3 Curious Combat Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

3 Curious Combat Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
marcusq
10-18-04, 02:20 AM Hoping to hear from some experienced DMs & players out there who have run into these slightly esoteric situations before:

Q#1: Fighting Defensively while spellcasting to boost AC?

Could a spellcaster cast a spell while fighting defensively? (PHB p.140). On p.142 it mentions that Total Defense can be taken as a standard action, so that rules out that option for mages while spellcasting (which also takes a std action), but it looks like "fighting defensively" might be legal (and very beneficial for any mage). It does seem a little squirrelly, though. Anybody seen any ruling / erratta on this?

Q#2: Penalty for Greased opponent vs. Trip / Bull Rush attacks?

If a mage casts Grease on an opponent's boots (and the saving throw failed, so the boots are greased). Say the opponent gets up from his initial fall (cuz he failed the first save), and is able to stand (cuz he makes his next save). What would be the penalty that opponent would take vs. subsequent trip attacks or bull rush attempts? I'm thinking in the neighborhood of -6 or higher, but I'm curious. Alternatively, it might just force the Ref save again in addition to the trip / bull rush. Any ideas? (Again, if there's any kind of official ruling on this, I'd love to know.)

Q#3: One character bluffs, 'nother character gets the flat-foot benefits?

Is there any way for one PC to feint an NPC, but make theNPC flat-footed for someone other than himself (like oh, say, the Rogue in the party)? I ask this because in the explanation of 'Feinting in Combat' (PHB p.68, lower left, continues at top of next column) it states "If your Bluff check exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack YOU make against it." (emphasis mine).

I thought there might be a way to pull it off by having the Rogue take Expert Tactician (Song & Silence p.38) but the text there quite clearly says "You may make one extra melee attack ... against one foe who is within melee reach and denied a Dexterity bonus against YOUR melee attacks for any reason." (emphasis mine). So looks like no luck there either.

Does anyone know of a way to do this? I'm trying to find a way to team up with the Rogue in the party to give him more sneak attacks.

Thanks in advance for all informative replies.
SALDAR
10-18-04, 02:53 AM #1: There is casting on the defensive (PHB pg 140). This does not grant an AC bonus but does eliminate attacks of opportunity against you while casting.

#2: I would apply the same effects as if the opponent were standing in a greased area. As for trip/bullrush attempts against the opponent I would give a –4 penalty on the opposed roll as the opponent is on unstable footing (a direct reversal of the stable footing bonus). If the trip succeeds then the opponent must make the save to stand required by the grease spell. If the bullrush succeeds then the opponent must make the save to remain standing.

#3: By simply giving the rogue a flanking position, you attack from the opposite side, he would get sneak attack damage on each of his attacks made. If the rogue takes the expert tactician feat then he would gain an extra attack. I am unaware of any feat that you could take that would allow another character to gain extra attacks.
Naeron
10-18-04, 05:21 AM 1) No, Fighting Defensively is a standard action when attacking or when choosing the full attack action therefore the only way that you could combine this is with a quickened spell.

2) By the rules, no. However if the person is bull-rushed then the attacker would enter their square so would almost certainly be affected by the Grease spell as well.

3) No, Feint only denies them dexterity for your first attack, no-one elses (you would need another feat for that). And an important note is that they are not considered Flat-Footed against you, only denied their dexterity. So they would be able to take an AoO against the feinter if one was provoked (without combat reflexes you cannot take an AoO if flat-footed, but you can if you are only denied dexterity to AC).
CruelDM
10-18-04, 08:38 AM In response to question 3, another party member could enter a successful grapple with the opponant and then the rogue would also make all his attacks as sneak attacks. Grapple rules state that, when grappled, you only retain your dex against the grappler, but you lose it to all other opponants. As stated, flanking also allows the rogue to make all his attacks as sneak attacks.
dalantjen
10-18-04, 02:07 PM Can you sneak attack on a grapple? There is a miss chance (or rather, a you-might-hit-your-ally chance) when attacking someone in a grapple. Would you want to take the chance that you SA your buddy?
Zherog
10-18-04, 02:44 PM The random chance only applies to ranged attacks - at least according to the footnotes on the table in the SRD.
Zherog
10-18-04, 02:46 PM Another way to grant your party's rogue additional sneak attacks is to stun the oppoonent - such as a monk with the Stunning Fist feat. Stunned creatures drop everything and lose their dex bonus to AC.
Tony Vargas
10-18-04, 03:52 PM Q#1: Fighting Defensively while spellcasting to boost AC? Not quite. You could cast a touch spell, and choose to fight defensively while delivering it. The AC bonus would kick in when you made the touch attack, though, which'd be after you'd taken any AoOs for spellcasting...

Q#2: Penalty for Greased opponent vs. Trip / Bull Rush attacks? I'm not aware of one. If you're bullrushed, you'll be moved, and moving while in a greased area requires a balance check or you fall. That's about the only thing I can think of. It would certainly make sense though to aply some sort of 'instability penatly' - maybe a -4, since 'stability bonuses' gained by dwarves & quadrupeds happen to be +4?

