2 handed thrown weapons Damage+1.5*Str? [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 handed thrown weapons Damage+1.5*Str? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
00_Whupass
04-05-06, 06:10 PM When throwing a two handed throwing weapon like a harpoon do you apply Str modifier(x1) like other thrown weapons, or do you add Str modifier(x2) since its two handed.

I know you do not get the double return for two handed weapons on Power Throw that you do on Power attack, which causes me to believe that str is only applied once on throw weapons regardless of the number of hands used, but what do you think?
Droken
04-05-06, 06:32 PM I can think of very few weapons that would be thrown with two hands. A harpoon for instance, although wielded with two hands, would be thrown in one like a javalin.

So I think the rule of thumb would be just normal strength bonus.
SlowFall
04-05-06, 07:21 PM *Throws greataxe over head with two hands.*

I can throw things with two hands. Two hands are stronger than one, therefore it should do more damage.
jaelis
04-05-06, 07:34 PM You never get 1.5 x Str with a thrown weapon. It specifies that clearly in the Weapons section:

Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).

And when it talks about 2H weapons, it is clearly that you only get 1.5 x damage for melee weapons:

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
Tony Vargas
04-05-06, 07:55 PM Same goes for power attack - melee only.

3.0 was very clear about two-handed throwing weapons, like the spear. You didn't need two hands to throw them, just one, but doing so was a full-round action.

3.5 has some of the same language, but it's burried in a paragraph about improvised throwing weapons.
Nom
04-05-06, 09:01 PM There are no specific rules for throwing weapons two-handed. The thrown weapon rules specify that you apply your Str modifier to damage with (non-splash) thrown weapons (PH pg 113, 134). The light, one-handed and two-handed classifications only apply to melee weapons (PH pg 113).

It is possible to throw a light, one-handed or even two-handed melee weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (ie no range increment). All such attacks suffer a -4 attack penalty. The weapon deals normal damage but with 20/x2 crit, at a range increment of 10 feet (PH pg 113). The rules don't suggest that you use a non-standard Str mod, suggesting that the weapon is still treated as if throwing a one-handed weapon.

Improvised throwing of a 2-handed melee weapon is a full-round action. Spears are designed to be thrown and use the normal thrown weapon rules.
Tony111
04-05-06, 10:38 PM I believe that stone giants can throw stones two-handed, and they add 1.5 strength when donig so.

-Tony
Raven Dark
04-05-06, 10:52 PM You never get 1.5 x Str with a thrown weapon. It specifies that clearly in the Weapons section:

And when it talks about 2H weapons, it is clearly that you only get 1.5 x damage for melee weapons:

That's balogny, Jaelis. It is also an over-generalization of the rules. The quote you provided lists only one-handed weapons and thus does not take into account the possibility that they could be thrown two-handed.

You do get x1.5 strength on damage if you throw a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon with two hands. It may look funny (it really isn't all that unbelievable, really), but it is allowed per the rules.

The giants and their boulders cited earlier are a good example of one case in which this is true.
Ashok_Lal
04-06-06, 12:15 AM All thrown weapons only get .5 damage
Raven Dark
04-06-06, 12:33 AM All thrown weapons only get .5 damage

Maybe you could quote us a source instead of throwing in such questionable statements out of the blue?
Nom
04-06-06, 02:06 AM The giants and their boulders cited earlier are a good example of one case in which this is true.Not all giants, just "stone giants". One monster which is specifically called out as unusual certainly constitutes an exception, but not necessarily a precedent.

Also note that such a rock is not an improvised weapon. There is no PH non-improvised weapon that is thrown with two hands.
Tony111
04-06-06, 12:55 PM On a (somewhat similar) note, what happens if I cast whirling blade while using a two-handed weapon? Can I get 1.5 my charisma or intelligence to damage?

-Tony
jaelis
04-06-06, 01:15 PM That's balogny, Jaelis. It is also an over-generalization of the rules. The quote you provided lists only one-handed weapons and thus does not take into account the possibility that they could be thrown two-handed.

You do get x1.5 strength on damage if you throw a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon with two hands. It may look funny (it really isn't all that unbelievable, really), but it is allowed per the rules.

The giants and their boulders cited earlier are a good example of one case in which this is true.

I like balogna just fine on a sandwich, but I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The list in the quote includes the spear which is certainly two-handed. Regardless, it makes a blanket statement about thrown weapons that nominally applies to all of them. If there is an exception written somewhere else, then that is fine, but as I also quoted, the 1.5 Str rules explicitly applies only to melee weapons. I don't see how you can argue that this is not what the rules say.

