2 Speed weapons DO grant 2 extra attacks/round [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 Speed weapons DO grant 2 extra attacks/round [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Raven Dark
09-04-05, 04:04 PM I am well aware of the raging debate across the boards about whether or not two speed weapons stacked with each other (whether you get one extra attack per weapon, or if you only got one attack and you picked which weapon made it in any given round).

In any case, I found this in the v3.5 SRD which would appear to support the former group.

Quarterstaff of Alacrity

Both ends of this +5 quarterstaff of speed have equal enhancement and special powers, meaning that it allows an additional attack with each end every round. While the quarterstaff of alacrity is held, it grants its wielder a +5 resistance bonus on Reflex saves. It also deflects ranged weapons as if the wielder had the Deflect Arrows and Infinite Deflection feats.

Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, protection from arrows, shield; Market Price: 462,600 gp; Cost to Create: 231,600 gp + 14,620 XP.

The underlined portion specifically states that both ends of this double weapon have the speed property and that, as a result, the wielder gets two extra attacks per round--one with each end. I don't see how this is any different from wielding two seperate speed weapons.

I await your opinions and inevitable rebuttles. :D
jaelis
09-04-05, 04:18 PM It's been brought up before. The usual rebuttal is that this is a special epic item with special epic properties, and you can't generalize to normal speed items.

In other words, the ability to use both ends an extra time is just another one of the "special powers" it refers to.
Raven Dark
09-04-05, 07:50 PM DOUBLE POST :(
Raven Dark
09-04-05, 07:51 PM It's been brought up before. The usual rebuttal is that this is a special epic item with special epic properties, and you can't generalize to normal speed items.

In other words, the ability to use both ends an extra time is just another one of the "special powers" it refers to.

If that was the case, wouldn't it say "unlike two speed weapons, you may make an extra attack with each end in the same round" or something to that effect within the item's text?

It certainly seems to imply that, that is a perfectly normal function for non-epic items as well.
Tyler Do'Urden
09-04-05, 07:53 PM If that was the case, wouldn't it say "unlike two speed weapons, you may make an extra attack with each end in the same round" or something to that effect within the item's text?

Unless they simply forgot. The original EHB is 3e, and a lot of clarifications of this sort were added in 3.5.
SwollenOstrich
09-04-05, 08:02 PM I don't get the confusion. Under the weapon enchantment description for speed it specifically says: "This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as the haste spell."

Unless I am misunderstanding your argument, it couldn't be more clear that the effects of two speed weapons dont stack.
BeyondFated
09-04-05, 08:46 PM I don't get the confusion. Under the weapon enchantment description for speed it specifically says: "This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as the haste spell."

Unless I am misunderstanding your argument, it couldn't be more clear that the effects of two speed weapons dont stack.

They aren't stacking, they're on two different weapons. Thats like saying that two +5 weapons don't 'stack'.
Thorak
09-04-05, 09:12 PM Both ends of this +5 quarterstaff of speed have equal enhancement and special powers, meaning that it allows an additional attack with each end every round.

Emphasis mine.

It allowing an additional attack with each end every round is a special power.

They aren't stacking, they're on two different weapons. Thats like saying that two +5 weapons don't 'stack'.
Irrelevant. Speed affects the wielder of the weapon, not the weapon itself. Weapons don't make attacks.

It's more like saying that, if Defending hypothetically said it didn't stack with itself[/i], that two +5 Defending weapons don't stack. Which should be pretty obvious.

And yes, like SwollenOstrich said, Speed does say it doesn't stack with itself. Well, it says not with Haste and similar effects, and if something isn't similar to itself, I don't know what is.
Tyler Do'Urden
09-04-05, 09:16 PM Well... there is a certain amount of stacking because they're both granting "+1 extra attacks" if you will, and they both explicitly state that they "don't stack with similar effects."

The wording of speed and haste in 3.5 seems to suggest that there's a limit of one bonus attack from magic-type stuff per round, because they didn't want bonus attacks getting out of control.
DM Zoc
09-04-05, 10:16 PM I would have to say that this particular weapon would allow both ends to grant an extra attack, and it was written to indicate that such would be true for all weapons.

