Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koda77 01-09-08, 02:51 PM	does this exist anywhere i know there are 19-20 x4 i just cant find 18-20 x3
Tema69 01-09-08, 02:54 PM	Is there a 19-20/x4??? ...where?
Koda77 01-09-08, 02:58 PM	minatour hammer mm4 page 151 exotic weapon 2d6 damage 19-20 x4 30 lbs +2 to sunder attempts
Tema69 01-09-08, 03:04 PM	New weapons in a Monster's Manual? ...allright. ;) No, I haven't heard of an 18-20 / x3 weapon, but I'd sure like to know if there's one such weapon.
Tilakai 01-09-08, 03:05 PM	And is most widely belived to be an error.
Akharu 01-09-08, 03:05 PM	minatour hammer mm4 page 151 exotic weapon 2d6 damage 19-20 x4 30 lbs +2 to sunder attempts ...and a misprint...so hopefully your dm won't look at the actual monster entry it comes from.
Belkar 01-09-08, 04:01 PM	The minotaur hammer is a misprint. He's right... compare it to the actual minotaur entry stat block that has the right figures...lol... As I know, the only way to get a 19-20/x4 is with Improved Critical on a Scythe or Pick - or a Keen weapon of the same. Otherwise... it'd be pretty broken. That's why 18-20/x3 also doesn't exist. It would destroy game balance.
Sinfire Titan 01-09-08, 04:10 PM	The minotaur hammer is a misprint. He's right... compare it to the actual minotaur entry stat block that has the right figures...lol... As I know, the only way to get a 19-20/x4 is with Improved Critical on a Scythe or Pick - or a Keen weapon of the same. Otherwise... it'd be pretty broken. That's why 18-20/x3 also doesn't exist. It would destroy game balance. Unless it dealt 1d3 points of damage and was a Light Exotic Piercing weapon. in which case, that is fully balanced.
Belkar 01-09-08, 04:13 PM	Unless it dealt 1d3 points of damage and was a Light Exotic Piercing weapon. in which case, that is fully balanced. Actually, yes. It's exotic. And light... which means no 2-handed STR bonus, and you can't power attack with it.
Necromas 01-09-08, 04:14 PM	19-20/x3 is as strong as it gets without being broken. For comparison... 20/x2 = 1 point, since there's a 1 in 20 chance of dealing (well, threatening) +100% damage 20/x3 = 2 points 20/x4 = 3 points 19-20/x2 = 2 points 18-20/x2 = 3 points 19-20/x3 = 4 points 19-20/x4 = 6 points, a 2 in 20 chance of threatening +300% damage 18-20/x3 = 6 points, a 3 in 20 chance of threatening +200% damage
Dog_O_War 01-09-08, 04:20 PM	Crossbow. Coupled with 10 levels of deepwood sniper.
Fenrir_Greyback 01-09-08, 04:21 PM	I believe it can be done, but it takes a feat or two. I don't remember where I read it, but I saw a feat that extended the critical multiplier. Use that on a rapier, then make it keen. now you've got a 15-20 x3 modifier. Of course, it only uses a d6 hit dice. If you wanted to be really mean, you could do a keen bastard sword with this feat. I'll try to find it and post it here in the next few days.
Dog_O_War 01-09-08, 04:37 PM	I believe it can be done, but it takes a feat or two. I don't remember where I read it, but I saw a feat that extended the critical multiplier. Use that on a rapier, then make it keen. now you've got a 15-20 x3 modifier. Of course, it only uses a d6 hit dice. If you wanted to be really mean, you could do a keen bastard sword with this feat. I'll try to find it and post it here in the next few days. Or you could use the 3.0 bladed guantlet, before errata. 9-20/x2 ftw.
Auorix 01-09-08, 07:06 PM	19-20/x3 is as strong as it gets without being broken. Which weapon is that? Khopesh errata or something? Non ranged?
sblaxman 01-09-08, 07:35 PM	Yes, there is such a weapon, it's in videogames, go play them
VulcanStormwrath 01-09-08, 07:44 PM	Goliath Greathammer (2d6/x4 bludgeoning) from Races of Stone instead. 30lb sledgehammer with bonuses to sunder. Is that a misprint too????