There is no PH non-improvised weapon that is thrown with two hands.

Do you all know something (in the game rules) about the spear that I don't?
bondious
04-06-06, 01:28 PM Maybe a feat is in order, here. We could call it "Two-Handed Throw" which would enable the character to throw a weapon with two hands, to take advantage of the x1.5 Str. modifier. I would stipulate that the throw would take a standard action, so only one throw per round. :D

I agree, though, that MOST weapons are thrown in one hand, and to try throwing with two hands for MOST weapons would be rather clumbsy. I think of the exceptions, like when you see someone throw his sword or axe with two hands, above his head, but I'm thinking that's more to steady the weapon and line up the throw more than trying to gain more power to the attack. That's just me, though.
Dalthbar
04-06-06, 01:36 PM When I think about throwing weapons, it seems that all weapons that are designed to be thrown are thrown one-handed.

Then, when you need to throw a non-throwing weapon, you end up using two hands because it's the only way to get the momentum needed to toss a non-throwing weapon.

The _only_ exception that I can think of is a net... but A) they don't do any damage and B) nothing states in the rules that they're specifically one-handed or two-handed (and historically you can use both depending on the type of net you use).
yuenglingdragon
04-06-06, 02:06 PM I'm goin to agree that you don't recieve the 1.5 Str bonus for throwing a two handed weapon.

Take for example the Power Throw feat from CAdv. On your round before making an attack, you may choose a number X to subtract from all thrown weapon attacks and add it to your damage until your next round. The number X may be no more than your base
attack bonus.
Nothing there about getting 2x for throwing a two handed weapon. Likewise, it doesn't mention anything about Str modifiers in the Throw Anything feat. Not gonna happen, guys.
Raven Dark
04-06-06, 04:53 PM I have just E-mailed "Ask Wizards" on the matter. With any luck, the rules will be clarified for all of us in due time.
Nom
04-06-06, 08:14 PM Do you all know something (in the game rules) about the spear that I don't?I have no idea, since I'm not specifically familiar with what you know.

That said, the spear is listed on PH pg 113 in the list of thrown weapons, and that paragraph explicitly says that you apply Str mod to damage. The "one-handed throw" is an assumption, based on (1) the fact that every other weapon in the list is thrown one-handed (2) the rules don't say you need two hands to throw it and (3) every spear I've ever seen thrown - regardless of size - is thrown one-handed.

Rules for using two hands on a weapon are found on PH pg 113 in the following sections:
* double weapons
* projectile weapons
* two-handed melee weapons (where the 1.5 Str bonus is explicitly stated to apply to melee attacks)
* one-handed melee weapons (Str bonus as above)
* weapon size (various rules)

Under the rules improvised thrown weapons it does make mention of throwing a non-throwable two-handed melee weapon, but doesn't actually say how many hands are required to do so (2 is a reasonable assumption).
Daiben
04-10-06, 03:29 PM from a real life point of view a two handed throw would actually result in less power than a one handed one simply due to the body mechanics of throwing. The only exception is when the object is too heavy to be thrown one handed effictively (eg a boulder) and in that case the damage would mainly be generated by the weight of the object itself and not primarily from the power of the throw.
tarkin
04-10-06, 03:35 PM You can't throw something too heavy to lift. And when you throw it, all the energy comes from your strength, none from the weight. Dropping/Pushing/Dragging might be able to get energy from the weight, but not the strength.

What I think you meant was "for a heavier object most of the damage comes from the weight, not the speed, but it still is limited directly by your strength".

Also note, for throwing two handed items not designed to be throw, it takes a full round action.
Moribund
04-10-06, 06:33 PM Though it's location in a paragraph about using weapons not intended to be thrown might indicate otherwise, the phrase "throwing a two-handed weapon is a full round action" would seem apply to all thrown weapons (including spears).

Really the PHB should be clearer on these things.
pres_man
04-10-06, 07:46 PM I wonder how effective you could be at throwing a large spear one handed, if your other arm was strapped to your body and couldn't move. Personally I think a spear is thrown with one hand (arm), but both hands (arms) are used when throwning. One to actually do the throwing and the other to do the "guiding" and counter-balancing.
jaelis
04-10-06, 08:33 PM I wonder how effective you could be at throwing a large spear one handed, if your other arm was strapped to your body and couldn't move. Personally I think a spear is thrown with one hand (arm), but both hands (arms) are used when throwning. One to actually do the throwing and the other to do the "guiding" and counter-balancing.

