Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Imsolost 02-10-07, 02:10 AM	Would a 19-20/x3 exotic 2-H weapon with 2d4 famage be too powerful? What if this weapon could also do slashing or piercing and could be used to make trip attempts? I was thinking of the weapon being something like a scythe but weighted differently with a more lethal blade. How much stronger is a 19-20/x3 than an 18-20/x2?
RavenCorvus 02-10-07, 02:17 AM	what kind of weapon is it exactly and size matters too
Novacat 02-10-07, 02:46 AM	In the following equations, we assume 20 hits, with one crit for each number within the weapon's threat range. x = weapon damage 20 (x2) = x21 20 (x3) = x22 20 (x4) = x23 19-20 (x2) = x22 19-20 (x3) = x24 18-20 (x2) = x23 With Improved Critical, the numbers adjust themselves as shown: 19-20 (x2) = x22 19-20 (x3) = x24 19-20 (x4) = x28 17-20 (x2) = x24 17-20 (x3) = x28 15-20 (x2) = x25 As you can see, in both cases the 19-20/x3 formula ends up significantly better than any other existing weapon. It's essentially a keen axe that can be further enhanced.
Neutronium_Dragon 02-10-07, 07:15 AM	You can increase the threat range or increase the multiplier. You never do both, since as noted above, it creates an abnormally strong synergy.
CelestialBarbarian 02-10-07, 07:21 AM	In the following equations, we assume 20 hits, with one crit for each number within the weapon's threat range. x = weapon damage 20 (x2) = x21 20 (x3) = x22 20 (x4) = x23 19-20 (x2) = x22 19-20 (x3) = x24 18-20 (x2) = x23 With Improved Critical, the numbers adjust themselves as shown: 19-20 (x2) = x22 19-20 (x3) = x24 19-20 (x4) = x28 17-20 (x2) = x24 17-20 (x3) = x28 15-20 (x2) = x25 As you can see, in both cases the 19-20/x3 formula ends up significantly better than any other existing weapon. It's essentially a keen axe that can be further enhanced. Can you explain this format you're using? What does it mean to be "x22?" Surely not what it literally says, which is "multipled by twenty-two." :confused: You can increase the threat range or increase the multiplier. You never do both, since as noted above, it creates an abnormally strong synergy. That's the general rule. At the start of 3.0 I broke the rule and made the katana 18-20/x3 and found that it was indeed too powerful, and reduced it to 18-20/x2 later in 3.0. Now here's an interesting question: can you do a weapon that's 19-20/x3? So far as I know, there isn't one in the game, but starting with 19-20/x2 you're increasingly only the multiplier, not the range too. But I think that maybe the general rule refers to the base 20/x2 that most natural and simple weapons have when it says increase either the multiplier or the modifier, but not both. The tarrasque violates that rule, as I recall, with a bite that has 18-20/x3. :)
ZaPPZion 02-10-07, 07:28 AM	this guy meant it like this: if you hit someone 20 times, then your damage is 22x the damage you do in 1 hit. so x28 means like 8 times more than without crits
Nom 02-10-07, 07:30 AM	Would a 19-20/x3 exotic 2-H weapon with 2d4 famage be too powerful? What if this weapon could also do slashing or piercing and could be used to make trip attempts? I was thinking of the weapon being something like a scythe but weighted differently with a more lethal blade. How much stronger is a 19-20/x3 than an 18-20/x2?20/x3 is a +5 crit multiplier. 20/x2 is +1, 19-20/x2 or 20/x3 are +2, 18-20/x2 or 20/x4 are +3, and so on. Generally, each +1 to crits pushes the weapon up one "category". For example, a light martial weapon with 1d6 19-20/x2 can increase to either 1d8 19-20/x2 or 1d6 18-20/x2 by making it one-handed, or by making it exotic. Let's use the scythe (martial two-handed 2d4 20/x4 pierce or slash trip) as our base. 20/x4 is equivalent to 18-20/x2 and is +3 crits. You're proposing increasing this to 19-20/x3 or +5. Assuming you were happy with this stylistically, you've pushed the weapon up two steps. The first goes to exotic. The second is beyond exotic. Note that the wielder could get a superior weapon by simply taking a halberd and the Improved Critical feat (thus 1d10 19-20/x3). Of course, that requires a +8 BAB and won't allow IC to double the threat range again.
Merestil Haye 02-10-07, 07:44 AM	Novacat is trying to show how the various crit range combinations increase the damage output of the weapon. What he means is that hitting 20 times and critting one of those with a 20 /*2 weapon is just like hitting 21 times, while hitting 20 times and critting one of those with a 20 /*4 weapon is just like hitting 23 times. Thus using this measure you'd see that the 19-20 / *3 weapon delivers an extra four blows. More effective than a 20 / *4 or 18-20 / *2 weapon, which should work out about the same. Or yes, a 19-20 / *3 weapon is overpowered even as an exotic weapon. It's worth remembering that at high levels, most of the damage dealt out by a blow will come from modifiers (which count multiple times on a crit) and not from the weapon damage dice, so reducing the damage die size may not be that effective in curbing high-level abuse. Making it a light weapon would be the best way of doing that - no PA damage bonus and can't get multipliers to Str damage bonus.