Tema69 01-09-08, 08:28 PM	Goliath Greathammer (2d6/x4 bludgeoning) from Races of Stone instead. 30lb sledgehammer with bonuses to sunder. Is that a misprint too???? Is it 19-20/x4 or 20/x4. In the latter case, no, it's probably not a misprint.
BugHunter 01-09-08, 09:21 PM	Is it 19-20/x4 or 20/x4. In the latter case, no, it's probably not a misprint. For the large greathammer it is 3d6 20/x4.
VulcanStormwrath 01-09-08, 09:37 PM	For the large greathammer it is 3d6 20/x4. So either Impact or Imp. Crit makes this a killing machine. Add Mighty Wallop (Duration 1 hr/level) to be really nasty.
dman11235 01-10-08, 12:24 AM	Greater mighty whallop. For even more pain. Oooh! And master thrower (taking brutal and power throw, and making it a throwing goliath great hammer) taking the deadly precision trick. Now it's a 8d6 19-20x5 weapon! All it takes is CL 16 and five levels of master thrower for free imp. crit.
Xart 01-10-08, 12:41 AM	I believe it can be done, but it takes a feat or two. I don't remember where I read it, but I saw a feat that extended the critical multiplier. Use that on a rapier, then make it keen. now you've got a 15-20 x3 modifier. Of course, it only uses a d6 hit dice. If you wanted to be really mean, you could do a keen bastard sword with this feat. I'll try to find it and post it here in the next few days. Elite weapon mastery in Book of feats Makes crit mod from x2 to x3 etc.
Fenrir_Greyback 01-10-08, 08:07 AM	Where can I find this book? I don't actually have it.
Tyler Do'Urden 01-10-08, 08:53 AM	does this exist anywhere i know there are 19-20 x4 i just cant find 18-20 x3 The tarrasque's bite is 18-20/x3.
Belkar 01-10-08, 09:04 AM	The tarrasque's bite is 18-20/x3. lol... it's THE TARRASQUE...lol... It can also deflect magic missiles off it's hide, heal 40 points of damage per round, and is immune to any kind of lethal damage. And people claim it shouldn't be a CR20... *tsk* *tsk* :nonono: ;)
BugHunter 01-10-08, 09:07 AM	Where can I find this book? I don't actually have it. The book of feats was printed by AEG so you would need to try amazon.com or used book stores.
NoldorForce 01-10-08, 09:12 AM	And people claim it shouldn't be a CR20... *tsk* *tsk* :nonono: ;)The problem is that it can't fly or use ranged attacks.
WackyOne 01-10-08, 09:18 AM	Actually, yes. It's exotic. And light... which means no 2-handed STR bonus, and you can't power attack with it. There are other ways to get "crit-multiplyable" damage. Off the top of me head, the swashbuckler gets int to damage, and there's a feat to get dex in too, in the tome of battle.
dman11235 01-10-08, 10:12 AM	Yes, yes, there are many debates on it over in the monster forum. Besides, I play tested it to get a feel (core only wizard, fighter, rogue, cleric all generic) and it came out at a strong CR 20 because it wouldn't die. Any actual party would own it though because it is dumb and has no magic. That is actually a really good idea WackyOne. Now my unbodied swashy is even better and more lethal!
Belkar 01-10-08, 11:03 AM	There are other ways to get "crit-multiplyable" damage. Off the top of me head, the swashbuckler gets int to damage, and there's a feat to get dex in too, in the tome of battle. There are very few for melee weapons, without "magic" weapons, actually. (Which is why you don't ever see ranged weapons with that level of crit potential.) Just through class features and feats... A swashbucker or duelist's Int bonus is about it... So I have to pump a non-standard fighter ability to get it? And these are features of sub-par classes, at best. As for ToB... good grief, it's ToB!! I could make a swordsage with a sharpened drinking straw who could slaughter squadrons of monsters at 3rd level! The problem is that it can't fly or use ranged attacks. This always bugged the heck out of me. There's rocks and turf just laying around... isn't there? Doesn't Big T have a STR of 45? lol... As a DM, I alwasy replace 5 of his useless Toughness feats with "more suitable" ones... such as Brutal Throw. :D When you're using your STR to hurl boulders and chunks of turf at people, it doesn't matter if it's an "improvised" weapon or if you suffer range increment penalties. You have a STR of 45. :D Never understood that...
