Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OrbitalB 08-30-06, 11:13 PM	D&D Weapon Balance System v1.4 To test if a weapon is balanced, for D&D 3.5, we’ll use a percentage system. Start with 100% and subtract the appropriate amount based on relative encumbrance. This basically sets the starting amount based on weapon type (ranged, two-handed, etc). Then add to that calculation the amounts associated with each of the attributes the weapon has. The goal is to end up with 100% again. If you end up with higher or lower than 100%, the weapon is overpowered or underpowered by about that much. A range of 95% to 105% is acceptable, but 100% is best. Relative Encumbrance Special Attributes Light Melee Weapon -25% Exotic Proficiency Required -5% One-Handed Melee Weapon -30% Thrown (10ft base range) 6% Two-Handed Melee Weapon -40% Thrown (per +5ft range) +2% Ranged Weapon: Project -35% Thrown (counts as ammo) +10% Ranged Weapon: Thrown -25% Trip 5% Unarmed -25% Disarm Bonus (per +2) 5% Cannot Be Disarmed 5% Damage Dice (medium) Non-Lethal Damage 5% 1d2 0% Damage Type (option) 2% 1d3 5% Damage Type (multiple) 5% 1d4 10% Monk Special Weapon 5% 1d6 15% 1d8 20% Melee Weapon Attributes 2d4 22% Reach 5% 1d10 25% Reach (Inclusive) +5% 1d12 28% Set Against Charge 2% 2d6 30% Weapon Finesse (non-light) 5% 2d8 34% Double Weapon 15% 2d10 40% Shield As Weapon 10% Extra Specialized Abilities -10% to +10% Critical Threat/Multiplier 20/x2 5% Projectile Weapon Attributes 20/x3 10% Projectile (under 100ft) 0% 20/x4 15% Projectile (100ft+)[drawback] 0% 19-20/x2 10% Reload (full-round action) 0% 18-20/x2 15% Reload (move action) 5% Reload (free action) 10% Reload (free/full hybrid) 5% Extra Specialized Abilities: No system can account for everything. However, if a weapon has a specialized ability, not listed, you will need to decide what value it holds. One example from the PHB is the Lance, which has “x2 damage mounted charge & one-handed while mounted” as an ability. This ability is highly specialized and conditional, but still not trivial. Attach a 5% value to it, and when you calculate the Lance it comes out to 100%. A second example would be the Rapier, with the ‘weapon finesse’ ability, but also ‘cannot be used hand+half’. These abilities are of comparable value, so apply a -5% to the ‘no hand+half’ and it balances out. Finally, the Dagger has an example of an almost valueless ability in its ‘conceal bonus’, so you may perhaps give it a 1% value. Double Weapon Special Note: If a double weapon has different ends, use the damage dice and critical threat/multiplier numbers from the end which adds up to the greater amount in your calculations. (Ex. Dwarven Urgosh damage/critical numbers total 30%, not the 25% from the spear end.) Projectile Weapon Special Note: Projectile weapons basically come in two types; Drawn and Loaded. Drawn weapons (bows) require two hands to use, and only a free action to reload. But, they suffer Strength penalties (if any) to damage. Loaded weapons (crossbows/sling) generally use two hands, but will allow an optional one handed firing (but not reloading) at a penalty. A projectile weapon’s range increment has no percentage cost, but it will govern some of the other attributes associated with the weapon. If a weapon’s range is less than 100ft, we’ll call that short range. If the range increment is 100ft or greater, we’ll call that long range. Drawn weapons of long range should have some kind of minor drawback (for longbows, it is that they cannot be used while mounted). Loaded weapons have a one-handed option that is a function of it’s range. A short range weapon suffers a -2 penalty if used one-handed, and can be used off-hand as a light weapon. A long range weapon suffers a -4 one-handed penalty, and is used off-hand as a one-handed weapon. Any deviations from those basics would require a value associated. One example of this is the Hand Crossbow’s lack of any penalty while using it one-handed, or the Sling’s full strength modifier. If we calculate those weapons without these abilities, they each come in at 85%. So, those abilities must be worth around 10%. Seams a bit high, but oh well. Exotic Weapon Freebies: Exotic weapons sometimes need something ‘special’ to make it clear that it’s exotic. So, an exotic weapon can have one or both of the following abilities as a freebie. Only use these if it is appropriate for the weapon, though. Also, non-exotics should probably never have these abilities. -One handed weapon can be use two-handed as a martial weapon. -Racial Weapon Familiarity Should Not Be A Consideration When Balancing Weapons: Cost [gp] – Doesn’t have an impact beyond 1st level startup. Size – This is a self regulating factor. Every weapon should potentially come in every size. Weight – Generally of no value. Might be considered in the extremes. Final Comments: When applying this system to the PHB weapons, almost all fall within the 95%-105% margins, with most hitting 100% exactly. One notable exception is the javelin. It stands out coming in at 114%, but this is because it seams to be confused as to whether it is a truly ‘ranged’ (thrown exclusively) weapon, or simply a melee weapon that can be thrown better than it can be wielded in melee combat. If we pretend it is a 1-handed Exotic (which explains our -4 non-proficiency penalty), it totals 98%... charge a small fee [5%] for having no penalty if thrown, and it falls nicely at 103%.
OrbitalB 08-30-06, 11:14 PM	Weapon Percentages: [95% to 105% = Fine] PHB: 90% – Gauntlet 95% – Dagger, punching / Gauntlet, spiked / Mace, light / Mace, heavy / Shield, heavy / Greatclub / Siangham / Crossbow, hand / Crossbow, repeating light 96% – Club / Whip / Shuriken 97% – Longspear / Falchion 100% – Unarmed strike / Sickle / Morningstar / Shortspear / Quarterstaff / Hammer, light / Handaxe / Kukri / Pick, light / Sap / Shield, light / Spiked shield, light / Sword, short / Battleaxe / Longsword / Pick, heavy / Rapier / Scimitar / Spiked shield, heavy / Warhammer / Glaive / Guisarme / Lance / Kama / Nunchaku / Sword, bastard / Waraxe, dwarven / Axe, orc double / Sword, two-bladed / Sling / Crossbow, heavy / Crossbow, light / Shortbow / Shortbow, composite / Crossbow, repeating heavy / Dart 101% – Axe, throwing / Bolas 102% – Spear / Guisarme / Ranseur 103% – Spiked armor / Trident / Greataxe 104% – Dagger / Halberd / Scythe / Urgrosh, dwarven 105% – Flail / Flail, heavy / Greatsword / Flail, dire / Longbow 106% – Sai 107% - Chain, spiked / Hammer, gnome hooked 110% - Longbow, composite 114% – Javelin
DwarvinJedi 08-30-06, 11:18 PM	Interesting, have you seen the melee weapon point system. You should also have some sort of multiplying effect for a combo threat range and crit multiplier increase(like the pre-errata Talenta Sharrash)
OrbitalB 08-31-06, 12:35 AM	Interesting, have you seen the melee weapon point system. I may have, do you have a link? Or perhaps a source? You should also have some sort of multiplying effect for a combo threat range and crit multiplier increase(like the pre-errata Talenta Sharrash) An example of an unerrata'd similar weapon would be the Braid Blade from Dungeon Magazine #120 p35 which has an 18-20/x3 crit. Those costs are not exclusive, so the Braid Blade would suffer a 15% and 10% cost due to those numbers.
risner 08-31-06, 12:56 AM	Leet, I want my: Exotic (-30%), Two Handed (-15%), -1AC (-5% extra special ability) 2d10 (+50%) weapon thanks Doesn't sound very balaced to me.
