2 Bladed Weapon and 2 Weapon Fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 Bladed Weapon and 2 Weapon Fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ravens Claw
06-16-07, 05:40 PM I would like some help with the following scenario. Feedback (with page references) would be appreciated.

There is a 1st level human fighter with a strength of 18.

For his first 2 feats he picks Exotic Weapon Double Blade and 2 weapon fighting (he has a 3rd (bonus) feat unrelated to this scenario).

When he charges into combat AND hits his opponent with a single (charge) attack from his Double Bladed Sword his damage is D8 + 6?

Yes / No

When he uses a full attack action to fight "with 2 weapons" i.e. with both sides of his double blade, assuming he hits both times, his damage would be D8 + 4 for the main hand and D8 + 2 for the off hand?

Yes / No

When he uses a full attack action to fight "with 2 weapons" i.e. with both sides of his double blade, assuming he hits both times, his damage would be D8 + 4 (because he is striking with a 2 handed weapon as well as a double weapon) for the main hand and D8 + 2 for the off hand?

Yes / No

Thanks in advance

Cheers
tarkin
06-16-07, 05:58 PM When he charges into combat AND hits his opponent with a single (charge) attack from his Double Bladed Sword his damage is D8 + 6?

YES

When he uses a full attack action to fight "with 2 weapons" i.e. with both sides of his double blade, assuming he hits both times, his damage would be D8 + 4 for the main hand and D8 + 2 for the off hand?

YES

When he uses a full attack action to fight "with 2 weapons" i.e. with both sides of his double blade, assuming he hits both times, his damage would be D8 + 4 (because he is striking with a 2 handed weapon as well as a double weapon) for the main hand and D8 + 2 for the off hand?

kind of.

You gave the wrong reason. The fact that he is striking with a two handed weapon is irrelevnt, he is using his main hand to attack. That is the only thing that matters. The kind of weapon is honestly irrelevant to the strength damage in this case (and in most cases)
Ravens Claw
06-16-07, 07:33 PM Thanks tarkin. You've been offering good advice for how long now??? :teach:

However I made an error with the third question. It should read

When he uses a full attack action to fight "with 2 weapons" i.e. with both sides of his double blade, assuming he hits both times, his damage would be D8 + 6 (because he is striking with a weapon that is a 2 handed weapon AND a double weapon) for the main hand and D8 + 2 for the off hand?

Yes / No

Cheers
NeueRegel
06-16-07, 07:59 PM No. The character must choose one or the other; It's either two-weapon fighting rules OR two-handed figting rules. You can change round to round, but not in the middle of a round. So it's like the separation between you question #1 and #2; #3 doesn't exist.

Neue
jaelis
06-16-07, 09:01 PM Yep, you decide at the beginning of your turn whether to treat the weapon as a 2H weapon (doing 1d8+6 with no extra attack) or as a 1H plus a light weapon (doing 1d8+4 and gaining an extra attack for 1d8+2).

Should he have power attack, the same logic works. He could attack with one end and get a 2:1 ratio, or with both ends and get 1:1 on the primary attacks but no benefit on the off-hand attacks.
StevenO
06-16-07, 09:52 PM 3. Technically correct answer is NO.

Some may disagree but if you are a DM who finds double weapons a little weak I'd say just treat BOTH ends as if they were primary one handed weapons. That changes nothing about the "primary" end but does help the "off-hand" end a little bit so it is now as good as fighting with Oversized TWF and lets you apply PA to both sides.
Ravens Claw
06-17-07, 05:53 PM The thing is we have a player who has a 2 bladed sword with a strength of 18 AND who wants to fight with both ends of the blade AND who expects when fighting with both ends to do 1 1/2 strength damage with his main hand.

Off hand damage is not in dispute.

I am not interested in if 2 weapon fighting is under/over powered, I am just interested in the rule.

Cheers
Nom
06-17-07, 10:19 PM The rules are quite clear: when using it as a double weapon, you treat it as a one handed weapon (primary hand) and a light weapon (off hand). The damage mods follow naturally from that.

You can find these rules in the intro to PH chapter 7 (equipment), as well as other places.
risner
06-17-07, 11:27 PM What is a Double Bladed Sword?

Axe, Orc Double (PH p115)?