This is how I interpret it as well. Even so, it is a two-handed weapon.
Nom
04-10-06, 11:05 PM Though it's location in a paragraph about using weapons not intended to be thrown might indicate otherwise, the phrase "throwing a two-handed weapon is a full round action" would seem apply to all thrown weapons (including spears).

Really the PHB should be clearer on these things.Short of putting the title "throwing improvised weapons" on the paragraph, I'm not sure how it could be clearer. Standard English rules: new paragraph = new thought. If you change the topic at the start of the paragraph - "It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown ..." - then the entirity of the paragraph refers to the new topic.*

Note that the SRD renderings of this are misleading, since they typically don't include that paragraph break. Even so, the categories of light, one-handed and two-handed are explicitly described for melee weapons, not thrown or projectile weapons.

* A good example of this done wrong is the ranged touch attack rules on PH pg 141. They are introduced half-way through a paragraph that starts on the topic of threatening with melee touch attacks. This makes it very difficult to figure the scope of the ranged touch rules.
I wonder how effective you could be at throwing a large spear one handed, if your other arm was strapped to your body and couldn't move. Personally I think a spear is thrown with one hand (arm), but both hands (arms) are used when throwning. One to actually do the throwing and the other to do the "guiding" and counter-balancing.This is totally correct. However, it's also totally correct for almost any other thrown object. Very few objects are thrown solely with the arm. Sporting darts may count, as you're trying for precision rather than power. So might marbles.

Although it's probably more accurate to say that the off-arm is used for aim. The power normally comes from rotation of the torso, which is driven by the off-shoulder rather than off-arm.