Xeviat-DM 08-31-06, 12:58 AM	Shazam! Melee Weapon Balance System Damage (Medium; +1/-1 die per size difference) Light: 1d4 20/x2 One-Handed: 1d6 20/x2 Two-Handed: 1d8 20/x2 Values Simple: 1 point Martial: 2 points Exotic: 3 points Costs Reach (R): 1/2 point Disarming (D): 1/2 point Tripping (T): 1/2 point 1 handed while mounted (M): 1/2 point Double Die: 1/2 point +1 Die size: 1 point [1 > 1d2 > 1d3 > 1d4 > 1d6 > 1d8 (2d4) > 1d10 > 1d12 (2d6) > 2d8 (4d4) > 2d10 > 2d12 (4d6)] 19-20 critical range: 1 point x3 critical multiplier: 1 point Throwing Range: 1 point +2 Die size: 2 points 18-20 critical range: 2 points x4 critical multiplier: 2 points Double Headed: 2 points Adjacent Reach (Ar): 2 points Cannot be disarmed (Cd): 1 point Extreme Reach (Er.): 3 points (15 ft. reach, can attack adjacent foes) -1 Die size: -1 point -2 Die size: -2 points Nonlethal (S): 0 points 2 Damage types: 1/2 point Set Against Charge (C): 0 points That's the weapon balance calculator, created by Conjurer, and modified by me. It works for every melee weapon in the PHB, though it does reveal certain weapons (I'm looking at you greatclub) to be inappropriately placed within the Simple > Martial > Exotic hierarchy. That and the monk weapons ... but that's another debate.
Xeviat-DM 08-31-06, 01:01 AM	Leet, I want my: Exotic (-30%), Two Handed (-15%), -1AC (-5% extra special ability) 2d10 (+50%) weapon thanks Doesn't sound very balaced to me. Um ... so a 2d10 20/x2 two-handed exotic weapon? That's perfectly fine actually. Take the 2d6 19-20/x2 two-handed martial weapon that is the greatsword. Reduce the critical range by 1, and instead increase the damage die by one, giving us a 2d8 20/x2 two-handed martial weapon. Then we'll make it an exotic weapon and kick the damage up to 2d10. That works with my system; heck, in my system you won't have to pay with -1 AC.
LordPendragon 08-31-06, 01:04 AM	Er, Risner... it actually is balanced. It's a fullblade with a 1 point 2-handed power attack that draws from AC. I'm gonna test this out, and see if I can make a useful weapon not already covered in the rules.
Xeviat-DM 08-31-06, 01:09 AM	Sorry to post so many times, but critical range and multiplier are multiplicatively related (is that a word?). Look at it as a table: Range Mult 20 19 18 x2 1 2 3 x3 2 4 6 x4 3 6 9 See, increasing from 20 to 19 is doubling the threat range, increasing from 20 to 18 is trippling it. Likewise, increasing from x2 to x3 is doubling the multiplier, and x2 to x3 is trippling it. We'll need to bring someone in here who's much better with numbers than I, but trust us when we say that a weapon which is naturally 19/x3 is as powerful as a weapon which is naturally 17/x2 (3 steps), not something that is naturally 18/x2 (2 steps). Please trust us.
OrbitalB 08-31-06, 01:18 AM	Likewise, increasing from x2 to x3 is doubling the multiplier, and x2 to x3 is trippling it. Assuming you mean x2 to x4 is trippling it.
Xeviat-DM 08-31-06, 02:39 AM	Assuming you mean x2 to x4 is trippling it. Hai, so desu.
OrbitalB 08-31-06, 03:36 AM	For interests sake; The Talenta Sharrash calculates as such: 115% = Before Errata 100% = After Errata They must have used this system ;)
LordPendragon 08-31-06, 10:05 AM	We'll need to bring someone in here who's much better with numbers than I, but trust us when we say that a weapon which is naturally 19/x3 is as powerful as a weapon which is naturally 17/x2 (3 steps), not something that is naturally 18/x2 (2 steps). Please trust us.Close, but not quite... Viewing each aspect of criticalism (I can make up words too!) as additional damage, we get... x2 = 1 x3 = 2 x4 = 3 20 = .05 19 = .10 18 = .15 Multiply the 2 numbers together, and you get the average additional damage for that crit multiplier/range. The high-end crit weapons all work out to a 15% damage increase (.15 x 1 or .05 x 3). A 19-20/x3 weapon would multiply out to 20%; slightly better than the best core weapons. If you notice, a high-end crit weapon under this system costs 15%, while a 19-20/x3 costs 20%. Coincidence?? I think not.
Xeviat-DM 08-31-06, 01:16 PM	Close, but not quite... Viewing each aspect of criticalism (I can make up words too!) as additional damage, we get... x2 = 1 x3 = 2 x4 = 3 20 = .05 19 = .10 18 = .15 Multiply the 2 numbers together, and you get the average additional damage for that crit multiplier/range. The high-end crit weapons all work out to a 15% damage increase (.15 x 1 or .05 x 3). A 19-20/x3 weapon would multiply out to 20%; slightly better than the best core weapons. If you notice, a high-end crit weapon under this system costs 15%, while a 19-20/x3 costs 20%. Coincidence?? I think not. And by your progression, a 17/x2 weapon would be .20 ... or 20%, just like I said. So I got the same results as you, just in a different direction. The point is that in my system, a 19-20/x3 weapon would cost you 3 points, not two points. You can't just buy a 19 range and then a x3 multiplier, because that's as potent as a +15% increase, a 17/x2 weapon, or worse, a 20/x5 weapon.
The_Geek 08-31-06, 01:53 PM	Exotic Weapon -30% Monk Special Weapon 10% Take the Dwarven waraxe ... with a dwarf. For them, it's a Martial weapon. Drops it back to -25% by your chart, and thus substantially overpowered compared to other one-handed (martial) melee weapons. So race can be a factor. Or take the wizard armed with a quarterstaff. +10% ? Please! The class has a very limited selection, and no special tricks with the weapons. So do you mean to apply the 10% only if the character has a level of Monk? So class gets to be a factor too. Generally, I go with average damage, max damage, and sometimes variance. One-handed and two-handed factor in a fair bit, too - a 1st level dwarven barbarian could (theoretically) smack someone for around 87 pts with a pair of axes. I like the idea of trying to calculate 'balance', but it's ultimately pointless.
OrbitalB 08-31-06, 01:54 PM	You'll notice that there is no 17-20 range nor x5 multiplier in this system. That's because those numbers have no place being on a weapon. You'll also notice that there are no weapons in any book with those stats. That's because those numbers have no place being on a weapon. Magic, Feats, or Class Features might elevate a weapon to those levels... but a weapon balancing system shouldn't consider such factors. LordPendragon was illustrating what the math is regarding the various combinations, and also nicely pointed out that this system follows those percentages to the letter. [It costs 10% to gain a 10% damage increase, 15% for a 15% increase, and 20% for a 20% damage increase] It might be worth noting, though, that when one gets outrageous about combinations, the numbers get fudged. [A 18-20/x3 weapon, though it grants a 30% damage increase, only imposes a 25% increase to cost, for example]
Xeviat-DM 08-31-06, 02:05 PM	You'll notice that there is no 17-20 range nor x5 multiplier in this system. That's because those numbers have no place being on a weapon. I didn't say you were doing 17-20 or x5 weapons, but your system doesn't disallow a 19-20/x3 weapon for the price of an 18-20/x2 or 20/x4 weapon.
OrbitalB 08-31-06, 02:15 PM	Take the Dwarven waraxe ... with a dwarf. For them, it's a Martial weapon. Drops it back to -25% by your chart, and thus substantially overpowered compared to other one-handed (martial) melee weapons. So race can be a factor. That is already addressed in the system. Just because to 'someone' the weapon acts differently doesn't change it's balancing factors. In this case, it is an exotic weapon (so balance it as one), and 'racial familiarity' is one of the listed freebies for exotic weapons. See the Exotic Weapon Notes section. [as a side note: if you balanced it as a one-handed martial (which you shouldn't), it comes in at 105% which is still within limits.] Or take the wizard armed with a quarterstaff. +10% ? Please! The class has a very limited selection, and no special tricks with the weapons. So do you mean to apply the 10% only if the character has a level of Monk? So class gets to be a factor too. No, class is not a factor when balancing anything but a class. Now, a weapon may have an ability that can only be utilized by some classes (like for instance 'martial weapons' in the case of half the classes), but that weapon has the inherant ability and must be considered as a balancing factor regardless of who is or may wield it. [as a side note: if you balanced it as if it wasn't flurriable (which you shouldn't), it comes in at 95% which is still within limits.] I like the idea of trying to calculate 'balance', but it's ultimately pointless. Well, we can disagree on that point.
