2 shields? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

2 shields? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cptevil
12-13-07, 12:13 AM can you equip 2 shields to make a nice tank?
and does shield bashing make you loose the shields AC?
(same question for disarm/sunder)
sapient
12-13-07, 01:14 AM Well, you could. But having two shields doesn't improve the shield bonus any further. (Shield bonuses from two shields doesn't stack with each other.)

A shield bonus improves Armor Class and is granted by a shield or by a spell or magic effect that mimics a shield. Shield bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other shield bonuses. A magic shield typically grants an enhancement bonus to the shield's shield bonus, which has the effect of increasing the shield's overall bonus to AC. A shield bonus granted by a spell or magic item typically takes the form of an invisible, tangible field of force that protects the recipient. A shield bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.

(Emphasis added.)

So you would exchange the possibility to wield a useful weapon for a quite crappy (damagewise) shield bash.

And yes, using the shield to bash makes you give up the shield bonus to AC:
If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round).

However there is a feat (right now I don't remember the name or source) that will let you retain the shield bonus even while bashing with it.
risner
12-13-07, 01:30 AM can you equip 2 shields to make a nice tank?
and does shield bashing make you loose the shields AC?
(same question for disarm/sunder)

If you have 2 shields, you obviously don't gain anything AC wise from having two shields.

You lose the AC of the shield you attack with each round.
If you attack with both, you lose all the shield ac.
If you attack with one but not the other, you keep the ac of the other.
cptevil
12-13-07, 01:32 AM thanks guys i am looking for a unique way to build my fighter but i only have the players hand book

wana give cool tips?
Sutemi
12-13-07, 01:40 AM thanks guys i am looking for a unique way to build my fighter but i only have the players hand book

wana give cool tips?

Just create the 2 shield character. You can equip two shields, because of two simple reasons:
a. You can fit them to your arms
b. Your character doesn't know the D&D-rules, so he thinks that having two shields will give him extra bonus if he wants to believe so.
InkBlot
12-13-07, 03:23 AM The D&D rules represent things that the character can percieve. If your fighter character used two shields, then he would quickly notice that two shields don't protect him better than one.

With just the Player's Handbook, shield bashing isn't a particularly good option. It's not the worst, but I wouldn't recommend it. However, there are feats and abilities in Complete Warrior, Player's Handbook II, and Tome Of Battle* which make the shield a unique and effective weapon.

*The options from Tome Of Battle are designed to make choice of weapon have less impact on how much damage you deal, and to give fighters more options in combat besides just how much to Power Attack for.
Sutemi
12-13-07, 03:35 AM The D&D rules represent things that the character can percieve. If your fighter character used two shields, then he would quickly notice that two shields don't protect him better than one.

Actually +1 bonus to AC is very difficult to notice, atleast for a inexperienced character.

If, for instance, the character would be in the receiving end of volley of missiles and survive because everyone rolled a little bit bad attack rolls, the character (depending on attitude and intelligence) could in the future rely on two shield - maybe forever.
InkBlot
12-13-07, 04:03 AM I'll grant that a stupid fighter (hardly rare) with nonmagical small shields might not notice. But with heavy shields and magical shields, the difference increases rapidly, making chance a smaller factor, and the inefficiency more self-evident. Anybody with at least an average intelligence, wielding two +1 heavy shields, can notice that there's a difference between the expected protection (+6 AC) and the actual protection (+3 AC).

If there's a character in the party with at least a 16 Int (which would qualify him or her for Mensa membership in the real world), then that person should be able to point out to the fighter that the second shield isn't helping, after watching him fight a couple times. Wizards with Int scores over 18 are smarter than anybody you or I are likely to know.

But my real objection was only to the idea that the game's rules don't reflect the setting our characters are in. They certainly do. A few don't, action points for example, but the vast majority do in some way. There's a common misconception, that to roleplay properly you must ignore what the rules say about your character. If that's not your assertion, then I'm sorry being a little harsh.
CryoSilver
12-13-07, 02:44 PM One advantage may be holding a +5 Heavy shield on one arm, and getting +7 AC, and a +1 light shield on the other arm for no AC bonus, but loaded up with other powers (Bashing, Blinding, etc).
Goof
12-13-07, 04:16 PM If you have 2 shields, you obviously don't gain anything AC wise from having two shields.

How is that obvious when in the real world that is not the case?

