2 scimitars [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 scimitars [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
21st_Gunslinger
11-09-04, 12:57 AM hey there, first post.
I dm, and I have come across a ROLL player- sorry to those who hate the term.

ONe player wants to dual wield scimitars, fair enough, he is ranger/fighter and come up with a VERY good story behind it. So he has the improved crit feat and is on the look out for a Keen scimitar of any kind, for his off hand.

The scimitar is not a light weapon, so incurs the penalty, but with the keen and imrpoved crit, he is excited of rolling criticals at outlandishly low numbers if i get the ruling right of 3 number doubled = 15-20 12-20. btw (is that right)

the reason he is excited is that even though he has a penalty, he is under the impression that a 'natural 12-20' is equal to a critical hit, and no penalty would reduce take that way.

Correct, Wrong or DM fudge rule?

apologies for any offense
Salla
11-09-04, 01:08 AM A few things ...

If you're playing 3.5, Improved Critical and Keen don't stack. If you are stacking Improved Crit and Keen, then yes, 12-20 is the correct number. the 3.0 Weapons Master has a special ability that adds 2 to this number, so you could threaten a crit on a 10-20. However, since a scimitar is not a light weapon, he'll be taking a -4/-4 to hit.

If he does roll a 12-20, and the result DOES HIT, then it is a threat. Let's say his total attack adjustment, counting those penalties, is +3. If he rolls a natural 13, his total is 16 ... however, if the target's AC is 17 or higher, he still misses. A critical threat is not necessarily an automatic hit.

This means that, less than half the time, he'll do 2d6 damage ... which he could do EVERY ROUND if he used a greatsword, without taking a -4 penalty for dual wielding.

He'll be critting a lot, but his damage outlay won't be as good as if he were using a Greatsword, because he won't be anywhere near as accurate, AND he'll do less damage on average.
rinagar
11-09-04, 01:11 AM Well, remember that a critical hit is NOT the same as an automatic hit. I believe the scimitar guy is right about the large critical threat range he's got, but only a natural 20 is an automatic hit. If he rolls a 12 and it doesn't hit the AC of his target (which he will have a harder time with since he's taking penalties to the rolls), it's NOT a hit, critical or otherwise. Also he still has to roll the second roll to confirm the critical, which must also hit the AC regardless of the wide critical threat range...

And if you still find it frustrating, start bringing out the undead, oozes and constructs which don't suffer from critical hits...
21st_Gunslinger
11-09-04, 01:48 AM Many thanks.

