[3.0 Ed] Can a raging barbarian fight defensively? [Archive] - Wizards Community

[3.0 Ed] Can a raging barbarian fight defensively? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Trydan
09-15-04, 12:55 PM According to the 3.0 rules, a barbarian can not use Expertise or skills requiring patience or concentration. But what about fighting defensively (where you take -4 to attack, to get +2 to AC)? I would have expected this to be mentioned in the rule book, or the on-line FAQ, but I found nothing. Can anyone help me?
DungeonMaster
09-15-04, 02:34 PM Fighting defensively requires neither patience nor concentration either by the rules or in real life. It can mean something as simple as wide arcing swings not intended to hit the opponent but intended instead to hit or impede his blade.
In fact one of the best ways to fight defensively is just to move a lot, and the raging barbarian is not restricted in his movement in the least.

Does that help? :mage:
Zherog
09-15-04, 02:55 PM My instincts on this question seem to agree with DungeonMaster's answer - I would allow it.
Trydan
09-15-04, 03:34 PM Thanks for the replies. Yep... that definitely helps. Basically, it came down to the barbarian being surrounded by loads and loads of goblins. If he upped his AC a bit, he would stave off are much large proportion of the hits. As his enemies' ACs were poor, it didn't make a lot of difference to his attack. Add Cleave/Great-Cleave, and he just wades through them.

So... thanks again. :)
masterofmayhem
09-15-04, 06:05 PM [3.0 Ed] Can a raging barbarian fight defensively?

Well . . . Drizzt does . . .
:D
Wil Harvey
09-15-04, 06:11 PM I would say absolutely not.

The rules are very clear that a barbarian cannot use Expertise while raging. All Expertise does is let's the character sacrifice accuracy for better protection. The spirit of the rules suggest that a raging barbarian doesn't have the required focus to do such a feat.

Fighting defensively is the exact same thing. The character sacrifices accuracy for better protection, albeit a bit clumsier than someone with Expertise. The spirit of the rules seems to suggest that a raging barbarian would not have the proper focus to do such a thing.

There's a feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds (3.5) that lets a raging barbarian maintain clarity of mind while raging. I'd allow someone with that feat to use Expertise or to fight defensively while raging.
FitzNighteyes
09-15-04, 06:54 PM Fighting defensively is the exact same thing.

Except that the bonuses from Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise stack. Why is this legal if they are merely different versions of each other (ie advanced and flexible vs. clumsy and rigid)?

IMO, Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise are two totally different things, which is why they work together. The fact that they have the same effect (penalty to hit and bonus to AC) has nothing to do with where those bonuses come from.

I wish the SRD had the fluff text from the feats right now. :(

Anyway, I've always seen fighting defensively as a wildly swinging to keep your opponents at bay, or ineffectually swinging while keeping your distance. Both of those would work fine with the "spirit" of Rage. As opposed to Combat expertise, which I view as using your weapon to best effect to prevent enemy blows. Of course, neither visualization perfectly matches the mechanics in all situation. But they certainly back up the RAW of Rage while matching my interpretation of the "spirit".

The moral of the story is : trying to base a ruling off "spirit of the rules" can result in wildly different rulings and frequently in-game arguments. Just say no to these house rules kids!
bitnine
09-15-04, 10:16 PM If they had intented to prevent the barbarian from increasing his AC through the use of any manuever (such as fighting defensively, from cover or anything of the like), they would simply say that the barbarian couldn't increase his AC. It doesn't reference AC increases at all - instead, it bars him from using skills that require patience or concentration. The two are not the same.
Wil Harvey
09-16-04, 02:37 PM They can't use Expertise, which lowers your attack bonus to increase your AC, but they can fight defensively, which lowers your attack bonus to increase your AC?

I'm not talking about flavor or fluff. You could come up with fluff to justify almost anything in a fantasy game. I'm talking about mechanics. These two things are mechanically identical, except one is more effective. I don't see why one would be allowed and the other wouldn't, from a simple mechanical standpoint.
Wil Harvey
09-16-04, 02:43 PM Hell, even the fluff seems to say that these two things are nearly identical.