Allowing this, however, is ludicrous. It goes against the generalization of "no more than one extra attack from moving fast" and lends itself to a particular thrower build that allows for infinite attacks.
Crash01234567890
09-04-05, 10:27 PM I think the speed enchantment is supposed to represent the weapon moving faster and not the user. Hence the reason both the weapons would move faster allowing an attack with each one. However I really don't feel like writing another novel right now so do as you wish.
Raven Dark
09-05-05, 02:11 AM I would have to say that this particular weapon would allow both ends to grant an extra attack, and it was written to indicate that such would be true for all weapons.

Allowing this, however, is ludicrous. It goes against the generalization of "no more than one extra attack from moving fast" and lends itself to a particular thrower build that allows for infinite attacks.

Sounds like the build is the problem, not the weapon ability.
mvincent
09-05-05, 03:10 AM I await your opinions and inevitable rebuttles.The FAQ clarified this back in 3.0 (and it still applies):
"You can use two weapons of speed at a time all right, but
you still only get one extra attack, from one weapon or the
other, not both."

The epic weapon you mention is an exception to that rule (which epic weapons tend to do). It is a good find though... the wording of it's description makes it seem that the writer likely didn't realize this.
DM Zoc
09-05-05, 03:40 AM Sounds like the build is the problem, not the weapon ability.
The "build" is the Quick Draw feat. Alternatively, shuriken of speed would allow you to throw fifty of them as part of your full round action, and you would still have all of your attacks remaining. It gets expensive, true, but it's giving you free attacks.
UZI
09-05-05, 09:56 AM I love these threads. 2 speed weapons in the 3.5 rules have no restriction on both applying for a single character in the same round. The effect given for speed is an extra attack (by the wielding character, since wielding a speed weapon doesn't grant an extra attack to an ally or an enemy) with the specific weapon. This can be used with another speed weapon since the effect is for a different specific weapon. Likewise, one of the benefits of haste is an extra attack with any one weapon you are wielding. This is allowable with speed as long as you don't pick a speed weapon to make the extra haste attack.

The 3E FAQ may be read as either applying the intentions of the designers, or the consequences for the interaction of 3E haste and 3E speed. The definition of haste and speed both changed from 3E to 3.5, so until a 3.5 FAQ entry denies 2 speeds and haste, you're free to do so.

Now for real fun, start "juggling" dancing speed weapons and see what happens.
babysamurai
09-05-05, 10:00 AM I love these threads. 2 speed weapons in the 3.5 rules have no restriction on both applying for a single character in the same round. The effect given for speed is an extra attack (by the wielding character, since wielding a speed weapon doesn't grant an extra attack to an ally or an enemy) with the specific weapon. This can be used with another speed weapon since the effect is for a different specific weapon. Likewise, one of the benefits of haste is an extra attack with any one weapon you are wielding. This is allowable with speed as long as you don't pick a speed weapon to make the extra haste attack.

The 3E FAQ may be read as either applying the intentions of the designers, or the consequences for the interaction of 3E haste and 3E speed. The definition of haste and speed both changed from 3E to 3.5, so until a 3.5 FAQ entry denies 2 speeds and haste, you're free to do so.

Now for real fun, start "juggling" dancing speed weapons and see what happens.

...wrong.
UZI
09-05-05, 10:09 AM ...wrong.
hey, I can do that too...

right
splap
09-05-05, 10:55 AM lol
Thorak
09-05-05, 12:23 PM I love these threads. 2 speed weapons in the 3.5 rules have no restriction on both applying for a single character in the same round. The effect given for speed is an extra attack (by the wielding character, since wielding a speed weapon doesn't grant an extra attack to an ally or an enemy) with the specific weapon. This can be used with another speed weapon since the effect is for a different specific weapon. Likewise, one of the benefits of haste is an extra attack with any one weapon you are wielding. This is allowable with speed as long as you don't pick a speed weapon to make the extra haste attack.
Except that weapons don't make attacks.

And we're not talking about stacking. We're talking about the effects being cumulative.

