Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mvincent 11-15-07, 06:37 PM	Ok, this is an old, unresolved issue that has been hashed out more than just about any topic I've seen (links to extremely long threads are available on request). Now, I'm not trying to resolve it here, but I thought I'd clarify some information on it: In D&D 3.0 (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html): 1) The hydra's description said: "Feats: A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity each round." 2) Monsters (including the hydra) didn't have separate "attack" and "full attack" lines, so the hydra's multi-headed attacks looked similar to any other monster's multiple attacks. 3) Severing a hydra's head did not involve (AoO provoking) sunder attempts, and players were likely to try removing heads (as was the apparent intent). 4) Combat reflexes said "The character still may only make one attack of opportunity per enemy." 5) At the time, most groups interpreted all this to mean that a 3.0 hydra only made one AoO (with one head) per enemy (and this seemed to be the writer's intent) Now, in 3.5 6) The hydra's combat reflex description no longer says: "each round." at the end. 7) Monsters have a separate "attack" and "full attack" line, and the hydra's multi-head attack is on both lines. 8) Severing a hydra's head involves (AoO provoking) sunder attempts (which no one does anymore, as that would likely be suicide unless they happen to have improved sunder) 9) Combat reflexes no longer says "The character still may only make one attack of opportunity per enemy." 10) The hydra's CR did not change, even though fast healing was added. 11) Given points 6, 7 and 9 many people now interpret the hydra's combat reflexes as granting multiple attacks on a single AoO (and I can certainly see why). However, given the background, the CR and the other points, I'm thinking that there is an excellent chance that this was an unintended oddity that occurred in the conversion from 3.0 to 3.5 (and that it was not the actual intent of the original writer). I'm curious: how many of you allowed a hydra multiple attacks on a single AoO in 3.0. How many did not?
tyrecian 11-15-07, 06:55 PM	Hey MV, I never used the Hydra in 3.0, so i can't answer your query, but i recently had a party against a Hydra, and something interesting came up. Since the heads are on both the partial and the full attack line, once slowed, every head then still got to attack. The wizard was very upset about that affair. I thought that each head was checked seperately, so that each head could attack an enemy, rather than using the "Hydra" as one monster with many heads. So i would have used the 3.0 ruling to allow many head AoO attacks, but that was also facing, so that only so many could be attacking, since it is a large or larger fiend (so divide em up among the monsters whole "face" for each square, i suppose). I see that i am against most groups, and prolly would have caved into a group's arguments there :) It is a strange monster, for sure, since its attacks are very odd. It is also a cumbersome magic the gatherring card from unlimited (and reprinted). I suppose the Hydra will always be odd, but it certainly is a tough opponent (especially the pyro hydra) for its CR if it has surprise.
PhaedrusXY 11-15-07, 08:33 PM	I have only used a hydra once, and I can't remember if it was in a 3.0 or 3.5 game... I think it was 3.5. I did use all of its heads on a single AoO, though (which didn't make the barbarian that charged it very happy :D ). The party did eventually beat it... without the barbarian. There are just some monsters that you have to know how to fight. Hydras are one of them. You don't grapple a remorhaz, and you don't charge a hydra. :P
runestar 11-15-07, 09:00 PM	I did once, though the hydra never really got to make any AoOs. One of my PCs was a barb1/fighter2 tripper, and his trip check was so high that he was able to consistently trip the hydra (enlarge person, ransuer, wolf berserker, improved trip, combat reflexes, rage) due to his 20-ft reach (while the hydra only had 10-ft reach). This gave him a base trip check of +20, as opposed to the hydra's trip check of just +11. So the combat (and a most lopsided one) went something like this... Hydra tried to charge the barb (it can't get very far otherwise with its 20ft move). Barb gets an AoO because the hydra has to leave a threatened square to get within reach, trips, easily makes the touch attack and opposed trip check, hydra goes down, uses bonus attack to sunder (no need for improved sunder since hydra is not within reach). Next round, barb takes a 5-ft move and sunders another head. Hydra gets up (provoking an AoO, losing another head in the process), tries to move, again provokes another AoO, gets tripped again, loses a 3rd head. And you can guess how this sequence plays out in the end...:P
DM-Scott 11-15-07, 11:10 PM	That, Runestar, is a beautiful story. :D
PhaedrusXY 11-15-07, 11:49 PM	The barbarian my example was a typical greataxe wielding half-orc whose answer to everything was "I charge it!". I even said "are you sure about that?", and indicated that it would probably be a bad idea. He did it anyway. :nonono: He actually lived through the Attacks of Opportunity. Then it was the hydra's turn...
Chicago Gamer 11-16-07, 11:18 AM	Actually a hydra's trip check is 15-18 depending on how many heads it has (+4 for quadruped, +8 for Huge size, and +3 to +6 for Strength).
rimble 11-16-07, 01:21 PM	Ah ha, I was just poo-pooing off-topic in someone elses thread regarding the Hydra's AoO. Unfortunately, I didn't run a Hydra in 3.0 either, however, I only consider two options fair: 1) The Hydra can make a number of AoO's each round equal to it's number of heads, each AoO is just one attack. 2) One AoO a round consisting of all the heads attacking. I'm really quite torn between the two...I think when I ran the Red Hand of Doom that I used option 1.
PhaedrusXY 11-16-07, 01:22 PM	2) One AoO a round consisting of all the heads attacking.It would get two of these. It has Combat Reflexes, and a Dex of 12.
rimble 11-16-07, 01:25 PM	It would get two of these. It has Combat Reflexes, and a Dex of 12. Yeah, that's what I'm not so sure about. It's sort of like they created a new Combat Reflexes for multi-headed creatures, because nothing in the Feat itself refers to affecting multi-headed creatures this way. I was imagining this new 'Multi-Headed Combat Reflexes' Feat doesn't grant you more AoO's a round, but allows you to use all your heads in an AoO. Let's say if the Hydra had 'Combat Reflexes' and also 'Multi-Headed Combat Reflexes' that it could take two multi-headed AoO's a round. Ugh...I think I'm confusing myself...
aBhorTioN 11-16-07, 03:31 PM	I'm really quite torn between the two...I think when I ran the Red Hand of Doom that I used option 1. When I ran the Red Hand (Awesome campaign, btw) I used all the hydra's heads in one AoO, much to the chagrine of the monk. Alas, the party had no uber-tripping barb, just a sad, sad little monk who tried to grapple the hydra...and got eaten alive. After that, I interpreted the hydra's Combat Reflexes to mean this : Since it only had a dex score of 12, and the entry reads, "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity", I say its a special ruling specifically for this monster, allowing it to make one attack with one head per AoO, to a maximum of however many heads it has. Otherwise, all the monks and barbs in the world would be snacks as a nine headed hydra chomped down all nine times in 6 seconds. And its not even it's turn yet...
jaelis 11-16-07, 03:32 PM	Personally, I don't know what the 3.5 rule is supposed to mean (and I didn't play 3.0), but if I'm DM, a hydra uses only one head per AoO (but gets a number of AoOs per round equal to the number of heads). Because that's what I think makes sense.
