3rd Edition question: Uncanny Dodge & dodge bonuses [Archive] - Wizards Community

3rd Edition question: Uncanny Dodge & dodge bonuses [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Scrotok
01-05-08, 07:06 AM Hi all,

I'm trying to get "official" help with a rules question related to D&D 3rd Edition (3E). Hopefully I've posted in the correct forum; if not, please let me know!

The question is this:

If you are flat-footed, but you have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, do you lose your dodge bonuses?

Stated another way, does the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability allow the PC to avoid losing their dodge bonuses due to being flat-footed?

Here's the reason I'm asking:
http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/myviewtopic.html?topic=610113&forum=42&sp=0#5567572

Please let me know as soon as possible -- we're trying to get an "official" ruling on this before BioWare releases the final patch for Neverwinter Nights!

JP
kingrthr3
01-05-08, 04:37 PM Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have.
Since Uncanny Dodge prevents you from losing your Dexterity bonus when flat-footed, you also keep your dodge bonuses, assuming you have them at the time. Many dodge bonuses, however, don't start until you activate them on your turn (such as the Dodge feat, fighting defensively, Combat Expertise, etc.)

During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent on any action. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.

While uncanny dodge prevents you from losing your Dex bonus to AC while flat-footed, and thus doesn't stop you from using the Dodge feat, you don't get the benefit of the Dodge feat until you designate a target during your action. Nothing in the Uncanny Dodge ability indicates that you can set your Dodge target before your action comes up.

Edit to add: I didn't check the Neverwinter Nights link above because I was too lazy to create an account on that board.
Scrotok
01-05-08, 05:14 PM Awesome, thanks for the input! However, I'm looking for an official ruling from WotC on this issue, because we've heard both sides of the argument (yours being one of them) already on the NWN forum.

Take care,
JP
NoldorForce
01-05-08, 05:16 PM Hi all,

I'm trying to get "official" help with a rules question related to D&D 3rd Edition (3E). Hopefully I've posted in the correct forum; if not, please let me know!For future reference, this doesn't need to be stated. These forums are devoted to Third Edition; there are separate forums for Fourth Edition.If you are flat-footed, but you have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, do you lose your dodge bonuses?

Stated another way, does the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability allow the PC to avoid losing their dodge bonuses due to being flat-footed?Dodge bonuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#dodgeBonus) are lost if and only if you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC...and uncanny dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#uncannyDodge) prevents this circumstance from occuring if you're flat-footed.

Basically, no.
Tempest Stormwind
01-05-08, 05:32 PM Uncanny Dodge, in the rules, says that you don't lose your dexterity bonus to AC when flat-footed. Dodge bonuses are lost if and only if your Dexterity bonus is lost. If you're flat-footed with Uncanny Dodge, your Dodge and Dexterity bonuses still apply.

I forget how it works in NWN; I seem to recall Uncanny Dodge did something slightly different. (And I do hope that final patch includes the community expansion pack at the very least...)
Merestil Haye
01-05-08, 05:36 PM You will not get an official ruling from Wizards of the Coast here. The people who post here are players of the game. Many of the players have hundreds of hours of reading, thinking about and interpreting the rules.

Neitehr are they afraid to dispute what they see as an incorrect "call" in answer to a question such as yours. Consequently, what you will get is a discussion which either comes to a consensus about the correct interpretation of the rule, or devolves into a debate in which the various positions are done to death, but at least you know what the choices are.

In your case, I suspect you will get an emergent consensus. The SRD (an online version of the core rules, excluding some WotC IP monsters, character generation information and examples) has this to say about Dodge bonuses :Dodge Bonus

A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.(Bolding mine).

If you would be able to apply a Dex bonus to AC, you can apply Dodge bonuses. So the answer to your question is unequivocally "yes."

If you want an official ruling, your best bet is to scour the FAQ and/or submit a question to Sage Advice both of which you can find on the main website).
AlterFrom
01-05-08, 06:44 PM Just to be sure, did Uncanny Dodge do the same thing in 3e as it did in 3.5? Because, IIRC, NWN works off of the 3e rules, not 3.5 (which were taken up by NWN2).