From the 3.0 PHB description of Expertise:

"You are trained at using your combat skill for defense as well as offense."

I think the most basic explanation of fighting defensively would be using your combat skill for defense (as well as offense).

I just don't see how these things are different.
buddhachuck
09-16-04, 02:44 PM maybe if you imagine the fighting defensively action as simply moving around more, making yourself a harder target. doesn't require concentration. also, in unearthed arcana there's a variation of the barbarian rage that increases your ac by 2. combat expertise, in my view, is being able to skillfully use your weapon to defend yourself. fighting defensively means just making yourself a harder target to hit through movement, which also penalizes your chance to hit.
FitzNighteyes
09-16-04, 02:51 PM I'm not talking about flavor or fluff. You could come up with fluff to justify almost anything in a fantasy game. I'm talking about mechanics. These two things are mechanically identical, except one is more effective. I don't see why one would be allowed and the other wouldn't, from a simple mechanical standpoint.

If all you care about is the mechanical, then it's simple. One doesn't work because the Rage ability says so. And the other does work because the Rage ability doesn't say it doesn't.

The fact that the modifier types (penalty to hit, dodge bonus to AC) are identical is irrelevent.
TMPikachu
09-16-04, 06:36 PM I would say absolutely not.

The rules are very clear that a barbarian cannot use Expertise while raging. All Expertise does is let's the character sacrifice accuracy for better protection. The spirit of the rules suggest that a raging barbarian doesn't have the required focus to do such a feat.

Fighting defensively is the exact same thing. The character sacrifices accuracy for better protection, albeit a bit clumsier than someone with Expertise. The spirit of the rules seems to suggest that a raging barbarian would not have the proper focus to do such a thing.

There's a feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds (3.5) that lets a raging barbarian maintain clarity of mind while raging. I'd allow someone with that feat to use Expertise or to fight defensively while raging.

