special material you want to attack with is one of the great strengths of archery. The fighter certainly brought along some +5 flaming adamantine arrows.
angryman 02-15-07, 10:19 AM	This idiotic argument is, er, idiotic. "Let's put a fighter in a forcecage and..." Yeah, he's never been hit with that...teleport out? Or just shoot the idiot wizard if it's the barred version. Read my post. The fighter WILL win initiative. He WILL do about 200 damage a hit and he WILL be easily able to close to range, AND detect the wizard. Anything else is bullsh*t. I don't need to provide (more) evidence because it's blatantly obvious the wizard never had a chance in hell, ever.
Nezkrul 02-15-07, 02:42 PM	because it's blatantly obvious the wizard never had a chance in hell, ever. ...of winning this fight. :D he DOES have a better chance of surviving in Hell.
malignor 02-15-07, 07:46 PM	First round Force Cage the fighter Quicken Shape Change via Rod shared with familiar who becomes Beholder, Familiar’s standard action opens central eye rendering the Fighter’s 13,600,000 gp worth of gear now mundane including his happy Int sword of spell casting.... And also gets rid of the forcecage. Nice waste of a spell. Fighter shrugs as a free action, draws his bow while advancing his feeble 20' and seems ready for something... (FYI - I didn't pick any epic gear. My good stuff's at home. I think I spent maybe 1 million on my "pygamas")Walk over throw down some lava inside the cage and one bonfire per side so wind direction doesn’t matter and you have begun cooking smoked and roasted fighter.I'm assuming you walk that whole 30' (of the 100 we started at) with your familiar, else you wander into its AM cone. Since I was waiting for you to cast a spell, my readied shot was wasted. So I just unload into your familiar, doing 5d8+20, or 45 damage average. Your familiar is simply dead. Now we're 50' away, and I've lost 5 arrows. Your turn. OR If you managed to throw a bunch of bonfires 50' through an AMF in one standard action, then I just fire once at you (doing 7.5 damage, +5 from enhancement, +3.5 fire, total 16) and switch to my sword as I advance toward your familiar. I have all day :P Which means we're 30' away, I've taken a whole 7 fire damage, you took 16, and I'm down 1 arrow. Your turn. I felt like being nice. I could have just unloaded, doing 80 damage to you and finishing this instantly, but I like to play around. EDIT: forgot I had rapid shot :P EDIT!!: I read up on AMField - it doesn't affect forcecage. See below for actions.
angryman 02-15-07, 07:55 PM	The plan is to turn your familiar into a beholder with its Antimagic eye ray, while trapping the fighter in a magical cage? Antimagic. Magic. Something about your plan has a tiny flaw. *slap* :rolleyes: So even the most cheesy, situational, antifighter "plan" is hilariously wrong. At least it didn't include shrink item, utilising the earth's gravitation pull, pun-pun or nuclear weapons, ALL of which I have heard on these boards.
Yokomohoyo 02-16-07, 01:03 AM	Whats the fighters will save at level 40? If Im not mistaken it should be about +12... The wizard started off at 18int+4 by his 17th level he should have gotten 5 more in int right? That would make his int 23 more or less thus a +6. He should have atleast a +4 int item bringing him to 27+8. So his charm spells should be able to Dominate Person with a DC of 10+5+6= 21 +1 (spell focus)=22, sure the fighter would only have to get a 10 or better so their is a chance the fighter will fail. Thats a 50/50 chance to land. If it lands cast a gate spell to the plain of negitave energy and order the fighter into the gate. Or the wizard can time stop then cast wish to wish the fighter into the plain of fire or negative energy (since your not actualy doing harm to him its viable.)
TheCobra 02-16-07, 01:20 AM	The plan is to turn your familiar into a beholder with its Antimagic eye ray, while trapping the fighter in a magical cage? Antimagic. Magic. Something about your plan has a tiny flaw. *slap* Well, wall of force explicitly laughs at antimagic effects. Forcecage probably does the same, thought it's not 100% clear.
spectralphoenix 02-16-07, 01:47 AM	Whats the fighters will save at level 40? If Im not mistaken it should be about +12... The wizard started off at 18int+4 by his 17th level he should have gotten 5 more in int right? That would make his int 23 more or less thus a +6. He should have atleast a +4 int item bringing him to 27+8. So his charm spells should be able to Dominate Person with a DC of 10+5+6= 21 +1 (spell focus)=22, sure the fighter would only have to get a 10 or better so their is a chance the fighter will fail. Thats a 50/50 chance to land. If it lands cast a gate spell to the plain of negitave energy and order the fighter into the gate. Or the wizard can time stop then cast wish to wish the fighter into the plain of fire or negative energy (since your not actualy doing harm to him its viable.) The fighter's base save is +18, and something in his 13 million gold probably gives him a nice bonus, assuming he didn't just take Epic Will or whatever the feat is. He also probably has SR of some sort and an Amulet of the Planes. And I wouldn't allow a Wish like that. Unwillingly sending someone else to another plane is certainly more powerful than an 8th level spell. Any plan that relies on custom wishes to work is reliant on DM fiat (and this one is a little blatantly overpowered - by that reasoning you could kill anything not capable of planar travel with a wish.)
Witch 02-16-07, 08:18 AM	Whats the fighters will save at level 40? If Im not mistaken it should be about +12... The wizard started off at 18int+4 by his 17th level he should have gotten 5 more in int right? That would make his int 23 more or less thus a +6. He should have atleast a +4 int item bringing him to 27+8. So his charm spells should be able to Dominate Person with a DC of 10+5+6= 21 +1 (spell focus)=22, sure the fighter would only have to get a 10 or better so their is a chance the fighter will fail. Thats a 50/50 chance to land. If it lands cast a gate spell to the plain of negitave energy and order the fighter into the gate. Or the wizard can time stop then cast wish to wish the fighter into the plain of fire or negative energy (since your not actualy doing harm to him its viable.) Vest of True Resistance: +5 sacred bonus, +5 insight bonus, +5 luck bonus and +5 resistance bonus to saving throws. 200,000 gp Calculated by your very own item creation guidelines. Base save bonus at level 40 for a fighter is 6 + 10 = 16. With this item, that turns into a 36. So go ahead. Dream. You won't affect this guy with a spell that allows a save.
kainpendragon 02-16-07, 09:00 AM	Let me take a crack at it. Wizard:77hp Fighter:380hp round one Wiz: Fly Fighter: Arrows (6 hit rest miss) 3+2+5+3+2+6=21hp Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 380hp Wiz: Avasulate + quickened teleport Fighter: Stairs at the wizard Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 190hp Wiz: Maxed+Empowered Lighting Bolt= 90hp/2=45 Fighter: Curses Not being able to fly but reflexes for 1/2dmg Wiz: 56hp Fighter: 145 Wizard: Quickened teleport + Power Word Kill Fighter: grabs 3d6 and starts rolling Then again it can go badly for the wiz if the fighter wins the initative and grapples/sunders the wiz's spell book...anything can happen. you forgot in round one the fight more then likely has + 10 arrows that hit and damge 6 hits wizard and at that level fighting would more then likely take a ring of evasion when fighting a wizard thus he would take zero damage. the wizard only hope are spells like gate but they way i play get is even if you summon something from it does not mean it going to listen to you. i make wizard try to bargin with what ever they gate in or they will end up having to fight it also.
