3.5ed shafted Shurikens [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5ed shafted Shurikens [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thorgrimm
08-04-05, 03:38 PM These are a couple of opinions and questions i have about this weapon we call the shuriken.

Questions
1) in 3.5 ed: does a magical shuriken cost the same as a normal weapon or ammunition, I ask
because in the 3.5ed players handbook it says that shurikens are treated as ammunition when
determining cost of a masterwork version of them as well other special versions (or 6pg a
piece), but in the DMG it is considered an uncommon weapon with a cost of +301gps to the
cost even though you get 50 arrows for the cost of one normal magical weapon.

2) in 3.5 ed: if the above means that the cost of one shuriken is the same as the cost of
a normal weapon (not as ammunition), then is the shuriken still destroyed on a successful
hit or have the 50% chance of destruction on a miss? and if so how the heck could someone
possibly use magical shurikens (what would be the point of making one attack with a +5
shuriken costing the same as a +5 sword but the shuriken being destroyed on impact) that
would be awfully expensive for one attack.

3) in 3.5ed: if the above magical shuriken is destroyed on a successful hit (wether it is
normal weapon cost or ammunition) would making it of a harder substance such as adamantine
negate this destruction. I ask since it states that adamantine is an ultrahard metal with
a hardness of 20 which seems like it would be able to withstand the force of hitting a
target.

Opinions
Ok, why did the shuriken get so shafted in the update to version 3.5 from version 3.0?
Most people would think that the shuriken got increased in effectiveness not the other
way around, but i beg to differ. Let me explain.

First, in the 3.0ed PHB the following are the shurikens stats and weapon description.

Weapon Cost Dmg Crit Range weight Type
Tiny Shuriken 1gp 1 x2 10ft 1/10lb Piercing
You can throw upto 3 shurikens per attack (all at the same target). Do not apply
Strength modifier to damage with a shuriken. They are too small to carry the extra
force that a strong character can usually impart to a thrown weapon.

Ok, benifits and drawbacks of the 3.0ed version of the shuriken as i see them are
1) good: 3 attacks per normal attack (but all must be at the same target)
2) good: is not destoyed on a hit or miss
3) bad : does not get strength modifier to damage
4) bad : only does 1 damage regardless of size
5) bad : cost is 1gp each
6) bad : is not considered a monk special weapon
7) bad : normal cost for a masterwork version or special version of them

Now this may sound pretty bad, a weapon that does 1 damage that does not get a strength
modifier to damage, and it cost the same as a normal weapon when making masterwork
versions.

Now the 3.5ed version of the shuriken

Weapon Cost (S)dmg (m)dmg Crit Range Weight Type
Shuriken 1gp/5 1 1d2 x2 10ft .5lb/5 Piercing
A Shuriken is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk (see Chapter3:
Classes) wielding shuriken special options. A shuriken can't be used as a melee weapon.
Although they are thrown weapons, shurikens are treated as ammunition for the purposes
of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see
Masterwork Weapons, below), and what happens to them after they are thrown.

Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows),
or slings bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a
free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking,
ammunition that hits a target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition
that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Ok, the benifits and drawbacks of the 3.5ed version of the shuriken as i see them are
1) good: a 50% chance that a shuriken wielded by a medium character deals an extra point
of damage more than the 3.0ed shurkin
2) good: add strength modifier to damage
3) good: cost is 1gp for 5 shurikens
4) good: is considered a monk special weapon
5) good: treated as ammunition for costs of masterwork and special versions
6) bad : is destroyed on a successful hit and has a 50% chance of being lost or
destroyed on a miss

Now this may sound pretty good, gets strength modifier to damage and is cheaper than
the 3.0ed version and a monk can use flurry of blows with it.

After stating the benifits and drawbacks of each version here is my reasoning behind
thinking that the shuriken got shafted in the update.