dman11235 01-10-08, 11:09 AM	I thin we have concluded that the weapon the OP is looking for doesn't exist. Or does with various class features getting it up to that point, but now way of furthering it. Int 3. Int 3. Say it with me now: Int 3. It will throw a tree at someone eventually, but it is really dumb. It might just ignore it and go on rampaging.
zook1shoe666 01-10-08, 11:21 AM	Talenta Sharrash (1d10, 19/x4) Eberron Mercurial Greatsword (2d8, 19/x4) AE Mercurial Longsword (2d6, 19/x4) AE Flutter Blade (1d4, 19/x3) FR:Under
Bloodsoul 01-10-08, 11:32 AM	The Harrowheart rapier from BoVD is an 18-20/x3, but only against good creatures.
deathbane 01-10-08, 01:06 PM	lol... it's THE TARRASQUE...lol... It can also deflect magic missiles off it's hide, heal 40 points of damage per round, and is immune to any kind of lethal damage. And people claim it shouldn't be a CR20... *tsk* *tsk* :nonono: ;) It really is not that hard to beat(if you know you will be fighting one) due to it's lack of a ranged attack. There are other threads that cover how to handle one.
NoldorForce 01-10-08, 01:34 PM	Talenta Sharrash (1d10, 19/x4) Eberron Mercurial Greatsword (2d8, 19/x4) AE Mercurial Longsword (2d6, 19/x4) AE Flutter Blade (1d4, 19/x3) FR:UnderThe Sharrash was errata'd to 19-20/x2. The other three weapons are in that grey area of "3.25", right around the edition change, and are generally considered suspect. (3.0 allowed Keen and Improved Critical to stack, which was why such weapons may have been fine then. 3.5 doesn't allow them to stack; thus weapons designed for a system where they did may not be appropriate.)
zook1shoe666 01-10-08, 01:44 PM	The Sharrash was errata'd to 19-20/x2. The other three weapons are in that grey area of "3.25", right around the edition change, and are generally considered suspect. (3.0 allowed Keen and Improved Critical to stack, which was why such weapons may have been fine then. 3.5 doesn't allow them to stack; thus weapons designed for a system where they did may not be appropriate.) completely understandable ;)
Splurch1 01-10-08, 02:25 PM	The Goliath Greathammer (2d6/x4 bludgeoning) is probably the nastiest weapon I've ever had with a character (since 2nd edition). I got one off a giant and it was the (giant size) 3d6 x 4 one with Thundering + 3. I had a 1/2 Giant character that had a 26 str or something like that and I got improved crit with it. So I was doing 3d6 + 11 (19 - 20 crit) x 4 that did I think on a 4x weapon is 3 die 6 extra damage. Which when a party member double crossed us and tried to murder our scout he got nicked a couple of time till I hit with a crit and that was all she wrote!
Brehon 01-10-08, 03:00 PM	The jambiya. It's from one of the Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, but I can't remember which right now. It costs 4 gp, deals 1d3, 18-20/x3 and is a martial, light, slashing weapon.
Auorix 01-10-08, 03:50 PM	So no one knows of a melee 19-20/x3 weapon then? If this was available would it be the best weapon statistically?
Brehon 01-10-08, 03:56 PM	So no one knows of a melee 19-20/x3 weapon then? If this was available would it be the best weapon statistically? Flutter Blade (Exotic, One-Handed, Piercing or Slashing) Dmg = 1d4 Crit:19-20/x3 Orc Shotput (Exotic, Ranged, Bludgeoning) Dmg = 2d6 Crit: 19-20/x3, Range = 10 ft.
Thaumaturgist 01-10-08, 04:20 PM	The jambiya is from Races of faerun, and it's x2.
rjsilverthorn 01-10-08, 04:21 PM	Mercurial Greatsword (2d8, 19/x4) AE Mercurial Longsword (2d6, 19/x4) AE I checked my copy of AE and both of those are listed as x4, not 19-20 x4.
kalstrand 01-10-08, 06:56 PM	Flutter Blade (Exotic, One-Handed, Piercing or Slashing) Dmg = 1d4 Crit:19-20/x3 Orc Shotput (Exotic, Ranged, Bludgeoning) Dmg = 2d6 Crit: 19-20/x3, Range = 10 ft. I believe the Shotput was erratad also.
zook1shoe666 01-10-08, 09:50 PM	I checked my copy of AE and both of those are listed as x4, not 19-20 x4. maybe those are still from the Sword and Fist... oh well :-p
Jere_RB 01-11-08, 10:00 AM	Actually, my DM just introduced something like this for one of our newer, more immature players. Light weapon, 10 ft. reach, can hit adjacent as per spiked chain, d6 dmg, 18-20/x3 crit, slashing. Called them, "Kratos Blades," after the guy from God of War. I think she needs to quit drinking the cool-aid.