Merestil Haye 11-16-07, 04:27 PM	Rules Compendium page 13 : Not only does the Hydra have the Combat Reflexes feat but it can use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.Seems to me from that that the Hydra is meant to be able to use multiple heads for an AoO. (Parenthetical notes have been omitted from the quote).
rimble 11-16-07, 04:31 PM	Personally, I don't know what the 3.5 rule is supposed to mean (and I didn't play 3.0), but if I'm DM, a hydra uses only one head per AoO (but gets a number of AoOs per round equal to the number of heads). Because that's what I think makes sense. You know I agreed with that (earlier today even)...but now I'm convincing myself otherwise...because although it's a neat feature that a Five-Headed Hydra can get five AoO's a round, and a Twelve-Headed Hydra can get twelve AoO's a round...well...it's just not going to happen. It's sort of a non-ability. So for ultimate scary flexibility, how about he gets a number of AoO's equal to his number of heads, and he can use as many as he wants in any given AoO, but each head can only be used once for an AoO in any given round. So the five-headed Hydra can take one big five-headed AoO in a round, or a three-head and a two-head AoO in a round, or five one-head AoO's. This maintains the epic coolness of a Twelve-Headed Hydra snatching up commoners left and right with all his heads, or the horrible hero-crushing ability of multiple heads snapping onto one tough opponent at once. Since Hydra's are pretty dumb, maybe make it a random number of heads on any given AoO until they are all used for the round. That sounds fun.
jaelis 11-16-07, 05:57 PM	Seems to me from that that the Hydra is meant to be able to use multiple heads for an AoO. Just to make the counterpoint, if I had a fighter armed with a longsword, a spiked shield, and armor spikes, who had Combat Reflexes and a Dex of 16, then I could quite accurately say that he can use all of his weapons for attacks of opportunity, without meaning that he can use them all at once. Or to put another way, if the hydra could only make one bite as a standard action attack, then I think everyone would accept that the rule in question meant that hydra's used combat reflexes in a special way, where it allows one AoO per head rather than one AoO per point of Dex bonus. But with the special form of attack, I don't know.
Zathress 11-16-07, 06:12 PM	Rules Compendium page 13 : Seems to me from that that the Hydra is meant to be able to use multiple heads for an AoO. Not only does the Hydra have the Combat Reflexes feat but it can use all its heads for attacks of opportunity. At long last wizards has answered the question. The horse is dead!
mvincent 11-18-07, 07:23 PM	At long last wizards has answered the question. The horse is dead!Yup: we have an actual ruling. However, my query was more about what did the writer's of 3.0 intend? From my own readings, I've noticed that the rules compendium was (unfortunately) poorly researched and does not appear to have any insight into the writer's intent. Although I'll use the answer (since I'm a stickler for following official clarifications), the horse lives for me. Long live the horse.
aBhorTioN 11-19-07, 04:09 PM	This maintains the epic coolness of a Twelve-Headed Hydra snatching up commoners left and right with all his heads, or the horrible hero-crushing ability of multiple heads snapping onto one tough opponent at once. Since Hydra's are pretty dumb, maybe make it a random number of heads on any given AoO until they are all used for the round. That sounds fun. That DOES sound hella fun. Imagine if like one of the heads made a grapple attempt, picked up the poor little commoners, and had another head attack the grappled dude, and they like ripped him in half...ooooo I can see it now. Where my MM?
Nom 11-19-07, 11:11 PM	Rules Compendium page 13 : Seems to me from that that the Hydra is meant to be able to use multiple heads for an AoO. Not only does the Hydra have the Combat Reflexes feat but it can use all its heads for attacks of opportunity. (Parenthetical notes have been omitted from the quote).Does appear from the context that they do mean "all its heads on each AoO", but unfortunately all they've done (or that you've quoted) is re-state the ambiguous text from the MM. The double use of the plural is poor grammar precisely because it can mean either multiple 1-1 relationships or multiple 1-many relationships.
Bopple 11-19-07, 11:29 PM	While you are grammatically right, the context seems to be clear. You don't have to clear up what is already clear - you can make AoO with any of your weapons - it does not even issue a question. Seriously, is there anyone who want to ask if a hydra can make an AoO with its first head, but not with its fifth head?
runestar 11-20-07, 12:49 AM	Plus, the hydra entry did state that they wanted to be make it threatening for people who did not have the improved sunder feat. Provoking only one attack from 1 head does not sound very threatening to me. Provoking one AoO where the hydra gets to attack with all its heads? Now, that is my idea of threatening...:cool:
jaelis 11-20-07, 06:34 AM	While you are grammatically right, the context seems to be clear. You don't have to clear up what is already clear - you can make AoO with any of your weapons - it does not even issue a question. Seriously, is there anyone who want to ask if a hydra can make an AoO with its first head, but not with its fifth head? It's honestly not so clear to me. Without a special rule, the hydra could only make AoOs with two heads (due to it's limited Dex). So it wouldn't be unreasonable if the rule did mean "can make an AoO with each head."
Bopple 11-20-07, 06:39 AM	Yeah, but as I said, that is a default rule which does not require any clarification or further explanation. Do you really think they wanted to emphasize the default rule? And that with an example of hydra? I don't think so.
jaelis 11-20-07, 09:09 AM	Yeah, but as I said, that is a default rule which does not require any clarification or further explanation. Do you really think they wanted to emphasize the default rule? And that with an example of hydra? I don't think so. I don't understand... how it is a default rule? The default rule would (perhaps) be that a hydra could make two AoOs, each with one head. The special rule might be one of: - A hydra can make one AoO per head, each time with one head. - A hydra can make two AoOs per round, each time with all heads. Neither of those are the normal behavior of Combat Reflexes, and would therefore need to be called out. I don't see how the Rules Compendium text clarifies which is the case. Actually, given that the hydra's "Attack" entry uses all heads, I think the stronger case is that the "default" behavior of Combat Reflexes is the second option above. If there were no special rule given, I think that is how you would have to play it. The fact that the special rule is given therefore favors the first option. Is that perhaps what you are saying?
Bopple 11-20-07, 09:40 AM	The default rule would (perhaps) be that a hydra could make two AoOs, each with one head. Yes. As such, they wouldn't have wanted to emphasize this default rule. Thus, it is ruled out. - A hydra can make one AoO per head, each time with one head. How can this mean it can make multiple AoOs with all its heads? - A hydra can make two AoOs per round, each time with all heads. Seems right to me.
jaelis 11-20-07, 10:46 AM	How can this mean it can make multiple AoOs with all its heads? See my post 15 above: Just to make the counterpoint, if I had a fighter armed with a longsword, a spiked shield, and armor spikes, who had Combat Reflexes and a Dex of 16, then I could quite accurately say that he can use all of his weapons for attacks of opportunity, without meaning that he can use them all at once.
Bopple 11-20-07, 10:49 AM	Yes, you can make AoO with any weapon you currently wield. That is also a part of default rule. Do you really think they would have used hydra to clarify such instance?
runestar 11-20-07, 10:53 AM	I find the scenario of a hydra making AoOs very similar to the improved whirlwind feat. Bear with me for a moment. mproved Whirlwind Attack [Epic] Prerequisites Int 13, Dex 23, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack. Benefit As a standard action, you can make one melee attack for every five points of your base attack bonus (including epic attack bonus, round fractions down). You cannot attack any one opponent more than once as part of this action. These attacks (as well as all other attacks made until the start of your next turn) suffer a -4 penalty. When using the Improved Whirlwind feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other spells or abilities (such as Cleave or the haste spell). Since these attacks are made as part of a standard action, you can’t make a 5-foot step between any two of the attacks. Note the bolded part. Now assume that for this discussion, its activation time of 1 standard action is now just 1 attack action instead (so it can be used for an AoO). This would mean that you could make the equivalent of a full attack (somewhat, subject to all sorts of limitations) during an AoO. Isn't this not at all unlike the scenario where a hydra makes an AoO with all its heads, the same way it attacks with all of them as an attack action?:)
jaelis 11-20-07, 11:00 AM	Yes, you can make AoO with any weapon you currently wield. That is also a part of default rule. Do you really think they would have used hydra to clarify such instance? I can see we are not communicating very well about this. I agree that they would not have stated the simple rule to simply reiterate the general rule. Therefore, hydras don't use combat reflexes in the normal way. But I see two non-normal ways that Combat Reflexes could work in this case, both of which seem equally in agreement with the text. Either 1) The hydra gets the normal number of AoOs (here 2), but each AoO consists of multiple attacks, or 2) The hydra gets more AoOs than normal (here equal to the number of heads), but each AoO consists of a single attack. In either case, the hydra gains the ability to use all its heads for AoOs, an ability that it would not have if it used Combat Reflexes in the normal way. (Because if is used CR in the normal way, it would only be able to use 2 heads for AoOs in a given round, not all of them.)