The 3.0ed shuriken is so much better than the 3.5ed because it is not destroyed on a
successful hit. Yes, they are only 1gp for 5 of them, and in a low level game this isnt
that bad. But, once you get into higher level games where magic weapons play a big part,
the cost of using a shuriken becomes increasingly more expensive. Since they are
ammunition they are somewhat cheap (unless you look in the DMG where it seems that they
are regular price) but unlike other ammunition like arrows, bolts, and sling bullets,
you cannot purchase an ordinary unmagical shuriken and throw it and have it become
magical by paying the price of a magical bow, crossbow, or sling. There is no shuriken
throwing weapon so you must pay full price for each shuriken you throw and if you hit
with that said shuriken it is destroyed (a waste of gp). Yes, if they do damage to the
target it isnt a complete waste, but the reason this is broken is because a fighter
wielding a bow can buy a magical bow costing 50,000gps and 50 non-magical arrows and
each arrow fired from that magical bow is considered magical. A fighter wielding shurikens
must buy each shuriken magical and even at an ammunition cost which could be 1 fifth
(if you see that a shuriken costs 5/1gp were an arrow costs 20/1) the cost of a normal
magical weapon. Yes this doesnt seem to be much different from the magical bow and arrows
which in the end will cost the same, but after returning to town depleted of arrows and
depleted of shurikens the fighter with the bow must spend 1gp for another 20 arrows where
the fighter with shurikens must pay full price for another set of magical shurikens.

Yes they added some things to try and offset this cost, but being able to use a monks
flurry of blows with them and adding your strength modifier to a weapon that only has a
50% chance of dealing 2 base damage isnt worth the cost of having to buy magical shurikens
in the longrun. Especially since the more attacks a round you get at higher levels will
deplete the equivalent of one magical sword in not less than 2-3 rounds. Especially by
a monk. I would rather have a shuriken that costs full price and get 3 attacks per attack
a round, as opposed to getting strength bonus to the damage and having to rebuy my weapons
everytime i run out because i hit to often.

Hrmmmm, pay 24,000gps for (3) +1 returning shurikens or pay 4,800gps (at 1/5 cost) or
even 480gps (at 1/50 cost) over and over everytime i hit a creature or roll a 50% or
less even when i miss, not to mention you cant put returning on a shuriken in 3.5ed
since when it hits it is destroyed. It would take 50 hits with the 3.5ed shuriken before
you are paying extra gps for using a weapon that deals very little damage compared to a
bow or sword. I hate to say it but most characters hit about 50-75% of the time,
sometimes more often than that so with 3 attacks a round it would take (at 50% hits)
about 32 rounds before you are getting screwed.

Now, if i were to make the Shuriken i would modifier as such

Weapon Cost (S)dmg (m)dmg Crit Range Weight Type
Shuriken (5) 1gp 1 1d2 x2 10ft 1/2lb piercing

: monk special weapon
: strength bonus to damage like any other thrown weapon
: treated as ammunition for costs and destruction purposes except for magical versions
at which time they are treated as normal thrown weapons and are not destroyed on impact
or on a miss (thought a 25% chance to loose them, which would make returning a must for
any magical shuriken)

i think that allowing it to be a monk weapon and being able to throw 3 for each attack
is a little pushing it so i think, maybe throw 2 per base attack at the same target,
meaning you can never throw an extra shuriken for an extra attack gained from rapid
shot, flurry of blows, haste, extra attacks from two-weapon fighting or any other
ability that would allow more attacks, so at most +4 shurikens at +15 bab. This would
offset the low damage output compared to most weapons.

What do you think?
mvincent
08-04-05, 04:09 PM in the DMG it is considered an uncommon weapon with a cost of +301gps to the costYes. WotC made a mistake. They forgot to update that table when they updated the shuriken in 3.5. It happens.
jaelis
08-04-05, 05:26 PM No shurikens aren't as good as a bow. Sorry, that's the breaks.

But I think they're better than any other throwing weapon, exactly because they're treated as ammo. Yes, you use them up, but if at least you don't run out of them constantly. Think of the poor javelin guy, who invests a ton of gold in 5 magic javelins. At three shots per round, he can't even get off two rounds of full attacks. For the same price, the shuriken dude can get 250 magic shurikens. And don't forget, with a monk with rapid shot and twf, you can throw a lot of shurikens per turn!

