3.5 Why do advanced characters fumble more often? (they have more attacks/round) [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Why do advanced characters fumble more often? (they have more attacks/round) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Harmor
09-10-04, 11:04 AM A higher level character with more attacks per round will fumble more often (per round), than someone who only attacks say once per round.

Shouldn't as you level up become more proficient and fumble less?

I ask this because many times rolling a '1' is not just a miss. Many DMs rule that this is a fumble and thus bad things happen like your weapon flys away, or you fall down prone, etc...

It doesn't make sence to me.
Joe Khol
09-10-04, 11:15 AM That's why critical fumbles aren't in the core rules. If your DM is making up silly house-rules you need to take it up with them.
Zherog
09-10-04, 11:27 AM Exactly what Joe said. Blame the silly house rule (critical fumble charts) rather than the "always miss on a 1" mechanic.
Silverglass
09-10-04, 11:30 AM Absolutely. Potential Fumbles whenever you roll a 1 to hit are almost always a bad house rule (the exceptions are those that, for instance, only come into effect on the first attack in the round or other such limitations).
Finarin Panjoro
09-10-04, 11:43 AM Someone once suggested that you only allow critical fumbles on your lowest BAB attack. If you only get one attack then that's your lowest attack. This seems to solve the multiple attack problem. I still wouldn't use it though, it just slows down combat and makes the heroes look incompetent.
danielinthewolvesden
09-10-04, 06:08 PM Well, they don't- because Fumbles aren't part of the RAW.

But Finarin Panjoro's solution will fix that. A better fix is to not have Fumbles at all. :mad:
Count Arioch the 28th
09-10-04, 07:18 PM The only fumble rule I have heard that I like is a rule posted by a fellow named Mondreyes here.

Hiw rule was that when you roll a 1 on an attack, roll a second time. If you roll a 1 a second time, you break your weapon.
d_nychus
09-10-04, 07:45 PM It's the same reason that having a large dice pool in White Wolf games actually hurts you. In WW (a multiple d10 system), when you roll a 1, it is an automatic failure that cancels out another successful roll, while if you roll a 10, you keep that as a success and are allowed to roll that die again. Effectively, you are always hurt when a roll of a 1 occurs, while rolling a 10 only nets a chance to increase total number of successes. In short, rolling a 1 hurts you more than rolling a 10 helps you, and the odds of rolling a like number of both is bigger with the more dice you roll. Before I figured this out, I made a min/maxed character with a 22 dice pool whenever she made an attack with her machine guns. She had the worst success rate for a character I have ever seen in my life. She would routinely fail to hit an opponent who was standing right next to her. I still refuse to play WW to this day without a serious revamp on the rolling rules.

In D&D, the problem is quite similar, simply because there are a LOT of bad houserules for fumbles. In most houserules I have seen, a 1 means an automatic fumble, which is bad, bad, bad. That means rolling a 1 hurts you far more than rolling a 20 helps you in the game, just like in the WW system, and with increased numbers of attack rolls at high levels, this becomes far more common. If you only roll once per round to attack, as you do in low levels, you have less of a chance of rolling a 1 than you do when you roll 5-8 attack rolls per round, as you can do in high levels.

The best solution for a houserule is somewhat like Count Arioch put up there, making fumbles act like a "reverse critical confirmation." If you roll a 1, you roll again. If you "hit" with the second roll, you merely miss. If you "miss" with the second roll, a fumble occurs. This makes fumbles a little less common at high levels, as they should be.
aleph13
09-10-04, 08:56 PM My group has played with the threat of critical misses for years. I find it adds a bit of humor to the situation sometimes...

Anyway, what we do is if you roll a 1 to hit, then you make a Reflex save, DC 18 (to "catch" yourself). If you make it, it's just a miss, and you continue on. This makes it less ikely that a high level character will miss, but not impossible!

If you miss the Reflex save, then we have a great critical miss table that's not very unbalancing. Most of the results (d100) are dazed, stupefied by your own ineptness, or some such for 1d4 rounds. But there is the remote possibility that you can break your weapon, or even hit yourself or a party member! (I did just that last week, actually, and it was great for in-character roleplaying of attonement :) )

In other words, we just found a critical miss table that is fun to play with. By the way, all the bad guys are subject to it as well, which can be hilarious.