OrbitalB 08-31-06, 02:19 PM	I didn't say you were doing 17-20 or x5 weapons, but your system doesn't disallow a 19-20/x3 weapon for the price of an 18-20/x2 or 20/x4 weapon. My system says this: 18-20/x2 costs 15% (netting a 15% damage increase) 20/x4 costs 15% (netting a 15% damage increase) 19-20/x3 costs 20% (netting a 20% damage increase) How is that wrong?
LordPendragon 08-31-06, 04:08 PM	And by your progression, a 17/x2 weapon would be .20 ... or 20%, just like I said. So I got the same results as you, just in a different direction. The point is that in my system, a 19-20/x3 weapon would cost you 3 points, not two points. You can't just buy a 19 range and then a x3 multiplier, because that's as potent as a +15% increase, a 17/x2 weapon, or worse, a 20/x5 weapon.I'm sorry, I mistook the purpose of your post. We did indeed reach the same conclusion, but there's something you're missing. In OrbitalB's system, a 19-20 range costs 10%, and a x3 mutiplier also costs 10%. Adding those 2 together costs 20%, not the 15% which is the cost of a 18-20/x2 or 20/x4 weapon. He's already provided for the fact that stacking critical ranges and multipliers gets you greater results. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I interpreted your post correctly this time.
Seerow 08-31-06, 04:17 PM	So... what's the highest crit you can get in this system with an exotic 1d2 light weapon? ie how high would it be to be considered 130%?
LordPendragon 08-31-06, 04:32 PM	So... what's the highest crit you can get in this system with an exotic 1d2 light weapon? ie how high would it be to be considered 130%?18-20/x4 :tongue: Which is a 45% damage increase, incidentally. But keep in mind that's 45% of 1D2, and compare it to 15% of 1D6. Also, you'd be sucking pretty hard against anything immune to crits.
Throg 08-31-06, 05:01 PM	The shiruken of death.. Exotic 1d2 18-20/x4 throwing weapon, comes out to 100% :) Fear my 4d2's on a crit! Fear the 4-8 damage 15% of the time.. It's balanced, but who'd take it?
Seerow 08-31-06, 05:10 PM	Okay... so start with 100% -30% exotic, -15% Two Handed. 55% +30% 18-20x4 +10% 1d6 +5% Reach Impaler of DOOM 1d6 18-20x4 Two Handed Reach Weapon. ^I give you the ideal weapon for all charge builds.
LordPendragon 08-31-06, 07:03 PM	Okay... so start with 100% -30% exotic, -15% Two Handed. 55% +30% 18-20x4 +10% 1d6 +5% Reach Impaler of DOOM 1d6 18-20x4 Two Handed Reach Weapon. ^I give you the ideal weapon for all charge builds.Bump the damage down a step, and throw in the lance's ability set with the x2 on a charge and one-handed while mounted. Then it's the Horseback Impaling Spike of DOOOOM!!!
Jhaelen 08-31-06, 07:39 PM	First let me say that I'm quite impressed. It's great to have such a system to make sanity-checks when new weapons are introduced in supplements. However, I have to agree with The_Geek to a certain degree: I like the idea of trying to calculate 'balance', but it's ultimately pointless.Weapons don't exist in a vacuum. Damage is affected by all kinds of other things, like feats, spells, materials, magic weapon qualities, etc. So, unless you manage to create a similar balance system for every other game mechanic that can potentially change the effectiveness of a weapon, it's a purely academic exercise. There's an additional cave-at: Such point-based or percentage-based systems are always problematic when combining extremes. Unless you have additional restrictions by not allowing certain combinations you end up with weapons that are utterly unrealistic or situationally unbalanced. This is an inherent flaw of these systems if they are used as a basis for min-max-designs that can ultimately only be alleviated by applying common sense. So, the system can be used to identify weapons that are not balanced but it cannot be used to prove or guarantee that a weapon is balanced.
Xeviat-DM 08-31-06, 10:20 PM	The shiruken of death.. Exotic 1d2 18-20/x4 throwing weapon, comes out to 100% :) Fear my 4d2's on a crit! Fear the 4-8 damage 15% of the time.. It's balanced, but who'd take it? It's not the 4d2 that's the problem; it's the x4 strength damage 15% of the time. As for the OP's system, I hadn't realized that they worked that way. Seems your system works, then, since you've covered for that. The original point system Conjurer created just seems easier to deal with, but to each their own. PS: Your system shows that the light mace and heavy mace are 95% weapons, which is untrue. This happens because you don't have a 20/x2 crit cost 5%; you could also fix this by decreasing the cost for crits by 5% and decreasing the percentage reduction for weapon proficiencies by 5%. Heck, even my earlier statements could be used to say a one-handed exotic 1d6 19/x3 weapon is balanced, but it isn't. Between Strength, specialization, and enhancement bonuses, such a weapon will do far more damage than a 1d10 19/x2 one-hander (bastard sword).
OrbitalB 08-31-06, 11:21 PM	There is also the thought that anything with an 18-20 or a 4x multiplier should never have the other side of the critical higher than the minimum. So far nothing exists with x4 multi on anything more than a 20, and only 1 thing has an 18-20 higher than x2 (braid blade). Most potential crit abuses could be avoided by simply putting [20 threat only] beside the x4 entry. And perhaps [x2 multiplier only] beside the 18-20 entry... but that would invalidate the braid blade. That said, I left it open for now because I'd like descussion on the subject. For example... the shuriken of death (above) it quite powerful when one considers strength bonus to damage. Thoughts?
OrbitalB 09-01-06, 12:37 AM	PS: Your system shows that the light mace and heavy mace are 95% weapons, which is untrue. This happens because you don't have a 20/x2 crit cost 5%; you could also fix this by decreasing the cost for crits by 5% and decreasing the percentage reduction for weapon proficiencies by 5%. 95% is within limits, just a little weak... which the maces are. That simply illustrates this system's ability to show that a weapon is 'ok' (within limits), yet highlights if a weapon is a bit on the weak or strong side of 'ok'. That said, i'm going to examine a 5% cost on 20/x2, and simply extending the system to include the reasonable combinations of crit/multi.
Xeviat-DM 09-01-06, 01:35 AM	95% is within limits, just a little weak... which the maces are. That simply illustrates this system's ability to show that a weapon is 'ok' (within limits), yet highlights if a weapon is a bit on the weak or strong side of 'ok'. I don't know, I still vote that the dagger is an overpowered simple weapon (its throwing range should be removed; people don't throw daggers, they throw throwing daggers, which are represented by darts). The morning star is fine, because the addition of piercing damage generally does nothing (I can't recall a creature with piercing DR). In my opinion, there are only a few PHB weapons that are out of balance. If you care, I'll list them (and my proposed fixes). As for your system and the crit issue, just simply list prices for each critical style, like you did, but include the range/multiplier: 19-20/x2 = 10% 20/x3 = 10% 18-20/x2 = 15% 20/x4 = 15% If you add 20/x2 = 5%, you can make weapons which cannot crit and give them 20/x1 (such as subdual weapons; I use WP/VP system so I've taken to believe that crits represent injuries, so a subdual weapon cannot crit) have an extra 5% worth of abilities. Like a sap could be a 20/x1 weapon, but on a crit it provokes a fort save vs. daze, or something like that. Just tossing out ideas.
OrbitalB 09-01-06, 01:38 AM	As for your system and the crit issue, just simply list prices for each critical style, like you did, but include the range/multiplier That's kinda funny, I just editted my previous post saying i was just looking into that :) It so far looks like it's working out fine, and I'll be dropping the 'monk' ability to 5% (seams more resonable) and it balances those weapons better (seeing as they're all 20/x2). EDIT: K, some changes... I think for the better. Changed cost of crit/multi to ‘precalculate’ for each combination. Included a cost 20/x2 of 5% (a 5% damage increase). I also lowered ‘monk’, ‘thrown’, and ‘shieldweapon’ by 5% each to re-balance those items... they were all 20/x2, and had the +5% basically rolled into their cost before.