I've seen more people complain about javelins not being treated as ammo than that shurikens are.
Rulebook
08-07-05, 01:28 AM you can Flurry/TWF throwing with Shurikens... that makes em pretty dog gone fun.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorgrimm 08-04-05, 03:38 PM	These are a couple of opinions and questions i have about this weapon we call the shuriken. Questions 1) in 3.5 ed: does a magical shuriken cost the same as a normal weapon or ammunition, I ask because in the 3.5ed players handbook it says that shurikens are treated as ammunition when determining cost of a masterwork version of them as well other special versions (or 6pg a piece), but in the DMG it is considered an uncommon weapon with a cost of +301gps to the cost even though you get 50 arrows for the cost of one normal magical weapon. 2) in 3.5 ed: if the above means that the cost of one shuriken is the same as the cost of a normal weapon (not as ammunition), then is the shuriken still destroyed on a successful hit or have the 50% chance of destruction on a miss? and if so how the heck could someone possibly use magical shurikens (what would be the point of making one attack with a +5 shuriken costing the same as a +5 sword but the shuriken being destroyed on impact) that would be awfully expensive for one attack. 3) in 3.5ed: if the above magical shuriken is destroyed on a successful hit (wether it is normal weapon cost or ammunition) would making it of a harder substance such as adamantine negate this destruction. I ask since it states that adamantine is an ultrahard metal with a hardness of 20 which seems like it would be able to withstand the force of hitting a target. Opinions Ok, why did the shuriken get so shafted in the update to version 3.5 from version 3.0? Most people would think that the shuriken got increased in effectiveness not the other way around, but i beg to differ. Let me explain. First, in the 3.0ed PHB the following are the shurikens stats and weapon description. Weapon Cost Dmg Crit Range weight Type Tiny Shuriken 1gp 1 x2 10ft 1/10lb Piercing You can throw upto 3 shurikens per attack (all at the same target). Do not apply Strength modifier to damage with a shuriken. They are too small to carry the extra force that a strong character can usually impart to a thrown weapon. Ok, benifits and drawbacks of the 3.0ed version of the shuriken as i see them are 1) good: 3 attacks per normal attack (but all must be at the same target) 2) good: is not destoyed on a hit or miss 3) bad : does not get strength modifier to damage 4) bad : only does 1 damage regardless of size 5) bad : cost is 1gp each 6) bad : is not considered a monk special weapon 7) bad : normal cost for a masterwork version or special version of them Now this may sound pretty bad, a weapon that does 1 damage that does not get a strength modifier to damage, and it cost the same as a normal weapon when making masterwork versions. Now the 3.5ed version of the shuriken Weapon Cost (S)dmg (m)dmg Crit Range Weight Type Shuriken 1gp/5 1 1d2 x2 10ft .5lb/5 Piercing A Shuriken is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk (see Chapter3: Classes) wielding shuriken special options. A shuriken can't be used as a melee weapon. Although they are thrown weapons, shurikens are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons, below), and what happens to them after they are thrown. Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or slings bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits a target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. Ok, the benifits and drawbacks of the 3.5ed version of the shuriken as i see them are 1) good: a 50% chance that a shuriken wielded by a medium character deals an extra point of damage more than the 3.0ed shurkin 2) good: add strength modifier to damage 3) good: cost is 1gp for 5 shurikens 4) good: is considered a monk special weapon 5) good: treated as ammunition for costs of masterwork and special versions 6) bad : is destroyed on a successful hit and has a 50% chance of being lost or destroyed on a miss Now this may sound pretty good, gets strength modifier to damage and is cheaper than the 3.0ed version and a monk can use flurry of blows with it. After stating the benifits and drawbacks of each version here is my reasoning behind thinking that the shuriken got shafted in the update. The 3.0ed shuriken is so much better than the 3.5ed because it is not destroyed on a successful hit. Yes, they are only 1gp for 5 of them, and in a low level game this isnt that bad. But, once you get into higher level games where magic weapons play a big part, the cost of using a shuriken becomes