Nezkrul 02-16-07, 09:50 AM	Vest of True Resistance: +5 sacred bonus, +5 insight bonus, +5 luck bonus and +5 resistance bonus to saving throws. 200,000 gp Calculated by your very own item creation guidelines. I think you botched your math a little. +5 Sacred (50,000) + +5 Insight (50,000x1.5) + +5 Luck (50,000x1.5) + +5 Resistance (25,000x1.5) = 237,500gp; requires Craft Epic Wondrous Item, and it rightly should cuz +20 to all saves is definitely epic. But yah, the fighter is going to be immune to all elemental damage, mind affecting spells and effects, SR of atleast 40, and have at least a +27 for all his saves. Wizard loses every time.
Witch 02-16-07, 09:58 AM	Hmm, no, I didn't botch my math. It appears to be a DM houserule on the pricing, which I didn't notice at first. My point obviously remains valid, though. It's 237,500 gold pieces. Might require the epic feat, but it's definitely something the fighter would get.
kainpendragon 02-16-07, 10:29 AM	malignor stated out a fighter and I worked with the same starting stats as a wizard. Based on those stats/feats the fighter only has a +8. The contingency can be only for one perticular triger and it would not function in the antimagic cone. well relizeing your the dumbest wizard ever turning your fimalr into the beholder was stupid. because it just dispelled your force cage. you forgot this because your where so cocky you figured you would just walk up to the fighter and go throw the lava on him. round one you do your thing fight tried to movie relize he in a force cage deiced to hold his turn. becuase you start to walk to him as you changed your fimlar into a beholder fighter knows the cage is gone that to the fimlar. he holds turn until you get 15 ft from him as soon as you get there he take a double move and gets right next to you. oh dam the moment you got next to you all his gear started to work again. round 3 you screwed you can't cast a spell because AOO and he will get to do it to your from a feat even if you cast devsively. if you fimalrs turns to and keeps his eye on the fighter you just dispelled eveythiing you have to. and even with mundan item the fighter smiles bend you over and you take it like a man. because your just screwed your self. a level 17 fighter could kill you with this plan the beholder is your greast flaw. anti magic prevents you from casting any spells at the fighter because of as soon as the spell hits his square it negated it also if put on you prevents you from doing anything. the only thing anti magic is good for is kill spell casters.
malignor 02-16-07, 11:51 AM	NOTE: I just read up on antimagic field, ant it lists wall of force (and by transitivity, forcecage) as being unaffected by the antimagic cone. Thus the Beholder AMcone doesn't stop the forcecage. However. The fighter can still find the 1/2" holes in the cage and use them like arrows slits: Full cover unless you're shooting through by putting your bow right up against the cage, fitting the arrows through the hole already. The wizard has 100 feet to cover. Round 1 he covers 30' and then casts (forcecage is short range) and then the fighter figures out what's going on (walks unknowingly toward cage while drawing bow, bumps into it and feels around). Round 2 the wizard covers 60' and is 10' away, and the fighter begins his volley of arrows and the wizard is dead. Rapid shot, strength 18, and the arrows are magic when they hit the wizard. 1d8+4str+5enh+1d6fire = 4.5+3.5+9 = 17 damage per arrow, 5 arrows, 85 damage. Dead wizard. Suppose the wizard survived. Unlikely, but possible. Round 3, the wizard throws however much lava he can at the cage, even though the inside of the cage has full cover, minus some 1/2" holes. As a result, a few splatters get in the cage, effectively doing nothing. Now the wizard has a choice here: Throw once (useless lava) and move, or throw twice (useless lava, and a bonfire for cover) and 5' step to throw off the fighter. The problem is, the fighter knows this already. So he does another full volley, one per square. 5 Arrows. The fighter has an 11% chance of hitting the wizard per shot, and if he hits with #1, the wizard sucks on 5 arrows. If he hits with #2, the wizard eats 4 arrows, and so on. But there's a 45% chance that the fighter didn't get the right square. Suppose the wizard survived. The probability is low, but that's fine. So the fighter is in the middle of a 20x20' cage, with bonfires all around him. He has full cover, full concealment, is in an antimagic zone and is in a cage that can only be removed by the wizard's cancellation of the spell. So he crouches in the middle, 10' away from any fire, and lower than the fires themselves. Newsflash: these are not forest fires. They are normal bonfires. In order for bonfires to last long, they have to burn relatively clean. In order for them to have alot of smoke, they can't burn relatively clean. As a result, either they are smoky and short-lived, or they are not smoky but last awhile. Either way, the fighter can sit there, 10' away from any fire, tugging on his bowstring (which will become easier when the AMF ends and his Belt of Giant Strength starts working again), tapping his foot against the forcecage (so he knows if you cancel it), waiting for a sign of where you are so he can finish you off. It's now a waiting game.
StruckingFuggle 02-16-07, 12:55 PM	C) The wizard has a contingency? He might even survive the first round and escape. Guess what that means? The wizard has LOST. Running away means you lose. It's even in the DMG. Be that as it may, that if the foe flees you "win" in terms of getting xp, I think that it can hardly be termed "winning" if the foe who fled did so to prepare and comes back later to kill you, probably in your sleep. Not saying that a Wiz17 who escapes your Ftr40 would do so (seriously, with that much wealth, it's absurd - but only due to the mass wealth disparity and the fact the wizard is four levels short of taking the feat Spellcasters Win) ... merely saying that your statement is ridiculous. Yes, it's technically true, but it's extremely shortsighted.
Witch 02-16-07, 01:00 PM	The fighter can just use Escape Artist to escape the forcecage. Takes him a high Dex, the ability to acquire it as a class skill, and a +30 item.
StruckingFuggle 02-16-07, 01:19 PM	A: Actually, it's possible for the Wizard to win iniative. If he knew the fighter was coming. Sure, it's a 40th level fighter, but this is one-on-one. We assume neither of 'em has a posse (except, perhaps, beyond Leadership, but let's leave that one out for the sake of simplicity) ... In light of which, he buys a Greater Metarod of Maximize...: Scry + Teleport to within range - surprise round? in which case initative is moot ... Maximized Time Stop, Extended Cloudkill (Minimum 340 con damage), and then Dimensional Anchor and Forcecage the fighter in a Forcebox (the solid kind) with the cloudkill. Though I guess by now the Fighter has some sort of way to cast amf to negate at least the cloudkill (and the anchor, but oops, there goes your teleport, too), and Forcebox doesn't cut off oxygen... ... Actually, it's beyond cheese, but it is also legal - the Wizard can do it like this if he can get +3 to his caster level (shouldn't be too hard one way or the other) - all he needs to do is use Planeshift + Gate, likely to the Positive/Negative Energy Plane - and then just command him to kill himself - or better yet, use his Disjunction item to disjoin himself (willingly failing all saves) and then kill himself. You've got 20 rounds in which he has to do whatever you say. The Planeshift / Gate trick is one every 17+ wizard probably knows and keeps on hand for when the need arises (it's like Vanish-XDoom, I mean, its broken but sometimes you need to break someone... :P) ... the initative thing is more a "find a wizard assassin" sort of thing, though. So the point is to be trying to kill the fighter, rather than have the fighter trying to kill you (due to surprise rounds and timestop).
Witch 02-16-07, 01:22 PM	Scry + Teleport to within range - surprise round? The fighter has mindblank or nondetection going by virtue of a magic item. He didn't get to epic level by being moronic. Extended Cloudkill (Minimum 340 con damage) Care to clarify that? ... Actually, it's beyond cheese, but it is also legal - the Wizard can do it like this if he can get +3 to his caster level (shouldn't be too hard one way or the other) - all he needs to do is use Planeshift + Gate, likely to the Positive/Negative Energy Plane - and then just command him to kill himself - or better yet, use his Disjunction item to disjoin himself (willingly failing all saves) and then kill himself. You've got 20 rounds in which he has to do whatever you say. No, you don't. If you specify a unique individual, he gets to pick what he does. You don't command him at all.