Orenmir 01-11-08, 10:46 AM	Actually, my DM just introduced something like this for one of our newer, more immature players. Light weapon, 10 ft. reach, can hit adjacent as per spiked chain, d6 dmg, 18-20/x3 crit, slashing. Called them, "Kratos Blades," after the guy from God of War. I think she needs to quit drinking the cool-aid. What does your DM impose to make this weapon balanced? Two feats to use? XWP and an AC penalty?
Jere_RB 01-11-08, 10:53 AM	What does your DM impose to make this weapon balanced? Two feats to use? XWP and an AC penalty? EWP. That's it. Like I said. Cool-aid.
Prime32 01-11-08, 10:53 AM	None of the weapons are supposed to be "better" than any others - start with an existing weapon, and add or subtract one point for each point of average damage, minor bonus, size change (light/one-handed/two-handed), orcxategory change (simple/martial/exotic) A better guide can be found here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=694416
Orenmir 01-11-08, 02:24 PM	None of the weapons are supposed to be "better" than any others I would disagree. Most exotic weapons are better than others. That's why you need XWP or play an exotic race to use them. Mercurial swords and spiked chain are a great examples.
Orenmir 01-11-08, 02:38 PM	A better guide can be found here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=694416 18-20/x3 would probably fall at 20%, according to those guilelines. You could make this balanced: 2-handed 1d8 18-20/x3 ??? That doesn't seem balanced to me. Here is Jere's Kratos Blades: Light: -25 1d6: 15 18-20/x3: 20 Reach: 5 Inclusive Reach: 5 XWP Required: -5 Total: 15 What is the general consensus about that weapon balance system? Is it really...well...balanced?
Prime32 01-11-08, 02:51 PM	I would disagree. Most exotic weapons are better than others. That's why you need XWP or play an exotic race to use them. Mercurial swords and spiked chain are a great examples. They do more damage, but you're wasting a feat, so that doesn't make them any better (Weapon Focus grants twice the bonus of XWP) 18-20/x3 would probably fall at 20%, according to those guilelines.Wrong.You'll notice that there is no 17-20 range nor x5 multiplier in this system. That's because those numbers have no place being on a weapon. You'll also notice that there are no weapons in any book with those stats. That's because those numbers have no place being on a weapon. Magic, Feats, or Class Features might elevate a weapon to those levels... but a weapon balancing system shouldn't consider such factors. [...] It might be worth noting, though, that when one gets outrageous about combinations, the numbers get fudged. [A 18-20/x3 weapon, though it grants a 30% damage increase, only imposes a 25% increase to cost, for example] 18-20/x3 should not be allowed. Even the DMG says 19-20/x3 is way overpowered, equivalent to 17-20/x2 or 20/x5.
Prime32 01-11-08, 02:52 PM	18-20/x3 would probably fall at 20%, according to those guilelines. You could make this balanced: 2-handed 1d8 18-20/x3 ??? That doesn't seem balanced to me. Here is Jere's Kratos Blades: Light: -25 1d6: 15 18-20/x3: 20 Reach: 5 Inclusive Reach: 5 XWP Required: -5 Total: 15 What is the general consensus about that weapon balance system? Is it really...well...balanced? The idea is to end up with zero, not 15.
Orenmir 01-11-08, 04:06 PM	18-20/x3 should not be allowed. Even the DMG says 19-20/x3 is way overpowered, equivalent to 17-20/x2 or 20/x5. I'll agree with that. I just can't seem to justify an exotic, 2-handed, 2d8, 20/x2, reach (inclusive) weapon as being balanced -- which this system claims it is (104%).
Prime32 01-11-08, 05:00 PM	Without the inclusive part it's 99% - that seems a balanced weapon to me.