As an aside, d_nychus, you might want to try out the new WW World of Darkness rules. I think you'll find them very well thought out in comparison.
Hildebar
09-11-04, 02:59 AM I like Critical Hits and Fumble tables because they can make combats more memorable.

In my game, a natural 20 (no confirmation roll required) allows a d100 roll on the Critical Hit Table - offering a bonus positive outcome on top of the usual critical multiplier.

However, a natural 1 has to be 'confirmed' by a second roll. If that second roll misses, then roll d100 on the Fumble table. This means that although high level characters have more attacks, and hence will roll more 1s, their extra competence will mean that few of the 1s actually result in a fumble. (The players still get to enjoy that feeling of dread as the dice settle and the 1 is revealed.)

And the Critical Hit and Fumble tables are only a guide for the DM. The actual bonus or mishap should be selected based on the current combat situation so that the action continues to flow in a consistent way. The end result is that combats gain extra variety and excitement.

Hildebar.
Ellanon
09-11-04, 05:41 AM In our games, if you roll a one it is an automatic miss. You then roll again, similar to a threat roll, at the attack value that missed. If you miss, it is a critical fumble. If you would hit, you are safe, and it is simply a automatic miss.

For example, if you are a level 15 fighter, you would have a BAB of +15.

15/10/5 - If you roll a 1 on your third attack, you would roll again. This 'threat' roll would be based upon the third attack (5 + modifiers). If you miss, you critically fumble. If you hit, you only automatically miss. If you roll a second 1 on the threat, you have potentially broken your weapon or something similarly drastic. Two 20's in a row is automatic death to a creature able to be affected by crits.

We also use the crit/fumble rule that states potential magnified effects for rolling two 20's or two 1's in a row. If you roll two 20's (or two 1's) you would roll a second threat test. I rule that the results of this second threat test allow you to score a critical on creatures that would otherwise be immune to crits; or in the case of a fumble, you could potentially hurt yourself, or your allies. Three 20's in a row potentially means instant death to a creature otherwise unable to be affected by crits. Three 1's in a row could potentially automatically kill you or an ally.

Before you judge this, consider the odds of accomplishing these rolls...

Rolling a 1 on a d20 - 1 in 20 chance (5%)
Two 1's in a row (also Two 20's) - 1 in 400 chance. (0.25% chance)
Three 1's in a row (also Three 20's) - 1 in 8000 chance. (0.0125% chance)

In my game, even if you are an uber fighter, you are sacrificing accuracy for speed to get multiple attacks. Due to this, your chance of rolling a critical fumble increases with each successive attack.
DM Zoc
09-11-04, 05:55 AM I thought that the only official optional rule in the DMG was that on a natural 1 you make a Reflex saved, DC 10, or else drop your weapon.
Ellanon
09-11-04, 06:00 AM I thought that the only official optional rule in the DMG was that on a natural 1 you make a Reflex saved, DC 10, or else drop your weapon.You are correct.

Official variants: Two 20's equals an instant kill. Softer crits by lowering the threat range by one step. (20 x2 does not threat at all.) Critical Miss (Fumbles) - If you roll a 1, Reflex (DC 10) or critically fumble.
danielinthewolvesden
09-11-04, 04:15 PM By the way, all the bad guys are subject to it as well, which can be hilarious.

Not really- do any of them show up nerfed because they fumbled in a battle prior to meeting your party? :rolleyes:
aleph13
09-11-04, 10:11 PM :eek: Damn them for being prepared!

Come to think about it, have you ever met a baddie who's not at max HP? For the first round, anyway... heh heh.
Frozen Yakman
09-12-04, 02:12 AM Yes high level character have a higher chance of rolling a 1 per round than lower level characters, but they have a lower chance of rolling a 1 in the same encounter.

At higher levels it takes fewer attacks to do the same damage than it would take at lower levels. If something takes 3 hits to kill at level 20 and 10 hits at level 15 then overall the level 20 guy has a less chance for a auto-miss than the level 15.
Berms
09-12-04, 10:48 AM Yes high level character have a higher chance of rolling a 1 per round than lower level characters, but they have a lower chance of rolling a 1 in the same encounter.