Kimokeo 02-16-07, 01:25 PM	Fighter wins initiative. Fighter: Crunch - dead wizard. Wizard wins initiative. The Wish spell, the mightest spell in the game. If that spell cannot be utilized to win the fight then nothing will. A 40th level mage still only has 9th level spells. There isn't anything higher. So Wish is it. I also laugh when I hear about the Fighter having all kinds of resistances to magic - like the mage is going to cast a spell AT him. By 17th level, you know spells are better directed elsewhere to kill. If I take my 17th level wizard against this 40th level fighter underwater, I'm going to win...
Witch 02-16-07, 01:26 PM	The Wish spell, the mightest spell in the game. If that spell cannot be utilized to win the fight then nothing will. A 40th level mage still only has 9th level spells. There isn't anything higher. So Wish is it. At 40th level, you have epic spellcasting and ISC. Wish can't be utilised to "win a fight".
Kimokeo 02-16-07, 01:30 PM	Depends on how you word WISH. There are many things you can wish for that will kill without having to direct it AT anyone. Wording is key and Wish is extraordinary when properly done. Once this spell comes into play, it's time to retire. Alignment is another. If they're evil, who decides when the 'round 1' starts...:evillaugh
Witch 02-16-07, 01:38 PM	Depends on how you word WISH. There are many things you can wish for that will kill without having to direct it AT anyone. Wording is key and Wish is extraordinary when properly done. Once this spell comes into play, it's time to retire. Wording is irrelevant for a wish. What matters is that it needs to be in line for a ninth level spell.
malignor 02-16-07, 01:41 PM	To be perfectly honest, I could make a Wizard17 that can do the deed. The only trick is to make sure that the wizard can survive long enough to do what needs to be done. Fragility is the issue. Timestop {Disjunction, Forcecage, Mislead} - Disjunction wastes all possible means of teleportation - Forcecage stops all other forms of movement - Mislead turns you invisible and make an illusionary copy for the fighter to waste arrows on. Every round, cast a spell and move silently. Stay 65' away from the fighter (max range for "Short" range spells), which makes him -6 on listen check to locate you. Then cast Summon Swarm a bunch in there, or maybe some Flaming Spheres and a Mordenkainen's sword or two. Then make a few illusory walls (outside the forcecage, so he can't interact with em) to throw off the fighter's perception of where you are. When the invisibility is about to wear off, throw in an Acid Fog and use your extra 1min:42sec to set up the environment some more. Permanent Image, for example. = = = = = = Here's another trick to start off on the right foot. Time Stop {Prismatic Wall, Telekinetic Sphere, Delay action} action delayed: as soon as time starts, shove the sphere (containing the fighter) through the Prismatic Wall. Now he has no equipment and soaked up some sweet damage.
StruckingFuggle 02-16-07, 01:47 PM	Okay, yes, oops, I misread Gate. Huh. I had thought that trick only failed against Gods. Ah well.... and you can't get a caster level equal to 25 ... 20, maybe, but 25 ... so you can't gate in a Half-Fiend something to Blasphemy the Fighter into death ... But between all the templates you could slap on that raise CR but not HD (including Paragon), I bet you could find something with CL*2 HD that would be CR Far Greater Than 40 to gate in. And when you've got a 40 HD Paragon Dragon, chances are most of its treasure is wearable items, too. ... Or just gate in your epic-level wizard big brother to get the mean spoiled rich kid to stop picking on you. :D The fighter has mindblank or nondetection going by virtue of a magic item. He didn't get to epic level by being moronic. He might have those spells, but Wizards don't get to 17th level by not being geniuses. Even if you can't find a particular object directly, mindblank and nondetection don't hide his effects on the world and don't prohibit finding him indirectly. Care to clarify that? Sure. Cloudkill: "A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage). Holding one’s breath doesn’t help, but creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell." ... so okay, poison immunity nullifies it. But still. Duration of Cloudkill is 1 min/level. Level 17 wizard: That's 17 minutes, or 170 rounds. Extended, it's 34 minutes, or 340 rounds. That's 340 rounds of 1d4 con damage (fort half): if we assume he makes the save every round, that's still 1d2 con damage, min 340.... ...Wait, no, it's roll for damage and then halve it, not 'half damage', so it's (1d4)/2, and we can assume he'll always make the roll, so it'll average 170 con damage. EDIT: Wait a minute. Let me quote gate, here. "By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord." It seems like "unique individual" is not the same as "unique being"... either that or Gate contradicts itself. Because said 40th level fighter is indeed "a particular being".
kainpendragon 02-16-07, 01:56 PM	[QUOTE=malignor;11506557]NOTE: I just read up on antimagic field, ant it lists wall of force (and by transitivity, forcecage) as being unaffected by the antimagic cone. Thus the Beholder AMcone doesn't stop the forcecage. I just read that but as a DM I would allow anti magic to work (aka house rule it). Because this is flawed that it does not saying a force effect is non magic and that spells like magic missle are non and should work in an anti magic field. I would rule as anti as it says about anti magic field that things that are conjured and have no magical nature would still exsite in anti magic field. such as wall of iron , wall of ice. but spells that leave a magical effect should be nulled out while in the field that was the point of the spell in all other edtions of the game. I don't remeber but can some one correct me and tell me if was a 8th level spell in 2nd and frist edtion instead of 6th level. I also feel that anti magic should be ranked there. but give the what you said i would say a 40 level could still win with bow and arrow. but a 17th level would probley die. I would also check the caster weathly and what he baught becuase he may not have the money for compents used to cast the spells he did. also you would have to know when such bonfire and lava where taken and how are they beening mantined and stored on your person. the lava will have to stay hot for 2 days and the bonfires will still have to be feed. so where do you store such a item. the lava even thou shrunk is going to matain it heat and melt thru just about any thing you can store it in. the fires will burn any item you put them in. and if you do have such a way to store such things how long before the lava turn into nothing but a hot rock. and the fires eat them self out.
solbergb 02-16-07, 02:05 PM	Hey.. i dont know where this quite fits, so if wrong section move it please. Anyway.. as topic. A friend of mine tells me that given 100ft between the two and a days prep time, that a 17th level wizard could beat a 40th level fighter just about every time. That even without te prep time and average spells memorised, that the wizard would still have the advantage and win most tmes. It just kind of rubs me wrong somehow. Can anyone give an example of why this would be true? I dunno. An epic fighter level 40 can have all of this pretty easily: 1. Ability to reflect any ray or other weaponlike spell that has an attack roll the wizard shoots back at the wizard, as many times as he likes. There is also a shield that reflects targeted stuff back at the wizard, and items that give evasion. This pretty much takes away all the wizard boom, combined with #4. 2. The ability to force a zillion very high fort saves should the wizard ever be foolish enough to get into melee range, assuming the melee damage doesn't just kill the wiz outright. 3. The ability to dish out 500-1000 points of ranged damage. With certain weapons this can even fire through barriers like walls of force (much less wind walls) and ignore concealment. If he knows your square, he can kill you at range. There is no reason a fighter L40 wouldn't have this capability. Mobility is a given in epic play, and many epic monsters are more dangerous to the fighter in melee than at range. 4. Saving throws high enough to resist anything the wiz can do on a "2", and several rerolls (luckblades are dirt cheap at level 40). Yes, that includes will saves vs Mordekeinen's disjunction. 5. freedom of movement, flight, teleport and dimension door via items and/or conumables, plus items like Robe of Eyes which defeat most concealment to help with the pinpointing. 6. AC so high that anything the wiz can gate in can't touch the PC. for magical stuff, see #1 and and #4. I'm not seeing it, unless the L40 guy didn't buy anything useful with his cash and didn't actually make use of all the epic feats he receives (and normal feats for that matter). If the wiz gets the drop on him somehow maybe, gets his time stop off and does something very clever he might get lucky. I'd put my money on the fighter to just shake it off and vaporize the wiz with ranged attacks though, or a single attack if the wiz needs to be close enough that charging is possible. A level 21 guy, yeah. Give a wizard 2 days of prep time and information about a foe, and he can come up with something pretty nasty to overcome a 4 level difference. The L21 fighter though will likely do a number on the L17 wizard if both just bump into each other. 100' isn't nearly enough either. Charge range for an epic fighter is 180', or 160' in heavy armor. They can all fly and they can all do haste as a free action, with just core stuff.