In other words, you can't accumulate more than one attack from effects magically increasing your speed.
Raven Dark
09-05-05, 12:29 PM Edited out because I changed my mind.
Crash01234567890
09-05-05, 02:35 PM Originally Posted by DM Zoc
The "build" is the Quick Draw feat. Alternatively, shuriken of speed would allow you to throw fifty of them as part of your full round action, and you would still have all of your attacks remaining. It gets expensive, true, but it's giving you free attacks.

How do you get the extra attack from it if you've already thrown it. The wielder gets an extra attack with the weapon, and if you've already thrown it it's kind of hard to still be wielding it....unless it's returning also. Which is a lot of money to shell out on a shruiken.
primemover003
09-05-05, 03:39 PM UZI... 3.5 does have a restriction to Speed Weapons. It's exactly the same as the 3.0 FAQ entry. If you read the FAQ it says that any updates to it will be in red. From 3.0 to 3.5 there was no update to Speed. Why? Because it did not change significantly enough to warrant one. How many times do you need to be shown that?
DM Zoc
09-05-05, 06:04 PM How do you get the extra attack from it if you've already thrown it. The wielder gets an extra attack with the weapon, and if you've already thrown it it's kind of hard to still be wielding it....unless it's returning also. Which is a lot of money to shell out on a shruiken.
Shuriken are treated as ammunition, so you buy 50 +1 shuriken of speed for the cost of a +4 magical weapon. Shuriken can be drawn as a free action.

At the beginning of your turn, draw one as a free action, then throw it because you've just been granted an additional attack with that weapon. Now, draw a different shuriken and, lo and behold, it too would grant an additional attack with this new weapon. Repeat until you run out. And since each of those was thrown using the free attack granted from the enchantment on that individual weapon, you still have your regular full attack action left.