Scimitar, Valenar Double (Eb p120)?

A couple things of note:
1) You charge, without pounce, you take a single attack.

2) Any 1d8 off-hand double weapon is going to be considered one handed in the off-hand (so no light off-hand penalty reduction.) Your TWF penalties will be: -4 / -4

I will assume Axe, Orc Double as the weapon.

Answering your questions:
Charge = one attack at +1 (BAB) + 4 (STR) = +5 melee
Does 1d8+int(4*1.5) {1.5 STR} damage = 1d8 + 6

TWF = two attacks:
one at +1 (BAB) +4 (STR) - 4 (TWF) = +1 melee dealing 1d8+4 (STR)
one at +1 (BAB) +4 (STR) - 4 (TWF) = +1 melee dealing 1d8+2 (1/2 STR)

Also, as for the using a double weapon as both a two handed weapon and an off-hand double weapon. That doesn't work. You can not use the same hand (in this case the off-hand "hand") to attack with two different weapons (or ends.) So when he decides he wants to get 1.5 STR with the weapon, he is "using a weapon in two hand." Once he has "used" his off-hand, it is no longer available for use as an off-hand weapon hand.

This would only work if he had three hands (or more.)
cwslyclgh
06-18-07, 12:14 AM What is a Double Bladed Sword?

I am pretty sure the OP meant a normal two-bladed sword...
Despana
06-18-07, 03:18 AM 2) Any 1d8 off-hand double weapon is going to be considered one handed in the off-hand (so no light off-hand penalty reduction.) Your TWF penalties will be: -4 / -4

Ah, no. Every double weapon (at least all that I have ever seen) count the off-hand end as a light weapon. Thus 1/2 Str and no power attack.

An orc double axe is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

Nearly identical verbage on the two-bladed sword, valenar double scimitar, etc.
risner
06-18-07, 01:13 PM Ah, no. Every double weapon (at least all that I have ever seen) count the off-hand end as a light weapon. Thus 1/2 Str and no power attack.

Well, I must say I read that paragraph yesterday and came away with the mistaken conclusion that Axe, Double Orc was odd in some way. You are absolutely correct (at least in regard to everything I examined yesterday.)