TheCobra 02-16-07, 02:15 PM	The fighter can just use Escape Artist to escape the forcecage. Takes him a high Dex, the ability to acquire it as a class skill, and a +30 item. How many fighters, even epic ones, actually put ranks into escape artist? It seem a little unlikely to me. The fighter's lack of spot is another thing to wizard might be able to use, combined with superior invisibility. Even if the fighter has full cross-class ranks and a +30 item, making a DC 92+ check (assuming the wizard's more than 120 feet away) is going to be hard.
kainpendragon 02-16-07, 02:17 PM	Okay, yes, oops, I misread Gate. Huh. I had thought that trick only failed against Gods. Ah well.... and you can't get a caster level equal to 25 ... 20, maybe, but 25 ... so you can't gate in a Half-Fiend something to Blasphemy the Fighter into death ... But between all the templates you could slap on that raise CR but not HD (including Paragon), I bet you could find something with CL*2 HD that would be CR Far Greater Than 40 to gate in. And when you've got a 40 HD Paragon Dragon, chances are most of its treasure is wearable items, too. EDIT: Wait a minute. Let me quote gate, here. "By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord." It seems like "unique individual" is not the same as "unique being"... either that or Gate contradicts itself. Because said 40th level fighter is indeed "a particular being". this the flaw in the spell I would say a monster with a bunch of templets would be pretty unique thus meaning the wizard can't control it. I think gate was supposed to read the creature ELC.
itwasntme 02-16-07, 02:27 PM	No in Epic level things start to change ALOT The Epic fighter inless lame and cought offguard would win the battle/fight Inless its a horrible fighter No a level 40 rouge would win the day ... more then likly allways no im not even sure you need to be level 40 rouge epic level rouges are just beefy ... No the lvl 40 fighter vs the lvl 17 wizard is allmost 100% Chance of the fighter winning i say allmost coz first off the wizard could be punpun (Well not punpun but you get my point) And the fighter could just want to die ... or he could just be rolling 500 nat 1's in a row ... No the Fighter will win the fight with the wizard being that low of a level upgrade the wizards level then we will talk differntly coz epic level makes eveyone good in one way or another inless you compare them agest epic level
solbergb 02-16-07, 02:29 PM	A: Actually, it's possible for the Wizard to win iniative. If he knew the fighter was coming. Sure, it's a 40th level fighter, but this is one-on-one. We assume neither of 'em has a posse (except, perhaps, beyond Leadership, but let's leave that one out for the sake of simplicity) ... In light of which, he buys a Greater Metarod of Maximize...: Scry + Teleport to within range - surprise round? in which case initative is moot ... Maximized Time Stop, Extended Cloudkill (Minimum 340 con damage), and then Dimensional Anchor and Forcecage the fighter in a Forcebox (the solid kind) with the cloudkill. He'll beat your will save on the scry attempt. He needs a "2" and has rerolls. Even if you somehow succeed, you use up the surprise round teleporting in. Lets say you beat his initiative. Assuming the dim anchor is quickened. You can drop the cloudkill during timestop and the forcecage. You can't dim anchor during the timestop, as you can't target with any attack or spell during a timestop. Round 1 the wizard is hit by his own dim anchor, as it is reflected at him. wiz forcecages and cloudkills the fighter. fighter dimension doors or teleports out of the forcecage, and ends up 1500' from the wizard. Wizard is now screwed. Forcecage is close range. The fighter is immune to his rays, his long rage area effect spells (due to FoM or evasion+needing a 2 on saves) and targeted spells. Wizard can't even teleport away. The wiz gets to do one thing. Then the fighter shoots him with his bow because of feats and enchantments ignores cover, concealment and range mods, and does enough damge to kill the wiz 5 times over. Dimensional lock works better...you could do lock, cloudkill and forcecage all during a time stop and use your last action to teleport away so he can't kill you. Then the fighter just laughs and waits out the duration, since he's immune to poison from the hero feast he's eaten every day of his life since he was level 12. Or don't you think that a L40 fighter can afford to spend one feat on a cohort to take care off such obvious things. Should the wizard return, he'll die. The fighter is also fairly likely by then to have a way of getting a message remotely to someone who can get him out of the cage. This is all assuming Freedom of Movement doesn't just let you walk through a forcecage.
itwasntme 02-16-07, 02:41 PM	Line of Effect is the only factor and as the area in effect completly surrounds the iron cube and the fighter it is not blocked. Your fighter line of sight problem is in his inability to attack. Your flaming arrows if luanched for a bow with the Flaming power need command word activation as the wizard did not get a free round to do such a Standard action your fighter should not get a freebe. Your forgeting the familiars new Con modifier that alone provides 44 HP. Heck I could Shift into a high Con stat monster and get a bucket of HP to share half of. Contingency spell Stone Skin to activate when missiles are shot at me and share (or caste another set for it) with my familiar. Now you can say well he has the money for all Adamantium arrows and yep he could probably should. so you give the fimiler 4Extra HP and that should solve eveything? No thats just dumb If i remeber the fighter was doing some 150+ Damage even if thats cut in half thats still more then the familers HP Totol theres no way a level 17 wizard can take on a level 40 fighter inless A)The fighter just sucks horribly for a fighter B)The people playing/doing the match up just hate fighters so much they wount listen to reason C)the Wizard is some kind of PunPun and shouldnt be allowed in most normol games D)Allso remeber ... there epic level there becomes so much crap in epic level that nothing can realy take them out but other epic level type creatures the only way this is not followed is there low epic level people (Like level 21 characters they just became epic level) Then its understable if they lost to a level 17 creature/character Get much higher then that and you eather wish to die or its punpun or something is aiding the wizard ALOT Like the fighter starts combat with 1 HP or something eles like that Look make the wizard epic level then start talking
solbergb 02-16-07, 02:46 PM	Also there is the pretty obvious thing that any L40 fighter has either a way to generate antimagic field from an item (spell storing perhaps, or even UMD scroll) and can easily walk out of any trap involving magic that doesn't kill him outright. You're going to run out of spells before he runs out of counters. If he ever gets a chance to shoot you, you die.