Note that there are objects that are designed to be thrown two-handed. However, all such objects are designed to be thrown using a spinning motion; the sport of hammer throwing is a good example. Most objects use a horizontal spin, but it is possible to use a two-handed overhead throw (eg a large axe or boulder). A lifting throw, such as that used to toss a caber, can't really be considered throwing in this context. Throwing a spear two-handed won't work properly, since the only rotation you want on a spear is along its long axis (like a sporting javelin), if that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
00_Whupass 04-05-06, 06:10 PM	When throwing a two handed throwing weapon like a harpoon do you apply Str modifier(x1) like other thrown weapons, or do you add Str modifier(x2) since its two handed. I know you do not get the double return for two handed weapons on Power Throw that you do on Power attack, which causes me to believe that str is only applied once on throw weapons regardless of the number of hands used, but what do you think?
Droken 04-05-06, 06:32 PM	I can think of very few weapons that would be thrown with two hands. A harpoon for instance, although wielded with two hands, would be thrown in one like a javalin. So I think the rule of thumb would be just normal strength bonus.
SlowFall 04-05-06, 07:21 PM	Throws greataxe over head with two hands. I can throw things with two hands. Two hands are stronger than one, therefore it should do more damage.
jaelis 04-05-06, 07:34 PM	You never get 1.5 x Str with a thrown weapon. It specifies that clearly in the Weapons section: Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). And when it talks about 2H weapons, it is clearly that you only get 1.5 x damage for melee weapons: Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
Tony Vargas 04-05-06, 07:55 PM	Same goes for power attack - melee only. 3.0 was very clear about two-handed throwing weapons, like the spear. You didn't need two hands to throw them, just one, but doing so was a full-round action. 3.5 has some of the same language, but it's burried in a paragraph about improvised throwing weapons.
Nom 04-05-06, 09:01 PM	There are no specific rules for throwing weapons two-handed. The thrown weapon rules specify that you apply your Str modifier to damage with (non-splash) thrown weapons (PH pg 113, 134). The light, one-handed and two-handed classifications only apply to melee weapons (PH pg 113). It is possible to throw a light, one-handed or even two-handed melee weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (ie no range increment). All such attacks suffer a -4 attack penalty. The weapon deals normal damage but with 20/x2 crit, at a range increment of 10 feet (PH pg 113). The rules don't suggest that you use a non-standard Str mod, suggesting that the weapon is still treated as if throwing a one-handed weapon. Improvised throwing of a 2-handed melee weapon is a full-round action. Spears are designed to be thrown and use the normal thrown weapon rules.
Tony111 04-05-06, 10:38 PM	I believe that stone giants can throw stones two-handed, and they add 1.5 strength when donig so. -Tony
Raven Dark 04-05-06, 10:52 PM	You never get 1.5 x Str with a thrown weapon. It specifies that clearly in the Weapons section: And when it talks about 2H weapons, it is clearly that you only get 1.5 x damage for melee weapons: That's balogny, Jaelis. It is also an over-generalization of the rules. The quote you provided lists only one-handed weapons and thus does not take into account the possibility that they could be thrown two-handed. You do get x1.5 strength on damage if you throw a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon with two hands. It may look funny (it really isn't all that unbelievable, really), but it is allowed per the rules. The giants and their boulders cited earlier are a good example of one case in which this is true.
Ashok_Lal 04-06-06, 12:15 AM	All thrown weapons only get .5 damage
Raven Dark 04-06-06, 12:33 AM	All thrown weapons only get .5 damage Maybe you could quote us a source instead of throwing in such questionable statements out of the blue?
Nom 04-06-06, 02:06 AM	The giants and their boulders cited earlier are a good example of one case in which this is true.Not all giants, just "stone giants". One monster which is specifically called out as unusual certainly constitutes an exception, but not necessarily a precedent. Also note that such a rock is not an improvised weapon. There is no PH non-improvised weapon that is thrown with two hands.
Tony111 04-06-06, 12:55 PM	On a (somewhat similar) note, what happens if I cast whirling blade while using a two-handed weapon? Can I get 1.5 my charisma or intelligence to damage? -Tony
jaelis 04-06-06, 01:15 PM	That's balogny, Jaelis. It is also an over-generalization of the rules. The quote you provided lists only one-handed weapons and thus does not take into account the possibility that they could be thrown two-handed. You do get x1.5 strength on damage if you throw a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon with two hands. It may look funny (it really isn't all that unbelievable, really), but it is allowed per the rules. The giants and their boulders cited earlier are a good example of one case in which this is true. I like balogna just fine on a sandwich, but I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The list in the quote includes the spear which is certainly two-handed. Regardless, it makes a blanket statement about thrown weapons that nominally applies to all of them. If there is an exception written somewhere else, then that is fine, but as I also quoted, the 1.5 Str rules explicitly applies only to melee weapons. I don't see how you can argue that this is not what the rules say. There is no PH non-improvised weapon that is thrown with two hands. Do you all know something (in the game rules) about the spear that I don't?
bondious 04-06-06, 01:28 PM	Maybe a feat is in order, here. We could call it "Two-Handed Throw" which would enable the character to throw a weapon with two hands, to take advantage of the x1.5 Str. modifier. I would stipulate that the throw would take a standard action, so only one throw per round. :D I agree, though, that MOST weapons are thrown in one hand, and to try throwing with two hands for MOST weapons would be rather clumbsy. I think of the exceptions, like when you see someone throw his sword or axe with two hands, above his head, but I'm thinking that's more to steady the weapon and line up the throw more than trying to gain more power to the attack. That's just me, though.