CelestialBarbarian 02-10-07, 07:55 AM	this guy meant it like this: if you hit someone 20 times, then your damage is 22x the damage you do in 1 hit. so x28 means like 8 times more than without crits I see, so the "x#" represents the number of normal hits worth of damage you'd do on average given the likelihood of a critical hit and the critical multiplier. The problem is that it doesn't take into account the probability of confirming the critical hit; it assumes 100% confirmation of a critical hit. That represents not an average as it purports to, but an upper bound on how high the difference can go. At the lower bound, 0% chance of confirmation, there's no difference between any of these options. So the difference starts at zero and rises to a maximum of what he's posted at 100% rate of confirmation. It's impossible to give an average rate of confirmation given the vast variety of attack bonuses and armor classes available, but I think a fairer comparison would be to take the midway point of the range, a 50% chance of confirmation. You'll see that it compresses the differences listed above: 20 (x2) = x20.5 20 (x3) = x21 20 (x4) = x21.5 19-20 (x2) = x21 19-20 (x3) = x22 18-20 (x2) = x21.5 With Improved Critical, the numbers adjust themselves as shown: 19-20 (x2) = x21 19-20 (x3) = x22 19-20 (x4) = x23 17-20 (x2) = x22 17-20 (x3) = x24 15-20 (x2) = x23 So you see that the lower the chance of confirming a critical, the lower the difference. Without Improved Critical, your proposal results in only a slight increase in the average damage over 20 hits (equal to half of a normal hit) over the best existing weapons. With Improved Critical you get an increase equal to only one normal hit over 20. Given that the weapon has a base damage of only 2d4 (average 5), whereas a greataxe does 1d12 (average 6.5) and a greatsword does 2d6 (average 7) I seriously doubt it would unbalance your campaign. :) Edit: Ok, let's take an extreme case. Let's say that you have Improved Critical, wield the weapon with two hands, have a Strength of 30, and can hit 100% of the time with Power Attack 10. With this weapon you do an average of 5 weapon damage + (10*1.5 Strength bonus) + (2*10 Power Attack) = 40. That means with a 50% change of confirming a critical you'd do an extra 40 per 20 attacks, or an extra 2 per attack on average. Even if you use the original 100% chance of getting a critical hit, you're still doing only an average of an extra 4 points of damage per attack. So unless I'm going my arithemtic wrong--in which case I'm sure someone will point it out :)--your weapon proposal, while slightly better than existing weapons, would hardly unbalance the game.
Nom 02-10-07, 08:27 AM	For any given AC (that does not result in clipping of the threat range), each "+1" of crit multiplier will increase mean damage by +5% over base. A 20/x2 will do 5% more mean damage than a non-critting equivalent. A 18-20/x3 or 20/x4 will do +15%. A 19-20/x3 will do +25%. This can be proven pretty easily, but I've done so 3 or 4 times in the last 6 months and it's too late to do so now.
CelestialBarbarian 02-10-07, 09:13 AM	For any given AC (that does not result in clipping of the threat range), each "+1" of crit multiplier will increase mean damage by +5% over base. A 20/x2 will do 5% more mean damage than a non-critting equivalent. A 18-20/x3 or 20/x4 will do +15%. A 19-20/x3 will do +25%. This can be proven pretty easily, but I've done so 3 or 4 times in the last 6 months and it's too late to do so now. Well then perhaps when you've had a good night's sleep you can point out a flaw or flaws in my computation above. :)
risner 02-10-07, 09:21 AM	How much stronger is a 19-20/x3 than an 18-20/x2? There are no 19-20X3 in 3.5 edition. 19-20x3 is 4 % better than 18-20x2. 19-20x3 = 20x5 exactly There may be monsters with natural weapons set to both, but for manufactured weapons you are limited to increased multiplier or increased threat. This is demonstrated by the erratas of misprints containing weapons with both to be one or the other.
PoorHobo 02-10-07, 09:40 AM	2d4 19-20X3 seems fine as an exotic weapon...you are paying a feat for it.
Cold Napalm 02-10-07, 03:47 PM	well no if your gonna use reduced dice size, wouldn't it be 2d3 19-20x3? Even then it'll be a pretty strong weapon. in 3.0 this weapon crit range existed on a ranged exotic weapon that did 2d6 (orcish shotput) and it was utterly broken.
PoorHobo 02-10-07, 04:21 PM	well no if your gonna use reduced dice size, wouldn't it be 2d3 19-20x3? Even then it'll be a pretty strong weapon. in 3.0 this weapon crit range existed on a ranged exotic weapon that did 2d6 (orcish shotput) and it was utterly broken. Yeah, all the "orcish shotput throwers" that dominated the d20 Character Op board. Wait... Everyone says how paying a feat for EWP isn't worth it, and then when someone comes along with with a weapon that is, everyone screams "Broken!" If you think the orcish shotput is broken I have a 9th level spell called Timestop you should have a look at.