One handed and light is the correct way, sorry for the confusion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ravens Claw 06-16-07, 05:40 PM	I would like some help with the following scenario. Feedback (with page references) would be appreciated. There is a 1st level human fighter with a strength of 18. For his first 2 feats he picks Exotic Weapon Double Blade and 2 weapon fighting (he has a 3rd (bonus) feat unrelated to this scenario). When he charges into combat AND hits his opponent with a single (charge) attack from his Double Bladed Sword his damage is D8 + 6? Yes / No When he uses a full attack action to fight "with 2 weapons" i.e. with both sides of his double blade, assuming he hits both times, his damage would be D8 + 4 for the main hand and D8 + 2 for the off hand? Yes / No When he uses a full attack action to fight "with 2 weapons" i.e. with both sides of his double blade, assuming he hits both times, his damage would be D8 + 4 (because he is striking with a 2 handed weapon as well as a double weapon) for the main hand and D8 + 2 for the off hand? Yes / No Thanks in advance Cheers
tarkin 06-16-07, 05:58 PM	When he charges into combat AND hits his opponent with a single (charge) attack from his Double Bladed Sword his damage is D8 + 6? YES When he uses a full attack action to fight "with 2 weapons" i.e. with both sides of his double blade, assuming he hits both times, his damage would be D8 + 4 for the main hand and D8 + 2 for the off hand? YES When he uses a full attack action to fight "with 2 weapons" i.e. with both sides of his double blade, assuming he hits both times, his damage would be D8 + 4 (because he is striking with a 2 handed weapon as well as a double weapon) for the main hand and D8 + 2 for the off hand? kind of. You gave the wrong reason. The fact that he is striking with a two handed weapon is irrelevnt, he is using his main hand to attack. That is the only thing that matters. The kind of weapon is honestly irrelevant to the strength damage in this case (and in most cases)
Ravens Claw 06-16-07, 07:33 PM	Thanks tarkin. You've been offering good advice for how long now??? :teach: However I made an error with the third question. It should read When he uses a full attack action to fight "with 2 weapons" i.e. with both sides of his double blade, assuming he hits both times, his damage would be D8 + 6 (because he is striking with a weapon that is a 2 handed weapon AND a double weapon) for the main hand and D8 + 2 for the off hand? Yes / No Cheers
NeueRegel 06-16-07, 07:59 PM	No. The character must choose one or the other; It's either two-weapon fighting rules OR two-handed figting rules. You can change round to round, but not in the middle of a round. So it's like the separation between you question #1 and #2; #3 doesn't exist. Neue
jaelis 06-16-07, 09:01 PM	Yep, you decide at the beginning of your turn whether to treat the weapon as a 2H weapon (doing 1d8+6 with no extra attack) or as a 1H plus a light weapon (doing 1d8+4 and gaining an extra attack for 1d8+2). Should he have power attack, the same logic works. He could attack with one end and get a 2:1 ratio, or with both ends and get 1:1 on the primary attacks but no benefit on the off-hand attacks.
StevenO 06-16-07, 09:52 PM	3. Technically correct answer is NO. Some may disagree but if you are a DM who finds double weapons a little weak I'd say just treat BOTH ends as if they were primary one handed weapons. That changes nothing about the "primary" end but does help the "off-hand" end a little bit so it is now as good as fighting with Oversized TWF and lets you apply PA to both sides.
Ravens Claw 06-17-07, 05:53 PM	The thing is we have a player who has a 2 bladed sword with a strength of 18 AND who wants to fight with both ends of the blade AND who expects when fighting with both ends to do 1 1/2 strength damage with his main hand. Off hand damage is not in dispute. I am not interested in if 2 weapon fighting is under/over powered, I am just interested in the rule. Cheers
Nom 06-17-07, 10:19 PM	The rules are quite clear: when using it as a double weapon, you treat it as a one handed weapon (primary hand) and a light weapon (off hand). The damage mods follow naturally from that. You can find these rules in the intro to PH chapter 7 (equipment), as well as other places.
risner 06-17-07, 11:27 PM	What is a Double Bladed Sword? Axe, Orc Double (PH p115)? Scimitar, Valenar Double (Eb p120)? A couple things of note: 1) You charge, without pounce, you take a single attack. 2) Any 1d8 off-hand double weapon is going to be considered one handed in the off-hand (so no light off-hand penalty reduction.) Your TWF penalties will be: -4 / -4 I will assume Axe, Orc Double as the weapon. Answering your questions: Charge = one attack at +1 (BAB) + 4 (STR) = +5 melee Does 1d8+int(4*1.5) {1.5 STR} damage = 1d8 + 6 TWF = two attacks: one at +1 (BAB) +4 (STR) - 4 (TWF) = +1 melee dealing 1d8+4 (STR) one at +1 (BAB) +4 (STR) - 4 (TWF) = +1 melee dealing 1d8+2 (1/2 STR) Also, as for the using a double weapon as both a two handed weapon and an off-hand double weapon. That doesn't work. You can not use the same hand (in this case the off-hand "hand") to attack with two different weapons (or ends.) So when he decides he wants to get 1.5 STR with the weapon, he is "using a weapon in two hand." Once he has "used" his off-hand, it is no longer available for use as an off-hand weapon hand. This would only work if he had three hands (or more.)
cwslyclgh 06-18-07, 12:14 AM	What is a Double Bladed Sword? I am pretty sure the OP meant a normal two-bladed sword...
Despana 06-18-07, 03:18 AM	2) Any 1d8 off-hand double weapon is going to be considered one handed in the off-hand (so no light off-hand penalty reduction.) Your TWF penalties will be: -4 / -4 Ah, no. Every double weapon (at least all that I have ever seen) count the off-hand end as a light weapon. Thus 1/2 Str and no power attack. An orc double axe is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. Nearly identical verbage on the two-bladed sword, valenar double scimitar, etc.
risner 06-18-07, 01:13 PM	Ah, no. Every double weapon (at least all that I have ever seen) count the off-hand end as a light weapon. Thus 1/2 Str and no power attack. Well, I must say I read that paragraph yesterday and came away with the mistaken conclusion that Axe, Double Orc was odd in some way. You are absolutely correct (at least in regard to everything I examined yesterday.) One handed and light is the correct way, sorry for the confusion.