3.5 DMG Variant: Weapon Equivalencies [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 DMG Variant: Weapon Equivalencies [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shadowfax7
12-03-07, 11:39 AM In the 3.5 DMG Variant: Weapon Equivalencies on p.27 (seems it isn't in the SRD) the objective is to allow PCs to use smaller or larger size weapons obtained from smaller or larger size opponents as equivalent Medium-size weapons.

In this case a Large Shortspear would be a Medium-size Spear, but a PC with Powerful Build could use it as a Large Shortspear if they wanted to. OK, no problem.

However, the PC with Powerful Build wants to use a medium-size Spear as a medium-size Shortspear. In other words, one-handed. I don't believe the variant allows this ??

Opinions ??
Rymosrac
12-03-07, 11:45 AM Would make more sense for him to use it as a large-size shortspear.
Wheldrake
12-03-07, 12:33 PM How does one get this "powerful build" ability? I don't see it listed as a feat anywhere.

Assuming, as you seem to imply, that it allows a character to use weapons as if he were one size larger, I would have to agree that such a character could use a longspear in one hand, or even a 2-handed sword in one hand.

Powerful indeed. --- Wheldrake
blade265
12-03-07, 12:47 PM It's a Race ability, Races of Stone Goliath and others.
RavenDrake
12-03-07, 07:45 PM In the 3.5 DMG Variant: Weapon Equivalencies on p.27 (seems it isn't in the SRD) the objective is to allow PCs to use smaller or larger size weapons obtained from smaller or larger size opponents as equivalent Medium-size weapons.

In this case a Large Shortspear would be a Medium-size Spear, but a PC with Powerful Build could use it as a Large Shortspear if they wanted to. OK, no problem.

However, the PC with Powerful Build wants to use a medium-size Spear as a medium-size Shortspear. In other words, one-handed. I don't believe the variant allows this ??

Opinions ??

I think you meant "use a medium spear as a large sized shortspear". If that's what you meant, then I don't see a problem with that. Powerful build says he can use large weaponry with no penalty, thus if you rule that a medium spear is functionally identical to the large shortspear, then he should be allowed to use it one-handed.
Shadowfax7
12-04-07, 12:44 PM I think you meant "use a medium spear as a large sized shortspear". If that's what you meant, then I don't see a problem with that. Powerful build says he can use large weaponry with no penalty, thus if you rule that a medium spear is functionally identical to the large shortspear, then he should be allowed to use it one-handed.

No, I meant "use a medium-size Spear as a medium-size Shortspear". This is why I don't believe Powerful Build can be used this way. The PC is trying to use a 2h only weapon as a 1h weapon.

As far as "use a medium spear as a large sized shortspear", this is not allowed by Powerful Build either. Powerful Build allows you to use a Large size Spear as a medium-size Spear or a Large size Shortspear as a medium-size Shortspear.
RavenDrake
12-04-07, 03:42 PM You're confusing me now.

You said you're using the Weapon Equivilency rules. According to those rules, a medium sized spear is the same weapon as a large sized short-spear. They function the same, have same damage, everything. They're identical.

A creature with the Powerful Build trait can use weapons sized for a creature one size category larger than they are with no penalty, as the creature would weild it.

Since the medium spear is also a large shortspear(by definition of the weapon equivilancy rules), then a character with powerful build can weild it in one hand, just as they would with large shortspear. It is functionally both weapons at the same time, and can be taken advantage of in either way. That's the whole point of the Weapon Equivilancy rules.
Shadowfax7
12-05-07, 09:22 AM You're confusing me now.

You said you're using the Weapon Equivilency rules. According to those rules, a medium sized spear is the same weapon as a large sized short-spear. They function the same, have same damage, everything. They're identical.

A creature with the Powerful Build trait can use weapons sized for a creature one size category larger than they are with no penalty, as the creature would weild it.

Since the medium spear is also a large shortspear(by definition of the weapon equivilancy rules), then a character with powerful build can weild it in one hand, just as they would with large shortspear. It is functionally both weapons at the same time, and can be taken advantage of in either way. That's the whole point of the Weapon Equivilancy rules.

OK, I might of confused myself.

So you are saying that a creature with Powerful Build can use any Medium-sized Spear as a Large Shortspear, including its 1-handedness (even though it technically isn't a Shortspear), and thus use a Medium-sized Spear 1-handed or 2-handed at any time ?

I believe that Powerful Build only works one-way, meaning it would allow you to use a Large Shortspear also as a Medium-sized Shortspear, rather than just as a Medium-sized Spear (as per the Weapon Equivalaencies variant rule).

This would apply to using Medium-sized Greataxes and Greatswords 1-handed as well. I guess it just seems an abuse of the variant rule to me.
RavenDrake
12-05-07, 07:18 PM What I'm saying ONLY applies if you are actively using the Weapon Equivilancy rules. And it works because, under these rules, certain weapons are treated as being essentially different weapons for a creature one size category larger or smaller.