Dalthbar 04-06-06, 01:36 PM	When I think about throwing weapons, it seems that all weapons that are designed to be thrown are thrown one-handed. Then, when you need to throw a non-throwing weapon, you end up using two hands because it's the only way to get the momentum needed to toss a non-throwing weapon. The _only_ exception that I can think of is a net... but A) they don't do any damage and B) nothing states in the rules that they're specifically one-handed or two-handed (and historically you can use both depending on the type of net you use).
yuenglingdragon 04-06-06, 02:06 PM	I'm goin to agree that you don't recieve the 1.5 Str bonus for throwing a two handed weapon. Take for example the Power Throw feat from CAdv. On your round before making an attack, you may choose a number X to subtract from all thrown weapon attacks and add it to your damage until your next round. The number X may be no more than your base attack bonus. Nothing there about getting 2x for throwing a two handed weapon. Likewise, it doesn't mention anything about Str modifiers in the Throw Anything feat. Not gonna happen, guys.
Raven Dark 04-06-06, 04:53 PM	I have just E-mailed "Ask Wizards" on the matter. With any luck, the rules will be clarified for all of us in due time.
Nom 04-06-06, 08:14 PM	Do you all know something (in the game rules) about the spear that I don't?I have no idea, since I'm not specifically familiar with what you know. That said, the spear is listed on PH pg 113 in the list of thrown weapons, and that paragraph explicitly says that you apply Str mod to damage. The "one-handed throw" is an assumption, based on (1) the fact that every other weapon in the list is thrown one-handed (2) the rules don't say you need two hands to throw it and (3) every spear I've ever seen thrown - regardless of size - is thrown one-handed. Rules for using two hands on a weapon are found on PH pg 113 in the following sections: * double weapons * projectile weapons * two-handed melee weapons (where the 1.5 Str bonus is explicitly stated to apply to melee attacks) * one-handed melee weapons (Str bonus as above) * weapon size (various rules) Under the rules improvised thrown weapons it does make mention of throwing a non-throwable two-handed melee weapon, but doesn't actually say how many hands are required to do so (2 is a reasonable assumption).
Daiben 04-10-06, 03:29 PM	from a real life point of view a two handed throw would actually result in less power than a one handed one simply due to the body mechanics of throwing. The only exception is when the object is too heavy to be thrown one handed effictively (eg a boulder) and in that case the damage would mainly be generated by the weight of the object itself and not primarily from the power of the throw.
tarkin 04-10-06, 03:35 PM	You can't throw something too heavy to lift. And when you throw it, all the energy comes from your strength, none from the weight. Dropping/Pushing/Dragging might be able to get energy from the weight, but not the strength. What I think you meant was "for a heavier object most of the damage comes from the weight, not the speed, but it still is limited directly by your strength". Also note, for throwing two handed items not designed to be throw, it takes a full round action.
Moribund 04-10-06, 06:33 PM	Though it's location in a paragraph about using weapons not intended to be thrown might indicate otherwise, the phrase "throwing a two-handed weapon is a full round action" would seem apply to all thrown weapons (including spears). Really the PHB should be clearer on these things.
pres_man 04-10-06, 07:46 PM	I wonder how effective you could be at throwing a large spear one handed, if your other arm was strapped to your body and couldn't move. Personally I think a spear is thrown with one hand (arm), but both hands (arms) are used when throwning. One to actually do the throwing and the other to do the "guiding" and counter-balancing.
jaelis 04-10-06, 08:33 PM	I wonder how effective you could be at throwing a large spear one handed, if your other arm was strapped to your body and couldn't move. Personally I think a spear is thrown with one hand (arm), but both hands (arms) are used when throwning. One to actually do the throwing and the other to do the "guiding" and counter-balancing. This is how I interpret it as well. Even so, it is a two-handed weapon.
Nom 04-10-06, 11:05 PM	Though it's location in a paragraph about using weapons not intended to be thrown might indicate otherwise, the phrase "throwing a two-handed weapon is a full round action" would seem apply to all thrown weapons (including spears). Really the PHB should be clearer on these things.Short of putting the title "throwing improvised weapons" on the paragraph, I'm not sure how it could be clearer. Standard English rules: new paragraph = new thought. If you change the topic at the start of the paragraph - "It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown ..." - then the entirity of the paragraph refers to the new topic.* Note that the SRD renderings of this are misleading, since they typically don't include that paragraph break. Even so, the categories of light, one-handed and two-handed are explicitly described for melee weapons, not thrown or projectile weapons. * A good example of this done wrong is the ranged touch attack rules on PH pg 141. They are introduced half-way through a paragraph that starts on the topic of threatening with melee touch attacks. This makes it very difficult to figure the scope of the ranged touch rules. I wonder how effective you could be at throwing a large spear one handed, if your other arm was strapped to your body and couldn't move. Personally I think a spear is thrown with one hand (arm), but both hands (arms) are used when throwning. One to actually do the throwing and the other to do the "guiding" and counter-balancing.This is totally correct. However, it's also totally correct for almost any other thrown object. Very few objects are thrown solely with the arm. Sporting darts may count, as you're trying for precision rather than power. So might marbles. Although it's probably more accurate to say that the off-arm is used for aim. The power normally comes from rotation of the torso, which is driven by the off-shoulder rather than off-arm. Note that there are objects that are designed to be thrown two-handed. However, all such objects are designed to be thrown using a spinning motion; the sport of hammer throwing is a good example. Most objects use a horizontal spin, but it is possible to use a two-handed overhead throw (eg a large axe or boulder). A lifting throw, such as that used to toss a caber, can't really be considered throwing in this context. Throwing a spear two-handed won't work properly, since the only rotation you want on a spear is along its long axis (like a sporting javelin), if that.