If I didn't know the rule I would allow some of the bonus to stack and maybe give bonuses for going all defensive, but then also giving other people attacks of opportunities. In fact even knowing the rule, I would do a house rule to over ride it. (partly because dnd gimped shield use big time, real world shield use blocks 90% of the shots, hell it takes away 60% of the target without even moving it)

But I wouldn’t allow spells with shield to stack the same way.

Just another rule that’s says X, while the real world says Y.

Eh, sorry for the rant ;)
CryoSilver
12-13-07, 04:17 PM "In the real world"?

Show me empirical evidence of someone using two shields "in the real world."
InkBlot
12-13-07, 05:03 PM One advantage may be holding a +5 Heavy shield on one arm, and getting +7 AC, and a +1 light shield on the other arm for no AC bonus, but loaded up with other powers (Bashing, Blinding, etc).

That's very true.

It's cheaper to do it that way. One +10 equivalent shield costs 100,000gp. Two +5 equivalent shields cost 50,000gp. Half price!
rambaldi
12-13-07, 05:41 PM I thought the two shield rule was there to stop people having a dancing shield as well as a standard shield, personally i would rule two shields on your arms stack but one for only half
Goof
12-13-07, 06:40 PM "In the real world"?

Show me empirical evidence of someone using two shields "in the real world."

Real world a shield is the best armor you can have. I can have one on my back and the one I am actively using. I may even use two shields actively (blocking for me, and for the long spearman I am running with.

I do SCA fighting (both Heavy and Rapier) You will rarely see two shield use because we need to kill the other person(like in a tournament). That doesn’t mean I wont use two shields messing around during training. Or that it doesn’t provide me more cover, or hell, just having a blocking instrument in my main hand.

And we don’t need a 2nd shield because we can effectively not get hit behind using one. Because a shield is a lot more than just +1 or +2 armor. If dnd reflected real world should it would be more like ½ your BAB rounded up + cover (20% small, 50% large).

My point was dnd shield rules are broken in contrast to real world. I know this based on experience and it is easy enough to test against in the back yard. (the people I play dnd with are also fighters, two of them renowned) So it is easy for us to have a house rule like this. (based on situations)

Such as, they are getting shot from with arrows, can I hold up two shields while only doing move actions towards them for total cover, etc.
Snosnake
12-13-07, 08:48 PM Could you have a special set of Heavy shields made up that interlocked top to bottom to give you a tower shield when needed? Normally they would be just the +2 AC but putting them together that way would give +4 or cover as a tower shield. Don't even need to make new rules for it other than allowing one to create a tower shield out of 2 heavy shields.

Anyone else think this would work as a reasonable idea for the duel shield bearer?
Sutemi
12-14-07, 01:09 AM I'll grant that a stupid fighter (hardly rare) with nonmagical small shields might not notice. But with heavy shields and magical shields, the difference increases rapidly, making chance a smaller factor, and the inefficiency more self-evident. Anybody with at least an average intelligence, wielding two +1 heavy shields, can notice that there's a difference between the expected protection (+6 AC) and the actual protection (+3 AC).

If there's a character in the party with at least a 16 Int (which would qualify him or her for Mensa membership in the real world), then that person should be able to point out to the fighter that the second shield isn't helping, after watching him fight a couple times. Wizards with Int scores over 18 are smarter than anybody you or I are likely to know.

But my real objection was only to the idea that the game's rules don't reflect the setting our characters are in. They certainly do. A few don't, action points for example, but the vast majority do in some way. There's a common misconception, that to roleplay properly you must ignore what the rules say about your character. If that's not your assertion, then I'm sorry being a little harsh.

Yes, like I said, +1 difference in AC in unnoticeable depending on stubborness/stupidness of fighter, but +2 AC or more is not.

So we agree on everything, but one thing:
Fighters don't listen to smart-a$$ wizards, 'coz they are only jealous of their skillzzz ;)
InkBlot
12-14-07, 12:06 PM Could you have a special set of Heavy shields made up that interlocked top to bottom to give you a tower shield when needed? Normally they would be just the +2 AC but putting them together that way would give +4 or cover as a tower shield. Don't even need to make new rules for it other than allowing one to create a tower shield out of 2 heavy shields.