OrbitalB 09-01-06, 02:40 AM	Well, I hammered our the new numbers with that small change. It evens out the PHB weapons even nicer, which I like to see. One sore spot, though... and this is not new... is the Javelin. Darned thing can't decide if it's a strictly thrown weapon or if it's actually a melee weapon that just throws better than it is wielded melee. So it fudges the numbers calculated as a 'thrown' weapon. Does anyone know where one finds out how one wields a javelin in melee, btw? Is it as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon? [If we pretend it is a 1-handed Exotic (which explains our -4 non-proficiency penalty), it totals 98%... charge a small fee for having no penalty if thrown... could work out ok I suppose]
boozerker 09-01-06, 03:23 AM	It's a pretty admirable feat to have calculated all that. The two systems listed imply that all weapons basically even out in damage over the length of a battle. How strange if true. But it makes sense if you think that in the end, any weapon hurts just the same. How would guns be affected by it? (yeah, guns don't belong in D&D but still ...wondering). And how do weapons from Arms and Equipment Guide hold up against your formulas? I don't know, I still vote that the dagger is an overpowered simple weapon (its throwing range should be removed; people don't throw daggers, they throw throwing daggers, which are represented by darts). The morning star is fine, because the addition of piercing damage generally does nothing (I can't recall a creature with piercing DR). How are daggers overpowered? If it's just the throwing range, then make daggers which aren't specially made for throwing treated as improvised when thrown. But dagger damage is so puny, how could it be overpowered -- or even compare to bigger weapons? In my opinion, there are only a few PHB weapons that are out of balance. If you care, I'll list them (and my proposed fixes). Go ahead, curious. :)
The_Geek 09-01-06, 01:02 PM	Well, we can disagree on that point One thing your calculations don't take into effect is, for want of a better term, something I refer to as the crunch factor. Your table lists a 20 x3 and a 19-20 x2 both at 10%. For a D8 weapon, the average damage is exactly the same (4.95). However, if your opponent has DR 16, the 19-20 x2 weapon is useless. In the same vein, if you are commonly coming up against opponents with 17 hp, you cannot 1-shot them with the 19-20 x2 weapon, but have a (whopping :D ) 3/160 chance with the 20 x3. I should have qualified my earlier comment of 'pointless'. You have done a very good job at a system that quantifies weapons, and allows them to be compared. However, there are some things that are situation dependant, as the above two examples show, and are thus unquantifiable. Or to be more explicit, which is the better weapon? If your foes are 10 hp, a D8 19-20x2 is better, if 17 hp, the D8 20x3; how does one calculate which is the better weapon overall? (Unless you can tell in advance what the DM is going to throw at you)
Xeviat-DM 09-01-06, 03:10 PM	It's a pretty admirable feat to have calculated all that. The two systems listed imply that all weapons basically even out in damage over the length of a battle. How strange if true. But it makes sense if you think that in the end, any weapon hurts just the same. How would guns be affected by it? (yeah, guns don't belong in D&D but still ...wondering). And how do weapons from Arms and Equipment Guide hold up against your formulas? How are daggers overpowered? If it's just the throwing range, then make daggers which aren't specially made for throwing treated as improvised when thrown. But dagger damage is so puny, how could it be overpowered -- or even compare to bigger weapons? Go ahead, curious. :) The fact that a dagger is a more powerful weapon than a throwing axe or a light hammer, that's what. And yes, those weapons are a little on the weak side, but the dagger is a little on the strong side. To the OP: "Monk Weapon" does not make a weapon more powerful. Only the monk can use Flurry, and the monk gets proficiency in all of the "monk" weapons automatically. The Kama and Sickle are statistically identical; the Kama should be a simple weapon (heck, they should be the same weapon).
boozerker 09-01-06, 04:30 PM	The fact that a dagger is a more powerful weapon than a throwing axe or a light hammer, that's what. And yes, those weapons are a little on the weak side, but the dagger is a little on the strong side. That's strange. Thrown daggers should do less damage anyway because they don't have the force of an arm driving it deeper into flesh. That way throwing hammers can do more damage than a thrown dagger. But a hand-held dagger and a light hammer seem like they would do about equal damage, but a dagger shouldn't have a larger crit range than a light hammer. Also, aren't you going to post your fix for those few PHB weapons you mentioned are unbalanced?
Xeviat-DM 09-01-06, 07:18 PM	Yes, soon. I'm heading down to my FLGS after work, and I'll post when I get home.
Ranger REG 09-01-06, 10:31 PM	Comments are more than welcome. My goal is to make this even more comprehensive, but still easy to chew on.Kinda hard to chew on, when the in the course of historical and technological progress, the purpose of developing a new weapon is to outshine the existing ones.
Etiquette_Gnome 09-02-06, 05:08 AM	Hmm...let's see if my idea of a gun would work here. Note, I'm using something closer to the arquebus to explain the comparatively low damage and range. The primary advantage/tactic would be using it as an opener, because you could realistically carry it loaded, fire it once at the beginning, and go to some other tactic. Really, the only reason I'd prefer this weapon over the X-Bow is for being stored loaded option. Gun: Simple, Ranged (1d6, 80' range, 20/x3) -20% Simple -10% Projectile 10% 20/x3 Critical 0% Full-round Reload (provokes AoO) 0% -2 attack penalty with one hand fire (kickback) 15% 1d6 base damage 5% Can be stored loaded
OrbitalB 09-04-06, 06:13 AM	Further testing showed that the base value for simple and martial (interestingly enough) should be the same... so that change has been made. This fixed a number of issues, and put the dagger into better perspective (still extra-powered, but no longer over-powered. Also, an extra 1% cost on the base for having a thrown range, cleaned up a few things... that change has also been made. I also added a list of the PHB weapons and their calculations, for easy reference, as the second post in this thread.
Xeviat-DM 09-04-06, 12:49 PM	What? Simple and martial being the same? Light mace 1d6 20/x2 simple light Hand axe 1d6 20/x3 martial light Why on earth would simple weapons be as good as martial weapons? If you're basing that off the few simples that are as powerful, or more powerful, than the weak martials, that's a pretty strange arguement. Please stop while you're ahead and listen to us. PS: here are the weapons I think are weak or too powerful, and my solutions: Weak: Light Hammer: Increase damage to 1d6 (unless you really think the higher throwing range warrants the weaker damage). Sap: Make simple (it's as powerful as a light mace; you can't tell me that a weapon dealing subdual damage makes it more powerful ...) Kama/Saingham: Make simple (compare Kama to Sickle ... I'll give you a second ... are you done? See a difference? Weight and cost hu? Oh, Kama's a Monk weapon? Does the Monk start with proficiency in Kama? Can anyone else flurry without taking a level of Monk? Taking a level of Monk would grant proficiency in the Kama, wouldn't it? Thought so ...) Nunchaku/Sai: Could both be simple, but are a little more powerful than other simples. Nunchaku and Flail are *very* similar, so just increase the nunchaku's disarm bonus to +4 and make martial. Make the sai martial too, no changes, and you should be fine. Whip: Make martial; make an exotic version that deals 1d4 damage and can deal lethal damage; remove the stupid armor restrictions (if you want armor to protect against attacks, use Armor as DR; you can't have your cake and eat it too). Urgrosh: Spear end is slightly weak; just increase it's damage to 1d8 and you're cool. Too Powerful: Dagger: Remove throwing (if someone wants a throwing dagger, give them a dart). Spear: Reduce critical multiplier to x2 (it still deals more damage than a short spear). Heavy Flail: Increase damage to 1d12 and reduce critical range to 20/x2 (like the flail). That's really it.
OrbitalB 09-04-06, 06:18 PM	Why on earth would simple weapons be as good as martial weapons? If you're basing that off the few simples that are as powerful, or more powerful, than the weak martials, that's a pretty strange arguement. Please stop while you're ahead and listen to us. Actually it's based fact... listen to us on this. (is there more than one of you?) I said its was 'interesting enough'. Do the math yourself, and you'll see. The numbers don't lie. With the couple small changes I've made since the first post, the number of 100% on the money weapons has grown by a few, and the number of weapons outside the 95% to 105% range has been reduced to 4 (including the javelin which actualy comes to 103% if calculated reasonably). Those are pretty good numbers. I actually do know what I'm talking about here, but you opinions are welcome.
OrbitalB 09-04-06, 06:29 PM	What? Simple and martial being the same? Light mace 1d6 20/x2 simple light Hand axe 1d6 20/x3 martial light btw. Light Mace comes in at 95%, and the Hand Axe at 100%... both within acceptable margins using this system, but illustrating that the hand axe is marginally better. (are you trying to suggest that it isn't?) Not sure how that discredits the system at all. In fact I think that shows it's pretty bang on, more so than when simple weapons had a different initial value.