SephDragoon 02-10-07, 04:48 PM	Ok, I think what everyone is trying to say is, it needs more balance. I think it would be fine if the weapon became a 1d6, or 1d8 (maybe, not sure on what base weapon damage counts for). Then it would be a reasonable weapon for exotic two handed.
Imsolost 02-10-07, 06:06 PM	There are no 19-20X3 in 3.5 edition. 19-20x3 is 4 % better than 18-20x2. 19-20x3 = 20x5 exactly I may be wrong but if 19-20x3 is equivalent to 20x5 isnt that the same as an exotic weapon proficiency on the scythe? Also isn't 2d4 damage harder to increase than 2d6 when it comes to increasing size. 2d4->2d6->3d6->4d6 2d6->3d6->4d6->6d6. The larger you are tho worse this weapon ends up being for you, right? How about this as the weapon though? Great Scythe 2H Exotic Weapon 1d10 Damage 19-20/x3 Slashing or Piercing Can be used to make trip attempts -1 to attack rolls due to its balance
Cold Napalm 02-10-07, 06:10 PM	That seems a bit too good still...1d8 or 2d4 would make it better then most other exotic weapons still.
CelestialBarbarian 02-10-07, 06:10 PM	Ok, I think what everyone is trying to say is, it needs more balance. I think it would be fine if the weapon became a 1d6, or 1d8 (maybe, not sure on what base weapon damage counts for). Then it would be a reasonable weapon for exotic two handed. At least two, and perhaps three of us have said that it's fine the way it is.
draconic_swine 02-10-07, 06:11 PM	Everyone says how paying a feat for EWP isn't worth it, and then when someone comes along with with a weapon that is, everyone screams "Broken!" No matter if you think that burning a feat for most exotic weapons is worth it or not, if something is outright better than other equivalent weapons, it's broken. Besides, relatively few people say that most exotic weapons aren't worth the feat.
Rivelstraz 02-10-07, 06:21 PM	While this guide will not give exact number for every weapon, it is spot on for 95%+ of the weapons in the PHB and supplements (like Sword and Fist) All weapons start as Medium d6/20 X2 weapons and get "points" to spend on abilities - simple weapons get 1 point - martial weapons get 2 points - exotic weapons get 3 points Upping the size category by one increases the die size by one, and decreasing the size category by one decreases the die size by one. The die sizes are d3 <-> d4 <-> d6 <-> d8/2d4/(d10) <-> d12/2d6 <-> 2d8 (as per pg. 162 of the DMG) You can spend your points in the following ways: * 1 point per die size increase (max +2 die sizes) * 1 point per threat range increase (max two points spent) * 1 point per critical multiplier increase (max two points spent) * 1 point for reach * 1 point for ranged weapon (increased range increment is just extra gp cost) * 2 points for a double-headed weapon * 2 points to be usable with a monk's UBAB * 3 points to threaten at both 10' and 5' * -1 points to require a move-equivalent action to reload, and reloading draws an AoO * -3 points to require a standard action or longer to reload, and reloading draws an AoO Check for yourself :)
PoorHobo 02-10-07, 06:28 PM	No matter if you think that burning a feat for most exotic weapons is worth it or not, if something is outright better than other equivalent weapons, it's broken. Besides, relatively few people say that most exotic weapons aren't worth the feat. You and I have a vastly different idea of the meaning Broken. 19-20X3 Better? Yes. Game breaking? No.
CelestialBarbarian 02-10-07, 06:31 PM	You and I have a vastly different idea of the meaning Broken. 19-20X3 Better? Yes. Game breaking? No. Yes, and as I demonstrated above, only better by an average of 4 points per attack over the course of 20 attacks--and them only assuming some near-perfect conditions.
draconic_swine 02-10-07, 09:55 PM	You and I have a vastly different idea of the meaning Broken. 19-20X3 Better? Yes. Game breaking? No. Okay, broken is a bit harsh. But I still wouldn't allow it.
paavan 02-11-07, 03:03 AM	er there is a exotic weapon that is 19-20X4 1d10 that has reach of 10 feet, slashing that can be used for triping. it is in the Eberron Campaign setting. it is called Talenta Sharrash and it looks like a scythe and is two handed
Cold Napalm 02-11-07, 03:35 AM	er there is a exotic weapon that is 19-20X4 1d10 that has reach of 10 feet, slashing that can be used for triping. it is in the Eberron Campaign setting. it is called Talenta Sharrash and it looks like a scythe and is two handed And that is soooo errataed...
CelestialBarbarian 02-11-07, 03:45 AM	er there is a exotic weapon that is 19-20X4 1d10 that has reach of 10 feet, slashing that can be used for triping. it is in the Eberron Campaign setting. it is called Talenta Sharrash and it looks like a scythe and is two handed The errata contains a reduction of the multiplier to x2.