You can do anything in D&D, so long as the other players agree that it's fair enough. That sounds like a pretty cool magic item. However, unless it still takes up two hands in tower-shield form, you're going to need to come up with rules for how to enchant it, and how those enchantments combine when the two shields are linked.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cptevil 12-13-07, 12:13 AM	can you equip 2 shields to make a nice tank? and does shield bashing make you loose the shields AC? (same question for disarm/sunder)
sapient 12-13-07, 01:14 AM	Well, you could. But having two shields doesn't improve the shield bonus any further. (Shield bonuses from two shields doesn't stack with each other.) A shield bonus improves Armor Class and is granted by a shield or by a spell or magic effect that mimics a shield. Shield bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other shield bonuses. A magic shield typically grants an enhancement bonus to the shield's shield bonus, which has the effect of increasing the shield's overall bonus to AC. A shield bonus granted by a spell or magic item typically takes the form of an invisible, tangible field of force that protects the recipient. A shield bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks. (Emphasis added.) So you would exchange the possibility to wield a useful weapon for a quite crappy (damagewise) shield bash. And yes, using the shield to bash makes you give up the shield bonus to AC: If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). However there is a feat (right now I don't remember the name or source) that will let you retain the shield bonus even while bashing with it.
risner 12-13-07, 01:30 AM	can you equip 2 shields to make a nice tank? and does shield bashing make you loose the shields AC? (same question for disarm/sunder) If you have 2 shields, you obviously don't gain anything AC wise from having two shields. You lose the AC of the shield you attack with each round. If you attack with both, you lose all the shield ac. If you attack with one but not the other, you keep the ac of the other.
cptevil 12-13-07, 01:32 AM	thanks guys i am looking for a unique way to build my fighter but i only have the players hand book wana give cool tips?
Sutemi 12-13-07, 01:40 AM	thanks guys i am looking for a unique way to build my fighter but i only have the players hand book wana give cool tips? Just create the 2 shield character. You can equip two shields, because of two simple reasons: a. You can fit them to your arms b. Your character doesn't know the D&D-rules, so he thinks that having two shields will give him extra bonus if he wants to believe so.
InkBlot 12-13-07, 03:23 AM	The D&D rules represent things that the character can percieve. If your fighter character used two shields, then he would quickly notice that two shields don't protect him better than one. With just the Player's Handbook, shield bashing isn't a particularly good option. It's not the worst, but I wouldn't recommend it. However, there are feats and abilities in Complete Warrior, Player's Handbook II, and Tome Of Battle* which make the shield a unique and effective weapon. *The options from Tome Of Battle are designed to make choice of weapon have less impact on how much damage you deal, and to give fighters more options in combat besides just how much to Power Attack for.
Sutemi 12-13-07, 03:35 AM	The D&D rules represent things that the character can percieve. If your fighter character used two shields, then he would quickly notice that two shields don't protect him better than one. Actually +1 bonus to AC is very difficult to notice, atleast for a inexperienced character. If, for instance, the character would be in the receiving end of volley of missiles and survive because everyone rolled a little bit bad attack rolls, the character (depending on attitude and intelligence) could in the future rely on two shield - maybe forever.
InkBlot 12-13-07, 04:03 AM	I'll grant that a stupid fighter (hardly rare) with nonmagical small shields might not notice. But with heavy shields and magical shields, the difference increases rapidly, making chance a smaller factor, and the inefficiency more self-evident. Anybody with at least an average intelligence, wielding two +1 heavy shields, can notice that there's a difference between the expected protection (+6 AC) and the actual protection (+3 AC). If there's a character in the party with at least a 16 Int (which would qualify him or her for Mensa membership in the real world), then that person should be able to point out to the fighter that the second shield isn't helping, after watching him fight a couple times. Wizards with Int scores over 18 are smarter than anybody you or I are likely to know. But my real objection was only to the idea that the game's rules don't reflect the setting our characters are in. They certainly do. A few don't, action points for example, but the vast majority do in some way. There's a common misconception, that to roleplay properly you must ignore what the rules say about your character. If that's not your assertion, then I'm sorry being a little harsh.
CryoSilver 12-13-07, 02:44 PM	One advantage may be holding a +5 Heavy shield on one arm, and getting +7 AC, and a +1 light shield on the other arm for no AC bonus, but loaded up with other powers (Bashing, Blinding, etc).