itwasntme 02-16-07, 02:49 PM	When your epic level many things change from normol levels Death from massive damage is just not excisting anymore Timestop funtions differntly in fact alot differntly many things funtion differntly You gotta figure Epic level character allready get bonus's to things they state that epic level characters should allready get the Luck domain and if you have it they get 1 more use of it non epic level characters dount get this effect Its ... to say simple Epic level many things are differnt You can have no items at all and start winning any non epic battles it becomes dumb like that Many rules/situations change then they do at normol levels Go ahead have anti magic field up the Rouge is still flying ... Becouse of skill checks Thats just one of the main abuseing ways of Epic level characters can start having magic powers as supernatrual abilitys or just has skill checks that do it for him Bluff to domintate people Tumble to avoid all damage when falling no matter the hight or what eles Balence on air to fly or even higher checks to do better things then that this is just what skill checks can do for you there are many other forms your epic level character can do agest other epic level creatures this is deadly as characters have many more things to worrie about and new things to worrie about
StruckingFuggle 02-16-07, 02:50 PM	A: I really doubt FoM lets you walk through a Forcecage. B: Yeah, I forgot about immunity to poison. C: Oops. Yes. I'd meant Dimensional Lock, rather than Anchor. D: Yeah, like I said, due to wealth, the fighter is gonna win (unless the Gate trick works, it really depends on the definition of things). Though it's an interesting puzzle ... I'm trying to figure out ... there might be away. An initative to beat the fighter is possible, so what's needed now is something that would kill him if he was in a forcecage with it, since Cloudkill doesn't work .... *muses* )
itwasntme 02-16-07, 02:52 PM	He'll beat your will save on the scry attempt. He needs a "2" and has rerolls. Even if you somehow succeed, you use up the surprise round teleporting in. Lets say you beat his initiative. Assuming the dim anchor is quickened. You can drop the cloudkill during timestop and the forcecage. You can't dim anchor during the timestop, as you can't target with any attack or spell during a timestop. Round 1 the wizard is hit by his own dim anchor, as it is reflected at him. wiz forcecages and cloudkills the fighter. fighter dimension doors or teleports out of the forcecage, and ends up 1500' from the wizard. Wizard is now screwed. Forcecage is close range. The fighter is immune to his rays, his long rage area effect spells (due to FoM or evasion+needing a 2 on saves) and targeted spells. Wizard can't even teleport away. The wiz gets to do one thing. Then the fighter shoots him with his bow because of feats and enchantments ignores cover, concealment and range mods, and does enough damge to kill the wiz 5 times over. Dimensional lock works better...you could do lock, cloudkill and forcecage all during a time stop and use your last action to teleport away so he can't kill you. Then the fighter just laughs and waits out the duration, since he's immune to poison from the hero feast he's eaten every day of his life since he was level 12. Or don't you think that a L40 fighter can afford to spend one feat on a cohort to take care off such obvious things. Should the wizard return, he'll die. The fighter is also fairly likely by then to have a way of getting a message remotely to someone who can get him out of the cage. This is all assuming Freedom of Movement doesn't just let you walk through a forcecage. if the fighter is level 40 he's going to have a high skill or 2 and skills in epic level just make non epic level spells look dumb The fighter if he has Escape artest (Yes even if he cross class in it) Can escape from such spells No the Rouge (Sense they have the highest amount of Skill points along with other things) Rule the High level epic battles and with Ini the fighter would probly have to roll a 1 and the wizard will have to roll a nat 20 then maybe the wizard can beat his ini by 1 point thats very unlikly
itwasntme 02-16-07, 03:00 PM	A: I really doubt FoM lets you walk through a Forcecage. B: Yeah, I forgot about immunity to poison. C: Oops. Yes. I'd meant Dimensional Lock, rather than Anchor. D: Yeah, like I said, due to wealth, the fighter is gonna win (unless the Gate trick works, it really depends on the definition of things). Though it's an interesting puzzle ... I'm trying to figure out ... there might be away. An initative to beat the fighter is possible, so what's needed now is something that would kill him if he was in a forcecage with it, since Cloudkill doesn't work .... *muses* ) the fighter dosnt even need his Welth items to win the fight Just take some epic level feats and use the epic level skill checks to his favor Hell being able to use Escape Artist to pass thorugh a wall of force or other effects like that is a Great way to ignore holding type spells Hell even a lower check to pass thought extreamly tight spaces like a 1/10 of an inch gap Epic level is just something that means anyone can win the battle whos the smarter player tho?
StruckingFuggle 02-16-07, 03:03 PM	Okay, so the Fighter has that many ranks in Escape Artist? That's ... unlikely. That's "building specifically to escape from this one tactic" ...
Adolfo_Mondschein 02-16-07, 03:04 PM	I like this Idea for a fight, A 40th level Wilder vs a 40th level Fighter. Yay overpowered, psionic disintegrate! Or maybe Tornado Blast.... hmmm what do you think? How would your overpowered wilder smush the fighter? Could you make a fighter who could take some of those hits? That seems much more interesting to me.... As for the 40th level fighter, there are some feats you can take now so that even if you roll a one, you don't auto fail. That 17th level wizard is done for.
malignor 02-16-07, 03:19 PM	Okay, so the Fighter has that many ranks in Escape Artist? That's ... unlikely. That's "building specifically to escape from this one tactic" ...The fighter I made is already unaffected by Cloudkill, as per his Necklace of Adaptation. Does the wizard know this? Did he stop time and Identify all the items on the Fighter? He can't even see into the cloud either, as it blocks vision like a Fog Cloud. Meanwhile, the fighter has an arrow ready... Then, 4 rounds later, the cloud passes by the force cage (Cloudkill moves) and the fighter unloads. Did the wizard prepare for this? Could he have known?
LordBOB777 02-16-07, 03:21 PM	If the fighter is using a Bow, surely he wold have a better than 18 str. Im thinking of more like 30 str AT LEAST. An item that gives +8 to ALL stats is only 5.4 million. Lets say fighter starts with a 16 str. +5 tombs, +6-8 Item, and some from level ups, a 30 is plausible, if not expected/gauranteed. 4 attacks from full BAB and one more from haste, along with the splitting ability, and maybe something like many shot, and Im PRETTY SURE the fighter wins in the first round. A +10 Composite Longbow with a +10 Str. Mod is MIN 1d8+20 Per hit. I believe that with splitting, 5 arrows turn into 10. At 1d8+20 per hit x9 hits (Assuming he fumbles once) thats MIN of 180 damage. Personally I had a fighter/paladin/Paragon that can fly, has true seeing, Freedom of movement, rings of 3 wishes, evasion, Im Mind Blanked and Death Warded. Seriously, unless the fighter has NOTHING and acts like an idiot, he cant loose
StruckingFuggle 02-16-07, 03:31 PM	Lets say fighter starts with a 16 str. +5 tombs, +6-8 Item, and some from level ups, a 30 is plausible, if not expected/gauranteed. Oooh, what are these magical locations where the buried dead give you stat ups? Hah. :P "Tomes". Though the idea of +5 Tombs is pretty amusing... The fighter I made is already unaffected by Cloudkill, as per his Necklace of Adaptation. Yes, and like I already said, okay, it won't work. Does the wizard know this? Did he stop time and Identify all the items on the Fighter? No, but he likely knows the item exists. Keep in mind, he has at least 19 intelligence. And likely knows at least one epic npc and knows what epic and mundane items are capable of. And he's probably done his research. Actually, due to that being a possibility, it's a nonissue - a 19+ int wizard wouldn't use Cloudkill in such a situation, he'd plan for things that for which the fighter has no defense. (Like Gate). Then, 4 rounds later, the cloud passes by the force cage (Cloudkill moves) and the fighter unloads. Did the wizard prepare for this? Could he have known? How does it 'pass outside' / 'move' past/through the sealed Cubic Cell containing it?
malignor 02-16-07, 03:41 PM	- Int19 is not equal to omniscience. It also does not provide free psychic powers. - There are many items that would make someone immune to Cloudkill. - There are also feats, spells and class abilities that make someone immune to Cloudkill. I'm curious how the Gate would work as a tactic in an arena situation. The wizard would have to survive long enough to actually Gate in anything. If this is not an arena situation, an epic character will gain even more of an advantage because in the setting, he can do more in less time. How does it 'pass outside' / 'move' past/through the sealed Cubic Cell containing it?There are 2 configs for the force cage. One has openings, like bars, and is 20x20x20 feet. That would allow the Cloudkill to pass. The second is the 10x10x10 feet windowless room. This version, as per Wall of Force, gives its own problem: "Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm)" Please make another spellcraft check.