Bopple 11-20-07, 11:08 AM	So basically, it can mean it overcomes the normal limit of number of AoO's per round, regardless of its Dex bonus? That's what you say?
jaelis 11-20-07, 12:09 PM	Yes, that's what I think it could mean.
Bopple 11-20-07, 06:49 PM	Don't you think that kind of interpretation is deviated too much from what is written? Wouldn't it have been something like this? "Hydra can make number of AoO's per round, equal to the number of its heads at the moment, regardless of its Dex bonus." If it had been mentioned only once, then perhaps your interpretation might have a point(still slim, but..). Do you really believe that they used the same wording to mean such a deviated notion, even when clarifying hydra's AoO in Rules Compendium?
Nom 11-20-07, 07:43 PM	FWIW, when I read the hydra rules, having not previously read 3rd Ed hydras or any commentary, I read "Combat Reflexes: can use all its heads for AoOs" as "May make 1 AoO per head per round, but not more than 1 per opportunity". That is, "this is exactly as Combat Reflexes, except the number of AoOs is #heads not 1 + Dex mod". It made sense, it fit within the spirit of the rules, and it was meaningfully analogous to Combat Reflexes. It was only once I looked on the boards that it even occurred to me that it could mean "Each AoO = all heads, not like Combat Reflexes at all". From the surrounding RC text, it looks like they have clarified it to mean the latter. Which is fine, except "clarifying" by restating the original broken text as if it were actually clear serves to undo the clarification, since it puts the authority back on the broken text rather than on the commentary making the ruling! * This text means "X" - OK - additional authority is being added to the text. * This text means "X", as is clear from the text - not OK (begging the question) - the interpretation is being justified based on the contested text, as if it were not contested.
jaelis 11-20-07, 11:06 PM	Don't you think that kind of interpretation is deviated too much from what is written? I honestly don't... like Nom, that's what I initially just thought it meant. If I said "A secretary's typing skills allow him to use all his fingers for typing," I would mean that the fingers are being used one at at time, not all hitting keys at once. If I said "Bobby spent all his quarters quarters gumballs" I would assume (admittedly with no good reason) that each gumball cost one quarter; I certainly wouldn't feel the sentence implied each gumball cost more than one quarter. If I said "I had to use all the car's gears to climb the hill," I would mean one at a time, not all at once. Do you really feel like those example sentences are badly expressed? I haven't seen the full RC text, so I can't really comment on that. The quote that has been given doesn't seem to add anything though.
Bopple 11-20-07, 11:55 PM	If I said "A secretary's typing skills allow him to use all his fingers for typing," I would mean that the fingers are being used one at at time, not all hitting keys at once. If I said "Bobby spent all his quarters quarters gumballs" I would assume (admittedly with no good reason) that each gumball cost one quarter; I certainly wouldn't feel the sentence implied each gumball cost more than one quarter. If I said "I had to use all the car's gears to climb the hill," I would mean one at a time, not all at once. Do you really feel like those example sentences are badly expressed? There are certain differences. 1. People don't bother themselves to clarify those normal instances, over again. People bother themselves to clarify again when it is not normal. And that even they put them in a book like Rules Compendium? And that with hydra's specific case? I seriously doubt. Using all your fingers at once does not speed up your typing. It just messes up. There is no argument or ambiguity needing clarification. But would you bother yourself to explain what you really mean with secretary case? 2. Better comparison would be this; "A juggler's juggling skills allow him to use all his balls for juggling." Perhaps you would say it just means he can juggle his balls one by one, thus only one ball at one time. But seriously, any untrained man can juggle one ball at one time(unless he has some disease or lost his limbs). Yeah, logically, you cannot rule it out. But practically, it's a non-issue.
jaelis 11-21-07, 12:26 AM	But practically, it's a non-issue. Your point is well taken... in all my examples the meaning is clear because the other meaning would be nonsensical. The same is true in your juggling example. In all those cases, you (and I) are using extra-linguistic reasoning to decide what the sentences mean. And that is fine. But you are also applying that kind of reasoning to the hydra case. I think you have a predilection to think that the hydra gets to use all its heads for each AoO, so you are using that extra information to settle the ambiguous wording. My point is that the extra information itself isn't clear, because unlike all my examples and your example, there really are two reasonable different interpretations. As our examples jointly prove, the wording itself could work either way. So we should really be talking about the extra information, and from what I see, there is not enough there to settle the question.
Bopple 11-21-07, 12:49 AM	Yeah, but there is a big difference. You are under assumption that they used that kind of twisted wording(for what purpose? giving logics lesson?) And even that twice. With my interpretation, I don't have to think over to find a logical riddle.
Nom 11-21-07, 07:00 AM	Or, to put it another way, if I intended to write a rule granting multiple attacks on an AoO, I wouldn't tie it to Combat Reflexes, a feat that grants multiple AoOs but goes out of its way to say you can only make one attack for each. Oh, and notice the use of the word "each" in the sentence above to stress that I mean "per AoO", not "in total". The explicit use of the singular (not the plural) disambiguates. Which, incidentally, is the flaw in your example, Bopple. "A juggler's juggling skills allow him to use all his balls for juggling."If we read the second "juggling" as singular, it is unambiguous. There is only one "juggling", so all the balls map to that one. If, however, we read it as plural, then it is equally valid to read it as "he can juggle a wide variety of balls (without specifying how many at once)" as "he can juggle them all at once". Balls we might guess, but how about "In his show, he juggles kittens and chainsaws"? Does he do it "at the same time", or just each during the show? Having not read the RC, I have no idea on how they clarified it, but to my reading the "all heads per AoO" flows naturally from the MM text in the same way that treacle flows naturally from brick. Errata = good. Restating poorly written rule while asserting it is clear = bad.
Bopple 11-21-07, 08:24 AM	I did not say the way they handled it was good. Neither I said your reasoning was logically flawed. But just because it's not grammatically good enough, you choose a method of interpretation which wouldn't be used in daily life but only used in logical riddle books? That is just beyond me. Come on. It's not either a logic book or grammar book. It is a game book.
jaelis 11-21-07, 08:40 AM	But just because it's not grammatically good enough, you choose a method of interpretation which is not used in daily life but only used in logical riddle books? That is just beyond me. Nom and I have both given you a bunch of sentences that show the interpretation we are talking about is perfectly normal in daily life.
Bopple 11-21-07, 08:46 AM	Perfectly normal? People around you would normally say, "Not only does the Hydra have the Combat Reflexes feat but it can use all its heads for attacks of opportunity", instead of "Hydra can make number of AoO's per round, equal to the number of its heads at the moment, regardless of its Dex bonus" or "Hydra can ignore and exceed the normal limit of number of AoO's per round, up to the number of its head at the moment"? This kind of interpretation method is only used in logic books or logical riddle books. Furthermore, note the part "Not only does the Hydra have the Combat Reflexes feat" It implies that hydra gains the normal benefit of Combat Reflexes. But in your interpretation, Combat Reflexes does not do what it is supposed to do. Normally, you really say in such a contradicting way? I am not sure if we are on the same planet.
jaelis 11-21-07, 09:22 AM	People around you would normally say, "Not only does the Hydra have the Combat Reflexes feat but it can use all its heads for attacks of opportunity", instead of "Hydra can make number of AoO's per round, equal to the number of its heads at the moment, regardless of its Dex bonus" or "Hydra can ignore and exceed the normal limit of number of AoO's per round, up to the number of its head at the moment"? I agree the language is awkward. But not so far off as you are saying, and it's not right for your interpretation either. They should have said either: "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads when it makes an attack of opportunity." or "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to make an attack of opportunity with each head." I am not sure if we are on the same planet. I'm surprised you feel that way. I still think it is because you are using extra-linguistic reasoning to interpret the line without being fully aware of it.