Goof 12-13-07, 04:16 PM	If you have 2 shields, you obviously don't gain anything AC wise from having two shields. How is that obvious when in the real world that is not the case? If I didn't know the rule I would allow some of the bonus to stack and maybe give bonuses for going all defensive, but then also giving other people attacks of opportunities. In fact even knowing the rule, I would do a house rule to over ride it. (partly because dnd gimped shield use big time, real world shield use blocks 90% of the shots, hell it takes away 60% of the target without even moving it) But I wouldn’t allow spells with shield to stack the same way. Just another rule that’s says X, while the real world says Y. Eh, sorry for the rant ;)
CryoSilver 12-13-07, 04:17 PM	"In the real world"? Show me empirical evidence of someone using two shields "in the real world."
InkBlot 12-13-07, 05:03 PM	One advantage may be holding a +5 Heavy shield on one arm, and getting +7 AC, and a +1 light shield on the other arm for no AC bonus, but loaded up with other powers (Bashing, Blinding, etc). That's very true. It's cheaper to do it that way. One +10 equivalent shield costs 100,000gp. Two +5 equivalent shields cost 50,000gp. Half price!
rambaldi 12-13-07, 05:41 PM	I thought the two shield rule was there to stop people having a dancing shield as well as a standard shield, personally i would rule two shields on your arms stack but one for only half
Goof 12-13-07, 06:40 PM	"In the real world"? Show me empirical evidence of someone using two shields "in the real world." Real world a shield is the best armor you can have. I can have one on my back and the one I am actively using. I may even use two shields actively (blocking for me, and for the long spearman I am running with. I do SCA fighting (both Heavy and Rapier) You will rarely see two shield use because we need to kill the other person(like in a tournament). That doesn’t mean I wont use two shields messing around during training. Or that it doesn’t provide me more cover, or hell, just having a blocking instrument in my main hand. And we don’t need a 2nd shield because we can effectively not get hit behind using one. Because a shield is a lot more than just +1 or +2 armor. If dnd reflected real world should it would be more like ½ your BAB rounded up + cover (20% small, 50% large). My point was dnd shield rules are broken in contrast to real world. I know this based on experience and it is easy enough to test against in the back yard. (the people I play dnd with are also fighters, two of them renowned) So it is easy for us to have a house rule like this. (based on situations) Such as, they are getting shot from with arrows, can I hold up two shields while only doing move actions towards them for total cover, etc.
Snosnake 12-13-07, 08:48 PM	Could you have a special set of Heavy shields made up that interlocked top to bottom to give you a tower shield when needed? Normally they would be just the +2 AC but putting them together that way would give +4 or cover as a tower shield. Don't even need to make new rules for it other than allowing one to create a tower shield out of 2 heavy shields. Anyone else think this would work as a reasonable idea for the duel shield bearer?
Sutemi 12-14-07, 01:09 AM	I'll grant that a stupid fighter (hardly rare) with nonmagical small shields might not notice. But with heavy shields and magical shields, the difference increases rapidly, making chance a smaller factor, and the inefficiency more self-evident. Anybody with at least an average intelligence, wielding two +1 heavy shields, can notice that there's a difference between the expected protection (+6 AC) and the actual protection (+3 AC). If there's a character in the party with at least a 16 Int (which would qualify him or her for Mensa membership in the real world), then that person should be able to point out to the fighter that the second shield isn't helping, after watching him fight a couple times. Wizards with Int scores over 18 are smarter than anybody you or I are likely to know. But my real objection was only to the idea that the game's rules don't reflect the setting our characters are in. They certainly do. A few don't, action points for example, but the vast majority do in some way. There's a common misconception, that to roleplay properly you must ignore what the rules say about your character. If that's not your assertion, then I'm sorry being a little harsh. Yes, like I said, +1 difference in AC in unnoticeable depending on stubborness/stupidness of fighter, but +2 AC or more is not. So we agree on everything, but one thing: Fighters don't listen to smart-a$$ wizards, 'coz they are only jealous of their skillzzz ;)
InkBlot 12-14-07, 12:06 PM	Could you have a special set of Heavy shields made up that interlocked top to bottom to give you a tower shield when needed? Normally they would be just the +2 AC but putting them together that way would give +4 or cover as a tower shield. Don't even need to make new rules for it other than allowing one to create a tower shield out of 2 heavy shields. You can do anything in D&D, so long as the other players agree that it's fair enough. That sounds like a pretty cool magic item. However, unless it still takes up two hands in tower-shield form, you're going to need to come up with rules for how to enchant it, and how those enchantments combine when the two shields are linked.