Q#3: One character bluffs, 'nother character gets the flat-foot benefits? No.

I'm trying to find a way to team up with the Rogue in the party to give him more sneak attacks. Flanking should cover it. If you want, you can flank and do 'aiding another' to give the rogue an additional +2 attack bonus...
marcusq
10-21-04, 02:54 AM Just wanted tosay, thanks to everyone for the informative replies. You've all been most helpful. I meant to reply to some of these posts earlier but work gets in the way of a lot of things...

It looks like there's some consensus is in on some of these questions:

#1 Fighting defensively can't be combined with casting a spell, but you can cast on the defensive to try to eliminate the AoOs. OTOH, fighting defensively _could_ be combined with the touch attack that you use to deliver a touch spell after you cast it.

#2 The consensus on grease modifier is -4 (opposite of extra stability), plus the normal effects of moving in a greased area. I'll pass this on to my DM for consideration.

#3 There's no way for me to bluff and someone else to benefit. I'll have to find other ways of assisting my rogue teammate. I was already aware of flanking and grappling, but I was hoping to be able to bluff to help a ranged rogue (not melee) get sneak attacks. Looks like the only way to do that would be with some sort of spell (or special ability like the Monk's stunning fist) that would render the opponent blind, stunned, paralyzed, etc.

Again, thanks much to all.
Nom
10-21-04, 09:39 AM Just wanted tosay, thanks to everyone for the informative replies. You've all been most helpful. I meant to reply to some of these posts earlier but work gets in the way of a lot of things...

It looks like there's some consensus is in on some of these questions:

#1 Fighting defensively can't be combined with casting a spell, but you can cast on the defensive to try to eliminate the AoOs. OTOH, fighting defensively _could_ be combined with the touch attack that you use to deliver a touch spell after you cast it.But only if you hold the charge. Fighting defensively is part of either a Standard Attack action or a Full Round Full Attack action. You can't do it as part of the Cast a Spell standard action.
#3 There's no way for me to bluff and someone else to benefit. I'll have to find other ways of assisting my rogue teammate. I was already aware of flanking and grappling, but I was hoping to be able to bluff to help a ranged rogue (not melee) get sneak attacks. Looks like the only way to do that would be with some sort of spell (or special ability like the Monk's stunning fist) that would render the opponent blind, stunned, paralyzed, etc.Personally, I'd allow a third party (eg you) to make a Bluff check to create a distraction that would allow a rogue to Hide again (see pg 76), thus resetting his ability to make sneak attacks from hiding. The critical factor in the text (PH pg 37) is the distraction. As DM, I'd probably require a Move action to do it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
marcusq 10-18-04, 02:20 AM	Hoping to hear from some experienced DMs & players out there who have run into these slightly esoteric situations before: Q#1: Fighting Defensively while spellcasting to boost AC? Could a spellcaster cast a spell while fighting defensively? (PHB p.140). On p.142 it mentions that Total Defense can be taken as a standard action, so that rules out that option for mages while spellcasting (which also takes a std action), but it looks like "fighting defensively" might be legal (and very beneficial for any mage). It does seem a little squirrelly, though. Anybody seen any ruling / erratta on this? Q#2: Penalty for Greased opponent vs. Trip / Bull Rush attacks? If a mage casts Grease on an opponent's boots (and the saving throw failed, so the boots are greased). Say the opponent gets up from his initial fall (cuz he failed the first save), and is able to stand (cuz he makes his next save). What would be the penalty that opponent would take vs. subsequent trip attacks or bull rush attempts? I'm thinking in the neighborhood of -6 or higher, but I'm curious. Alternatively, it might just force the Ref save again in addition to the trip / bull rush. Any ideas? (Again, if there's any kind of official ruling on this, I'd love to know.) Q#3: One character bluffs, 'nother character gets the flat-foot benefits? Is there any way for one PC to feint an NPC, but make theNPC flat-footed for someone other than himself (like oh, say, the Rogue in the party)? I ask this because in the explanation of 'Feinting in Combat' (PHB p.68, lower left, continues at top of next column) it states "If your Bluff check exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack YOU make against it." (emphasis mine). I thought there might be a way to pull it off by having the Rogue take Expert Tactician (Song & Silence p.38) but the text there quite clearly says "You may make one extra melee attack ... against one foe who is within melee reach and denied a Dexterity bonus against YOUR melee attacks for any reason." (emphasis mine). So looks like no luck there either. Does anyone know of a way to do this? I'm trying to find a way to team up with the Rogue in the party to give him more sneak attacks. Thanks in advance for all informative replies.
SALDAR 10-18-04, 02:53 AM	#1: There is casting on the defensive (PHB pg 140). This does not grant an AC bonus but does eliminate attacks of opportunity against you while casting. #2: I would apply the same effects as if the opponent were standing in a greased area. As for trip/bullrush attempts against the opponent I would give a –4 penalty on the opposed roll as the opponent is on unstable footing (a direct reversal of the stable footing bonus). If the trip succeeds then the opponent must make the save to stand required by the grease spell. If the bullrush succeeds then the opponent must make the save to remain standing. #3: By simply giving the rogue a flanking position, you attack from the opposite side, he would get sneak attack damage on each of his attacks made. If the rogue takes the expert tactician feat then he would gain an extra attack. I am unaware of any feat that you could take that would allow another character to gain extra attacks.
Naeron 10-18-04, 05:21 AM	1) No, Fighting Defensively is a standard action when attacking or when choosing the full attack action therefore the only way that you could combine this is with a quickened spell. 2) By the rules, no. However if the person is bull-rushed then the attacker would enter their square so would almost certainly be affected by the Grease spell as well. 3) No, Feint only denies them dexterity for your first attack, no-one elses (you would need another feat for that). And an important note is that they are not considered Flat-Footed against you, only denied their dexterity. So they would be able to take an AoO against the feinter if one was provoked (without combat reflexes you cannot take an AoO if flat-footed, but you can if you are only denied dexterity to AC).
CruelDM 10-18-04, 08:38 AM	In response to question 3, another party member could enter a successful grapple with the opponant and then the rogue would also make all his attacks as sneak attacks. Grapple rules state that, when grappled, you only retain your dex against the grappler, but you lose it to all other opponants. As stated, flanking also allows the rogue to make all his attacks as sneak attacks.
dalantjen 10-18-04, 02:07 PM	Can you sneak attack on a grapple? There is a miss chance (or rather, a you-might-hit-your-ally chance) when attacking someone in a grapple. Would you want to take the chance that you SA your buddy?
Zherog 10-18-04, 02:44 PM	The random chance only applies to ranged attacks - at least according to the footnotes on the table in the SRD.
Zherog 10-18-04, 02:46 PM	Another way to grant your party's rogue additional sneak attacks is to stun the oppoonent - such as a monk with the Stunning Fist feat. Stunned creatures drop everything and lose their dex bonus to AC.
Tony Vargas 10-18-04, 03:52 PM	Q#1: Fighting Defensively while spellcasting to boost AC? Not quite. You could cast a touch spell, and choose to fight defensively while delivering it. The AC bonus would kick in when you made the touch attack, though, which'd be after you'd taken any AoOs for spellcasting... Q#2: Penalty for Greased opponent vs. Trip / Bull Rush attacks? I'm not aware of one. If you're bullrushed, you'll be moved, and moving while in a greased area requires a balance check or you fall. That's about the only thing I can think of. It would certainly make sense though to aply some sort of 'instability penatly' - maybe a -4, since 'stability bonuses' gained by dwarves & quadrupeds happen to be +4? Q#3: One character bluffs, 'nother character gets the flat-foot benefits? No. I'm trying to find a way to team up with the Rogue in the party to give him more sneak attacks. Flanking should cover it. If you want, you can flank and do 'aiding another' to give the rogue an additional +2 attack bonus...
marcusq 10-21-04, 02:54 AM	Just wanted tosay, thanks to everyone for the informative replies. You've all been most helpful. I meant to reply to some of these posts earlier but work gets in the way of a lot of things... It looks like there's some consensus is in on some of these questions: #1 Fighting defensively can't be combined with casting a spell, but you can cast on the defensive to try to eliminate the AoOs. OTOH, fighting defensively _could_ be combined with the touch attack that you use to deliver a touch spell after you cast it. #2 The consensus on grease modifier is -4 (opposite of extra stability), plus the normal effects of moving in a greased area. I'll pass this on to my DM for consideration. #3 There's no way for me to bluff and someone else to benefit. I'll have to find other ways of assisting my rogue teammate. I was already aware of flanking and grappling, but I was hoping to be able to bluff to help a ranged rogue (not melee) get sneak attacks. Looks like the only way to do that would be with some sort of spell (or special ability like the Monk's stunning fist) that would render the opponent blind, stunned, paralyzed, etc. Again, thanks much to all.
Nom 10-21-04, 09:39 AM	Just wanted tosay, thanks to everyone for the informative replies. You've all been most helpful. I meant to reply to some of these posts earlier but work gets in the way of a lot of things... It looks like there's some consensus is in on some of these questions: #1 Fighting defensively can't be combined with casting a spell, but you can cast on the defensive to try to eliminate the AoOs. OTOH, fighting defensively _could_ be combined with the touch attack that you use to deliver a touch spell after you cast it.But only if you hold the charge. Fighting defensively is part of either a Standard Attack action or a Full Round Full Attack action. You can't do it as part of the Cast a Spell standard action. #3 There's no way for me to bluff and someone else to benefit. I'll have to find other ways of assisting my rogue teammate. I was already aware of flanking and grappling, but I was hoping to be able to bluff to help a ranged rogue (not melee) get sneak attacks. Looks like the only way to do that would be with some sort of spell (or special ability like the Monk's stunning fist) that would render the opponent blind, stunned, paralyzed, etc.Personally, I'd allow a third party (eg you) to make a Bluff check to create a distraction that would allow a rogue to Hide again (see pg 76), thus resetting his ability to make sneak attacks from hiding. The critical factor in the text (PH pg 37) is the distraction. As DM, I'd probably require a Move action to do it.