Bopple 11-21-07, 09:32 AM	I agree the language is awkward. But not so far off as you are saying, and it's not right for your interpretation either. They should have said either: "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads when it makes an attack of opportunity." or "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to make an attack of opportunity with each head." I did not say my interpretation was perfect. But note that messing up plurality is one of the most common mistakes people make. On the other hand, your interpretation is far from normal or common. It can be only found in logical riddle books. Logically, I cannot say you are wrong. I didn't say you were logically wrong. But practically/statistically, your interpretation is virtually vain for a gaming book, especially when considering the fact that they used the same wording twice and they implied that hydra gains the normal benefit of Combat Reflexes. Another factor is, WoTC is very careful when something exceeds the normal limit of certain numbers and they always specify it. Seriously, let alone WoTC, everyone gets cautious, when showing an exceptional number that exceeds the normal limit of a certain matter. People don't make such a mind-boggling logical riddle, to explain it. And that twice? No way. I'm surprised you feel that way. I still think it is because you are using extra-linguistic reasoning to interpret the line without being fully aware of it. As I said above, it is not a logic book or a grammar book.
jaelis 11-21-07, 10:21 AM	On the other hand, your interpretation is far from normal or common. It can be only found in logical riddle books. But Nom and I gave you a slew of normal sentences that use that same grammatical construction for the other interpretation. You seriously think that the lines "A secretary's typing skills allow him to use all his fingers for typing." "Bobby spent all his quarters on gumballs." "I had to use all the car's gears to climb the hill." "In his show, he juggles kittens and chainsaws." would only show up in logical riddle books? What keeps me from making the same claim about your interpretation?
runestar 11-21-07, 10:51 AM	I think you people give the designers too much credit regarding their questionable grasp of the english language...:P
Bopple 11-21-07, 07:35 PM	But Nom and I gave you a slew of normal sentences that use that same grammatical construction for the other interpretation. You seriously think that the lines "A secretary's typing skills allow him to use all his fingers for typing." "Bobby spent all his quarters on gumballs." "I had to use all the car's gears to climb the hill." "In his show, he juggles kittens and chainsaws." would only show up in logical riddle books? What keeps me from making the same claim about your interpretation? That's different. First of all, in 3 of your examples, only one side is feasible, in real. Do you seriously think typing with all your fingers at once or using all your gears at once are really comparable to this case? And all your examples are just about confusion of plurality. But your interpretation about Hydra's AoO clarification goes further. It breaks the normal rule and limit of Combat Reflexes itself, without actually saying directly. None of your examples does that kind of breach.
Nom 11-22-07, 03:33 AM	But your interpretation about Hydra's AoO clarification goes further. It breaks the normal rule and limit of Combat Reflexes itself, without actually saying directly.Agree. One example modifies how the limit of Combat Reflexes is calculated. The other does something that is orthogonal to Combat Reflexes. Which makes more sense under the heading "Combat Reflexes"? Addendum: this discussion is about the 3.5 MM text, not the MIC text. Based (solely) on the quote provided by mvincent, my main objection to the MIC text is that they didn't errata the faulty Hydra text, but instead appealed to it to support their interpretation.
Tordak 11-26-07, 09:41 AM	I'm sorry if I resurect a few days old thread (I had problem accessing the forum from some computer), I think there's a few bumb that need to be ironed out. Also, I read most of the post but not all, so if I say thing to which people already agree I apologize. To me, this is mostly about the AoO rules. First, when you make an AoO, you get a single melee attack. That's it. Not an attack but one, and only one, melee attack. Hydra's ability enable it to : - Make all of its attack at the end of a charge (similar to the pounce ability) and; - make all of its attack even if the hydra moves during the round. That is, the hydra gets to make all its attack when taking the full attack action (full round action, regular rule for attacking with all the creature's natural weapons), or when attacking as a standard action (usually refer to as the attack action). The hydra attack action can be use to make all of its natural attacks. An hydra does not make (# of head) attacks as a single melee attack, it makes (# of head) melee attack as a standard action. AoO are not standard action, and a single melee attack cannot be replaced by 12 melee attacks. Second (and very important point), combat reflexes or not, no creature is allowed more then 1 AoO per opportunity. A sunder attempt represent 1 such opportunity. The Hydra is entitled to a single melee attack in such occasion, meaning one head gets to attack (unless it has other natural weapon, which I don't think it does). If the hydra gets more then what is specify above, this would represent a significant, major change to the rules. A change of such magnitude would call for a specific ruling in the ability description, not some vague reference to a feat at the end of the hydra section. That's what they did for the attack action, since you must normally take the full attack action to make use of all your natural weapons. Since the Hydra is pretty much the only creature with that ability, I don't think they didn't write it to save time and work. It is worth pointing that the link combat reflexes on the SRD page in both the hydra and the AoO description leads to the same feat; I believe this means they are considered the same feat (only the mechanic of calculating the additional attacks changes). I think that the interpretation of the feat that goes along the rules the most is that of Bopple (also mine), hydra's extra AoO in a round are determined by the number of head, not the dex bonus. It could be both dex and number of head at most, meaning 1 + # of head + dex bonus AoO per round, but it is most likely not 2 AoOs with 12 heads. I think the hydra is intimidating enough having 5+ AoOs to use against almost every attempt at severing one of its heads.
Merestil Haye 11-26-07, 10:14 AM	Tordak, you've missed the point about the Hydra's ability. To a hydra, a single attack is made with all its heads. That's why it can attack with all heads on a charge and make a single attack with all heads. It also means that when it makes an AoO it does so with all its heads. Combat Reflexes means it can do that twice per round as an AoO instead of once. Frankly, if Hydras aren't able to do this, their CR is too high. They really aren't scary without it.
jaelis 11-26-07, 11:17 AM	To a hydra, a single attack is made with all its heads. That's why it can attack with all heads on a charge and make a single attack with all heads. It also means that when it makes an AoO it does so with all its heads. Combat Reflexes means it can do that twice per round as an AoO instead of once. This is a pretty reasonable point, and probably the strictest RAW interpretation. But it does require that you need to ignore the "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity," since by your argument, a hydra's ability to use all it's heads for AoOs has nothing to do with it's Combat Reflexes feat. That makes me not so sure if it is really the intended meaning.
Tordak 11-26-07, 11:30 AM	That would mean that hydra makes a single attack roll for all its heads. But I don't think it's the case, unless I missed something. They make as many attack rolls as they have heads. Also, the fact that it makes all its attacks at the end of a charge doesn't mean it makes a single attack with all its heads, it makes (# head) attacks. The line for the hydra ability is Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round. Usually, creature attacking with all of their natural weapon must choose the full attack action and take penalty on their attack (-5 or -2 with multi attack). The Hydra doesn't have to make a full attack, and all attack are at full AB. The attack entry give the single attack a creature makes with the attack action, and in most case the attack it makes as AoO; that's because generaly creature have one main attack they use. Also, making AoO is not taking the attack action. It goes against the AoO ruling to have more than one attack per opportunity (my second point). Like I said it would be a major break from the rules, something worth writting a few clearer lines about in the hydra's description. The fact that it would get those kind of attack of opportunity would not call for a major increase in CR, because there are too many ways around attack of opportunity. The fact that they can use all head as a standard action is sufficient to boost the CR.