increasingly more expensive. Since they are ammunition they are somewhat cheap (unless you look in the DMG where it seems that they are regular price) but unlike other ammunition like arrows, bolts, and sling bullets, you cannot purchase an ordinary unmagical shuriken and throw it and have it become magical by paying the price of a magical bow, crossbow, or sling. There is no shuriken throwing weapon so you must pay full price for each shuriken you throw and if you hit with that said shuriken it is destroyed (a waste of gp). Yes, if they do damage to the target it isnt a complete waste, but the reason this is broken is because a fighter wielding a bow can buy a magical bow costing 50,000gps and 50 non-magical arrows and each arrow fired from that magical bow is considered magical. A fighter wielding shurikens must buy each shuriken magical and even at an ammunition cost which could be 1 fifth (if you see that a shuriken costs 5/1gp were an arrow costs 20/1) the cost of a normal magical weapon. Yes this doesnt seem to be much different from the magical bow and arrows which in the end will cost the same, but after returning to town depleted of arrows and depleted of shurikens the fighter with the bow must spend 1gp for another 20 arrows where the fighter with shurikens must pay full price for another set of magical shurikens. Yes they added some things to try and offset this cost, but being able to use a monks flurry of blows with them and adding your strength modifier to a weapon that only has a 50% chance of dealing 2 base damage isnt worth the cost of having to buy magical shurikens in the longrun. Especially since the more attacks a round you get at higher levels will deplete the equivalent of one magical sword in not less than 2-3 rounds. Especially by a monk. I would rather have a shuriken that costs full price and get 3 attacks per attack a round, as opposed to getting strength bonus to the damage and having to rebuy my weapons everytime i run out because i hit to often. Hrmmmm, pay 24,000gps for (3) +1 returning shurikens or pay 4,800gps (at 1/5 cost) or even 480gps (at 1/50 cost) over and over everytime i hit a creature or roll a 50% or less even when i miss, not to mention you cant put returning on a shuriken in 3.5ed since when it hits it is destroyed. It would take 50 hits with the 3.5ed shuriken before you are paying extra gps for using a weapon that deals very little damage compared to a bow or sword. I hate to say it but most characters hit about 50-75% of the time, sometimes more often than that so with 3 attacks a round it would take (at 50% hits) about 32 rounds before you are getting screwed. Now, if i were to make the Shuriken i would modifier as such Weapon Cost (S)dmg (m)dmg Crit Range Weight Type Shuriken (5) 1gp 1 1d2 x2 10ft 1/2lb piercing : monk special weapon : strength bonus to damage like any other thrown weapon : treated as ammunition for costs and destruction purposes except for magical versions at which time they are treated as normal thrown weapons and are not destroyed on impact or on a miss (thought a 25% chance to loose them, which would make returning a must for any magical shuriken) i think that allowing it to be a monk weapon and being able to throw 3 for each attack is a little pushing it so i think, maybe throw 2 per base attack at the same target, meaning you can never throw an extra shuriken for an extra attack gained from rapid shot, flurry of blows, haste, extra attacks from two-weapon fighting or any other ability that would allow more attacks, so at most +4 shurikens at +15 bab. This would offset the low damage output compared to most weapons. What do you think?
mvincent 08-04-05, 04:09 PM	in the DMG it is considered an uncommon weapon with a cost of +301gps to the costYes. WotC made a mistake. They forgot to update that table when they updated the shuriken in 3.5. It happens.
jaelis 08-04-05, 05:26 PM	No shurikens aren't as good as a bow. Sorry, that's the breaks. But I think they're better than any other throwing weapon, exactly because they're treated as ammo. Yes, you use them up, but if at least you don't run out of them constantly. Think of the poor javelin guy, who invests a ton of gold in 5 magic javelins. At three shots per round, he can't even get off two rounds of full attacks. For the same price, the shuriken dude can get 250 magic shurikens. And don't forget, with a monk with rapid shot and twf, you can throw a lot of shurikens per turn! I've seen more people complain about javelins not being treated as ammo than that shurikens are.
Rulebook 08-07-05, 01:28 AM	you can Flurry/TWF throwing with Shurikens... that makes em pretty dog gone fun.