The_Shaman 02-11-07, 11:36 AM	If we are discussing only the critical modifiers, we are omitting important things IMO. So the scythe has a x4 and is martial. The Falchion has a 18-20x2 and is martial. With 2d4 as a base damage, I fail to see what would be so earth-shatteringly broken for a two-handed exotic weapon. It does depend on size and additional properties, though. Having bonuses to disarm, trip, or reach would change things. However, a greatsword is martial and has 1 steps higher damage (2d4-2d6). A weapon with the same properties, but exotic and with 1 step lower damage that has a better critical modifier would imo be about as good.
Ogre4Hire 02-11-07, 07:06 PM	The real brokenness of a weapon with 19-20X3 crits isn't from the base stats, it's when you start adding Improved Crit, then put Shocking Burst, Flaming Burst, Freezing Burst, and Thundering on such a weapon. Suddenly, the damage output explodes when compared to other weapons.
CelestialBarbarian 02-11-07, 07:21 PM	The real brokenness of a weapon with 19-20X3 crits isn't from the base stats, it's when you start adding Improved Crit, then put Shocking Burst, Flaming Burst, Freezing Burst, and Thundering on such a weapon. Suddenly, the damage output explodes when compared to other weapons. As I demonstrated above, you can heap some pretty big extra damage on this weapon and even with the extreme assumption of confirming 100% of your critical threats, you still end up with an average of a just a few (2-4) extra points per attack over the course of 20 attacks.
M.E. Charm 02-11-07, 07:50 PM	All the numbers and mathematics aside, it's rather strange a greatscythe has a threat of 19-20. The scythe has just 20, how come a greatscythe (not to mention an unbalancing one) has a greater threat? Its even explained in the PHB, the longsword has 19-20/x2 because its more accurate, while the battleaxe has 20/x3 because when you DO hit just right it's more devestating. A scythe is even worse than the axe in exchange for lower regular damage. The only way I can see a 19-20/x3 is on a weapon to which Weapon Finesse can be applied, something like the rapier. How about.. Exotic Weapon: Colichemarde one-handed weapon Piercing 1d6 19-20/x3 The Colichemarde is a lightweight thrusting sword similair to the rapier. It is less accurate than the rapier, but the blade widens as it goes down making it more crippling than its common counterpart. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a colichemarde sized for you, eventhough it isnt a light weapon for you. You can't wield a colichemarde in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage.
lint trap 02-11-07, 08:27 PM	I understand reluctance to break the "threat/multiplier" prescedent, but I don't think it's a game-breaker. It seems odd that WotC is so intent on preventing power-creep with melee and missle weapons, but not with classes (Tome of Battle) or spells (take your pick). So go for it; all you'll be doing is making EWP a viable feat for something other than a Spiked Chain.
StruckingFuggle 02-11-07, 09:49 PM	If you're going to make an exotic weapon like that, it should totally be a one-handed weapon. >.>
Imsolost 02-11-07, 10:31 PM	Jhovar is a unbalanced (as in the blades balance, not in game power terms) greatsword that is 18-20/x2. Also a 19-20/x3 is way too good for a one handed weapon, imagine dual weilding them. Greatscyth was just a name for a weapon, I am mainly trying to see if a weapon that is 2d4 19-20/x3 exotic 2h is balanced. It was said earlier that its mechanically the same as a 2d4 20/x5 which can be seen as an exotic scythe, right? Oh and for a greatscythe doing 19-20/x3 image a scythe like weapon that has a broad ended sword blade for the scythe blade and was made specifically for the purpose of accurate powerful hits, 19-20/x3 makes sense then right?
spectralphoenix 02-11-07, 11:04 PM	The problem is that it doesn't take into account the probability of confirming the critical hit; it assumes 100% confirmation of a critical hit. Assuming the lower bound of your crit range is good enough to hit, and you don't have Power Critical or the like, the formula is correct. The odds of you confirming a crit are the same as that of hitting in the first place (subject to the caveats above.) When a is your damage on a hit, x is your % threat range, y is your additional damage on a crit, and z is your % to hit: damage per attack = a*(z-x)+ax*(1-z)+(a+y)xz Where the first term is the chance of you hitting but not rolling in the crit range, the second is rolling in the crit range but missing, and the third is rolling in the crit range, hitting the ac, and doing extra damage. This equation reduces to: damage per attack = z(a+xy) Damage/attack divided by z gives you your damage/hit damage/hit = a+xy Which completely removes z as a factor. The odds of not confirming a critical hit are canceled by the facts that a crit does normal damage + some more and that an unconfirmed hit still does normal damage.