Dark Brandon 09-04-06, 09:31 PM	The shiruken of death.. Exotic 1d2 18-20/x4 throwing weapon, comes out to 100% :) Fear my 4d2's on a crit! Fear the 4-8 damage 15% of the time.. It's balanced, but who'd take it? Make it a slashing weapon, and I'd probably dump a feat into imp. crit and work to get vorpal on it. Not saying it'd be a great weapon (what, a simitar has the same crit range right?), but it would be a neat visual to go around decapin things with something the size of a clipped toenail.
OrbitalB 09-05-06, 10:05 AM	More tests, more results :) It seams (when looking through non-PHB books) that they are putting a diminishing value on damage dice at the higher end of the scale. This translates into something more like 3% per +1 average, as opposed to the 5% I had it at until now. This puts the greatsword and greataxe in at 103% rather than 105%, which is a better representation of their power level. And this change is a similarly better fit for most high damage dice weapons from the completes/races/etc. Anyhow, those changes have been made.
Thelon Fairblade 09-05-06, 11:59 AM	Shuriken of death -- yes, the x4 STR damage. But consider this: shocking/icy/flaming burst! 15% +3d10 damage! Anyway... this is a lot of effort. what is the point? the benefit of all this? As a GM you should be able to eyeball a weapon and see if it looks balanced. If not, don't allow it. If so, use it. If you were wrong, fix it. Simple: 1-handed, 1d8, 20x2. (morningstar) Go from there. Martial = +1 die size or threat range or crit mult. Exotic = +2 steps. 1 die size = 1 threat range = 1 crit mult = 1 or 2 specials Light = -1 step 2-handed = +1 step Done.
Xeviat-DM 09-05-06, 12:50 PM	btw. Light Mace comes in at 95%, and the Hand Axe at 100%... both within acceptable margins using this system, but illustrating that the hand axe is marginally better. (are you trying to suggest that it isn't?) Not sure how that discredits the system at all. In fact I think that shows it's pretty bang on, more so than when simple weapons had a different initial value. My point is that you're saying a simple weapon "can" add up to 100 percent, thus you're saying that I could make a simple weapon that was a light slashing weapon for 1d6 20/x3. All simples should be weaker than all martials.
boozerker 09-05-06, 12:52 PM	The reason to make such a system is because you can. Question, OrbitalB. What if you have Projectile (100ft+)[no drawback], what's its percentage?
Patrick Draken-Korin 09-05-06, 02:03 PM	I have to agree with Xeviat-DM; just because you can make the value reach 100% doesn't mean you have to. Leaving the simple weapons at -20% may mean that they are more out of sych with the bottom line, but it would more accurately show thier difference from martial weapons. And i'd also suggest separating the 1d8/2d4 and 1d12/2d6 damages; if you aren't restricting them to a 5% scale, then it might be wise to aknowledge the slight superiority of a higher average damage. An example; 1d8 20% 2d4 22% 1d10 25% 1d12 28% 2d6 30% 3d4 32% 2d8 34% 3d6 37% (oh, and i'd add this as well) 2d10 40% Just my 2 Cp.
OrbitalB 09-05-06, 07:00 PM	My point is that you're saying a simple weapon "can" add up to 100 percent, thus you're saying that I could make a simple weapon that was a light slashing weapon for 1d6 20/x3. All simples should be weaker than all martials. My point is, why are you making a simple weapon? You'll notice that the completes/races/etc have no simple (nor martial for that matter) weapons. If it's something new, it's really likely it's something exotic.
OrbitalB 09-05-06, 07:02 PM	The reason to make such a system is because you can. Question, OrbitalB. What if you have Projectile (100ft+)[no drawback], what's its percentage? The two projectile values cost nothing, they are simply there to illustrate for a person that they fall into those two (very general) catagories, and that if it is the longer range thing it should have a drawback as well. It's just a reminder, basically.
OrbitalB 09-05-06, 07:13 PM	I have to agree with Xeviat-DM; just because you can make the value reach 100% doesn't mean you have to. Leaving the simple weapons at -20% may mean that they are more out of sych with the bottom line, but it would more accurately show thier difference from martial weapons. I don't beleave it does. As Xeviate-DM already pointed out, the light mace and the hand axe are not at the same level, and should not be. Leaving the simple weapons at -20% had them both come in (equal) at 100%... they are not equal, and should not both come in at 100%. The hand axe is better, and the numbers now reflect that. And i'd also suggest separating the 1d8/2d4 and 1d12/2d6 damages; if you aren't restricting them to a 5% scale, then it might be wise to aknowledge the slight superiority of a higher average damage. An example; 1d8 20% 2d4 22% 1d10 25% 1d12 28% 2d6 30% 3d4 32% 2d8 34% 3d6 37% (oh, and i'd add this as well) 2d10 40% Just my 2 Cp. Very interesting idea. I'll run some tests on that and see how it holds up to the reverse engineering. Just at a glance, it looks promissing. Though, I don't think i'll include 3d4 nor 3d6. They are not recognized damage values for medium weapons [as provided by table 7-4, PHB pg114]. If they ever become so, i'll definetly include them.
highbulp 09-05-06, 09:04 PM	The one thing I don't understand: why do two-handed weapons get a "penalty"? Isn't a two-handed weapon generally stronger (1.5xSTR, 2xPower Attack, harder to disarm)? I'm not sure I believe that the ability to use your other hand is much better than all the bonuses (especially since you can switch from carrying to wielding as a Free Action IIRC).
Xeviat-DM 09-05-06, 09:45 PM	I don't beleave it does. As Xeviate-DM already pointed out, the light mace and the hand axe are not at the same level, and should not be. Leaving the simple weapons at -20% had them both come in (equal) at 100%... they are not equal, and should not both come in at 100%. The hand axe is better, and the numbers now reflect that. Wait, what? I thought the goal of your system was to have every weapon reach 100%; that's why simple weapons give a smaller percentage reduction at the onset than martials do. And I have a simple weapon that should be made but hasn't: machette. In my games, it's a one-handed 1d8 20/x2 simple slashing weapon.
OrbitalB 09-06-06, 12:34 AM	Actually, the goal of the system is to reverse engineer the current weapon balances, and to provide a system to quantify that. The easiest way to quantify that is to target the factors towards a common point (in this case 100%). That said. Reaching 100% is not as important as reaching the power point each weapon should [ie. 99- if they're weak, 100 if they're balanced with the standard, or above 101+ by an appropriate amount]. So no, i don't want to see a weak weapon (like a mace) come in at 100%, as it isn't equal considering the state of balance. And finally, if all that's too much to understand here's a simple reason for ya. Before I dropped the simple weapon starting point to -25% there were only 4 simples that equaled 100%, and now there are 5. There also was (and is no longer) two weapons considered 'broken' by the system [dagger, and spear] which are nolonger considered 'broken', only 'powerful' which is appropriate for those weapons.
OrbitalB 09-06-06, 12:36 AM	I've also gotten rid of the 18-20/x3 range as my source providing an official weapon with those numbers... was mistaken. I've double checked that dungeon magazine, and the braid blade is only an 18-20/x2 weapon. This is quite good, as it was broken (according to this system) but is nolonger. Also, the only reason the 19-20/x3 range was provided was because 18-20/x3 was... there are no weapons with either of those numbers, so they have both been removed.
boozerker 09-06-06, 05:22 AM	How does your system handle some of the weapons from the Arms and Equipment Guide? Might want to test a few here and there, just to see.
OrbitalB 09-06-06, 06:11 AM	The A&E Guide is a 3.0 book, and this system is designed for 3.5, but that said; First convert the weapon to 3.5, and then check it against the system. Butterfly Sword: 100% Khopesh: 100% Duom: 95% Chakram: 104% I just picked one to check from each catagory and they all fell within margins.
boozerker 09-06-06, 07:55 AM	How do you convert a weapon to 3.5?