At higher levels it takes fewer attacks to do the same damage than it would take at lower levels. If something takes 3 hits to kill at level 20 and 10 hits at level 15 then overall the level 20 guy has a less chance for a auto-miss than the level 15.
That's only true if you are fighting the same creature at the two different levels. I would think all DM's would throw higher CR creatures at higher level PC's. So that 20 level would still need 10 hits to kill it's new foe.
Berms
09-12-04, 10:50 AM :eek: Damn them for being prepared!

Come to think about it, have you ever met a baddie who's not at max HP? For the first round, anyway... heh heh.
Unless they fight amoungst themselves, who would have hurt them. Most are not adventures. Most are living, working, waiting for you to come along, of course they will be maxed.
memberZ
09-12-04, 11:37 AM If the BBEG doesn't have max HP it's CR would go down and so will the PC's XP.

I have always used the double fumble rule and I have a triple threat rule.
Back to back ones is a fumble (dropped weapon).I don't like the save vs. fumble rule as it favors rogues to much.
triple crit : roll 2 20's then confirm a hit.(Only 20's though)

I have had BBEG's fumble and it's hilarious. BBEG tosses sword toward the fighter and says " Um well I guess peace man, parlay, I surrender. Hey look a dragon!" and tries to run away.
Pyrosis Silvercaster
09-12-04, 12:38 PM Critical Successes and Fumbles are (albeit non-gospel) fun and mosttimes memorable occurances. I know any of us who have been playing a long time remember when the first blade-swipe took down the BBEG.

Or in my case a few months ago playing my rogue I fumbled with my Flaming Mighty Composite shortbow (+2), my only ranged weapon (and also my baby). Confirmed fumble, DM had me roll on his d100 fumble chart: Break Weapon. I was devastated. The next game seesion we got into it again so I pulled my up-close-and-personal weapon (and only magical weapon I had left), a dagger+3. Fumble...break weapon. It was enough to make me want to cry.

So sure, they are the stories of legend and the follies of old, but they do add an extra touch into the game. Besides, even the most experienced drivers have accidents.
Oberoni
09-12-04, 12:43 PM I'll just go on-record as saying that I despise the idea of critical fumbles.
masterofmayhem
09-12-04, 01:14 PM IMC, whenever someone rolls a one, they roll again. If that second roll is enough to hit, they only miss. If they miss with the second roll, they provoke an AoO (like they missed so badly they let their guard down). If they roll a second one, they follow it up with a third roll. If this hits, they suffer an AoO, but if it misses, something bad happens (which depends on the terrain).

I haven't actually implemented this rule yet (we haven't played in a while). Does it sound too harsh?
simen_88
09-12-04, 01:18 PM My DM used to have this rule: If you roll 1, roll again. If you roll below 10, you roll damage against yourself. If you roll below 5, hurt yourself for max damage. No saves. We never survived our second encounter.
Callista
09-12-04, 01:44 PM House rule: Confirmed critical misses.

Subtract your level and reflex save from 25 and roll again. If you get this number or higher, it's just a miss. Otherwise, it's a critical miss.

This way, higher-level characters, and characters with good reflex saves, tend not to have a lot of critical misses; very high-level characters don't have them at all (for them--say a 15th-level character with a reflex save of 10--there are no critical misses, just misses).

Or you can add the variation that (even for high-level characters with ref save plus level >= 25), a 1 followed by another 1 is always a critical miss.
Berms
09-12-04, 04:01 PM House rule: Confirmed critical misses.

Subtract your level and reflex save from 25 and roll again. If you get this number or higher, it's just a miss. Otherwise, it's a critical miss.
Only problem I see with that varrient is that low levels will almost always critically miss, which for a low level could be life or death...
Ryoohki
09-13-04, 03:59 PM In a campaign I'm in, we have this rule when attacking:

If a 1 is rolled, you need to make a DC 10 DEX check. If you fail the DEX check, you have the choice of losing your weapon or being "open" to attacks. That is, you're essentially prone but you automatically become unprone next time it's your action again.

If you roll a 1 on your DEX check, something worse can happen as desired by the DM, such as slipping and throwing your weapon a few feet or accidentally striking someone unintended. On ranged attacks, you may have a chance to hit something random. The DM rolls some scatter dice to figure out the direction you missed in to see what you have a chance of hitting.