StruckingFuggle 02-11-07, 11:11 PM	Jhovar is a unbalanced (as in the blades balance, not in game power terms) greatsword that is 18-20/x2. Also a 19-20/x3 is way too good for a one handed weapon, imagine dual weilding them. Dual wielding them? Bah ... better to put a large one into the two-handed grip of a Mountain Raging Goliath Barbarian / Exotic Weapon Master. :) Besides. I don't think it would be that broken to dual wield your high-threat x3 weapons. No one really dual wields oversized weapons, especially if they require an EWP - that's two feats (EWP and OTWF) on top of all of the normal TWF feats... and even then, I don't think the damage would be significantly different for most TWFers compared to dual-wielding a rapier and a kukri or even two daggers.
TonyStark 02-11-07, 11:21 PM	There is ANOTHER weapon other than the eberon one that is D10 19-20 x4 it is MMIV - the weapon that the greathorn minotaur rocks. the text specificly states that it is an exotic weapon for all non greathorns, and even shows how to calculate weight for smaller and larger ones. Anyone know for surt that this has bees errata'ed away yet? if not, go minotaur hunting! if it has been errataed, please post link, one of my players uses this thing and it is beastly!
Ogre4Hire 02-12-07, 12:34 AM	The MM IV doesn't have errata yet (that I know of), but frankly, as DM it's your job to determine if what is allowed in your game, and "it's from the MM IV" is sufficient reason to not allow it.
risner 02-13-07, 11:00 AM	There is ANOTHER weapon other than the eberon one that is D10 19-20 x4 it is MMIV - the weapon that the greathorn minotaur rocks. The stat block for the monster is: Greathammer 3d6+10 / x4 Remove STR = 3d6+3 Remove his perma power attack and other factors = 3d6 Drop down from Large to Medium = 3d6 -> 1d12 (DMG p28) You see, that the 19-20 is a printing error. You have no other option but to conclude it is a printing error. Edit: I just opened the book (p100) and performed an audit.
CelestialBarbarian 02-13-07, 11:40 AM	The stat block for the monster is: Greathammer 3d6+10 / x4 Remove STR = 3d6+3 Remove his perma power attack and other factors = 3d6 Drop down from Large to Medium = 3d6 -> 1d12 (DMG p28) You see, that the 19-20 is a printing error. You have no other option but to conclude it is a printing error. Edit: I just opened the book (p100) and performed an audit. Then I don't think that the multiverse will implode of the original poster gets is 19-20/x3 weapon. :D
risner 02-13-07, 05:41 PM	Then I don't think that the multiverse will implode of the original poster gets is 19-20/x3 weapon. :D I do, what about my post confirming the MM IV weapon was 20x4 seemed to imply 19-20x3 was ok?
CelestialBarbarian 02-13-07, 06:02 PM	I do, You think 19-20/x3 will cause the multiverse to implode?! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
kalstrand 02-13-07, 09:33 PM	The Goliath Greathammer in Races of Stone uses the exact same stats as the Greathammer in the MM4 and is listed with the 20X4 for the crit.
Wonton2006 02-13-07, 10:42 PM	I remember doing some math on this and it worked out to be just a little better than 18-20/x2 and x4. Considering that it's an exotic weapon, I'd say that 2d4, 19-20/x3 is just fine, and 2d6 is arguably balanced.
CelestialBarbarian 02-14-07, 04:13 AM	The Goliath Greathammer in Races of Stone uses the exact same stats as the Greathammer in the MM4 and is listed with the 20X4 for the crit. Oh, there are official weapons called greathammers?! I was using a greathammer for quite a while, 2d6/x3. Then I decided that it was really just a large warhammer, and started imposing the -2 size penalty on the attacks when used by a medium-sized character. What are the stats on the official greathammers? Thanks! :)
risner 02-14-07, 08:38 AM	I remember doing some math on this and it worked out to be just a little better than 18-20/x2 and x4. Considering that it's an exotic weapon, I'd say that 2d4, 19-20/x3 is just fine, and 2d6 is arguably balanced. You are right on the math, but 2d6 19-20x3 (and 2d4) are not ok. Two Handed Exotics: 2d6 19-20/x3 = -40%-5%+30%+25% = 120% 2d4 19-20/x3 = -40%-5%+22%+25% = 112% 2d6 19-20/x2 = -40%-5%+30%+10% = 95% 2d6 18-20/x2 = -40%-5%+30%+15% = 100% 2d6 20/x2 = -40%-5%+30%+5% = 90% 2d6 20/x3 = -40%-5%+30%+10% = 95% 2d6 20/x4 = -40%-5%+30%+15% = 100% Oh, there are official weapons called greathammers?! What are the stats on the official greathammers? Thanks! :) 1d12 20x4 For the rest of the info, look up Races of Stone or MMIV.
kalstrand 02-14-07, 08:27 PM	Heh too slow check Risner's post above.
Imsolost 02-14-07, 10:43 PM	then how does a 2d4 20x5 work in that percentage pricing? Isn't that the same thing as the scythe but on steroids (aka the exotic weapon feat). It was also mathmatically proven equal to 19-20x3 IIRC.