Bopple 11-26-07, 11:44 AM	No, there are always exceptions to general rules. For example, Double Hit feat allows you to hit twice per opportunity. Hydra is another example. Heck, even hydra's normal attack mode is an exception to general rules. Moreover, they summarized it into a single line. And it does not actually exploit the opportunity more than once. Think of a Siamese quintuplets(theoretically speaking). They can act and move its body part freely, unless it is a shared portion. Hydra is no big difference. All its heads can attack on a single attack situation. Why not on AoO? It's an internally consistent ruling. And look at the description. It always says it can attack with all its heads. For most purposes, you interpret it as it can attack with its heads, 'at once'. But you don't, when it's about AoO? Why not? It basically uses the same phrase. What's the difference?
Tordak 11-26-07, 12:10 PM	What is the description for the Double Hit feat? Cause there are exception to the general rules, and it is usually clearly stated in the ability description (take the Sweeping Strikes class feature of the War Mind (XPH) for example). But I suppose it could be interpreted that way. I suppose the line about combat reflexes feat could mean it uses all its heads with every attack of opportunity. But I still have a hard time with the attack of the hydra being a single attack, because - it's more than one attack roll; - it can be directed against more than one opponents; - Only three thing are specified in the entries for the Hydra : can attack with all its heads as an attack action, as a full attack action and at the end of a charge (no penalty even if it moves or charges). AoOs still grant you a single melee attack, which is unresolved from what I can read. Also the lines 'Attack with all its heads with no penalty' and 'uses all its heads for attacks of opportunity' could easily mean 2 differents things. And once again, they are being the laziest people on earth if the did not make the simple effort to write 'every' in front of 'attacks of opportnity' in that one line.
mvincent 11-26-07, 12:47 PM	All: the 3.5 hydra has previously been discussed at length in many other threads, so most of these points have been noted before without resolving the issue. I'm glad that the Rule Compendium finally addressed it (the intent of the text in the Rule Compendium seems clear enough), even though the Rule Compendium appears poorly researched and rife with errors... an answer is an answer. That does not make me any less curious though: 1) What was the intent of the 3.0 hydra 2) What happened when it was converted to 3.5 (especially in regard to the CR) the hydra entry did state that they wanted to be make it threatening for people who did not have the improved sunder feat.Can you quote the relevant text? Do you mean the SRD entry, or a sidebar in the MM (i.e. that is not in the SRD)? Does the 3.0 MM have anything similar?
Kratch 11-26-07, 01:59 PM	2. Better comparison would be this; "A juggler's juggling skills allow him to use all his balls for juggling." Perhaps you would say it just means he can juggle his balls one by one, thus only one ball at one time. But seriously, any untrained man can juggle one ball at one time(unless he has some disease or lost his limbs). Yeah, logically, you cannot rule it out. But practically, it's a non-issue. It would actually be more akin to saying a jugglers juggling skills allows him to juggle balls, rings, pins, torches and knives. does that mean he can juggle all those items simultaneously (1 of each), or individually (say 5 balls at a time, or 3 knives at a time, but not balls and knives at the same time). now, with that said, I do agree with your interpretation, now. but in the beginning, I was stumped (and avoided using hydras because of it). I do not believe it's wording is as clear as your pretending it is.
Rebel581 11-26-07, 02:31 PM	The Hydra's already scary enough with only one AoO and using all of the heads. The Hydra specifically overwrites the normal Combat Reflexes feat so they don't get both their heads and their Dex bonus. It just can't be interpreted like that since it's one or the other. Then there's all heads in one AoO or one per AoO. I think it's the latter since if it's the former the Hydra becomes way too hard for the CR it is at. Plus, getting attacked by 5-12 heads as a standard action is already scary enough. The reason they suggest Improved Sunder is because the Hydra will always have an AoO to use on you if you don't have it. The way to make a Hydra completely obsolete is with a Stoneskin spell which isn't even gotten until 7th level. This makes later Hydra's with more heads obsolete (at the cost of money and knowing that you're going to face the Hydra) but isn't accessible against the 5 headed Hydra. And there's the AoO from 10 ft. reach and then there's the AoO from Sunder if you don't have Improved Sunder.
Zathress 11-26-07, 06:44 PM	Alright here is something overlooked out the MM or SRD. Under the attack entry in "reading monster entries" in the MM or SRD it says. This line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action. In most cases, this is also the attack the creature uses when making an attack of opportunity as well. *http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#attack If you wish to read the entire entry. Under a hydras stats (x being the number of heads, y being the attack bonus. Attack: X Heads +y melee Full Attack: X heads +y melee Ie: 12 headed hydra Attack: 12 bites +17 melee (2d8+6) Full Attack: 12 bites +17 melee (2d8+6) So right there with the MM in hand you can prove a hydra makes an AoO with all its heads the line in the monster entry. Near as I can tell hydras are the only monster that lists multiple attacks in the attack entry. "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity” Isn't even necessary and a likely left over from more 3.0 or previous revisions that have added to confusion.
mvincent 11-26-07, 07:13 PM	Alright here is something overlooked out the MM or SRD.That was discussed in previous threads, and was acknowledged in point #7 of the initial post for this thread. Isn't even necessary and a likely left over from more 3.0 or previous revisions that have added to confusion.That was part of my original point: to my knowledge, the 3.0 hydra did not attack with all it's heads on an AoO (a fact which likely wasn't recognized by the converter). It's as if the various WotC writer's all had different heads, each not knowing what the other had been doing.
runestar 11-26-07, 08:52 PM	the 3.0 hydra did not attack with all it's heads on an AoO (a fact which likely wasn't recognized by the converter). It did not do so because your DM played it that way, or because the designer always meant it that way?:P
Bopple 11-26-07, 09:06 PM	What is the description for the Double Hit feat? It just says you make an off-hand attack(its a TWF-tree feat) when you make an AoO. There is no further explanation about limit of Combat Reflexes or AoO. Compared to this, hydra's explanation is more detailed(and it's covered again in RC).
Tordak 11-26-07, 10:06 PM	Alright here is something overlooked out the MM or SRD. Under the attack entry in "reading monster entries" in the MM or SRD it says. Originally Posted by SRD This line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action. In most cases, this is also the attack the creature uses when making an attack of opportunity as well. This is the exact line I use to write my earlier post. Bear with me here. The first line says "This line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action.". First, it says that because as a general rule, you make a single attack as an attack action. What is usually there is the main attack the creature makes, if it has many natural weapons. For hydra, there's no 'main' attack, all the bites are the same, and the hydra makes all of its attacks as an attack action; it gets many attacks, I don't think this was meant to redifine 'single'. Even more important, AoOs are not attack action (there not even actions at all). This line doesn't help in regard to AoOs, it tell us nothing about every single attack the hydra make. The second sentence, "In most cases, this is also the attack the creature uses when making an attack of opportunity as well." That's it, in most case. You can't read this line by itself, you also need to consider AoOs' description (a single melee attack, one per opportunity). This is hardly most case. As a matter of fact it is definetly the kind of 'not the case'. The 2 above lines are not sufficient to determine alone if you get all attacks as attacks of opportunity. The only hope for a hint is the last line you mentioned. It just says you make an off-hand attack(its a TWF-tree feat) when you make an AoO. I have read the feat, and it's not as blurry as you said (it not any less clear than the hydra issue). Whenever you take and attack of opportunity, you can choose to make a second attack with your off-hand weapon provide you take the penalty for 2-weapon fighting. You don't have to do it. You can do it on every AoO. The only vague point is to know if this attack counts towards your number of AoO, but it doesn't specify that and so it seems it does not count toward your limit of AoO per round.