This rule is not that bad since you have a chance to not fail. And higher level characters will sometimes have better DEX checks than others, but most characters will still tend to be likely to fail some of the time. Also, if you fail, you can choose to not be easier to be hit by dropping your weapon. Or if you don't want to lose your weapon, you will just be more likely to be hit.

Oh yeah, a 1 also means you stop your attacks unless you beat a DC 20 on your DEX check. In that case, you keep your attacks going.

Anyway, it happens for both PCs, NPCs, and monsters. So it's fairly balanced. And the penalties aren't that severe.

Kyle
FitzNighteyes
09-13-04, 08:08 PM Any critical hit system that triggers on a 1 on any attack in a round is flawed. A higher level character can expect a fight to last about the same amount of rounds (since he is fighting more powerful enemies), but has more chances to fumble every round when using a full attack.
Cathon
09-13-04, 08:51 PM An interesting idea for a variation on the standard fumble (roll a 1 and then confirm with a miss against the opponents AC).

A character can sacrifice one of their attacks for no chance of fumbling on any other attack (normally it will be their least effective attack, of course). If they take enough care to avoid all chance of fumbling, they get one fewer attack.

Now the group I play with has a fumble table which is supposed to make it harder for a fumble to mess up the character as he goes up in level. Most of the entries have something like a DC 10 reflex save to avoid them. We were using it in an epic game without problems (didn't confirm many of the ones and when we did it was usually nothing that harmful).
Ellanon
09-14-04, 12:54 AM Any critical hit system that triggers on a 1 on any attack in a round is flawed. A higher level character can expect a fight to last about the same amount of rounds (since he is fighting more powerful enemies), but has more chances to fumble every round when using a full attack.A high level character is still taking risks if they use all of their attacks. This risk is calculated in the cumulative -5 penalty to each attack. You want to take more attacks in one round, you take the risk of a potential mishap. You want to play it safe, don't take a full attack action.
Woas
09-14-04, 09:33 AM So what we're saying here is that a fighter, as they get stronger has more of a chance to miss on a 1 do to multiple attacks. Right?