CelestialBarbarian 02-15-07, 04:38 AM	Heh too slow check Risner's post above. It's too bad you changed your post; the original had more information. Fortunately I still have your original text in my notification email. Thanks! :)
Nom 02-21-07, 07:52 AM	Well then perhaps when you've had a good night's sleep you can point out a flaw or flaws in my computation above. :)As others pointed out, your numbers, when converted to a +X%, are half what they should be (ie 20.5 (+2.5%) should be 21 (+5%), and so on). The error is because you're assuming a failed confirmation roll is a miss, not a hit. The half is because you're assuming a 50% chance of confirmation, when in fact the to-hit value is (almost) irrelevant when calculating the effect of crit value on mean damage. As I pointed out, the easiest way to understand crits is to realise that they are just "extra hits". 19-20/x2 does one extra hit (x2 => +1) 10% of the time. Since base 20/x2 (+1 in my system) is +5%, 19-20/x2 works out as +2 or +10%. As a general rule, each +1 increase in the crit range bumps the weapon 1 step. I actually made a mistake, however. 19-20/x3 is a 10% chance of dealing +2 hits, or net +4, not +5. Thus, bumping a scythe from 20/x4 (+3) to 19-20/x3 (+4) would be OK if nothing else were changed except that the new weapon were exotic.
CelestialBarbarian 02-21-07, 09:57 AM	As others pointed out, your numbers, when converted to a +X%, are half what they should be (ie 20.5 (+2.5%) should be 21 (+5%), and so on). The error is because you're assuming a failed confirmation roll is a miss, not a hit. The half is because you're assuming a 50% chance of confirmation, when in fact the to-hit value is (almost) irrelevant when calculating the effect of crit value on mean damage. As I pointed out, the easiest way to understand crits is to realise that they are just "extra hits". 19-20/x2 does one extra hit (x2 => +1) 10% of the time. Since base 20/x2 (+1 in my system) is +5%, 19-20/x2 works out as +2 or +10%. As a general rule, each +1 increase in the crit range bumps the weapon 1 step. I actually made a mistake, however. 19-20/x3 is a 10% chance of dealing +2 hits, or net +4, not +5. Thus, bumping a scythe from 20/x4 (+3) to 19-20/x3 (+4) would be OK if nothing else were changed except that the new weapon were exotic. I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. Your numbers assume that all threats are confirmed. I just took an example, using a 50% confirm rate instead of the 100% confirm rate that you assumed, and showed that it cuts the differences in half. More importantly, I took your numbers and showed that even assuming a hefty Power Attack bonus on damage that at most you get an average of 4 points more per attack--hardly something that will bring down the game. Your claims of brokenness are grossly inflated, even using your own grossly inflated statistics. Edit: Is it better? Of course it is. Nobody disputes that. Is it earth-shakingly better? Hardly. :)
Nom 02-21-07, 04:03 PM	I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. Your numbers assume that all threats are confirmed. I just took an example, using a 50% confirm rate instead of the 100% confirm rate that you assumed, and showed that it cuts the differences in half.Incorrect. My numbers assume that all unconfirmed threats are hits. Spectral phoenix posted the maths above. The to-hit factors out. If it doesn't, either your to-hit is within the threat range or your simulation is wrong. Edit: Another thought - are you calculating mean damage per attack or per hit? If the latter, are you remembering to divide the threat range by the hit probability? Example: If I hit 50% of the time with a 20/x2 weapons, then 50% of my attacks will be misses, 45% will be hits, and 5% will be hits and threats. However, if I assume that I at least hit, then 10% of the samples will be threats, since I've thrown away half the possible outcomes before I start.
CelestialBarbarian 02-21-07, 04:19 PM	Incorrect. My numbers assume that all unconfirmed threats are hits. Spectral phoenix posted the maths above. The to-hit factors out. If it doesn't, either your to-hit is within the threat range or your simulation is wrong. Wrong. My numbers assume that unconfirmed crits are normal hits. Yours assume that all crits are confirmed. More importantly, even if your assumption of 100% confirmation were correct, I demonstated above that even with a generous assumption of a Power Attack 10 with a two-handed weapon, the weapon would do an average of only 4 extra points of damage over the 20 attacks. I've said that before, and you've ignored it, preferring to focus on your flawed 100% confirmation assumption. Frankly it's like talking to the wall--I can do it, but it's useless.
Zherog 02-21-07, 04:43 PM	Check for yourself :) Rivelstraz, if you're going to quote the work chonjurer has done the least you could do is attach his name to it. And even better, in this case, would be to provide a link to his webpage where you took the quote from. edit: I found the link to chonjuer's original article (http://www.ucalgary.ca/~ammaster/d_n_d/custom_weapons.html) that Rivelstraz failed to quote, for those interested. Not that the article is written for the 3.0 system, so there's a few things that might look wacky to those who only know 3.5.