There's nothing stating or implying or even logical about the idea that you have to keep the speed weapon in your hand for the entire round, or else they would have disallowed the enchantment on throwing weapons entirely.
mikey_ak
09-05-05, 10:56 PM Um, seems to me that the "additional" attack has to come after the usual attacks ... right? So drawing the shurikan doesn't mean you can immediately throw it using the extra attack, you have to make all your standard attacks first. Of course, you then lose the extra attack because the weapon is no longer in your hand <shrug>.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raven Dark 09-04-05, 04:04 PM	I am well aware of the raging debate across the boards about whether or not two speed weapons stacked with each other (whether you get one extra attack per weapon, or if you only got one attack and you picked which weapon made it in any given round). In any case, I found this in the v3.5 SRD which would appear to support the former group. Quarterstaff of Alacrity Both ends of this +5 quarterstaff of speed have equal enhancement and special powers, meaning that it allows an additional attack with each end every round. While the quarterstaff of alacrity is held, it grants its wielder a +5 resistance bonus on Reflex saves. It also deflects ranged weapons as if the wielder had the Deflect Arrows and Infinite Deflection feats. Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, protection from arrows, shield; Market Price: 462,600 gp; Cost to Create: 231,600 gp + 14,620 XP. The underlined portion specifically states that both ends of this double weapon have the speed property and that, as a result, the wielder gets two extra attacks per round--one with each end. I don't see how this is any different from wielding two seperate speed weapons. I await your opinions and inevitable rebuttles. :D
jaelis 09-04-05, 04:18 PM	It's been brought up before. The usual rebuttal is that this is a special epic item with special epic properties, and you can't generalize to normal speed items. In other words, the ability to use both ends an extra time is just another one of the "special powers" it refers to.
Raven Dark 09-04-05, 07:50 PM	DOUBLE POST :(
Raven Dark 09-04-05, 07:51 PM	It's been brought up before. The usual rebuttal is that this is a special epic item with special epic properties, and you can't generalize to normal speed items. In other words, the ability to use both ends an extra time is just another one of the "special powers" it refers to. If that was the case, wouldn't it say "unlike two speed weapons, you may make an extra attack with each end in the same round" or something to that effect within the item's text? It certainly seems to imply that, that is a perfectly normal function for non-epic items as well.
Tyler Do'Urden 09-04-05, 07:53 PM	If that was the case, wouldn't it say "unlike two speed weapons, you may make an extra attack with each end in the same round" or something to that effect within the item's text? Unless they simply forgot. The original EHB is 3e, and a lot of clarifications of this sort were added in 3.5.
SwollenOstrich 09-04-05, 08:02 PM	I don't get the confusion. Under the weapon enchantment description for speed it specifically says: "This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as the haste spell." Unless I am misunderstanding your argument, it couldn't be more clear that the effects of two speed weapons dont stack.
BeyondFated 09-04-05, 08:46 PM	I don't get the confusion. Under the weapon enchantment description for speed it specifically says: "This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as the haste spell." Unless I am misunderstanding your argument, it couldn't be more clear that the effects of two speed weapons dont stack. They aren't stacking, they're on two different weapons. Thats like saying that two +5 weapons don't 'stack'.
Thorak 09-04-05, 09:12 PM	Both ends of this +5 quarterstaff of speed have equal enhancement and special powers, meaning that it allows an additional attack with each end every round. Emphasis mine. It allowing an additional attack with each end every round is a special power. They aren't stacking, they're on two different weapons. Thats like saying that two +5 weapons don't 'stack'. Irrelevant. Speed affects the wielder of the weapon, not the weapon itself. Weapons don't make attacks. It's more like saying that, if Defending hypothetically said it didn't stack with itself[/i], that two +5 Defending weapons don't stack. Which should be pretty obvious. And yes, like SwollenOstrich said, Speed does say it doesn't stack with itself. Well, it says not with Haste and similar effects, and if something isn't similar to itself, I don't know what is.
Tyler Do'Urden 09-04-05, 09:16 PM	Well... there is a certain amount of stacking because they're both granting "+1 extra attacks" if you will, and they both explicitly state that they "don't stack with similar effects." The wording of speed and haste in 3.5 seems to suggest that there's a limit of one bonus attack from magic-type stuff per round, because they didn't want bonus attacks getting out of control.
DM Zoc 09-04-05, 10:16 PM	I would have to say that this particular weapon would allow both ends to grant an extra attack, and it was written to indicate that such would be true for all weapons. Allowing this, however, is ludicrous. It goes against the generalization of "no more than one extra attack from moving fast" and lends itself to a particular thrower build that allows for infinite attacks.
Crash01234567890 09-04-05, 10:27 PM	I think the speed enchantment is supposed to represent the weapon moving faster and not the user. Hence the reason both the weapons would move faster allowing an attack with each one. However I really don't feel like writing another novel right now so do as you wish.
Raven Dark 09-05-05, 02:11 AM	I would have to say that this particular weapon would allow both ends to grant an extra attack, and it was written to indicate that such would be true for all weapons. Allowing this, however, is ludicrous. It goes against the generalization of "no more than one extra attack from moving fast" and lends itself to a particular thrower build that allows for infinite attacks. Sounds like the build is the problem, not the weapon ability.