StruckingFuggle 02-16-07, 03:48 PM	That's true. We need a setup for it. When you say "can a 17 Wiz beat an epic fighter", there's three possible situations: Arena Combat (stupid, almost never happens anyway): Win: Fighter. Fighter 40 goes to kill Wizard 17: Dunno why it'd happen, but Advantage: Fighter. Wizard 17 decides to try and kill Fighter 40: Advantage: Wizard by far. He can use tricks like Gate, where the Fighter has no real warning before it comes. And I didn't say Int 19 equaled omniscience or psychic powers, but it does mean a genius-level intellect with capacity of logical thought. He doesn't KNOW what the fighter has, but he can make some damn good guesses (and also attempt to figure it out via research) ... he can figure out what common and uncommon immunities are, easily, and either attack him from rarely protected angles, or attack him so indirectly that SR and Saves and Immunities don't become an issue to begin with (like DimAnchor and Forcecage, though there's no good spell to put into the Forcecage that I've found yet, or the aforementioned Gate)...
spectralphoenix 02-16-07, 04:03 PM	Dimensional Lock allows SR. It can't stop the fighter in his Mantle of Epic Spell Resistence. As for Gate, I don't think it would actually work. It's not a question of whether the wizard can find a monster capable of killing the fighter in a straight fight, it's whether the wizard can get something that will stop the fighter from butchering him on his next turn. Even if he manages to Gate in something and escape, the fighter can simply teleport away as well, without fighting the monstrosity. I already explained why a barred cage + Beholder won't work. A windowless cell doesn't let antimagic in and can be teleported out of. Even if the wizard escapes to try another day, he's down 1,000 xp while the fighter hasn't lost anything.
StruckingFuggle 02-16-07, 04:13 PM	As for Gate, I don't think it would actually work. It's not a question of whether the wizard can find a monster capable of killing the fighter in a straight fight, it's whether the wizard can get something that will stop the fighter from butchering him on his next turn. Even if he manages to Gate in something and escape, the fighter can simply teleport away as well, without fighting the monstrosity. Which is why you don't Gate in something to kill the fighter with. You gate the fighter to another plane and get him to disjoin himself (getting rid of contingiencies and the like) and kill himself.
Nephlite 02-16-07, 04:17 PM	Dimensional Lock allows SR. It can't stop the fighter in his Mantle of Epic Spell Resistence. As for Gate, I don't think it would actually work. It's not a question of whether the wizard can find a monster capable of killing the fighter in a straight fight, it's whether the wizard can get something that will stop the fighter from butchering him on his next turn. Even if he manages to Gate in something and escape, the fighter can simply teleport away as well, without fighting the monstrosity. I already explained why a barred cage + Beholder won't work. A windowless cell doesn't let antimagic in and can be teleported out of. Even if the wizard escapes to try another day, he's down 1,000 xp while the fighter hasn't lost anything. If the Fighter runs, he lost. Tis the rules for beating an encounter. So Wiz got exp from winning.
elondir 02-16-07, 04:19 PM	If I were the wizard, I would cast a quickened fly and protection from arrows, then mordenkainen's disjunction on the fighter, followed with time stop and a bunch of sudden metamagicked scorching rays. BUT A 40th level fighter might have 20 ranks in Use Magic Device, and will probably have a belt of magnificnece +6, used wishes for +5 inherent bonuses to all his scores (40th level gets 13,600,000 gp, the wish scrolls are only 28,500 gp each), and might have a bunch of exotic ability bonuses as well. That means he might have a decent UMD check for using scrolls, staves, and wands. If that's the case, he can go one-for-one with the wizard magically, at least until his charges and scrolls run out. And the fighter has access to epic magic items - imagine a UMD fighter with a scroll of mordenkainen's disjunction an epic staff of necromancy, a few scrolls of quickened harm, a +6 keen greater wounding thundering greatsword. He's also likely to have a ring of universal energy immunity and a ring of spell turning. I'd side with the fighter, unless the wizard can get through the fighter's energy immunities and lob a bunch of metamagicked scorching rays (I saw a build that did something like 60,000hp damage in a single round thanks to time stop and metamagic feats).
StruckingFuggle 02-16-07, 04:36 PM	If I were the wizard, I would cast a quickened fly and protection from arrows, then mordenkainen's disjunction on the fighter, followed with time stop and a bunch of sudden metamagicked scorching rays. BUT A 40th level fighter might have 20 ranks in Use Magic Device, and will probably have a belt of magnificnece +6, used wishes for +5 inherent bonuses to all his scores (40th level gets 13,600,000 gp, the wish scrolls are only 28,500 gp each), and might have a bunch of exotic ability bonuses as well. That means he might have a decent UMD check for using scrolls, staves, and wands. If that's the case, he can go one-for-one with the wizard magically, at least until his charges and scrolls run out. And the fighter has access to epic magic items - imagine a UMD fighter with a scroll of mordenkainen's disjunction an epic staff of necromancy, a few scrolls of quickened harm, a +6 keen greater wounding thundering greatsword. He's also likely to have a ring of universal energy immunity and a ring of spell turning. I'd side with the fighter, unless the wizard can get through the fighter's energy immunities and lob a bunch of metamagicked scorching rays (I saw a build that did something like 60,000hp damage in a single round thanks to time stop and metamagic feats). The problem with scorching ray is threefold: SR, energy immunity, and attack rolls. .......which is why you use Orb of Force, if you have some way to hit him (like while he's sleeping). :D If you're gonna figure a way to kill the fighter, any spell that falls under one or more of these qualifications is pretty much out of the question: Anything that allows SR Anything that can be reduced by elemental immunity Anything that allows a fort save to negate Anything that allows a reflex save to negate (unless you have a way to 'spam' it) Anything that allows a will save to negate (unless you have a way to 'spam' it) Anything that requires an attack roll
solbergb 02-16-07, 04:43 PM	As for Gate, I don't think it would actually work. . Yeah. Since a L40 fighter can kill anything you can gate in, with enough ranged attacks left over to also kill the wizard. "Gate I win" doesn't work when Balors are the equivalent of kobolds.
solbergb 02-16-07, 04:45 PM	.......which is why you use Orb of Force, if you have some way to hit him (like while he's sleeping). :D It would have to be, since it is so useful to be able to reflect ways and L40 fighters have so many epic feats that it seems like a nobrainer to get deflect anything and extraordinary deflection and infinite deflection. Maybe not. But I don't think most epic fighters would even notice the damage from an orb of force. They take 35 hitpoints from a level appropriate monster using harsh language nearby.