Commx 02-21-07, 04:44 PM	Check for yourself :) Because I was bored, I applied that list to all of the melee weapons in the PHB. Looking at the result I think it's not that accurate. The bolded ones are those which come out as wrong, so unless I'm doing something very wrong, over half of them doesn't match with the list. All weapons start as Medium d6/20 X2 weapons and get "points" to spend on abilities - simple weapons get 1 point - martial weapons get 2 points - exotic weapons get 3 points Upping the size category by one increases the die size by one, and decreasing the size category by one decreases the die size by one. The die sizes are d3 <-> d4 <-> d6 <-> d8/2d4/(d10) <-> d12/2d6 <-> 2d8 (as per pg. 162 of the DMG) You can spend your points in the following ways: * 1 point per die size increase (max +2 die sizes) * 1 point per threat range increase (max two points spent) * 1 point per critical multiplier increase (max two points spent) * 1 point for reach * 1 point for ranged weapon (increased range increment is just extra gp cost) * 2 points for a double-headed weapon * 2 points to be usable with a monk's UBAB * 3 points to threaten at both 10' and 5' * -1 points to require a move-equivalent action to reload, and reloading draws an AoO * -3 points to require a standard action or longer to reload, and reloading draws an AoO ****Simple****: Dagger: -1(D4),+1(19-20),+1(Throwable) = 1 (3 with Monk) Dagger, Punching:,+1(x3) = 1 Gauntlet, Spiked: -1(D4) = -1 Mace, Light: 0 Sickle: 0 Club: +1(Throwable) = 1 (3 with Monk) Mace, Heavy: +1(D8) = 1 Morningstar: +1(D8) = 1 Shortspear: +1(Throwable) = 1 Longspear: +1(Reach), +1(D8), +1(x3) = 3! Quarterstaff: +2(Double) = 2 (4 with Monk) Spear: +1(D8), +1(x3), +1(Throwable) = 3! ****Martial****: Axe, throwing: +1(Throwable) = 1 Hammer, light: -1(D4) +1(Throwable) = 0 Handaxe: +1(x3) = 1 (3 with Monk) Kukri: -1(D4) +2(18-20) = 1 Pick, light: -1(D4) +2(x4) = 1 Sap: 0 Sword, short: +1(19-20) = 1 Battleaxe: +1(D8) +1(x3) = 2 Flail: +1(D8) = 1 Longsword: +1(D8) +1(19-20) = 2 Pick, heavy: +2(x4) = 2 Rapier: +2(18-20) = 2 Scimitar: +2(18-20) = 2 Trident: +1(D8) +1(Throwable) = 2 Warhammer: +1(D8) +1(x3) = 2 Falchion: +1(2D4) +2(18-20) = 3 Glaive: +1(D10) +1(x3) +1(Reach) = 3 Greataxe: +2(D12) +1(x3) = 3 Greatclub: +1(D10) = 1 Flail, heavy: +1(D10) +1(19-20) = 2 Greatsword: +2(2D6) +1(19-20) = 3 Guisarme: +1(2D4) +1(x3) +1(Reach) = 3 Halberd: +1(D10) +1(x3) = 2 Lance: +1(D8) +1(x3) +1(Reach) = 3 Ranseur: +1(2D4) +1(x3) +1(Reach) = 3 Scythe: +1(2D4) +2(x3) = 3 ****Exotic*** Kama: 0 (2 with Monk) Nunchaku: 0 (2 with Monk) Sai: -1(D4) +1(Throwable) = 0 (2 with Monk) Siangham: 0 (2 with Monk) Sword, bastard: +1(D10) +1(19-20) = 2 Waraxe, dwarven: +1(D10) +1(x3) = 2 Whip: -2(D3) +1(Reach) = -1 Axe, orc double: +1(D8) +2(Double) +1(x3) = 4 Chain, spiked: +1(2D4) +3(5/10) = 4 Flail, dire: +1(D8) +2(Double) = 3 Hammer, gnome hooked: +1(D8) +1.5(semi-Double) +1.5(x3/x4) = 4 Sword, two-bladed: +1(D8) +2(Double) +1(19-20) = 4 Urgrosh, dwarven: +1(D8) +1.5(Semi-Double) +1(x3) = 3.5
Zherog 02-21-07, 04:59 PM	What you're missing is the weapon size stuff. As I said, it's written for 3.0 (rather than 3.5). Here's the conversion you need: small weapon = light weapon medium weapon = one-handed weapon large weapon = two-handed weapon usable with a monk's UBAB = usable with a monk's flurry of blows. Most of them work out OK once you convert the terminology.
Kresalak 02-21-07, 04:59 PM	The average damage of 2d4 19-20x3 is, assuming that all critical hits are confirmed, is 6. The average damage of a Greatsword is 7.7. The 2d4 19-20x3 doesn't become better than a Greatsword until it has more than 17 points of bonus damage added to it.