Bopple 11-26-07, 10:33 PM	Hmm? That was not the point, in the first place. The point is; 1. Attacking more than once per opportunity is precedented. 2. It does not say anything like "This is against the normal limit of one attack per opportunity. Blah Blah." The only vague point is they didn't used the singular form to specify it, in hydra's case. On the other hand, with your interpretation, hydra can make AoO 5 times or more per round, regardless of its Dex score. Yet expressing it in "It can uses its all its heads for AoO?" Seriously, is there any similar case of such an indirect rule-bending regarding the limit of AoO or Combat Reflexes? Heck, I have never seen such an indirect ruling in the D&D3.0/3.5 like that, let alone AoO or Combat Reflexes.
mvincent 11-26-07, 11:04 PM	It did not do so because your DM played it that way, or because the designer always meant it that way?:PThat is the question I posed in the initial post of the thread. Everyone I knew played it that way in 3.0, and it certainly appeared to be the way the designer meant (for reasons also given in the initial post). I was just checking to see if there was a (3.0) counter-opinion out there. Anyone want to ask Skip (or one of the other 3.0 designers)?
Merestil Haye 11-27-07, 08:16 AM	I suppose my belief arises out of the fact that the Hydra is one creature. When the Hydra gets an AoO, it's the whole creature that gets the AoO, not just one head. It can take any number of attacks from 1 to the total number of heads at each opportunity. You could argue that each head is treated as a separate creature with its own set of AoOs each round (normally 2) and each time a creature provokes, each head decides individually. That is more powerful, but involves the player concerned, usually the DM, in far more bookeeping as he has to keep track of each head's AoOs separately. (The scariest hydra I've seen was a PC with the Blood Wind spell who Polymorphed into a Hydra. But he won't be doing that again in a hurry, since he was killed last session and his soul swallowed by the weapon. :( )
solbergb 11-27-07, 11:45 AM	No matter how you slice it there are two possible rulings. I personally believe the first ruling is what was intended. Ruling 1. Combat reflexes on a hydra is normally weak because they have a low dex score and would get very few extra attacks. The extra wording uses the heads instead of the dex score to determine how many AOO's can be taken in a round. Movement can only provoke one AOO, but somebody who moved and cast a spell (not defensively) would provoke two of the AOO's. Normally though, this rule means that the Hydra will get a lot of AOO's per turn, but only get to use one head per AOO. Ruling 2 Hydras get dex-limited AOOs (I think they're about dex 12, so they get two AOO's per round). The extra wording means however that when they get an AOO, they get to use all of their heads (as they can do on a charge). Ruling #2 makes AOO's extremely lethal, but you can use them up pretty quick (maybe sending in summoned monsters or your high AC guy to "draw" them and having squishier characters move in when they're exhaustd). Ruling #1 means you probably won't run a hydra out of AOO's but each AOO isn't so bad. As a GM, you have to decide which you prefer. The rules as written can be equally easily read to mean either ruling.
Tordak 11-27-07, 01:01 PM	I suppose my belief arises out of the fact that the Hydra is one creature. When the Hydra gets an AoO, it's the whole creature that gets the AoO, not just one head. It can take any number of attacks from 1 to the total number of heads at each opportunity. I'm really not saying your wrong, your whole argument makes sense, but that little part is a bit faulty. As one example, take the chimera : it has 3 heads, 2 that bite, one with a gore, and other natural attacks, and it's one whole creautre, yet it does not get the kind of benefit and hydra gets, whether in AoOs or attack actions. If I remember correctly, even aspect of Tiamat, with their 5 dragon heads, don't get that kind of treatment. Even if the whole creature gets the attack of opportunity, it still choose what is making it (I might be wrong about the aspect of Tiamat, haven't seen it for a while, if so I'm sorry and I take it back). Boople, I know what you mean, but what I mean is in the case of the feat, what you get to do when you get AoOs is clear. Also, I did not have time to go through any books lately, but I sure there are other example of feat being still the same feat and respecting the same rules but having a little different mechanic behind it. As a related example, take concentration skill and undead. Many undead use their charisma bonus to determine the bonus with the skill; it is still the same skill, it is use in the same way, and respect the same rules but you use a different stats to determine the bonus you get. It's an example of a case where a particular monster (in that case a type of creature) use a different stat to determine the advantage of the same ability. This is very similar to the view that the hydra gets additionnal AoOs through the combat reflexes feat but uses the # of head instead of dex bonus to determine how many extra AoOs it gets in a round. Changes in feats/skills basic mechanic are not unheard of either. I think this will not be solve because both side have good points. And as solbergb stated, your trading apples for oranges. One way works well against few attackers, the other way it gets to be spread out on a group or on more opportunities.
mvincent 11-27-07, 01:09 PM	I'm really not saying your wrong, your whole argument makes sense, but that little part is a bit faulty. As one example, take the chimera : it has 3 heads, 2 that bite, one with a gore, and other natural attacks, and it's one whole creautre, yet it does not get the kind of benefit and hydra gets, whether in AoOs or attack actions. If I remember correctly, even aspect of Tiamat, with their 5 dragon heads, don't get that kind of treatment.Even Demogorgon (who actually is effectively two separate creatures) doesn't have that ability. Ettin's too. But anyway: this has all been discussed many times before, and deviates from the OP. Anybody want to discuss the 3.0 hydra?
Zathress 11-28-07, 05:44 AM	Lets look at this line again. "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity” This is a simple logic problem that can be broken down into 2 parts. "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to" (A) "use all its heads for attacks of opportunity" (B) The first line "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to" Is simply the requirement (A) it doesn't change the meaning of B. And B doesn't change the meaning of A either IF the line was "A hydra's cream cheese allows it to" It wouldn't change how many bites are involved in a hydras attack of opportunity. It simply means that the hydra needs cream cheese to be able to do it instead of the combat reflexes feat. The second part is the only really important part. How many meanings does this line have? "[b]use all its heads for attacks of opportunity[b]" I can't see any other meaning then when a Hydra makes an attack of opportunity it using all its heads. "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity" There is NEVER any mention in the line that a hydra gains any more attacks of opportunity, that combat reflexes feat is changed in anyway. Where does it say they gain any more attacks of opportunity. Nowhere. But it does say "Use all its heads for attacks of opportunity" The combat reflexes is just what lets it do it. If you somehow prevented a Hydra from using combat reflexes it would lose its ability to attack with all its heads during an AoO.
Tordak 11-28-07, 01:27 PM	Yes. But there are also very clear lines in the AoO description that state ' ... an AoO is a single melee attack...' and '... only get one per opportunity...'. A single melee attack is determined by a single dice roll (well, plus damage roll if it works). The hydra ability when taking the attack action, full attack action and at the end of a charge require many attack rolls. Unless there's something very different about this ability (like one roll for all heads, which they would have very likely mentioned), it will also requires many attack rolls. That's where the confusion arraise. For the example of the Double Hit Feat (provided by Bopple), the feat clearly states : when taking an AoO, you get to make an additional attack with your off-hand weapon, at the same time, against the same opponent (the one that provokes the attack of opportunity);of course you take penalty for 2-weapons fighting. This is an example where you get to make more than one single attack on an attack of opportunity, and it is very clear from the description of the feat. Clarifying that in the hydra's description would have taken only a few additional words. I believe it is required because it strays much from the regular AoO rules. That line about the hydra would have been clear if it was "An hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for an attack of opportunity", or " An hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows to attack with all its heads on (for) an attack of opportunity", or even "An hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for every attack of opportunity". It's unclear because it would allow something very different from the standard AoO rules without a convincing description. For the OP, I'd love to discuss the 3.0 Hydras, but I never owned the 3.0 version of the MM. Perhaps if there was a reference somewhere on the net?
mvincent 11-28-07, 01:49 PM	For the OP, I'd love to discuss the 3.0 Hydras, but I never owned the 3.0 version of the MM. Perhaps if there was a reference somewhere on the net?There's a link to D&D 3.0 (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html) in the initial post, but it probably wasn't all that noticeable, so: Here is the link (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html).