Using the same spear/Short spear analogy: A large shortspear deals 1d8 points of damage(with a x2 critical), has a 20ft range increment, and weighs 6lbs. A medium spear deals 1d8 damage (but with a x3 critical), has a 20ft range increment, and weighs 6lbs. Other than thier critical modifier, they are identical weapons. When a creature with Powerful build is choosing to weild a weapon, they are able to weild either large or medium weapons with no penalty, and they may weild them as a creature of the weapon's size category may weild them. So for this weapon, a powerful build creature can use the large shortspear as a large shortspear if they desire, using the weapon in one hand as a 1d8, x2 weapon with a 20ft range increment. OR they can choose to use it as a medium spear, weilding the weapon in two hands as a 1d8, x3 weapon with 20ft range increment. Because if, and again ONLY IF, you're using the weapon equivilancy rules they are for all intents and purposes the same weapon.

The same is true, with the weapon equvilance rules, of the Greatsword. A medium greatsword, under the weapon equivilance rules, is the same as a large longsword. (both deal 2d6 damage, have a 19-20, x2 crit, and weigh eight pounds). They are an even better example because they are, quite literally, the same weapon. A medium creature with powerful build can choose to weild this weapon either as a medium greatsword(in two hands), OR as a large longsword (In one hand), because, using the Weapon Equivilancy rules, they ARE the same weapon.

Note that, this ONLY applies if you are using the optional Weapon Equivilancy rules, otherwise a weapon can only be weilded effeciently by a creature of the weapon's size category, and each size category difference incurs a cumulative -2 penalty(as well as increasing or decreasing the 'handedness' of the wepaon, depending on the direction your take it).
BananaB
12-05-07, 09:55 PM I don't see what the problem is. If the spear origionally was a large short spear and you have powerful build then why not just use it as a 1 handed large shortspear. If thats what it is and the character can already wield it then why would you want to make it a smaller size. A creature with powerful build can use a large short spear no problem so you don't need to apply the Variant weapon rules at all and can use it 1 handed as a large weapon. Making it smaller seems pointless.
CrimsonDeath
12-06-07, 01:20 AM I don't see what the problem is. If the spear origionally was a large short spear and you have powerful build then why not just use it as a 1 handed large shortspear. If thats what it is and the character can already wield it then why would you want to make it a smaller size. A creature with powerful build can use a large short spear no problem so you don't need to apply the Variant weapon rules at all and can use it 1 handed as a large weapon. Making it smaller seems pointless.

