Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 09-17-04, 07:50 PM	If a large creature is 10-feet away (reach), are they still considered in melee for purposes of the -4 penalty for firing a ranged weapon into melee? Example:....... .LL..M. L = Large creature with 10-foot reach .LL.... M = Me ....... F = Friend ..F.... .......
FitzNighteyes 09-17-04, 08:04 PM	If one creature threatens another creature, they are in melee combat. A DM has to use some judgement though. If two allies are standing next to each other with their swords out with no one else nearby, and an enemy is shooting arrows at one of them, the archer shouldn't take -4 for the two allies "threatening" each other.
Egres 09-17-04, 08:50 PM	If one creature threatens another creature, they are in melee combat. A DM has to use some judgement though. If two allies are standing next to each other with their swords out with no one else nearby, and an enemy is shooting arrows at one of them, the archer shouldn't take -4 for the two allies "threatening" each other. You don't need to use any judgement. You simply have to check the PHB ;) From the SRD: Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll
FitzNighteyes 09-17-04, 09:16 PM	Ah, so when two orc factions are fighting each other (in melee), you don't take a penalty to hit them? That's stupid
olothfaern 09-17-04, 09:39 PM	Ah, so when two orc factions are fighting each other (in melee), you don't take a penalty to hit them? That's stupid ...because you're not trying to be careful because you don't care who dies, as long as it's one of them...
Inigo Carmine 09-17-04, 09:50 PM	And to actually answer the original question... no. From the SRD Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.) If your target (or the part of your target you’re aiming at, if it’s a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you’re aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character. Precise Shot: If you have the Precise Shot feat you don’t take this penalty.
Tony Vargas 09-17-04, 11:53 PM	Yes, he's in melee. Oddly, there's no rule for attacking if you 'don't care' if you accidently hit one of the melee participants - possibly because too many players might go for it and feather thier buddies. ;) As a reasonably rule-0, you might aply the penalty only the characters in base-to-base contact, or within eachother's natural reach. You could even take that down to individual squares of a larger creature - letting an archer shoot at no penalty if he has a clear shot at any one square of his target's space. Of course, you'd be doing archers a big favor if you took it too far, and reducing the value of Precise Shot into the bargain, so tread carefully...
Harmor 09-18-04, 01:21 AM	Well I was looking at the fact that the large creature is standing 10-feet away. If I'm attacking the large creature how can I hit my friend who is literally 15-feet away from the square I'm attacking? If you go back to the original picture I gave, I the M (Me) can attack the square 3 squares over. THAT square within 10-feet (the reach of the creature) of F (Friend). To me I don't see how I could possibly hit my friend, but according to RAW I still get the -4 to attack. Common sense?
Egres 09-18-04, 07:25 AM	Well I was looking at the fact that the large creature is standing 10-feet away. If I'm attacking the large creature how can I hit my friend who is literally 15-feet away from the square I'm attacking? If you go back to the original picture I gave, I the M (Me) can attack the square 3 squares over. THAT square within 10-feet (the reach of the creature) of F (Friend). To me I don't see how I could possibly hit my friend, but according to RAW I still get the -4 to attack. Common sense? ??? Didn't you read Inigo Carmine's post? Originally posted by Inigo Carmine And to actually answer the original question... no. Quote: From the SRD Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.) If your target (or the part of your target you’re aiming at, if it’s a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you’re aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character. Precise Shot: If you have the Precise Shot feat you don’t take this penalty.
Harmor 09-18-04, 12:28 PM	D'oh missed it. Finally that makes sense.
FriendoftheDork 09-18-04, 08:24 PM	this clarifies quite a bit... I have always played like this but now I can point to RAW (whatever that means)
kSquared 09-18-04, 08:42 PM	RAW = (r)ules (a)s (w)ritten.
Egres 09-18-04, 10:18 PM	this clarifies quite a bit... I have always played like this but now I can point to RAW (whatever that means) When you have this kind of doubt, check the TROLLBILL’S UNOFFICIAL DICTIONARY OF COMMON D&D MESSAGE BOARD TERMINOLOGY (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=46916)
FitzNighteyes 09-19-04, 12:22 AM	Oops. Inigo is right. The target is at least 10ft away, so no -4. ...because you're not trying to be careful because you don't care who dies, as long as it's one of them... The -4 doesn't cause you to hit the wrong target if you miss, so obviously that logic is faulty. I've always assumed is must be because targets manuvering heavily (ie melee combat), so you have to aim more carefully to actually hit the target you are aiming at. Hmmm, I think I'll house rule out the words "with a friendly character" (since that logical reasoning is obviously faulty, given the mechanics). Or maybe I'll house rule that if you hit a target engaged in melee without taking the -4 to hit, and you would have missed if you had taken the penalty, then the actual target is determined randomly among those in melee. That allows you to risk pincushioning an ally too. ;)