StruckingFuggle 02-16-07, 04:53 PM	Yeah. Since a L40 fighter can kill anything you can gate in, with enough ranged attacks left over to also kill the wizard. "Gate I win" doesn't work when Balors are the equivalent of kobolds. Which is why you don't port in a Balor (or a 20 Demon / 20 Levels of Gish Paragon Half-Dragon Balor with an Extrodinarily Aimed Antimagic Field and a second one contingent if you disjoin the first, who has treasure that's worth epic sums of money - not as much as the fighter, but plenty enough to swath himself in perhaps comberable immunities and abilities ....), you make use of this ... here. I'll bold it for you. The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below). If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time. A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell. The service, naturally, is their suicide. It would have to be, since it is so useful to be able to reflect ways and L40 fighters have so many epic feats that it seems like a nobrainer to get deflect anything and extraordinary deflection and infinite deflection. Maybe not. But I don't think most epic fighters would even notice the damage from an orb of force. They take 35 hitpoints from a level appropriate monster using harsh language nearby. Reflect it how? It's not a ray. It can be heightened to a high enough level to get past spell turning. It doesn't offer spell resistance or a save. And yes - 35 damage they might not notice, but 2,000 damage will be more than enough. I wouldn't be surprised if a particular sort of wizard, say, an incantatrix with Arcane Thesis (Orb of Force), could easily pump out enough orbs of force to deal enough HP damage to kill a 40-Hit-Die anything. Alternatively, going back to Gate, if they could find a way to Gate in a Half-Fiend or Half-Celestial something that could get its level at or above 45, say by giving them a level or more of cleric spellcasting one way or another (why hello there, Mr Solar) and give them a bead of force ... they could Blasphemy / Dictum / Word of Chaos the guy with a damn fine chance of overcoming his SR (if not, Gate Cascade time!), and if not kill him outright, paralyize him (hence the golden Caster Level 45, and I think 1d20+45 will beat your fighter's epic SR...........), and then the summoned / cascaded beasties repeatedly CDG him. It's doable. I'm sure it's doable, though it requires, of course, abusing the forces arcane while cranking out perfectly legal cheese. Heh. Hell. Gate in a Solar. Give it a Bead of Karma. Have it boost it's caster level to 24, and order it to gate in a 48th level something epic with the capacity to cast a Holy Word-equivilent spell for Law or Chaos that would paralyize the Fighter, Gate the Fighter to you with the Beastie ready to Speak, and watch the fighter get paralyzed and CDG'd by an array of Gate-Cascaded Paragon Titans or Paragon Solars... Edit: I think it could be said this way. "If they end up in an arena situation, anyone with Level 40 wealth, even a commoner, will totally hose a 17th level anything. If a 40th-level anything, including a fighter, sets their mind on swatting a 17th level anything, they'll do it. But if a 17th-Wizard, for some reason or another, gets it into his mind to slay a 40th level Fighter, he could possibly pull it off." Edit edit: Not a Level 17-Wizard. Try, "anyone who can cast Planeshift and Gate, be they Wizard, Cleric, or Rogue or Bard with a good +UMD competence item." ... because like how the Fighter wins not because he's a Fighter but because of his Gear, the caster wins not because they're a caster, but because of Gate (and maybe Planeshift).
Nezkrul 02-17-07, 01:19 AM	fighter wins every time, why continue this pointless arguement; if you think otherwise you've never played epic.
StruckingFuggle 02-17-07, 02:13 AM	fighter wins every time, why continue this pointless arguement; if you think otherwise you've never played epic. Okay then. How does this fighter counter either a multiple-hundred HD (climax of ever-doubling Gate Cascade) outsider or being summoned to another plane and commanded to accept death (due to being commanded by Gate)?
pheonixfrostmourn 02-17-07, 02:39 AM	Scenario 3: Wizard: Wins initiative, casts on fighter. Fails against SR 40 provided by fighter's mantle Fighter: Plays solitaire ...with a deck of many things!!!
StruckingFuggle 02-17-07, 02:40 AM	Though any wizard played intelligently wouldn't be using spells that would work with SR... And if we assume the fighter bought items intelligently, we must also assume that the wizard is played intelligently.
Mr. Master 02-17-07, 03:56 AM	A fighter could have one Sorceror level and use an antimagic field scroll. Without magic,a wizard is useless,while the fighter could chop him to pieces.He doesn't need his powerful sword,he just needs to grab him and slowly strangle him.
StruckingFuggle 02-17-07, 04:26 AM	A fighter could have one Sorceror level and use an antimagic field scroll. Without magic,a wizard is useless,while the fighter could chop him to pieces.He doesn't need his powerful sword,he just needs to grab him and slowly strangle him. Assuming that's to the Summon-Command Gate trick, that's fine ... as long as he has it up ALL. THE. TIME. At which point all his beautifully epic gear is useless, too, and he's just a 40d10, 40 BAB chunk of meat with masterwork weapons and armor. I'll point out that Gate allows you to summon an individual creature with HD = 2x Your Caster Level. So. You summon something with 34 Hit Dice and the ability to cast Gate, they summon something with 68 HD and the ability to cast gate, who summons something with 136 HD and the ability to cast gate, who summons something with 272 Hit Dice, more templates than you can shake a fist at, and equipped treasure worthy of a 272-Hit-Die beastie - and have order your summon to order their summon, on down the line, to relinquish control upwards until you have control of this mythical beastie. Let's just call him Bob The Paragon Kobold Commoner. The Fighter could cream the Wizard ... but what is Bob going to to The Fighter? :) I mean, the fighter is nice and all, and if he takes the initative and hunts down and bullies these wizards, or in an arena battle, he probably wins. But if the Wizard decides to kill him first .... I don't think he can beat Gate. Be it a Gate Cascade or a Summon And Die, it's just pain.
Mr. Master 02-17-07, 04:52 AM	I don't remember well the spell's description in the 3.0 PCM,but I think that also the creatures conjured with Gate can be send back to home.Not to mention the fact that they couldn't use their Gate,because of the antimagic field. Not to mention the fact that the wizard wouldn't care much about the fighter's death,since he would be the first to die: W: "Ah ah,you poor fighter gonna die against my monsters" F: "OK,but you go first" I think this is a draw,not a victory for the wizard. PS:I recognize that all this stuff could happen because of that single Sor level,which in the end means that spell casters have more than a chance to win against sword users,but you fight fire with fire,at least until GD will create a system not so magic abused. PS2: there's a comic,I think it's name is Warlands,where it's mentioned a material like steel that negates magic.I think that such a material could be very useful in this game.At least until magic's power will be lowered.
Witch 02-17-07, 07:00 AM	Okay then. How does this fighter counter either a multiple-hundred HD (climax of ever-doubling Gate Cascade) outsider or being summoned to another plane and commanded to accept death (due to being commanded by Gate)? How on earth are you ever-doubling gate? And are you still as bullheaded to believe being commanded by Gate will work? Because it will not. He's a unique individual, which is stated not to work explicitly.
The_sleeper1 02-17-07, 11:32 AM	How on earth are you ever-doubling gate? And are you still as bullheaded to believe being commanded by Gate will work? Because it will not. He's a unique individual, which is stated not to work explicitly. Not totaly correct, it sais that a unique creature can step through the gate if he wants and is NOT controled, so the fighter could step through the gate, kill the low level creature, you know the low level one the wizard gated and then stand back and watch as the other creatures rip the wizard a new one for haveing the gaul to gate them. Further more Creature under wizards control is summoned then he summons one before the creature tells him hey the wizard is our friend dont eat him the wizzard could be eatten, every time there is a summons that could happen. Seriously your trying to use some serious cheese to win it, its not winable by the wizard and your cheesey trolling responses are showing that.
