Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Imric 06-02-05, 08:49 AM	OK I have decided that Master Work weapons should have a higher bonus than just +1 soo.... Simple W +1MW and +2MW very rarely Martial W +1MW, +2MW rarely and +3MW very rarely Exotic W +1MW, +2MW, +3MW rarely by rarely i mean the same as a level 4 PC finding a +2 weapon of that kind and By very rarely i mean the same as finding a +3 weapon of that kind The reason im doing this is so that not all weapons (PC level 4+) are +1,+2,+3,+4,+5 magic, and so PC (level 2-6) can find weapons that are awsome and be able to use them without fear of getting it taken away by bigger bad guys. And so they have something else they can get in treasure chests and tresuare in general. This comes from the fact that "I think" some armorers can make very effective weapons without magic and some make the weapons better then others. Anyway would this screw up the rules too much? Also is there a weapon that does 1D6 damage, Crit 19-20/x2 and is Medium sized, (1 handed for Medium PC)? So not a short sword. Thanx in advance.
Dalthbar 06-02-05, 08:58 AM	The reason im doing this is so that not all weapons (PC level 4+) are +1,+2,+3,+4,+5 magic, and so PC (level 2-6) can find weapons that are awsome and be able to use them without fear of getting it taken away by bigger bad guys. And so they have something else they can get in treasure chests and tresuare in general. This comes from the fact that "I think" some armorers can make very effective weapons without magic and some make the weapons better then others. Anyway would this screw up the rules too much? Questions/Comments - 1) Armorers wouldn't make them, Weaponsmiths would make them. Armorers tend to make armor :) 2) If these are just as rare, then what is the big deal? Are these weapons you proposing only giving a bonus to hit and not a bonus to damage? (since normal MW weapons only give +1 to hit and not +1 to dmg) 3) What's the big deal if a PC has a +2 weapon vs a +2 MW weapon that's "not magical"? (aside from not getting +2 dmg) 4) How much are these weapons going to cost to make? The DMG lists the MW component for items. What's their market values? 5) The DM shouldn't put the PCs at odds with very strong bad guys that would take their stuff unless the DM wanted them to do so and have their stuff taken. If the PCs go out of their way to pick fights with people that are way more powerful than they are, then they get what they deserver - there are consequences to their actions. Otherwise, most times a character only gets looted when they're dead - which is another consequence to their actions. All-in-all, I just don't get it. If they're as rare as their magical counterparts, it shouldn't make a big deal. The only difference that I am guessing (since you didn't say it explicitly) is the lack of a damage bonus.
tarkin 06-02-05, 09:13 AM	I want to hear the answers to those questoins. In addition, I have some more for you. 6) When doing pricing think about what happens when they are made magical? I assume a +3 MW, +1 magical weapon is +3 to hit, +1 to damage. This is not a problem, but then the +3 MW, +1 flaming weapon becomes basically better than a straight +3 weapon. (To hit is +3, damage is +1+1d6, averaging +3 to hit/+4.5 to damage. As such, the thing should exceed 18,000 gp, and as the magic part costs 8,000 gp, that means a base +3 MW weapon should cost a minimum of 10,000 gp. But wait, compare a +3 MW, +1, Flaming, Shocking sword that is +3 to hit, and damage is +1+2d6 = +3/+8, which is clearly better than a +3 sword with flaming (+3 to hit, +6.5 damage), which means the +3 MW weapon with +1 flaming,shocking (value ,18,000 +3MW) is better than a +4 weapon, (32,000), [b]so now we now the +3 should cost at least 14,000 gp). And we have not even looked at the +3MW, +1 flaming, shocking,frost weapon yet, so I bet it should be even MORE expensive. 7) Does it increase the hitpoints/hardness of the weapon when it is made +3 instead of +1? 8) What kind of DC do they have to hit to make the +2/+3? Masterwork is a DC of 20 I believe. Would that be just a DC of 25 and 30? Or 30 and 40? 9) Do they need to make it from a special material? Or can they make a +3 Cold Iron weapon? 10) Can a +3 MW, +1 Defender sword apply the +3 to Defense? Or just the +1 from magic that was +1 to hit and damage? Also, if they can just apply the +1 from magic, would that mean the sword was still +3 to hit because of the masterwork?
Imric 06-02-05, 09:51 AM	1) I wrote Armorer because i was thinking how i could apply this to armor ;) 2) i was asking for an opinion also DR/magic, So its made of "real" Iron, no magic needed. 3) see 2. 4) Cost for a +2MW Longsword 300+600+15 = 915gp; Sword two-bladed +3MW is 100 +600 + 1200 +1800 = 3900 gp [+1MW = 300; +2MW =600; +3MW = 900] 5) I am an evil DM... and PC like to pick fights, but mostly I'm an Evil DM 6)OK but u cant have a +3MW sword that also has flaming, its either MW or Magic but not both. Of course it would be alot cheaper to make a +3MW into a +2 Flaming than a +1MW into a +2 Flaming. But otherwise No stacking. Not sure about how much cheaper. So in other words changing it from +3MW to a +1 just means it would be cheaper to "improve" it, than to "improve" a +1MW to a +1, maybe I should also make it take the process quicker. Just Remember they are VERY RARE. or just rare... which is still RARE! 7)No 8) +2 is DC 30 and +3 is DC 40 9) just plain old Iron, 10) See 6, NO stacking Basically it works exactly like a MW weapon unless mentioned above.