So, rolling a 20 doesn't apply or what? True, the more attacks you have, the more chances of rolling a one. But you also have more chances of rolling a 20, 19, 18 or 17. Do they not?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 09-10-04, 11:04 AM	A higher level character with more attacks per round will fumble more often (per round), than someone who only attacks say once per round. Shouldn't as you level up become more proficient and fumble less? I ask this because many times rolling a '1' is not just a miss. Many DMs rule that this is a fumble and thus bad things happen like your weapon flys away, or you fall down prone, etc... It doesn't make sence to me.
Joe Khol 09-10-04, 11:15 AM	That's why critical fumbles aren't in the core rules. If your DM is making up silly house-rules you need to take it up with them.
Zherog 09-10-04, 11:27 AM	Exactly what Joe said. Blame the silly house rule (critical fumble charts) rather than the "always miss on a 1" mechanic.
Silverglass 09-10-04, 11:30 AM	Absolutely. Potential Fumbles whenever you roll a 1 to hit are almost always a bad house rule (the exceptions are those that, for instance, only come into effect on the first attack in the round or other such limitations).
Finarin Panjoro 09-10-04, 11:43 AM	Someone once suggested that you only allow critical fumbles on your lowest BAB attack. If you only get one attack then that's your lowest attack. This seems to solve the multiple attack problem. I still wouldn't use it though, it just slows down combat and makes the heroes look incompetent.
danielinthewolvesden 09-10-04, 06:08 PM	Well, they don't- because Fumbles aren't part of the RAW. But Finarin Panjoro's solution will fix that. A better fix is to not have Fumbles at all. :mad:
Count Arioch the 28th 09-10-04, 07:18 PM	The only fumble rule I have heard that I like is a rule posted by a fellow named Mondreyes here. Hiw rule was that when you roll a 1 on an attack, roll a second time. If you roll a 1 a second time, you break your weapon.
d_nychus 09-10-04, 07:45 PM	It's the same reason that having a large dice pool in White Wolf games actually hurts you. In WW (a multiple d10 system), when you roll a 1, it is an automatic failure that cancels out another successful roll, while if you roll a 10, you keep that as a success and are allowed to roll that die again. Effectively, you are always hurt when a roll of a 1 occurs, while rolling a 10 only nets a chance to increase total number of successes. In short, rolling a 1 hurts you more than rolling a 10 helps you, and the odds of rolling a like number of both is bigger with the more dice you roll. Before I figured this out, I made a min/maxed character with a 22 dice pool whenever she made an attack with her machine guns. She had the worst success rate for a character I have ever seen in my life. She would routinely fail to hit an opponent who was standing right next to her. I still refuse to play WW to this day without a serious revamp on the rolling rules. In D&D, the problem is quite similar, simply because there are a LOT of bad houserules for fumbles. In most houserules I have seen, a 1 means an automatic fumble, which is bad, bad, bad. That means rolling a 1 hurts you far more than rolling a 20 helps you in the game, just like in the WW system, and with increased numbers of attack rolls at high levels, this becomes far more common. If you only roll once per round to attack, as you do in low levels, you have less of a chance of rolling a 1 than you do when you roll 5-8 attack rolls per round, as you can do in high levels. The best solution for a houserule is somewhat like Count Arioch put up there, making fumbles act like a "reverse critical confirmation." If you roll a 1, you roll again. If you "hit" with the second roll, you merely miss. If you "miss" with the second roll, a fumble occurs. This makes fumbles a little less common at high levels, as they should be.
aleph13 09-10-04, 08:56 PM	My group has played with the threat of critical misses for years. I find it adds a bit of humor to the situation sometimes... Anyway, what we do is if you roll a 1 to hit, then you make a Reflex save, DC 18 (to "catch" yourself). If you make it, it's just a miss, and you continue on. This makes it less ikely that a high level character will miss, but not impossible! If you miss the Reflex save, then we have a great critical miss table that's not very unbalancing. Most of the results (d100) are dazed, stupefied by your own ineptness, or some such for 1d4 rounds. But there is the remote possibility that you can break your weapon, or even hit yourself or a party member! (I did just that last week, actually, and it was great for in-character roleplaying of attonement :) ) In other words, we just found a critical miss table that is fun to play with. By the way, all the bad guys are subject to it as well, which can be hilarious. As an aside, d_nychus, you might want to try out the new WW World of Darkness rules. I think you'll find them very well thought out in comparison.
Hildebar 09-11-04, 02:59 AM	I like Critical Hits and Fumble tables because they can make combats more memorable. In my game, a natural 20 (no confirmation roll required) allows a d100 roll on the Critical Hit Table - offering a bonus positive outcome on top of the usual critical multiplier. However, a natural 1 has to be 'confirmed' by a second roll. If that second roll misses, then roll d100 on the Fumble table. This means that although high level characters have more attacks, and hence will roll more 1s, their extra competence will mean that few of the 1s actually result in a fumble. (The players still get to enjoy that feeling of dread as the dice settle and the 1 is revealed.) And the Critical Hit and Fumble tables are only a guide for the DM. The actual bonus or mishap should be selected based on the current combat situation so that the action continues to flow in a consistent way. The end result is that combats gain extra variety and excitement. Hildebar.