Because, although he could use a Large Shortspear two-handed if he wanted to (just as he could use any one-handed weapon two-handed to take advantage of a high Strength modifier), a Medium Spear has a better critical multiplier.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadowfax7 12-03-07, 11:39 AM	In the 3.5 DMG Variant: Weapon Equivalencies on p.27 (seems it isn't in the SRD) the objective is to allow PCs to use smaller or larger size weapons obtained from smaller or larger size opponents as equivalent Medium-size weapons. In this case a Large Shortspear would be a Medium-size Spear, but a PC with Powerful Build could use it as a Large Shortspear if they wanted to. OK, no problem. However, the PC with Powerful Build wants to use a medium-size Spear as a medium-size Shortspear. In other words, one-handed. I don't believe the variant allows this ?? Opinions ??
Rymosrac 12-03-07, 11:45 AM	Would make more sense for him to use it as a large-size shortspear.
Wheldrake 12-03-07, 12:33 PM	How does one get this "powerful build" ability? I don't see it listed as a feat anywhere. Assuming, as you seem to imply, that it allows a character to use weapons as if he were one size larger, I would have to agree that such a character could use a longspear in one hand, or even a 2-handed sword in one hand. Powerful indeed. --- Wheldrake
blade265 12-03-07, 12:47 PM	It's a Race ability, Races of Stone Goliath and others.
RavenDrake 12-03-07, 07:45 PM	In the 3.5 DMG Variant: Weapon Equivalencies on p.27 (seems it isn't in the SRD) the objective is to allow PCs to use smaller or larger size weapons obtained from smaller or larger size opponents as equivalent Medium-size weapons. In this case a Large Shortspear would be a Medium-size Spear, but a PC with Powerful Build could use it as a Large Shortspear if they wanted to. OK, no problem. However, the PC with Powerful Build wants to use a medium-size Spear as a medium-size Shortspear. In other words, one-handed. I don't believe the variant allows this ?? Opinions ?? I think you meant "use a medium spear as a large sized shortspear". If that's what you meant, then I don't see a problem with that. Powerful build says he can use large weaponry with no penalty, thus if you rule that a medium spear is functionally identical to the large shortspear, then he should be allowed to use it one-handed.
Shadowfax7 12-04-07, 12:44 PM	I think you meant "use a medium spear as a large sized shortspear". If that's what you meant, then I don't see a problem with that. Powerful build says he can use large weaponry with no penalty, thus if you rule that a medium spear is functionally identical to the large shortspear, then he should be allowed to use it one-handed. No, I meant "use a medium-size Spear as a medium-size Shortspear". This is why I don't believe Powerful Build can be used this way. The PC is trying to use a 2h only weapon as a 1h weapon. As far as "use a medium spear as a large sized shortspear", this is not allowed by Powerful Build either. Powerful Build allows you to use a Large size Spear as a medium-size Spear or a Large size Shortspear as a medium-size Shortspear.
RavenDrake 12-04-07, 03:42 PM	You're confusing me now. You said you're using the Weapon Equivilency rules. According to those rules, a medium sized spear is the same weapon as a large sized short-spear. They function the same, have same damage, everything. They're identical. A creature with the Powerful Build trait can use weapons sized for a creature one size category larger than they are with no penalty, as the creature would weild it. Since the medium spear is also a large shortspear(by definition of the weapon equivilancy rules), then a character with powerful build can weild it in one hand, just as they would with large shortspear. It is functionally both weapons at the same time, and can be taken advantage of in either way. That's the whole point of the Weapon Equivilancy rules.
Shadowfax7 12-05-07, 09:22 AM	You're confusing me now. You said you're using the Weapon Equivilency rules. According to those rules, a medium sized spear is the same weapon as a large sized short-spear. They function the same, have same damage, everything. They're identical. A creature with the Powerful Build trait can use weapons sized for a creature one size category larger than they are with no penalty, as the creature would weild it. Since the medium spear is also a large shortspear(by definition of the weapon equivilancy rules), then a character with powerful build can weild it in one hand, just as they would with large shortspear. It is functionally both weapons at the same time, and can be taken advantage of in either way. That's the whole point of the Weapon Equivilancy rules. OK, I might of confused myself. So you are saying that a creature with Powerful Build can use any Medium-sized Spear as a Large Shortspear, including its 1-handedness (even though it technically isn't a Shortspear), and thus use a Medium-sized Spear 1-handed or 2-handed at any time ? I believe that Powerful Build only works one-way, meaning it would allow you to use a Large Shortspear also as a Medium-sized Shortspear, rather than just as a Medium-sized Spear (as per the Weapon Equivalaencies variant rule). This would apply to using Medium-sized Greataxes and Greatswords 1-handed as well. I guess it just seems an abuse of the variant rule to me.
RavenDrake 12-05-07, 07:18 PM	What I'm saying ONLY applies if you are actively using the Weapon Equivilancy rules. And it works because, under these rules, certain weapons are treated as being essentially different weapons for a creature one size category larger or smaller. Using the same spear/Short spear analogy: A large shortspear deals 1d8 points of damage(with a x2 critical), has a 20ft range increment, and weighs 6lbs. A medium spear deals 1d8 damage (but with a x3 critical), has a 20ft range increment, and weighs 6lbs. Other than thier critical modifier, they are identical weapons. When a creature with Powerful build is choosing to weild a weapon, they are able to weild either large or medium weapons with no penalty, and they may weild them as a creature of the weapon's size category may weild them. So for this weapon, a powerful build creature can use the large shortspear as a large shortspear if they desire, using the weapon in one hand as a 1d8, x2 weapon with a 20ft range increment. OR they can choose to use it as a medium spear, weilding the weapon in two hands as a 1d8, x3 weapon with 20ft range increment. Because if, and again ONLY IF, you're using the weapon equivilancy rules they are for all intents and purposes the same weapon. The same is true, with the weapon equvilance rules, of the Greatsword. A medium greatsword, under the weapon equivilance rules, is the same as a large longsword. (both deal 2d6 damage, have a 19-20, x2 crit, and weigh eight pounds). They are an even better example because they are, quite literally, the same weapon. A medium creature with powerful build can choose to weild this weapon either as a medium greatsword(in two hands), OR as a large longsword (In one hand), because, using the Weapon Equivilancy rules, they ARE the same weapon. Note that, this ONLY applies if you are using the optional Weapon Equivilancy rules, otherwise a weapon can only be weilded effeciently by a creature of the weapon's size category, and each size category difference incurs a cumulative -2 penalty(as well as increasing or decreasing the 'handedness' of the wepaon, depending on the direction your take it).
BananaB 12-05-07, 09:55 PM	I don't see what the problem is. If the spear origionally was a large short spear and you have powerful build then why not just use it as a 1 handed large shortspear. If thats what it is and the character can already wield it then why would you want to make it a smaller size. A creature with powerful build can use a large short spear no problem so you don't need to apply the Variant weapon rules at all and can use it 1 handed as a large weapon. Making it smaller seems pointless.
CrimsonDeath 12-06-07, 01:20 AM	I don't see what the problem is. If the spear origionally was a large short spear and you have powerful build then why not just use it as a 1 handed large shortspear. If thats what it is and the character can already wield it then why would you want to make it a smaller size. A creature with powerful build can use a large short spear no problem so you don't need to apply the Variant weapon rules at all and can use it 1 handed as a large weapon. Making it smaller seems pointless. Because, although he could use a Large Shortspear two-handed if he wanted to (just as he could use any one-handed weapon two-handed to take advantage of a high Strength modifier), a Medium Spear has a better critical multiplier.