Xeviat-DM 09-06-06, 01:22 PM	How do you convert a weapon to 3.5? Medium weapons become one-handed weapons, large weapons become two-handed weapons, small and tiny weapons become light weapons; it's pretty simple. I still object to your assumption that the mace is a weak weapon. The mace represents one of the examples of what a simple weapon should be. When you compare the heavy mace to the longsword, you see exactly what you should see: the longsword has 1 ability better (in this case, threat range); if you think damage types are really different, then I'll use heavy mace vs. warhammer (warhammer has higher critical multiplier). Saying that simple, martial, and exotic weapons should add up to 100%, and then not taking attempts to ensure this, is rediculous. You're saying that because the morning star is more powerful than the heavy mace, you're going to make the system balanced for the morning star, dagger, and spear (the slightly more powerful simple weapons), rather than balancing it for the majority of them? I'm sorry, but I believe I'm dropping out of this discussion. When your system shows that every simple weapon but the dagger, morning star, and spear are underbalanced, it's flawed.
OrbitalB 09-10-06, 02:57 PM	Few more modifications: - Removed the starting values for Proficiency all-together, to help dispell any notion that a weapon balancing system should start by unbalancing the weapons. Instead, added a -5% value for Exotic Weapon Feat Requirement. - Broadened the damage catagories to recognize the higher min/avg damage of 2d4 and 2d6.
Sphyre 12-01-06, 01:12 AM	Weapon Percentages: [95% to 105% = Fine] PHB: 114% – Javelin ~snip~ Final Comments: When applying this system to the PHB weapons, almost all fall within the 95%-105% margins, with most hitting 100% exactly. One notable exception is the javelin. It stands out coming in at 114%, but this is because it seams (*seems) to be confused as to whether it is a truly ‘ranged’ (thrown exclusively) weapon, or simply a melee weapon that can be thrown better than it can be wielded in melee combat. If we pretend it is a 1-handed Exotic (which explains our -4 non-proficiency penalty), it totals 98%... charge a small fee [5%] for having no penalty if thrown, and it falls nicely at 103%. Wha?? Javelin Medium Damage: 1d6 Crit Range: 20/x2 Range Increment:30 ft. Weight: 2 lb. Damage: Piercing Javelin: Since it is not designed for melee, you are treated as nonproficient with it and take a –4 penalty on attack rolls if you use a javelin as a melee weapon. Ranged Weapon: Thrown -25% Projectile (under 100ft) 0% Damage: 1d6 15% Crit Range: 20/x2 5% Thrown (10ft base range) 6% Thrown (+20ft range) +8% One Damage type: Peircing 0% Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. It's a weapon similar to a medium sized club that peirces so it would do 1d6 damage as an improved weapon, -4 to hit nonproficiency, and crit range is the same, as the Improved Weapon Rules. The description of it's melee usage is nothing other than a reiteration of the improvised weapon rules, as such it should not get any bonus or penalty, for simply stating the rules over again for improvised use of it. Total: 109% A "lil" overpowered using your system I guess... but adding 5% for something that is usable for anything is how you got a higher number. What really makes this stand out as a high number is really the fact that it actually has a pretty good range increment, and range increments cost a lot in your system In fact, for being a ranged weapon you get -25%, but you have to have a range increment so you have to have at least a +6%, meaning all thrown ranged weapons start off automatically at -19%. If you make the same thing a One-Handed Melee Weapon and give it a range you have -30%, or start off at -24%, and you don't have a penalty for using it in melee. So if we scootch thrown weapons upto -30%, this brings everything to: Dart: 95% Bolas: 96% Shuriken: ** (Depends on how you want to score it's special abilities) Javelin: 104% This puts everything in line with the 95-105% goodness. Even then, it's kind of silly that melee weapons with a range increment cost the same as a ranged weapon (-4 nonproficiency to melee with it) with the same range increment.
Longarms 12-01-06, 01:45 AM	The one-handed reach weapon from the DMG (pg 145) is widely regarded as overpowered. Let's check it: Light Melee Weapon -25% 1d6 15% 20/x2 5% Exotic Proficiency Required -5% Trip 5% Disarm Bonus (per +2) 5% Reach 5% Reach (Inclusive) +5% = 110%, indeed your system shows that it is too powerful. An easy fix suggested by many people on the forums is to lower the damage to 1d4, which would put the weapon at 105% :eek: Another good one. I asked on the boards what stats an estoc should have. A lot of people contributed, and I think together we created a pretty balanced weapon. Here is what we came up with: Two-Handed Melee Weapon -40% 2d4 22% 18-20/x2 15% Weapon Finesse (non-light) 5% Weighs in at 102%. Looks about right! Notice this has the same stats as the falchion, except that it is finessable. I always thought the falchion (97%) was a little weak.
Longarms 12-01-06, 02:01 AM	I think your system is a great first sanity check for people creating new weapons. Although one sometimes has to use common sense and must not blindly follow the system, because the system is clearly abusable. Here is an example: The sneak attacking weapon... Light Melee Weapon -25% 1d4 10% 20/x2 5% finessable (light) 0% Reach 5% Reach (Inclusive) +5% = 100% At 100%, the system tells me that the weapon is well-balanced, and that it should consider let it come into my campaign. However, once I let it into my campaign, well I ever see another rogue using a scimitar/short sword, or two short swords, or a longsword/shortsword, or any other combination??? Not likely, I would expect them to head towards this thing like moths to a flame. Still, very impressive :)
Longarms 12-01-06, 02:14 AM	"The shiruken of death.. Exotic 1d2 18-20/x4 throwing weapon, comes out to 100% Fear my 4d2's on a crit! Fear the 4-8 damage 15% of the time.. It's balanced, but who'd take it?" Well, considering that bonuses to damage (e.g. STR bonus) are multiplied on a critical, I think a Monk with high STR that was good at throwing weapons would want one of these. Other examples would be any strong weapon throwers, or weapon throwers that get to use dex for damage (I think there is some feat that lets you do that). Pretty much anyone with a high + to damage would have alot of fun throwing these. +10 to damage x 4 on a crit??? I'll take it
Niren 12-01-06, 09:57 AM	I like this! OrbitalB, Do you have the final chart? I have a spredsheet that creates Dioblo style named weapons that now if I can have permission to use this system I could keep them closer to balance.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 12-01-06, 10:52 AM	Very nice work OrbitalB. :) (I can't recall a creature with piercing DR). The Rakshasa has DR 15/good and piercing. :P
Niren 12-01-06, 06:37 PM	Long Composite Bow Ranged Weapon: Projectile -35% 1d8 20% 20/x3 10% Useable on Horse back 05% Str bonus Ajustment(?) 05% Total 105% Did I get it correct?
Niren 12-02-06, 02:02 AM	Oriental Horse Bow 1d10, 19-20/x2, range 90’ Because of it’s off centered grip it requires a EWP to use. This bow can be adjusted for strength (like a composite) Projectile weapon -35 EWP -5 1d10 +25 19-20/x2 +10 Composite ability +05 Balanced I Like this system If you add a -5 because it is not easily used indoors (ie dungeons) or in cramped areas while standing because the off centered grip requires 3'-3.5' clearance you could increase the damage to 2d6 or crit range to 18-20/x2
Sphyre 12-02-06, 11:57 AM	Oriental Horse Bow it's missing it's reload time.