Ellanon 09-11-04, 05:41 AM	In our games, if you roll a one it is an automatic miss. You then roll again, similar to a threat roll, at the attack value that missed. If you miss, it is a critical fumble. If you would hit, you are safe, and it is simply a automatic miss. For example, if you are a level 15 fighter, you would have a BAB of +15. 15/10/5 - If you roll a 1 on your third attack, you would roll again. This 'threat' roll would be based upon the third attack (5 + modifiers). If you miss, you critically fumble. If you hit, you only automatically miss. If you roll a second 1 on the threat, you have potentially broken your weapon or something similarly drastic. Two 20's in a row is automatic death to a creature able to be affected by crits. We also use the crit/fumble rule that states potential magnified effects for rolling two 20's or two 1's in a row. If you roll two 20's (or two 1's) you would roll a second threat test. I rule that the results of this second threat test allow you to score a critical on creatures that would otherwise be immune to crits; or in the case of a fumble, you could potentially hurt yourself, or your allies. Three 20's in a row potentially means instant death to a creature otherwise unable to be affected by crits. Three 1's in a row could potentially automatically kill you or an ally. Before you judge this, consider the odds of accomplishing these rolls... Rolling a 1 on a d20 - 1 in 20 chance (5%) Two 1's in a row (also Two 20's) - 1 in 400 chance. (0.25% chance) Three 1's in a row (also Three 20's) - 1 in 8000 chance. (0.0125% chance) In my game, even if you are an uber fighter, you are sacrificing accuracy for speed to get multiple attacks. Due to this, your chance of rolling a critical fumble increases with each successive attack.
DM Zoc 09-11-04, 05:55 AM	I thought that the only official optional rule in the DMG was that on a natural 1 you make a Reflex saved, DC 10, or else drop your weapon.
Ellanon 09-11-04, 06:00 AM	I thought that the only official optional rule in the DMG was that on a natural 1 you make a Reflex saved, DC 10, or else drop your weapon.You are correct. Official variants: Two 20's equals an instant kill. Softer crits by lowering the threat range by one step. (20 x2 does not threat at all.) Critical Miss (Fumbles) - If you roll a 1, Reflex (DC 10) or critically fumble.
danielinthewolvesden 09-11-04, 04:15 PM	By the way, all the bad guys are subject to it as well, which can be hilarious. Not really- do any of them show up nerfed because they fumbled in a battle prior to meeting your party? :rolleyes:
aleph13 09-11-04, 10:11 PM	:eek: Damn them for being prepared! Come to think about it, have you ever met a baddie who's not at max HP? For the first round, anyway... heh heh.
Frozen Yakman 09-12-04, 02:12 AM	Yes high level character have a higher chance of rolling a 1 per round than lower level characters, but they have a lower chance of rolling a 1 in the same encounter. At higher levels it takes fewer attacks to do the same damage than it would take at lower levels. If something takes 3 hits to kill at level 20 and 10 hits at level 15 then overall the level 20 guy has a less chance for a auto-miss than the level 15.
Berms 09-12-04, 10:48 AM	Yes high level character have a higher chance of rolling a 1 per round than lower level characters, but they have a lower chance of rolling a 1 in the same encounter. At higher levels it takes fewer attacks to do the same damage than it would take at lower levels. If something takes 3 hits to kill at level 20 and 10 hits at level 15 then overall the level 20 guy has a less chance for a auto-miss than the level 15. That's only true if you are fighting the same creature at the two different levels. I would think all DM's would throw higher CR creatures at higher level PC's. So that 20 level would still need 10 hits to kill it's new foe.
Berms 09-12-04, 10:50 AM	:eek: Damn them for being prepared! Come to think about it, have you ever met a baddie who's not at max HP? For the first round, anyway... heh heh. Unless they fight amoungst themselves, who would have hurt them. Most are not adventures. Most are living, working, waiting for you to come along, of course they will be maxed.
memberZ 09-12-04, 11:37 AM	If the BBEG doesn't have max HP it's CR would go down and so will the PC's XP. I have always used the double fumble rule and I have a triple threat rule. Back to back ones is a fumble (dropped weapon).I don't like the save vs. fumble rule as it favors rogues to much. triple crit : roll 2 20's then confirm a hit.(Only 20's though) I have had BBEG's fumble and it's hilarious. BBEG tosses sword toward the fighter and says " Um well I guess peace man, parlay, I surrender. Hey look a dragon!" and tries to run away.
Pyrosis Silvercaster 09-12-04, 12:38 PM	Critical Successes and Fumbles are (albeit non-gospel) fun and mosttimes memorable occurances. I know any of us who have been playing a long time remember when the first blade-swipe took down the BBEG. Or in my case a few months ago playing my rogue I fumbled with my Flaming Mighty Composite shortbow (+2), my only ranged weapon (and also my baby). Confirmed fumble, DM had me roll on his d100 fumble chart: Break Weapon. I was devastated. The next game seesion we got into it again so I pulled my up-close-and-personal weapon (and only magical weapon I had left), a dagger+3. Fumble...break weapon. It was enough to make me want to cry. So sure, they are the stories of legend and the follies of old, but they do add an extra touch into the game. Besides, even the most experienced drivers have accidents.