Pangeon 02-21-07, 05:07 PM	Because I was bored, I applied that list to all of the melee weapons in the PHB. Looking at the result I think it's not that accurate. The bolded ones are those which come out as wrong, so unless I'm doing something very wrong, over half of them doesn't match with the list. All weapons start as Medium d6/20 X2 weapons and get "points" to spend on abilities - simple weapons get 1 point - martial weapons get 2 points - exotic weapons get 3 points Upping the size category by one increases the die size by one, and decreasing the size category by one decreases the die size by one. The die sizes are d3 <-> d4 <-> d6 <-> d8/2d4/(d10) <-> d12/2d6 <-> 2d8 (as per pg. 162 of the DMG) You can spend your points in the following ways: * 1 point per die size increase (max +2 die sizes) * 1 point per threat range increase (max two points spent) * 1 point per critical multiplier increase (max two points spent) * 1 point for reach * 1 point for ranged weapon (increased range increment is just extra gp cost) * 2 points for a double-headed weapon * 2 points to be usable with a monk's UBAB * 3 points to threaten at both 10' and 5' * -1 points to require a move-equivalent action to reload, and reloading draws an AoO * -3 points to require a standard action or longer to reload, and reloading draws an AoO ****Simple****: Dagger: -1(D4),+1(19-20),+1(Throwable) = 1 (3 with Monk) Dagger, Punching:,+1(x3) = 1 Gauntlet, Spiked: -1(D4) = -1 Mace, Light: 0 Sickle: 0 Club: +1(Throwable) = 1 (3 with Monk) Mace, Heavy: +1(D8) = 1 Morningstar: +1(D8) = 1 Shortspear: +1(Throwable) = 1 Longspear: +1(Reach), +1(D8), +1(x3) = 3! Quarterstaff: +2(Double) = 2 (4 with Monk) Spear: +1(D8), +1(x3), +1(Throwable) = 3! ****Martial****: Axe, throwing: +1(Throwable) = 1 Hammer, light: -1(D4) +1(Throwable) = 0 Handaxe: +1(x3) = 1 (3 with Monk) Kukri: -1(D4) +2(18-20) = 1 Pick, light: -1(D4) +2(x4) = 1 Sap: 0 Sword, short: +1(19-20) = 1 Battleaxe: +1(D8) +1(x3) = 2 Flail: +1(D8) = 1 Longsword: +1(D8) +1(19-20) = 2 Pick, heavy: +2(x4) = 2 Rapier: +2(18-20) = 2 Scimitar: +2(18-20) = 2 Trident: +1(D8) +1(Throwable) = 2 Warhammer: +1(D8) +1(x3) = 2 Falchion: +1(2D4) +2(18-20) = 3 Glaive: +1(D10) +1(x3) +1(Reach) = 3 Greataxe: +2(D12) +1(x3) = 3 Greatclub: +1(D10) = 1 Flail, heavy: +1(D10) +1(19-20) = 2 Greatsword: +2(2D6) +1(19-20) = 3 Guisarme: +1(2D4) +1(x3) +1(Reach) = 3 Halberd: +1(D10) +1(x3) = 2 Lance: +1(D8) +1(x3) +1(Reach) = 3 Ranseur: +1(2D4) +1(x3) +1(Reach) = 3 Scythe: +1(2D4) +2(x3) = 3 ****Exotic*** Kama: 0 (2 with Monk) Nunchaku: 0 (2 with Monk) Sai: -1(D4) +1(Throwable) = 0 (2 with Monk) Siangham: 0 (2 with Monk) Sword, bastard: +1(D10) +1(19-20) = 2 Waraxe, dwarven: +1(D10) +1(x3) = 2 Whip: -2(D3) +1(Reach) = -1 Axe, orc double: +1(D8) +2(Double) +1(x3) = 4 Chain, spiked: +1(2D4) +3(5/10) = 4 Flail, dire: +1(D8) +2(Double) = 3 Hammer, gnome hooked: +1(D8) +1.5(semi-Double) +1.5(x3/x4) = 4 Sword, two-bladed: +1(D8) +2(Double) +1(19-20) = 4 Urgrosh, dwarven: +1(D8) +1.5(Semi-Double) +1(x3) = 3.5 What you're doing wrong is failing to consider the weapon's size. A Short Sword comes out not good enough in your analysis because it is a light weapon. Another issue with this system (and not necessarily your analysis,) is the special qualities of weapons, like being able to make trip attacks. Try this system instead. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31817 Edit: Aah, Zherog beat me to it. Try out the link though, it's probably the most thorough system I've seen.
Nom 02-21-07, 08:44 PM	CelestialBarbarian, I have a better suggestion: show your working. It's impossible to meaningfully comment on your numbers when I don't understand how they were generated. In contrast, you can see from Spectral Phoenix's post that expected damage eventually resolves to z(a+xy). a = expected damage, x = chance to threaten, y = extra damage on crit, z = hit chance. What he forgot to mention is that (in the normal case), y = (crit mult - 1) * a, which leaves us with z.a.(1+x(m-1)). 20/x2 is x = 5%, m = 2, and thus you do 1+5% of nominal damage. This is true regardless of z or a.