Nom 11-28-07, 05:47 PM	"A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to" (A) "use all its heads for attacks of opportunity" (B) The first line "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to" Is simply the requirement (A) it doesn't change the meaning of B. And B doesn't change the meaning of A eitherOf course it does. Compare: The truck allows the man to carry heavy loads. The belt of giant strength allows the man to carry heavy loads. Context is everything. The "truck" in the first example tells us that we're talking about moving cargo. The "belt of giant strength" in the second example tells us that we're talking about weightlifting. When I see "Combat Reflexes", I immediately think about number of AoOs per round, not number of attacks per AoO.
mvincent 11-28-07, 06:03 PM	Just curious (since this sort of thing is bound to come up if PC's polymorph into hydra's or somesuch); what if a hydra: 1) Was hasted? 2) Used a speed weapon? 3) Had whirlwind attack? 4) Had improved trip? 5) Had sneak attack? 6) Had ride-by attack? 7) Had flyby attack? 8) Had spring attack? 9) Had similar feats or abilities that gave extra attacks? (can you come up with more?) I mean, assuming that a hydra get's multiple attacks anytime it makes an attack, what sort of synergy could you come up with?
tyrecian 11-28-07, 06:50 PM	1) Was hasted? One extra attack, only when using a full attack option (meaning in this case that they don't take more than a 5' step, and use attacks and then get the extra... though this wouldnt be the best use of the Hydra, yes?) 2) Used a speed weapon? Wouldn't the weapon be lost in the transformation, i dunno how they would be using it. 3) Had whirlwind attack? Ironically, since they no longer meet the Dexterity requirement, and their items don't work, then they are in trouble here. A smooth player might cat's grace themselves up first... in which case... When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. by this i would say that they have to make one sole attack, which again would waste the Hydra's many heads ability. 4) Had improved trip? This would be pretty badarse, each head could attempt a trip and an AoO on seperate targets, but agaisnt one, only that initial one would trip, and then each would attack at +4, this could be potentially abusive. 5) Had sneak attack? Flat footed opponents beware. But only the first attack gets a SA damage in many cases, right? Would mean an ambush or a setup by another player casting (grease, perhaps, sleet storm? something like that) Could potentially get abused pretty badly, eh. Rogue Hydras FTW! 6) Had ride-by attack? You must be mounted and use Charge. Stipulations of the feat, in which case, what the hell is the hydra mounted on?!?! (I would negate any arguments that the heads rode the body as soon as my players tried, which they would) 7) Had flyby attack? Flying Hydras. Well, first this is a monster feat, so you would have to 'allow' your players to have it, yes? And that is pretty generous. Then you have to realize that still moving through threatenned space provokes, yes? So the hydra might not want to do such maneuvers given that it might be provoking all over the place. 8) Had spring attack? Again we see the Dex issue cancelling this feat ability, however, a savvy player (and generous DM) will be able to move, but the Hydra's move is very slow, and though it has reach, most of what its fighting (unless even slower) will be able to engage it if necessary (although it might have to move through the Hydra's threatenned space, bringing up the AoO with all those nasty heads... :P) 9) Had similar feats or abilities that gave extra attacks? (can you come up with more?) hmmm adding things to its body (there is a spell that grants tentacles somewhere...) would add to its attacks, but it might provide some penalties if the Hydra lacks the proper feats for it... I would say that the Hydra has been modded so that it gets to attack a whole bunch (independant heads) it is a one of a kind fiend (as pointed out by other examples of other creatures with similar conditions... multiple heads). I would think that anything that added attacks would add them simply on an additional basis rather than affording all the heads extra attacks (i.e. i think that each head is still part of the whole fiend, therefore a 12 headed hydra gets 12 attacks, but i dont think that hasting would allow each head who individually gets 1 attack a round to add another so long as it was observing the rules for full attack action, giving 24 attacks, that would be insane). As far as synergy, i think that you could allow the hydra heads (within reach of the opponent, obeying all rules) to "aid another", so that a difficult to hit PC could be the subject of a single head's grappling bite attack (assuming you granted feats for the monster to be able to do this: snatch) so that the Hydra could use 6 heads to "Aid Another" to grant a 7th head +12 to its one attack. the other heads would attack normally, but would also be granted the benefit of attacking a snatched (grappled) PC if they chose to take bites at the held PC. With a great many heads (12 headed) you could also pick out the melee and have a couple of heads use "aid another" to grant higher AC against that PC, making the Hydra, which are notoriously easy to hit, even tougher to hit (i.e. a 12 headed hydra, carrying AC 22, could use 5 heads against a particular PC who damaged it badly [say with a power attack] to bump its AC against that one PC to 32). These maneuvers would not necessarily be obvious to the PCs, so that the DM could get a little flavor from it: "Heads whip and snap around you, teeth bared, all of a sudden one head you didn't see whips in and its jaws grab you and lift you off the ground!" or "Heads whip and snap in the air around you, a veritable wall of neck and teeth." PS I think. Generally i consider you to be light years ahead of me in DMing MV, and i am using the 3.5 rules for each thing you added, as 3.0 haste could offer the hydra another standard action, which would be another insane attack from each head.
mvincent 11-28-07, 07:16 PM	Excellent analysis tyrecian. That's pretty much how I would rule (and I like your aid another idea). I was just exploring the assertion that extra attacks by a hydra (AoO's or otherwise) are inherently multi-attacks.
tyrecian 11-28-07, 08:25 PM	hmmm undead hydra... Would the skellie still get all the heads attacks? This would make the Hydra the best necromancer pet EVAH! Ten-Headed Hydra Skeleton Size/Type: Huge Undead Magical Beast Hit Dice: 10d12 (65 hp) Initiative: +6 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft. Armor Class: 24 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +14 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 22 Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+16 Attack: 10 bites +8 melee (1d10+5) Full Attack: 10 bites +8 melee (1d10+5) Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks:— Special Qualities: Immune to Cold, DR 5/Bludgeoning Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +7 Abilities: Str 21, Dex 14, Con --, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 1 Feats: Improved Initiative Alignment: Neutral Evil Special Attacks A skeleton retains none of the base creature’s special attacks. (however, by virtue of making them multi-attacks, they are no longer special? So your pet would get them all?) Also by virtue of losing the feat Combat reflexes, the skeleton only gets one AoO, would you rule that it could use all its heads? Or by the very nature of the specialness of the hydra, would the nec-pet only get 1 head attack as an AoO, even though in Skellie entry it says… Special Qualities A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. so would you consider the special properties of its heads as able to be applied by this feature? Hmmmm….
mvincent 11-29-07, 12:15 PM	hmmm undead hydra... Would the skellie still get all the heads attacks? This would make the Hydra the best necromancer pet EVAH!Yup. Awhile back Dragon magazine ran a necromancer article showing the most optimal skeletons to animate for each caster level... the Hydra was preferred for pretty much every level.