Oberoni 09-12-04, 12:43 PM	I'll just go on-record as saying that I despise the idea of critical fumbles.
masterofmayhem 09-12-04, 01:14 PM	IMC, whenever someone rolls a one, they roll again. If that second roll is enough to hit, they only miss. If they miss with the second roll, they provoke an AoO (like they missed so badly they let their guard down). If they roll a second one, they follow it up with a third roll. If this hits, they suffer an AoO, but if it misses, something bad happens (which depends on the terrain). I haven't actually implemented this rule yet (we haven't played in a while). Does it sound too harsh?
simen_88 09-12-04, 01:18 PM	My DM used to have this rule: If you roll 1, roll again. If you roll below 10, you roll damage against yourself. If you roll below 5, hurt yourself for max damage. No saves. We never survived our second encounter.
Callista 09-12-04, 01:44 PM	House rule: Confirmed critical misses. Subtract your level and reflex save from 25 and roll again. If you get this number or higher, it's just a miss. Otherwise, it's a critical miss. This way, higher-level characters, and characters with good reflex saves, tend not to have a lot of critical misses; very high-level characters don't have them at all (for them--say a 15th-level character with a reflex save of 10--there are no critical misses, just misses). Or you can add the variation that (even for high-level characters with ref save plus level >= 25), a 1 followed by another 1 is always a critical miss.
Berms 09-12-04, 04:01 PM	House rule: Confirmed critical misses. Subtract your level and reflex save from 25 and roll again. If you get this number or higher, it's just a miss. Otherwise, it's a critical miss. Only problem I see with that varrient is that low levels will almost always critically miss, which for a low level could be life or death...
Ryoohki 09-13-04, 03:59 PM	In a campaign I'm in, we have this rule when attacking: If a 1 is rolled, you need to make a DC 10 DEX check. If you fail the DEX check, you have the choice of losing your weapon or being "open" to attacks. That is, you're essentially prone but you automatically become unprone next time it's your action again. If you roll a 1 on your DEX check, something worse can happen as desired by the DM, such as slipping and throwing your weapon a few feet or accidentally striking someone unintended. On ranged attacks, you may have a chance to hit something random. The DM rolls some scatter dice to figure out the direction you missed in to see what you have a chance of hitting. This rule is not that bad since you have a chance to not fail. And higher level characters will sometimes have better DEX checks than others, but most characters will still tend to be likely to fail some of the time. Also, if you fail, you can choose to not be easier to be hit by dropping your weapon. Or if you don't want to lose your weapon, you will just be more likely to be hit. Oh yeah, a 1 also means you stop your attacks unless you beat a DC 20 on your DEX check. In that case, you keep your attacks going. Anyway, it happens for both PCs, NPCs, and monsters. So it's fairly balanced. And the penalties aren't that severe. Kyle
FitzNighteyes 09-13-04, 08:08 PM	Any critical hit system that triggers on a 1 on any attack in a round is flawed. A higher level character can expect a fight to last about the same amount of rounds (since he is fighting more powerful enemies), but has more chances to fumble every round when using a full attack.
Cathon 09-13-04, 08:51 PM	An interesting idea for a variation on the standard fumble (roll a 1 and then confirm with a miss against the opponents AC). A character can sacrifice one of their attacks for no chance of fumbling on any other attack (normally it will be their least effective attack, of course). If they take enough care to avoid all chance of fumbling, they get one fewer attack. Now the group I play with has a fumble table which is supposed to make it harder for a fumble to mess up the character as he goes up in level. Most of the entries have something like a DC 10 reflex save to avoid them. We were using it in an epic game without problems (didn't confirm many of the ones and when we did it was usually nothing that harmful).
Ellanon 09-14-04, 12:54 AM	Any critical hit system that triggers on a 1 on any attack in a round is flawed. A higher level character can expect a fight to last about the same amount of rounds (since he is fighting more powerful enemies), but has more chances to fumble every round when using a full attack.A high level character is still taking risks if they use all of their attacks. This risk is calculated in the cumulative -5 penalty to each attack. You want to take more attacks in one round, you take the risk of a potential mishap. You want to play it safe, don't take a full attack action.
Woas 09-14-04, 09:33 AM	So what we're saying here is that a fighter, as they get stronger has more of a chance to miss on a 1 do to multiple attacks. Right? So, rolling a 20 doesn't apply or what? True, the more attacks you have, the more chances of rolling a one. But you also have more chances of rolling a 20, 19, 18 or 17. Do they not?