StruckingFuggle 02-17-07, 11:54 AM	How on earth are you ever-doubling gate? And are you still as bullheaded to believe being commanded by Gate will work? Because it will not. He's a unique individual, which is stated not to work explicitly. Ever doubling it? By summoning a single creature (HD = Up to 2x Caster Level) capable of casting gate ... and having them summoning something else capable of casting Gate. As I said. It's a particular sort of Gate Cascade. Also, I'll invite you to go back where I quoted gate and highlighted several parts. Its quite clear that any particular person or character is not a "unique individual".
malignor 02-17-07, 02:21 PM	SRD: "Gate" Calling Creatures The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). SRD: "Calling" A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. Translation - The fighter must have the extraplanar subtype. - You must be on a different plane to call the fighter. = = = = = = = = As for Gate doubling, that's pretty DM fiat. Furthermore, what knowledge - planar check lets you know what creatures can open Gate spells?
StruckingFuggle 02-17-07, 03:29 PM	Yes, that's why you go to a plane other than the one he's on to summon him. As for Gate doubling, that's pretty DM fiat. How is it DM Fiat? And fine. Even if you can't double it, how many Solars and Titans does it take to kill a Level 40?
Silverthumb128 02-17-07, 03:52 PM	And fine. Even if you can't double it, how many Solars and Titans does it take to kill a Level 40? Well, looking at the Solar's entry in the MM, it shouldn't be difficult at all for a 40th level Fighter to get 45+ AC, making the Solar's highest to-hit attack(Dancing Greatsword) 50% miss. The Slaying Arrows won't really do enough, given that the DC is Fort 20. You could just pick up Steadfast Determination and avoid the natural 1 failed save, and never have to worry about Slaying Arrows, ever. Likewise, it shouldn't be difficult for the 40th level Fighter to have enough bonuses to-hit to easily pierce Solar's 35 AC. With the right build(well, that's kinda moot, as by 40th level, Fighter could easily have almost every feat he'd need), he probably could smash through Solar's 209 HP or come close in a single round. Titans aren't really that much different, they just use higher numbers that still shouldn't be too much of an issue for Fighter 40. How high of a caster level can a 17th level Wizard get? I'm sure there's something I'm missing if I'm to assume that a 17th level Wizard is able to control any more than 5 Solars in a day. 5 Solars won't really be enough to stop an Epic Fighter. I'm not even sure 5 Titans could do it.
The_sleeper1 02-17-07, 03:53 PM	Yes, that's why you go to a plane other than the one he's on to summon him. How is it DM Fiat? And fine. Even if you can't double it, how many Solars and Titans does it take to kill a Level 40? SDR: If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane. Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you. For starters going and dieing to a good creature would defanitly be a longer service and getting the creature to gate in creatures that it would in turn gate in more would be longer and no solar is going to want to gate in some nasty nasty EVIL/undead creature hence it would ask for a reasonable reward one comensurate with the chalange, since it is an epic chalange the value would be epic and beyond the reach of the wizard. Let alone the fact that theres a huge differance between actualy makeing the creature up and summoning it and that when your talking about a super powerful creature with a dozzen templates on it it would then likely be considered unique and there fore immune.
Dragoloth 02-17-07, 04:14 PM	The wizard can't gate the fighter anywhere. The wizard(17th level) can only gate an individual with twice his hd and 34 does not equal 40. I could be wrong but I believe I read somewhere that many creatures and specificaly a solar can't cast gate until the round after he returns. It doesn't matter what people backing the fighter say, some people just hate fighters and will insult any who play one. People saying my wizard, cleric, druid, and so on is more powerful than your fighter is so old and annoying. I personally like fighters and will continue playing one. D&D is a group game where one classes strengths should accent anothers weakness. If both players are competant and don't use loopholes to bend the rules the fighter wins hands down. If you want to gripe his equipment won not the fighter, play a game with no magical equipment because his equipment is part of D&D.
Yokomohoyo 02-19-07, 04:46 AM	Why is everyone saying that wish cant be used to win a fight? Isnt WISH mainly used in fights versus a Tarrasque? So if it can be used to wish a Tarrasque to stay dead and or to the negative energy plain then why wouldn't it work for a fighter? Heck if all the poop hits the fan and I being the wizard get into a fight with a fighter level 40. All I would do is cast time stop and get next to the fighter, drop my portable hole on the ground and toss my bag of holding into it and cast sudden quicken gate to get out before the fun begins ahahahahahahaha
Witch 02-19-07, 10:03 AM	Why is everyone saying that wish cant be used to win a fight? Isnt WISH mainly used in fights versus a Tarrasque? So if it can be used to wish a Tarrasque to stay dead and or to the negative energy plain then why wouldn't it work for a fighter? Not and/or. Wish keeps a tarrasque that was beating into negative hit points dead. That's it. Regarding your Gate loop: you need to know a creature capable of casting Gate. Regarding your Gate loop #2: no, a Fighter 40 is a unique being. The fact that the spell is somewhat unclear doesn't nullify that. The designers aren't morons.
solbergb 02-20-07, 01:18 AM	Re: orb of force reflection. Exceptional Deflection: The character can deflect any ranged attacks (including spells that require ranged touch attacks) as if they were arrows. and Reflect Arrows: when the character deflects an arrow or other ranged attack, the attack is reflected back upon the attacker at the character's ranged attack bonus. usually also with Infiinite Deflection The character can perform any number of deflections per round, as the deflect arrows feat. You will find all of these under "Epic Feats", in the SRD. I can assure you that a 40th level fighter would be hard pressed to NOT have these feats, as they get 16 epic feats by L40, and there aren't actually all that many really good epic feats. But this tree is worth it. Combine it with the Great Reflection shield enhancement that automatically reflects any targeted spell and a ring of evasion, and you're pretty solidly immune to ranged spellcasting of any kind. Even if he can't put the feats together, exceptional deflection and infinite deflection can also be just bought as shield enhancements. (also in SRD) I think Great Reflection is a better buy when you have that many feats though. A L40 fighter really isn't likely to be inconvenienced by anything that can come through a gate spell. But he'll do the same thing he's done since he was level 2. Shoot the wizard doing the summoning first, then deal with the summoned critters. They're nothing more than a nuisance to him. And yeah, the idea of using gate to summon the fighter is stupid. Cascading gates is also just a really bad idea. The caster controls the gated creature...so if you tell a gated critter to gate something else in, that second guy is NOT under the wiz control, but instead under the control of the individual the wizard is coercing to do a suicidal run on a L40 fighter... This is not going to end well for the wizard.
solbergb 02-20-07, 01:31 AM	Heck if all the poop hits the fan and I being the wizard get into a fight with a fighter level 40. All I would do is cast time stop and get next to the fighter, drop my portable hole on the ground and toss my bag of holding into it and cast sudden quicken gate to get out before the fun begins ahahahahahahaha And then the fighter, who is merely shunted to another plane, shrugs and plane shifts back. Or didn't you think a L40 guy wouldn't have items for that? He's been on planar adventures since level 10. He's had helm of teleport for 20 levels now for intra-planar transport, he'll have a well of many worlds or a amulet of the planes or something for inter-planar transports. As a "oh crap" tactic if being picked on by such a fighter, then yeah, not too bad. you're out 25k gold, and you bought yourself time to escape. Or you could save yourself the 25k gold and just teleport away (or time stop, run outside the dimensional lock and teleport away).