Zathress 11-29-07, 06:10 PM	Also by virtue of losing the feat Combat reflexes, the skeleton only gets one AoO, would you rule that it could use all its heads? Or by the very nature of the specialness of the hydra, would the nec-pet only get 1 head attack as an AoO, even though in Skellie entry it says… When you animate the hydra as a skeleton it loses all its feats as you've already stated "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to, use all its heads for attacks of opportunity" It no longer has combat reflexes so it loses its special AoO features no matter what you think they may be. Its a prerequisite, combat reflexes is a prerequisite for the hydras special AoO features. It loses the feat it loses the ability. If you awakened the skeletal hydra it would regain its racial feats and its AoO of doom. [quote The truck allows the man to carry heavy loads. The belt of giant strength allows the man to carry heavy loads.[/quote] But the result does not change heavy loads are carried. All that changed is how the heavy load was carried not that the loads were carried. So once again if the entry said "Cream Cheese allows it to, use all its heads for attacks of opportunity" "Uses all its heads for attacks of opportunity" The result of the second passage is the same. It just needs cream cheese instead of the combat reflexes feat to accomplish it. I'm going to bring this up again from the Rules Compendium "Not only does the Hydra have the Combat Reflexes feat but it can use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.” Pg. 13 Bringing up the normal rules for AoO is silly because the hydra can break them. Just as it breaks the rules on attacking with all its heads after a move or a charge. I looked up the 3.0 Hydra "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity each round." 3.0 "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity" 3.5 Two words "each round" is the only difference between editions. Not of any help.
mvincent 11-29-07, 06:32 PM	I looked up the 3.0 Hydra "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity each round." 3.0 "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity" 3.5 Two words "each round" is the only difference between editions. Not of any help.Contextually, it (and other items I pointed out in the initial post) seemed to lend themselves to a certain interpretation (which seemed to be the writer's intent at the time). In 3.0, I never once saw someone believe that the hydra got to AoO with all its heads. I'm curious: just what do you believe was meant then by "each round"? Since the hydra still had 12 dex in 3.0, combat reflexes would've allowed it at least two AoO's. This means that (had all heads been allowed to attack on an AoO), then "each round" would technically be incorrect (or at the very least superfluous).
Zathress 11-29-07, 07:04 PM	superfluous, Even back in 3.0 a Hydra could make a full attack off of a charge. If they wanted to grant extra attacks of opp based on a hydras heads it say so but it doesn't it says "uses all its heads for attacks of opportunity each round" And the combat reflexes feat allows it to do so. The 3.5 Hydra is a lot more powerful. It has more feats, better attack bonus(being a magical beast) and fast healing Though they removed Lernaean hydras which were flat out immune to physical attacks not directed at cutting off heads. One major change in combat reflexes from 3.0 to 3.5 is and attacks of opp in general. You only touched on this but I'll expand on it as well as show it to newer posters. 3.0 You could only make one attack of opportunity per enemy. Even if they say provoked an attack of opportunity for moving through a threatened area and another for casting a spell. However in 3.5 "But if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." Now the combat reflexes feat "does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity" But the wording of the hydra's ability says that combat reflexes allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity. As I see no mention of adding more AoO, I conclude that does not happen. No matter what the meaning of "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity each round" Its going to break the normal rules for combat reflexes and/or AoO. Either by adding more AoO or by allowing it to attack with all its bites when it makes an AoO. So saying that it doesn't happen because it breaks this rule is nonsense. It obviously breaks a rule somewhere the question is which? I go by the wording of the ability. Now maybe there was a change in how its supposed to work from 3.0 to 3.5 but how attacks of opportunity work are now a lot more important.
mvincent 11-29-07, 07:18 PM	If they wanted to grant extra attacks of opp based on a hydras heads it say so but it doesn't it says "uses all its heads for attacks of opportunity each round" And the combat reflexes feat allows it to do so.To clarify - you believe that: 1) A hydra only get's 1 AoO per round (despite having combat reflexes)? 2) It is the combat reflexes feat which allows the hydra to make an AoO with all it's heads at once? Is this correct? While that is a possible interpretation, it does not seem intuitive, and indeed does not even seem to be what the Rules Compendium indicates.
Zathress 11-29-07, 08:14 PM	To clarify - you believe that: 1) A hydra only get's 1 AoO per round (despite having combat reflexes)? 2) It is the combat reflexes feat which allows the hydra to make an AoO with all it's heads at once? Is this correct? While that is a possible interpretation, it does not seem intuitive, and indeed does not even seem to be what the Rules Compendium indicates. No as I said above a Hydra as 2 attacks of opportunity or however many its dex score allows. And above or below average dex could have less or more attacks of opportunity. If a Hydra had someone cast cat's grace on it it gain more AoO if you cast bestow curse and gave a penalty to dex it only get one AoO. But as there is no dex requirement for combat reflexes. I never said that combat reflexes didn't function with its normal capacity. "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity each round" The wording of the ability means that the feat combat reflexes allows a hydra to do what ever interpretation of "use all its heads" you choose. Be that 1+dex mod of AoO with X number of bites or AoO=to x number of bites.
mvincent 11-29-07, 08:37 PM	The wording of the ability means that the feat combat reflexes allows a hydra to do what ever interpretation of "use all its heads" you choose.Ah. So (again, to clarify), you believe that it is the combat reflexes feat which allows the hydra to make an AoO with all it's heads at once. I believe that most of those that contend that a hydra can use all its heads on an AoO also appear to contend that it could do this even if it didn't have combat reflexes (i.e. that is a point of reasoning to support their argument). The rules compendium clarification seems to follow this line of thinking when it says "Not only does the Hydra have the Combat Reflexes feat but it can use all its heads for attacks of opportunity".
Zathress 11-29-07, 11:23 PM	You've got it now. To me the line from the rules compendium clears up how the Hydra makes AoO but doesn't change this part of the line.. "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to" The lines wording says the feat allows the hydra to [blank] thus logically with out the feat the hydra shouldn't be able to [blank]. I know of no way to actually remove the feat from the creature during play. Other then when you kill it an animate it as your skeletal undead servant.
Tordak 12-03-07, 10:14 AM	(Oups, this is a few days old!) Actually, AoO did not change from 3.0 to 3.5. I went back to the 3.0 PHB and read the text for both AoO and Combat reflexes. The text for AoO is pretty much the same, except they’ve added some part about reach weapon (you threaten every square into which you can make a melee attack and are armed, instead of 5ft around and then special case for reach), that AoOs disrupt the regular flow of action and clarified what are opportunities. The important parts remain: a single melee attack, only one per round except it you have combat reflexes feat (or another special feat), in which case it is no more than one per opportunity. The combat reflexes feat gives you an additional number of AoO equal to your dexterity bonus and allows you to take AoO even when flat-footed. The mention of only 'one attack per enemy' was included in the combat reflexes feat text only to precise the example that use to be in it. The example was ‘Four goblins move in your threaten area and you have +2 dex bonus, you can make 3 AoO. You still can only make one per enemy.’ It doesn’t limit to one per enemy per round, only one per enemy per opportunity. That’s what the lines clarified back then. In 3.5 , the clarified the notion of opportunity so that we now know that each goblin moving in your threat range represents one opportunity, and since you’re only allowed one AoO per opportunity this automatically limits you to one attack per enemy. In 3.0, the felt that we could mistake the movement of the goblins (let say thet all move at once) as one opportunity, and they wanted to make sure that those 3 AoOs were not being used against the same enemy. The 3.0 SRD only includes the line on the ‘one attack per enemy’, which is confusing because they don’t include the example anymore. The only problem is to understand if a single melee attack is 5-12 bites (which is as I pointed a significant deviation from the regular single melee attack, and not comparable to the hydra's attack action or the pounce ability), or if the hydra simply gets to act on more opportunities. You’re old conclusions on AoOs for hydra shouldn’t change. But if you used only one AoO per enemy per round, then yes it sort of changes, and the hydra having more opportunities now would represent a much bigger threat to a player because now he would face an AoO for every single attempt at sundering he makes rather than only one per round. It already makes the Hydra more threatening to a player without improved sunder feat, which is what was supposedly meant by WoTC (as mentioned by Runestar). I'm definetly not saying that hydra making #head attacks as 1 AoO is impossible, and the fact it has a feat modified in that sense is not impossible either, only that if this is the case it was worth being clearer about it, especially now that they made a 'Rules Compedium'.