when you corner a wild animal, let's say a wolverine, they get really vicious, and they fight defensively. They growl, drool, bark and swing crazily, all to protect itself from harm
tiluvias99
09-16-04, 08:20 PM just another factor: could he use total defense :D ?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Trydan 09-15-04, 12:55 PM	According to the 3.0 rules, a barbarian can not use Expertise or skills requiring patience or concentration. But what about fighting defensively (where you take -4 to attack, to get +2 to AC)? I would have expected this to be mentioned in the rule book, or the on-line FAQ, but I found nothing. Can anyone help me?
DungeonMaster 09-15-04, 02:34 PM	Fighting defensively requires neither patience nor concentration either by the rules or in real life. It can mean something as simple as wide arcing swings not intended to hit the opponent but intended instead to hit or impede his blade. In fact one of the best ways to fight defensively is just to move a lot, and the raging barbarian is not restricted in his movement in the least. Does that help? :mage:
Zherog 09-15-04, 02:55 PM	My instincts on this question seem to agree with DungeonMaster's answer - I would allow it.
Trydan 09-15-04, 03:34 PM	Thanks for the replies. Yep... that definitely helps. Basically, it came down to the barbarian being surrounded by loads and loads of goblins. If he upped his AC a bit, he would stave off are much large proportion of the hits. As his enemies' ACs were poor, it didn't make a lot of difference to his attack. Add Cleave/Great-Cleave, and he just wades through them. So... thanks again. :)
masterofmayhem 09-15-04, 06:05 PM	[3.0 Ed] Can a raging barbarian fight defensively? Well . . . Drizzt does . . . :D
Wil Harvey 09-15-04, 06:11 PM	I would say absolutely not. The rules are very clear that a barbarian cannot use Expertise while raging. All Expertise does is let's the character sacrifice accuracy for better protection. The spirit of the rules suggest that a raging barbarian doesn't have the required focus to do such a feat. Fighting defensively is the exact same thing. The character sacrifices accuracy for better protection, albeit a bit clumsier than someone with Expertise. The spirit of the rules seems to suggest that a raging barbarian would not have the proper focus to do such a thing. There's a feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds (3.5) that lets a raging barbarian maintain clarity of mind while raging. I'd allow someone with that feat to use Expertise or to fight defensively while raging.
FitzNighteyes 09-15-04, 06:54 PM	Fighting defensively is the exact same thing. Except that the bonuses from Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise stack. Why is this legal if they are merely different versions of each other (ie advanced and flexible vs. clumsy and rigid)? IMO, Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise are two totally different things, which is why they work together. The fact that they have the same effect (penalty to hit and bonus to AC) has nothing to do with where those bonuses come from. I wish the SRD had the fluff text from the feats right now. :( Anyway, I've always seen fighting defensively as a wildly swinging to keep your opponents at bay, or ineffectually swinging while keeping your distance. Both of those would work fine with the "spirit" of Rage. As opposed to Combat expertise, which I view as using your weapon to best effect to prevent enemy blows. Of course, neither visualization perfectly matches the mechanics in all situation. But they certainly back up the RAW of Rage while matching my interpretation of the "spirit". The moral of the story is : trying to base a ruling off "spirit of the rules" can result in wildly different rulings and frequently in-game arguments. Just say no to these house rules kids!
bitnine 09-15-04, 10:16 PM	If they had intented to prevent the barbarian from increasing his AC through the use of any manuever (such as fighting defensively, from cover or anything of the like), they would simply say that the barbarian couldn't increase his AC. It doesn't reference AC increases at all - instead, it bars him from using skills that require patience or concentration. The two are not the same.
Wil Harvey 09-16-04, 02:37 PM	They can't use Expertise, which lowers your attack bonus to increase your AC, but they can fight defensively, which lowers your attack bonus to increase your AC? I'm not talking about flavor or fluff. You could come up with fluff to justify almost anything in a fantasy game. I'm talking about mechanics. These two things are mechanically identical, except one is more effective. I don't see why one would be allowed and the other wouldn't, from a simple mechanical standpoint.
Wil Harvey 09-16-04, 02:43 PM	Hell, even the fluff seems to say that these two things are nearly identical. From the 3.0 PHB description of Expertise: "You are trained at using your combat skill for defense as well as offense." I think the most basic explanation of fighting defensively would be using your combat skill for defense (as well as offense). I just don't see how these things are different.
buddhachuck 09-16-04, 02:44 PM	maybe if you imagine the fighting defensively action as simply moving around more, making yourself a harder target. doesn't require concentration. also, in unearthed arcana there's a variation of the barbarian rage that increases your ac by 2. combat expertise, in my view, is being able to skillfully use your weapon to defend yourself. fighting defensively means just making yourself a harder target to hit through movement, which also penalizes your chance to hit.
FitzNighteyes 09-16-04, 02:51 PM	I'm not talking about flavor or fluff. You could come up with fluff to justify almost anything in a fantasy game. I'm talking about mechanics. These two things are mechanically identical, except one is more effective. I don't see why one would be allowed and the other wouldn't, from a simple mechanical standpoint. If all you care about is the mechanical, then it's simple. One doesn't work because the Rage ability says so. And the other does work because the Rage ability doesn't say it doesn't. The fact that the modifier types (penalty to hit, dodge bonus to AC) are identical is irrelevent.
TMPikachu 09-16-04, 06:36 PM	I would say absolutely not. The rules are very clear that a barbarian cannot use Expertise while raging. All Expertise does is let's the character sacrifice accuracy for better protection. The spirit of the rules suggest that a raging barbarian doesn't have the required focus to do such a feat. Fighting defensively is the exact same thing. The character sacrifices accuracy for better protection, albeit a bit clumsier than someone with Expertise. The spirit of the rules seems to suggest that a raging barbarian would not have the proper focus to do such a thing. There's a feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds (3.5) that lets a raging barbarian maintain clarity of mind while raging. I'd allow someone with that feat to use Expertise or to fight defensively while raging. when you corner a wild animal, let's say a wolverine, they get really vicious, and they fight defensively. They growl, drool, bark and swing crazily, all to protect itself from harm
tiluvias99 09-16-04, 08:20 PM	just another factor: could he use total defense :D ?