Koda77 01-12-08, 01:48 AM	well, i guess its time for me to post again sorry for my absence, but going through the processes of switching to my new comp. As for the weapon you would need to now our campaigns, very high powered due to the people we play with and i told the dm of my weapon and he did not blink an eye, i am just a run of the mill player gaming with two of the exceptional co boarders. anyway thanks for all your help unfortunately there is no such weapon in creation yet
kalstrand 01-12-08, 01:13 PM	I am running the Red Hand of Doom adventure and the party just hit the Greenspawn last night. The Greenspawn have an 18-20 X3 crit and I can tell you that it was very nasty.
Mindolin 01-12-08, 02:17 PM	Actually, the Blades of Kratos, or the Anarch Razors, whichever you want to call them, are not the ideas of a demented DM, they were in an issue of Dragon Magazine, and were balanced by a permanant loss of 1 point of Strength and either Charisma or Constitution, I forget which.
Prime32 01-12-08, 02:27 PM	And I'm pretty sure they were 19-20/x2.
Washunka 01-29-08, 10:35 AM	ghehe, don't forget the ninja-to from OA which had a critrange from 19-29/x2!! No biggie you think? Try Improved Critical now! ;) 9-29/x2 :cool: p.s. I know it was a misprint... just thought it was funny:P
Frozen Yakman 01-29-08, 11:35 AM	18-20 x3 could probably be balanced if the weapon cost 5000gp and an additional 3000gp to masterwork.
narack 01-29-08, 12:51 PM	The minotaur hammer is a misprint. He's right... compare it to the actual minotaur entry stat block that has the right figures...lol... As I know, the only way to get a 19-20/x4 is with Improved Critical on a Scythe or Pick - or a Keen weapon of the same. Otherwise... it'd be pretty broken. That's why 18-20/x3 also doesn't exist. It would destroy game balance. No errata has been release so why there would be an error.
lpguy26 01-30-08, 12:25 AM	There IS in fact a way to make a 18-20 / x3 weapon and its possible using the AEG Mercenaries Book. Any weapon that does slashing damage can be altered this way and it only costs a bit of extra gold. By making a weapon out of "laminated steel", it gains +1 to its damage, 5 to its hardness, and adds 1 to its natural critical multiplier. Altering a weapon in this manner adds 900gp to it's base price. Also, any weapon that deals slashing damage can be made "Serrated" as well. By making a weapon serrated its natural threat range is increased by 1. Altering a weapon in this manner adds 300gp to it's base price. Special properties such as these can also be combined into 1 weapon for a higher cost. Lets say we want to make a Laminated Steel, Serrated, Masterwork Longsword. The weapons cost would be increased by Masterwork (300gp), Laminated Steel (900gp), and Serrated (300gp) times 3(the number of special properties). The result would be a Masterwork Longsword with a hardness of 15, 1d8+1 damage, 18-20 critical threat range, and a critical multiplier of x3 for the price of 4,545gp. This information can be found on pages 91-92 of the AEG Mercenaries Supplement Book.
Behaigo 01-30-08, 03:55 AM	AEGs Mercenaries book is one of the first DnD books I ever got. It is also probably the most broken book I've ever come across. With 2 feats you can get your sneak attack to deal d10s instead of d6s. At level 10 every single attack a Skirmisher makes is a critical threat. Everything that book spews out is utterly broken. Needless to say, I use it whenever I am able :D
Cifer 01-30-08, 08:23 AM	18-20 x3 could probably be balanced if the weapon cost 5000gp and an additional 3000gp to masterwork. No, for the simple reason that whatever static price you use becomes a pittance at higher levels. What are 8000 gp when you've got something above 200k available? Yet impressive crit ratings never lose their appeal because they don't add a static bonus but multiply the damage.
Prime32 01-30-08, 12:14 PM	Why is this thread still going? :confused:
Orenmir 01-30-08, 02:01 PM	Why is this thread still going? :confused: Because the prospect of an 18-20/x3 weapon is so enticing, people keep trying to justify its existence; when, in fact, it has no business being in any 3.5 game.