Niren 12-02-06, 03:06 PM	I thought reload time is for cross bows only? Long Composite Bow Ranged Weapon: Projectile -35% 1d8 20% 20/x3 10% Useable on Horse back 05% Str bonus Ajustment(?) 05% If you add 10% for reload it will not match up. Total 105% 105% – Flail / Flail, heavy / Greatsword / Flail, dire / Longbow / Longbow, composite
Patrick Draken-Korin 12-02-06, 07:38 PM	Yeah, bows reload as a free action. Crossbows have a reload time, but can be fired 1 handed (with some difficulty). Projectile Weapon Special Note: Projectile weapons basically come in two types; Drawn and Loaded. Drawn weapons (bows) require two hands to use, and only a free action to reload. But, they suffer Strength penalties (if any) to damage. Loaded weapons (crossbows/sling) generally use two hands, but will allow an optional one handed firing (but not reloading) at a penalty. ------ That "poor use in cramped conditions", meaning within room equal to the creature's space, is an inetersting idea, but logically, many weapons would suffer thant and I'd personally prefer avoiding that type of modifier (too easy to apply to too many weapons). If you don't have a problem with the complications it would cause, I'd agree that's a fair penalty. ------ As for critical multipliers, I think 18-20/x4 would be 45%. Okay, 40% if you're generous. You don't add the two factors, you judge by actual worth of the composite critical modifier. A 1/20 chance to deal 2x damage is 5%. Each additional multiplier is another 5% (x3 is 10% and x4 is 15%). Each additional 1/20 chance to deal 2x damage is another 5% (2/20 or 19-20 is 10% and 3/20 or 18-20 is 15%). Now do these overlap or stack? 2/20 at 3x (19-20/x3) could be 15% if overlapping or 20% if stacking. > 2/20 and x3 (19-20/x4) could be 20% if overlapping or 30% if stacking. > 3/20 and x3 (18-20/x3) could be 25% if overlapping or 30% if stacking. > 3/20 and x4 (18-20/x4) could be 30% if overlapping or 45% is stacking. However you do it... that's you're choice. If you caclulate out the precentages and everything, or if you don't think any of that matters, it's going to produce different results. In my opinion, the higher percentage applies, and I won't allow anything above 19/x3. ------ Here's a new simple weapon. Throwing club. Ranged, 20ft increment, 1d3 damage, 20/x2, only used for melee combat as an improvised weapon. There are several possible simple weapons. The reason no one posts or publishes them is simply that they aren't all that interesting or useful compared to already-made weapons. Why make a simple version of the machete if you can make an exotic one? It's not lack of possiblity or creativity, just interest for the most part. ------ And as for the javelin, the "can be used for melee as an improvised weapon" seems either a simple non-issue (no modifier), or even as a penalty (though only a -1% or -2% one). ------ Hmm. I think that was around 5 Cp this time.
Niren 12-02-06, 08:32 PM	Ok so then how would a long Composite bow be calculated Long Composite Bow Ranged Weapon: Projectile -35% 1d8 20% 20/x3 10% Useable on Horse back 05% Str bonus Ajustment(?) 05% If you add the reload time 10% it makes the total 115% not the 105% Orbitalb gave on page 1. But the short bow -35% +15% 1d6 +10% x3 +10% reload free action is correct but if this was a short composite the +5% for Str enhancement would place it at 105% Bottom line is I don't disagree I just want to do it right.
ludomastro 12-02-06, 09:21 PM	OrbitalB, Formally requesting permission to copy and use above system.
OrbitalB 12-03-06, 08:42 PM	Absolutely. I made it so people could use it. Have fun.
OrbitalB 12-05-06, 08:15 AM	Ok so then how would a long Composite bow be calculated Long Composite Bow Ranged Weapon: Projectile -35% 1d8 20% 20/x3 10% Useable on Horse back 05% Str bonus Ajustment(?) 05% If you add the reload time 10% it makes the total 115% not the 105% Orbitalb gave on page 1. But the short bow -35% +15% 1d6 +10% x3 +10% reload free action is correct but if this was a short composite the +5% for Str enhancement would place it at 105% Bottom line is I don't disagree I just want to do it right. The potential strength bonus is not a balancing factor for the system because it is completely dependant on whether or not a person has a strength bonus, and then limited by the items strength rating. IOW, this factor is too inconsistant to balance with the point system, and it is balanced by the cost of the item. [similar to how masterwork is not a consideration in the system] About the [drawback] thing. My bad :embarrass. I forgot about the 'comp usable mounted' crap altogether. Doesn't make a lick of sense, but that's a completeky different arguement... So it would total 110% on the LongComp, and is (thus) a bit overpowered according to the system... but not too much. Thanks for pointing it out, it has been changed on the list to 110%. (although it wouldn;t be unreasonable for a person to only apply a +3% or so to it, making it even less out of bounds)
Niren 12-05-06, 08:31 AM	Thanks for taking the time creating this. I know it will help me alot.
Red_Marrian 12-06-06, 11:45 PM	Here's a little combination that I'm *in love* with: arm yourself with a Flamberge (wavy bladed greatsword, detailed in Gryphon's book of weapons), 2h martial, 3d4 19-20/x3, make it keen or take improved critical for a threat range of 17-20, and then go for the Weapon Master (Sword & First). By the time you finish that prestige class, you can use Ki damage on a non-critical hit to deliver the maximum non-critical damage 10 times per day, or Ki critical to increase the multiplier to x4 on a critical hit 4 times per day, and your critical threat range increases by 2 more to 15-20. On top of that you can make Whirlwind attacks as a standard action, besides the Superior Weapon Focus and Superior Combat Reflexes. Then, if you can squeeze it in, take the Living Blade prestige class from Quintessential Fighter and when you complete those 5 levels you'll have an extra attack at your lowest bonus, which you can expend to deny an enemy their lowest-bonus attack, you get another bonus to attack and everyone in melee against you takes a -1 hit to their AC. Top it all off, if you're going Epic and have the levels to play with, with the goodness that is making yourself a Kensai, and that Flamberge of yours becomes a hot little piece of steel.
Niren 12-07-06, 08:52 AM	[QUOTE=Red_Marrian;10843684]Here's a little combination that I'm *in love* with:arm yourself with a Flamberge (wavy bladed greatsword, detailed in Gryphon's book of weapons), 2h martial, 3d4 19-20/x3, QUOTE] 2hnd weapon -40% damage 3d4 +32% (? greater than 2d6 less than 2d8) CR 19-20/x3 +20% The weapon is out of balance by 12%, over powered by 7% If you use this system the weapon never makes it off the forge
risner 12-07-06, 02:41 PM	2hnd weapon -40% damage 3d4 +32% (? greater than 2d6 less than 2d8) CR 19-20/x3 +20% First, there are no official 3.5 version 19-20/x3 weapons. So anything with that crit should be done as 20/x5 since that is what it is. Second, what is 3d4? Why did you pick this damage range?
Niren 12-07-06, 08:20 PM	I am not sure why, Red_Marrian thought it would pass. Reading this thread places his weapon as not balanced & over powered. It proves that making a new weapon needs more than a name "Flamberge" to fit. But this system also would allow some weapons to vary from the norm but gives a great way to Check for balance. Flamberge II 2hd weapon -40 EWP -05 damage 1d12 +28% CR 19-20x3 +20% Gives it a +3% over balance but within the +- 05% As a DM Red_Marrian's Flamberge I wouldn't allow, Flamberge II I would.
Spikes01k 12-07-06, 10:00 PM	Dragon’s Talons Type: Exotic Weapon and Exotic Shield (requires both feats to get any function) Price: 1200 gold, even though you need both to make the weapon work properly, treat gauntlet as costing 700 gold and the shield costing 500 gold for purposes of replacment when one is borken. Greater Dragon Bladed Gauntlet Exotic Weapon Light Weapon Damage: 2D4 damage Critical: 18-20/x2 Type: Slashing Material: Normally Steel Special: If the shield is broken the damage is reduced to 1d6 with a critical modifier of only x2 for the weapon aspect of the Dragon's Talons, -1 to all attack rolls you make, attacks suffer a -3 to hit with weapons in that hand, you still keep the Armor check penalty, and arcane spell chance failure so of the shield, as long as you have the weapon attached; effectively making the weapon useless. Alright, I am pritty sure the weapon is balanced. please correct me if I am wrong. 100% 2d4 22% 18-20/x2 15% Light Melee Weapon -25% Exotic Proficiency Required -5% Extra Specialized Abilities: Requirs two exotic proficencies to be used, other item intact or else they get negitives, and needs a great deal of time to remove -7%? Total: 100% Exotic Shield Greater Dragon Buckler AC: 0 (special, read below) Acane spell chance failure: 10% Armor Check penalty: -2 Material: Normally Steel Special: If the Weapon is destroyed the shield function just can not be used. Even though this shield does not provide shield armor class itself it does allow you to use magical shield effects as if it was a shield. You may use weapons in the same hand, or use this hand to hold a two handed weapon, but all attacks suffer a -3 to hit, however you do not give a -3 to attack with the gauntlet part of this weapon. You also do not lose your shield bonus when attacking with the Dragon's Talons weapon. Dragon's Talons General Characterisics: Removing Dragon's Talon's takes twice as long as a normal buckler. Untrained this is nothing but a spiked gauntlet except the damage is slashing not piercing. Treat the shield and gauntlet part as two separate items during a sunder attempt. As for the Shield I have no clue, PLEASE, sugestions on systems, or simply a yes/no and why would be helpful!