Imric 06-02-05, 09:58 AM	By rare I also mean you wont see other Bad guys and Monsters running around with them. Also this is in a very low magic game. Which also has pretty much no magic items. By low i mean Level 3 Wizard has 10 Spells, total available to him and same level druid has 7.
Dalthbar 06-02-05, 10:09 AM	I guess that all largely works, but I still don't get it :) (well, let me say that I -understand- what you're saying, but I don't feel that it is necessary) Why not just make magical weapons/armor rare and give out standard MW weapons/armor instead of making "super MW items"? Most of the point of MW items was that they were effectively the highest quality that you could make something short of making them magical. (and it's this reason why you need a MW item to enchant) Besides, if a "super MW item" is as rare or very rare as you say it is, a bad guy will be just as prone to take those items as they would a magical item for any of the following reasons: 1) they're bad, and thus like to F with the PCs. they'd likely take mundane weapons to be jerks. 2) the items are rare and very rare - why not have access to these themselves? 3) even if they can't use them, they'd likely get a lot of GP for them! Again, I understand what you're getting at, I just don't think there's a need to suppliment the rules in order to achieve it. If you don't want magical items in the game in any large quantity, then don't add them. Just use normal MW items and be done with it.
tarkin 06-02-05, 11:55 AM	Your pricing is still off. you are basically using an additive method, not an exponential method, and that is the problem. I would FAR rather have a +3 MW weapon that costs a measily 915 gp than a +2 magical weapon that costs 8,000 gp. For proof, think of Power Attack for -1, that makes your +3 weapon +2/+2, the same power level as a +2 magic weapon, and it works in anti-magic field. Big deal it doesn't counter DR/Magic. (note this is not a "so we don't let them power attack thing - I am using Power Attack to demonstrate that +3 is WAY too good, not that +3 with power attack is too good) Even not allowing people to make a +3 MW weapon magical, it's value is a minimum of 3,000 gp. 9,000 seems more reasonable to me, as a +3 magic weapon costs 18,300 gp, and the bonus to hit is worth far MORE than the bonus to damage and it also works in antimagic zone. I would do the pricing as follows: +1 MW 300 gp +2 MW 1,650 gp +3 MW 9,000 gp --------- Pricing it as low as as 900 gp for a +3 to hit is going to cause huge problems because it is quite literally 1/10 as cheap. Also, I now have a better understanding of why WoTC has not made up rules forMW > +1 items.
Imric 06-02-05, 06:27 PM	[+1MW = 300; +2MW =600; +3MW = 900] crap that ment to read [+1MW = 300; +2MW =900; +3MW = 1800] sorry for confusion Pricing it as low as as 900 gp for a +3 to hit is going to cause huge problems because it is quite literally 1/10 as cheap. I see your point, but how often do go into an anti-magic field? So i might make the +3MW = 2700gp
Dalthbar 06-02-05, 09:07 PM	I see your point, but how often do go into an anti-magic field? So i might make the +3MW = 2700gp Well, if you never fight undead, an undead bane weapon still has that +1 ability on it and should have the same cost as a flaming weapon. The point isn't "this ability is less effective because in my campaign we don't do that", it's "this ability is price according to how powerful it is - regardless of how frequently the DM creates a situation in which you will use it".
Vahenir 06-02-05, 09:49 PM	I mentioned this in another thread, but it bears repeating: Black Company Campaign Setting by Green Ronin Publishing. It's basically already taken what you wanted by adding in levels of masterwork. So not all weapons are just 'a high quality weapon' - but rather have different features depending on what they were made to do. A weapon might have a better Threat Range, or deals an extra point of damage.. things like that. If I recall correctly (don't feel like grabbing the book) there are six levels of Masterwork quality - and plenty of add-on abilities for those levels of Masterwork. It's basically already done what you are currently trying to do, for the d20 system no less. See if you can flip through it at your local gaming shop.
Beamup 06-03-05, 09:09 AM	The fundamental issue with having a Masterwork system that does the same thing as magical enhancements is balance. If it provides more or less benefit for the same price, it's unbalanced. If it provides the same benefit at the same price, then it's identical and there's no point to having it. The main ways to have something that's really workable are: - Have it be virtually identical to magical enhancements. Effectively, you rename magical +'s to being mundane masterwork effects, but they mechanically work the same way and cost the same amount. - Make it do something fundamentally different from magical enhancements. The system Vahenir describes sounds like it falls into this category.