RobbyPants 01-31-08, 08:10 AM	19-20/x3 is as strong as it gets without being broken. If you're talking base weapon stats (no Keen or Improved Critical), then it's still more powerful than anything standard. 19-20/x3 is the same as either 17-20/x2 or 20/x5.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-31-08, 11:43 AM	18-20/x3 would probably fall at 20%, according to those guilelines. You could make this balanced: 2-handed 1d8 18-20/x3 ??? That doesn't seem balanced to me. Here is Jere's Kratos Blades: Light: -25 1d6: 15 18-20/x3: 20 Reach: 5 Inclusive Reach: 5 XWP Required: -5 Total: 15 What is the general consensus about that weapon balance system? Is it really...well...balanced? Well as a light exotic weapon that's understandable then. Only 1x str and no power attack, so not really gonna be doing any crazy damage...
Edymnion 01-31-08, 07:54 PM	Because the prospect of an 18-20/x3 weapon is so enticing, people keep trying to justify its existence; when, in fact, it has no business being in any 3.5 game.And lets use math to prove it! When you roll the dice, a 1 always misses, a 20 always hits, and anything in between is a maybe. For the sake of this discussion, we are going to assume that the target has an AC of 2, and hence everything but a natural 1 hits. Yes, its not going to happen that way IRL, but it makes the math easier, and the damage ratios remain the same as long as the AC you need to hit stays the same. Also for the sake of making the math easier, lets assume a critical always confirms. The average roll for a die is calculated as all possible outcomes, divided by the number of outcomes. So, a d6's average roll is (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6, or 3.5. If you do the math, you quickly find that the average roll is always going to be .5(die type) + .5. So, lets take a base 1d6 x2 weapon. 1(0) + 18(3.5) + 1(7) = 70/20 = 3.5 damage. Thats 0 damage on a 1, normal damage on a 2 through 19, and double damage on a 20. Now, the reason the average damage overall is the same as the average roll for a d6 is because the auto miss and the auto double damage cancel each other out. That'll change with the next one. So, lets look at a 1d6/x3 now: 1(0) + 18(3.5) + 1(10.5) = 73.5/20 = 3.675 damage per swing. And a 1d6 19-20/x2 weapon: 1(0) + 17(3.5) + 2(7) = 73.5/20 = 3.675 damage per swing. As you can see, the average damage per swing is identical. If you increase the multiplier by one step, or the range by one step, its balanced with each other. Now, lets skip ahead a bit. 1d6 18/x3. Thats one increase in multiplier, and two increases in range. So, its the equivolant of either 3 increases in multiplier, or 3 increases in range, right? Lets find out. Since we already know that a x5 multiplier is going to have the same average damage as a 17-20/x2, I'll just do the x5 multiplier, since its easier. 1d6 x5: 1(0) + 18(3.5) + 1(17.5) = 80.5/20 = 4.025 damage per swing. 1d6 18-20/x3: 1(0) + 15(3.5) + 3(10.5) = 84/20 = 4.2 damage per swing. The 18-20/x3 is *SIGNIFICANTLY* more powerful than the straight up x5 or 17-20/x2. In fact, if we scale up, its actually the mathematical equivolant to a x6 or a 16-20x2 weapon! This applies across the board as well. Lets compare a x4 with a 19-20/x3: 1d6 x4: 1(0) + 18(3.5) + 1(14) = 77/20 = 3.85 damage per swing. 1d6 19-20/x3: 1(0) + 17(3.5) + 2(10.5) = 80.5/20 = 4.025 damage per swing. Which, if we look back up, is the same as a x5 weapon. So, to put this baby to bed, while it is possible to make a balanced weapon like this, you just have to remember that if you increase both the range and the multiplier, then it counts as 3 incriments, not just 2.
Bihlbo 02-01-08, 01:48 PM	Thanks Edimnion! When I read this: Because the prospect of an 18-20/x3 weapon is so enticing, people keep trying to justify its existence; when, in fact, it has no business being in any 3.5 game. My response was going to be "Prove it. Here's some math." But you did it for me! The math you presented is very much appreciated. But I don't see how that proves that a 18-20/x3 "should not be" allowed. Your example puts it at 4.2 damage per swing. A magical +1 light mace (or a nonmagical improved masterwork light mace, if you want to use a splat book or two) has an average damage of 4.5 per swing instead of 3.5. Is it the source of the improved average that makes the difference? Or is it just a matter of metrics?