mvincent 09-05-05, 03:10 AM	I await your opinions and inevitable rebuttles.The FAQ clarified this back in 3.0 (and it still applies): "You can use two weapons of speed at a time all right, but you still only get one extra attack, from one weapon or the other, not both." The epic weapon you mention is an exception to that rule (which epic weapons tend to do). It is a good find though... the wording of it's description makes it seem that the writer likely didn't realize this.
DM Zoc 09-05-05, 03:40 AM	Sounds like the build is the problem, not the weapon ability. The "build" is the Quick Draw feat. Alternatively, shuriken of speed would allow you to throw fifty of them as part of your full round action, and you would still have all of your attacks remaining. It gets expensive, true, but it's giving you free attacks.
UZI 09-05-05, 09:56 AM	I love these threads. 2 speed weapons in the 3.5 rules have no restriction on both applying for a single character in the same round. The effect given for speed is an extra attack (by the wielding character, since wielding a speed weapon doesn't grant an extra attack to an ally or an enemy) with the specific weapon. This can be used with another speed weapon since the effect is for a different specific weapon. Likewise, one of the benefits of haste is an extra attack with any one weapon you are wielding. This is allowable with speed as long as you don't pick a speed weapon to make the extra haste attack. The 3E FAQ may be read as either applying the intentions of the designers, or the consequences for the interaction of 3E haste and 3E speed. The definition of haste and speed both changed from 3E to 3.5, so until a 3.5 FAQ entry denies 2 speeds and haste, you're free to do so. Now for real fun, start "juggling" dancing speed weapons and see what happens.
babysamurai 09-05-05, 10:00 AM	I love these threads. 2 speed weapons in the 3.5 rules have no restriction on both applying for a single character in the same round. The effect given for speed is an extra attack (by the wielding character, since wielding a speed weapon doesn't grant an extra attack to an ally or an enemy) with the specific weapon. This can be used with another speed weapon since the effect is for a different specific weapon. Likewise, one of the benefits of haste is an extra attack with any one weapon you are wielding. This is allowable with speed as long as you don't pick a speed weapon to make the extra haste attack. The 3E FAQ may be read as either applying the intentions of the designers, or the consequences for the interaction of 3E haste and 3E speed. The definition of haste and speed both changed from 3E to 3.5, so until a 3.5 FAQ entry denies 2 speeds and haste, you're free to do so. Now for real fun, start "juggling" dancing speed weapons and see what happens. ...wrong.
UZI 09-05-05, 10:09 AM	...wrong. hey, I can do that too... right
splap 09-05-05, 10:55 AM	lol
Thorak 09-05-05, 12:23 PM	I love these threads. 2 speed weapons in the 3.5 rules have no restriction on both applying for a single character in the same round. The effect given for speed is an extra attack (by the wielding character, since wielding a speed weapon doesn't grant an extra attack to an ally or an enemy) with the specific weapon. This can be used with another speed weapon since the effect is for a different specific weapon. Likewise, one of the benefits of haste is an extra attack with any one weapon you are wielding. This is allowable with speed as long as you don't pick a speed weapon to make the extra haste attack. Except that weapons don't make attacks. And we're not talking about stacking. We're talking about the effects being cumulative. In other words, you can't accumulate more than one attack from effects magically increasing your speed.
Raven Dark 09-05-05, 12:29 PM	Edited out because I changed my mind.
Crash01234567890 09-05-05, 02:35 PM	Originally Posted by DM Zoc The "build" is the Quick Draw feat. Alternatively, shuriken of speed would allow you to throw fifty of them as part of your full round action, and you would still have all of your attacks remaining. It gets expensive, true, but it's giving you free attacks. How do you get the extra attack from it if you've already thrown it. The wielder gets an extra attack with the weapon, and if you've already thrown it it's kind of hard to still be wielding it....unless it's returning also. Which is a lot of money to shell out on a shruiken.
primemover003 09-05-05, 03:39 PM	UZI... 3.5 does have a restriction to Speed Weapons. It's exactly the same as the 3.0 FAQ entry. If you read the FAQ it says that any updates to it will be in red. From 3.0 to 3.5 there was no update to Speed. Why? Because it did not change significantly enough to warrant one. How many times do you need to be shown that?
DM Zoc 09-05-05, 06:04 PM	How do you get the extra attack from it if you've already thrown it. The wielder gets an extra attack with the weapon, and if you've already thrown it it's kind of hard to still be wielding it....unless it's returning also. Which is a lot of money to shell out on a shruiken. Shuriken are treated as ammunition, so you buy 50 +1 shuriken of speed for the cost of a +4 magical weapon. Shuriken can be drawn as a free action. At the beginning of your turn, draw one as a free action, then throw it because you've just been granted an additional attack with that weapon. Now, draw a different shuriken and, lo and behold, it too would grant an additional attack with this new weapon. Repeat until you run out. And since each of those was thrown using the free attack granted from the enchantment on that individual weapon, you still have your regular full attack action left. There's nothing stating or implying or even logical about the idea that you have to keep the speed weapon in your hand for the entire round, or else they would have disallowed the enchantment on throwing weapons entirely.
mikey_ak 09-05-05, 10:56 PM	Um, seems to me that the "additional" attack has to come after the usual attacks ... right? So drawing the shurikan doesn't mean you can immediately throw it using the extra attack, you have to make all your standard attacks first. Of course, you then lose the extra attack because the weapon is no longer in your hand <shrug>.