Patrick Draken-Korin 01-10-07, 10:13 PM	Okay, here's a thought; how valuable are trip weapon's anyway? The only two effects are that the tripping weapon offers any enhancment bonus (and the rare other applicable enhancment), and that you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped in return. Well, the first is nice, but you could probably make some kind of charm or another (amulet, ring, unslotted) that offers the same effect, maybe even for cheaper (limited effect attack bonus, probably 1/4 the value of a weapon enhancement bonus, or +value squared x 500 Gp). Besides that's only applicable to magial weapons, and the trip quality should be weighed more in a general sense. Secondly, you can drop the weapon if you fail the trip attempt and fail to avoid the return trip attempt. Yeah, now your weapon's on the ground either to be picked up (move action, AoO) or for you to do without to the end of the fight. Your opponent can even take the weapon now, if willing to suffer the AoO, without having to disarm you. Gee I'm glad I can drop my weapon when the situation calls for it. So how valuable is the trip function? Every trip weapon is above 100%, except the sickle and kama*, and I personally go with the simple weapons at -20, which would place the sickle at 105%. Your guisarme is listed at both 100% and 102%, with the 102% refrence being accurate. You might also want to update your list to include that javelin note made by Sphyre, if you have the time and inclinationSo maybe trip shouldn't be worth 5%. Don't get me wrong, it should be worth something, but probably only 2% or 3%. My suggestion is 3%, though you may want to calculate things for your self. with my change the results would be; (sorry, only listing changes, not everything). 98%- sickle, kama 100%- guisarme 102%- halberd, scythe 103%- flail, heavy flail, dire flail 105%- spiked chain
ArcanaMaster 05-23-07, 06:21 PM	What would you do for for reach greater than ten feet(ie. the Whip), charge for reach multiple times or what?:confused:
Patrick Draken-Korin 09-03-07, 02:32 PM	:bump::evillaugh :rofl: :tiphat: :incog: :hides:
Fsi-Dib 09-03-07, 03:33 PM	This system works well when creating new, more powerful weapons (intentionally). In the first D&D campaign I ever played, we found a dagger with a saw-blade, it dealt 2d4 instead of 1d4. Thus it'd be 116%, a lot stronger than most weapons. Of course, this particular weapon isn't replicateable, and cannot be purchased. I'l definitely copy this chart and use it. It's superb. Also, it might be good to add certain damage types such as 3d4 (I suspect it was there ... no harm done if it's added there), 3d6 ... possibly even the rare choices such as 1d14 and 1d16 (these dice exists ... and imagine, a new weapon, and then the player asks how much damage. The DM presents him a new die, holy angel choirs, sunbeams and yadda yadda)
Fsi-Dib 09-03-07, 03:55 PM	I'll try converting Great Crossbow (from RoS) to this: Great Crossbow Exotic Weapon (-5%) Ranged Weapon: Project (-35%) 2d8 (+34%) 18-20/x2 (+15%) Piercing (+0%) Range 120ft. (+0%) Full-round action reload (+0%) -40%, +49% -> 109% Not as powerful as I thought... yet one of the most. Now let's try Dwarven Warpike (from the same book) Warpike, dwarven Exotic Weapon (-5%) Two-Handed Melee Weapon (-40%) 2d6 (+30%) 20/x3 (+10%) Trip (+5%) Reach (+5%) Set Against Charge (+2%) -45%, +52% -> 107% Still balanced?! Is this what WotC uses? Reveal yourself! One more try, Tigerskull Club from Frostburn! Tigerskull Club Exotic Weapon (-5%) One-handed melee weapon (-30%) 1d8 (+20%) 20/x4 (+15%) Trip (+5%) Disarm Bonus (+2) (+5%) Trip Bonus (+2) (+5%) Damage Type (multiple (piercing & bludgeoning)) (+5%) -35%, +55% -> 120% I always knew Tigerskull Club is an overpowered weapon ...
WebNinja 12-22-07, 04:43 PM	Now how about making one chart for spells too? That would be awesome =D
Spikes01k 12-23-07, 10:33 AM	I'll try converting Great Crossbow (from RoS) to this: Great Crossbow Exotic Weapon (-5%) Ranged Weapon: Project (-35%) 2d8 (+34%) 18-20/x2 (+15%) Piercing (+0%) Range 120ft. (+0%) Full-round action reload (+0%) -40%, +49% -> 109% Not as powerful as I thought... yet one of the most. Now let's try Dwarven Warpike (from the same book) Warpike, dwarven Exotic Weapon (-5%) Two-Handed Melee Weapon (-40%) 2d6 (+30%) 20/x3 (+10%) Trip (+5%) Reach (+5%) Set Against Charge (+2%) -45%, +52% -> 107% Still balanced?! Is this what WotC uses? Reveal yourself! One more try, Tigerskull Club from Frostburn! Tigerskull Club Exotic Weapon (-5%) One-handed melee weapon (-30%) 1d8 (+20%) 20/x4 (+15%) Trip (+5%) Disarm Bonus (+2) (+5%) Trip Bonus (+2) (+5%) Damage Type (multiple (piercing & bludgeoning)) (+5%) -35%, +55% -> 120% I always knew Tigerskull Club is an overpowered weapon ... Tigerskull Club is a bit much, however there has been a re balancing on the value of an exotic feat as of late...
Gwydeon 01-06-08, 03:43 PM	So, how does Unarmed Strike break down? And does it change when its at 2d10 (lvl 20 monk)?
AtsuiShoto 01-24-08, 12:48 PM	That Shuriken of Doom posted back at page 1 doesn't appear to be balanced by the system any more so than by common sense. Ranged: Thrown (-25%) 1d2 (0%) 18-20/x4 (45%, as 20/x3 is 15%, and this is triple the effect) Exotic (-5%) Thrown (6%) As ammo (10%) TOTAL: 131% Looks like it's pretty darn unbalanced. Also, how's this for a sarissa: 2-H Melee (-40%) 1d6 (15%) 20/x2 (5%) Reach (15') (10%) Set vs charge (2%) TOTAL: 92% That sub-par balance sounds about right for a weapon that is unwieldy outside of the phalanx formation. Or how about a spear midway between a doru and a sarissa: 1-H Melee (-30%) 1d6 (15%) 20/x3 (10%) Reach (5%) Set vs charge (2%) Never 2-H (-5%) TOTAL: 97% It's sub-par, but the uniqueness of a one-handed reach weapon helps, I think, to make this a great choice.
Spikes01k 01-25-08, 09:44 AM	Jovar Two handed weapon -40 2D6 +30 18-20/x2 +15 Exotic Weapon -5 Perfect balance, Sort of wish I got a little more for my feat but its still good at what it does.
Spikes01k 01-26-08, 02:48 PM	I don't know what your cost % for 2D8s is based off of, but from what I have seen it is probably more like 40%.
risner 05-19-08, 09:23 AM	Had trouble googling this today.
MERC_1 06-02-08, 09:19 PM	The Three-section staff turns out to be a 90% weapon! 2H-Melee -40% 1d8 20% 20x3 +10% Exotic -5% Monk weapon +5% Must be the weakest weapon in the game... From what I have seen of this weapon in use it can be used as a double-weapon, or to trip people when used as a 2-handed weapon. To add both those abilitys would maybe make it too strong... Suggested fixes?
Nathreet 06-02-08, 11:05 PM	I am pleasantly surprised at a mostly well-balanced system, however: Critmaster 9000 (mentioned before) exotic two-handed 1d2 18-20/x4 Take the improved crit feat to get 15-20/x4 Buy a: flaming burst icy burst shocking burst thundering +1 critmaster +8 equivalent weapon Adds 3d6 (10.5) energy damage normally Adds an additional 9d10+3d8 (63) damage 30% of the time (on a crit) Adds 29.4 damage on average. Compare to +24.5 for your typical energy damage weapon. But wait, there's more! On average it increases your base damage by +90%. So with a 22 strength we're talking 1d2+9 (10.5 avg) base damage, almost doubled by this weapon. You can keep your piddly un-doubled 2d6+9 (16 avg.) base damage. There are better ways to optimize it, I just threw something together quickly. Try a +5 thundering critmaster with a +4 power attack, for example. I'd suggest sticking to the standard crit options.