Yeah we playing v3 cos not everyone has got 3.5 yet...... rrrrrrrr, including myself.......... thats good to know that its only a 20 thats auto hit, i just presumed it was a crit..... fantastic many thanks.
Salla
11-09-04, 01:57 AM No problem. I, personally, let Improved Critical and Keen stack even in 3.5 ... past a certain point, as this example demonstrates, the extra numbers are just wasted potential.
darczero
11-09-04, 02:50 AM As it's been demonstrated (mostly on the CO board):
Keen: Double
Improved Critical: Double
Ki Critical: +2
Iron Power: +3
Total on Scimitar: 7-20/x2
Using 3rd party material: 5-20/x2 or 3-20/x3
Chance to Hit: -4/-4, -2/-2 with Dervish, -0/-0 with 9 levels of Tempest
Using all the proper stacking, that build does indeed get sick, but it requires a generous DM (for the 3rd party material) and many levels of advancement: Tempest requires BAB 9 to qualify, and several feats (TWF, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus/Finesse); Weapon Master requires 6 feats to qualify, and the bonus to threat range is gained at level 7; Disciple of Dispater also requires a few feats, including a Vile feat or two; Dervish also requires ranks in Dance (the other requirements are completely overriden by Weapon Master). By my count, even with Fighter levels, that's level 10 Fighter (to get all the combat feats out of the way), and 25 levels of PrC (1 Dervish, 7 WM, 9 Tempest, 8 Disciple of Dispater; may be off on Disciple). Even without the 3rd party material, by the levels necessary to achieve all/most of this, any Scimitar wielder had better be a blender anyway.
Bluebrush
11-09-04, 05:39 AM If he wants dual scimitar action, take a look at Eberron's Equipment section for the Valenar Double Scimitar. Costs a bit more and he'll need a feat but you get what you pay for.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
21st_Gunslinger 11-09-04, 12:57 AM	hey there, first post. I dm, and I have come across a ROLL player- sorry to those who hate the term. ONe player wants to dual wield scimitars, fair enough, he is ranger/fighter and come up with a VERY good story behind it. So he has the improved crit feat and is on the look out for a Keen scimitar of any kind, for his off hand. The scimitar is not a light weapon, so incurs the penalty, but with the keen and imrpoved crit, he is excited of rolling criticals at outlandishly low numbers if i get the ruling right of 3 number doubled = 15-20 12-20. btw (is that right) the reason he is excited is that even though he has a penalty, he is under the impression that a 'natural 12-20' is equal to a critical hit, and no penalty would reduce take that way. Correct, Wrong or DM fudge rule? apologies for any offense
Salla 11-09-04, 01:08 AM	A few things ... If you're playing 3.5, Improved Critical and Keen don't stack. If you are stacking Improved Crit and Keen, then yes, 12-20 is the correct number. the 3.0 Weapons Master has a special ability that adds 2 to this number, so you could threaten a crit on a 10-20. However, since a scimitar is not a light weapon, he'll be taking a -4/-4 to hit. If he does roll a 12-20, and the result DOES HIT, then it is a threat. Let's say his total attack adjustment, counting those penalties, is +3. If he rolls a natural 13, his total is 16 ... however, if the target's AC is 17 or higher, he still misses. A critical threat is not necessarily an automatic hit. This means that, less than half the time, he'll do 2d6 damage ... which he could do EVERY ROUND if he used a greatsword, without taking a -4 penalty for dual wielding. He'll be critting a lot, but his damage outlay won't be as good as if he were using a Greatsword, because he won't be anywhere near as accurate, AND he'll do less damage on average.
rinagar 11-09-04, 01:11 AM	Well, remember that a critical hit is NOT the same as an automatic hit. I believe the scimitar guy is right about the large critical threat range he's got, but only a natural 20 is an automatic hit. If he rolls a 12 and it doesn't hit the AC of his target (which he will have a harder time with since he's taking penalties to the rolls), it's NOT a hit, critical or otherwise. Also he still has to roll the second roll to confirm the critical, which must also hit the AC regardless of the wide critical threat range... And if you still find it frustrating, start bringing out the undead, oozes and constructs which don't suffer from critical hits...
21st_Gunslinger 11-09-04, 01:48 AM	Many thanks. Yeah we playing v3 cos not everyone has got 3.5 yet...... rrrrrrrr, including myself.......... thats good to know that its only a 20 thats auto hit, i just presumed it was a crit..... fantastic many thanks.
Salla 11-09-04, 01:57 AM	No problem. I, personally, let Improved Critical and Keen stack even in 3.5 ... past a certain point, as this example demonstrates, the extra numbers are just wasted potential.
darczero 11-09-04, 02:50 AM	As it's been demonstrated (mostly on the CO board): Keen: Double Improved Critical: Double Ki Critical: +2 Iron Power: +3 Total on Scimitar: 7-20/x2 Using 3rd party material: 5-20/x2 or 3-20/x3 Chance to Hit: -4/-4, -2/-2 with Dervish, -0/-0 with 9 levels of Tempest Using all the proper stacking, that build does indeed get sick, but it requires a generous DM (for the 3rd party material) and many levels of advancement: Tempest requires BAB 9 to qualify, and several feats (TWF, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus/Finesse); Weapon Master requires 6 feats to qualify, and the bonus to threat range is gained at level 7; Disciple of Dispater also requires a few feats, including a Vile feat or two; Dervish also requires ranks in Dance (the other requirements are completely overriden by Weapon Master). By my count, even with Fighter levels, that's level 10 Fighter (to get all the combat feats out of the way), and 25 levels of PrC (1 Dervish, 7 WM, 9 Tempest, 8 Disciple of Dispater; may be off on Disciple). Even without the 3rd party material, by the levels necessary to achieve all/most of this, any Scimitar wielder had better be a blender anyway.
Bluebrush 11-09-04, 05:39 AM	If he wants dual scimitar action, take a look at Eberron's Equipment section for the Valenar Double Scimitar. Costs a bit more and he'll need a feat but you get what you pay for.