Also, for comparison, in NWN Uncanny Dodge "X" (X being an integer equal or greater than 1) allows you to retain your DEX bonus (but not doge atm) and gaine a bonus on reflex saves to avoid traps equal to X-1.

Also Also, what's the word so far on when the 1.69 patch is coming?

Also Also Also, my :twocents:, UD lets you keep your DEX and doge bonuses to AC when caught flat-footed.
kingrthr3
01-05-08, 06:51 PM If you need an "official" ruling, you can contact Wizards of the Coast directly via e-mail - either Customer Service at custserv@wizards.com or to the Sage Advice column at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4mst/ask and click the "email form" link near the top.
Scrotok
01-06-08, 07:22 AM Thanks all!

(1) NoldorForce, where does it say that these forums are devoted to 3rd Ed. (3E)? Or how can it be inferred?

(2) Tempest Stormwind,

(a) UD in NWN does seem to work differently from the way many people (like me) think it should work -- that's why I'm trying to get it fixed. But since there's currently a debate on the NWN forums concerning how to interpret the rules, I'm trying to get an "official" ruling from WotC, then we'll try to convince BW that it's worth fixing for the final NWN patch, 1.69.

(b) Don't think 1.69 will include CEP, but that's OK with me, because the CEP folks are awesome and will adjust CEP to work with 1.69 :)

(3) Merestil Haye,

(a) I was told that sometimes WotC joins these forum discussions to give an official ruling. I've also submitted an email to them, so we should get the official ruling one way or another. Does WotC ever show up in the forums to give their position on the rules? Seems like a more efficient way of doing business than responding to the same question many times via email :)

(b) I also have hundreds of hours reading, thinking about, and interpreting the rules. I have already formed an opinion about how this particular rule should be interpreted, but because of the debate, I'm looking for an official call.

(c) I completely agree with your consensus/debate paragraph. That's basically what's happening on the NWN forum as well. Based on my research of other (older) forums, the previously-emergent consensus seems to fall in line with your/my interpretation.

(4) AlterFrom,

(a) NWN is indeed based on 3E.

(b) I think your description of how UD works atm is 100% correct.

(c) 1.69 will be released "when it's ready," but they're starting to do beta testing, so it will probably be soon. That's why I'm attempting, along with many other people, to get those final fixes made to the game (stuff we can't fix ourselves via scripting, hak paks, etc.).

(5) kingrthr3, thanks for the info. I initially tried to use custserv@wizards.com, but I don't think it's working anymore, so instead I emailed WotC using their http://wizards.custhelp.com/ website. I'll also submit it to the Sage Advice website.

Thanks again everyone!
JP
Merestil Haye
01-06-08, 07:52 AM (3) Merestil Haye,

(a) I was told that sometimes WotC joins these forum discussions to give an official ruling. I've also submitted an email to them, so we should get the official ruling one way or another. Does WotC ever show up in the forums to give their position on the rules? Seems like a more efficient way of doing business than responding to the same question many times via email :)Not that I know of. They have a mechanism for that on the Magic side of the board, but not in D&D - that I am aware of.

(b) I also have hundreds of hours reading, thinking about, and interpreting the rules. I have already formed an opinion about how this particular rule should be interpreted, but because of the debate, I'm looking for an official call.There may be a debate in NWN, because it seems that it works differently to the way it works in regular D&D, and I have no knowledge of that. (I've played NWN1, but never went for a class with the ability).

The bad news is that Customer Services are (a) not reliable and (b) not a channel WotC use to disseminate official rulings. So even when you get a reply, that won't settle things.

Customer services have demonstrated that it is too easy to ask them a leading question and get the result the questioner wants rather than the correct result. An example is found in this post.

If you want an official ruling, you will have to look in the FAQ, as that is the channel WotC uses to disseminate official rulings. The alternative is to email Sage Advice; unfortunately this now seems to be receiving less support.
kalstrand
01-06-08, 05:53 PM Uncanny Dodge did work differently in 3.0.

In 3.0 it was a multi-level class ability.

When you first received Uncanny Dodge it prevented you from losing your Dex bonus to AC even when flat-footed or when attacked by invisible opponents.

When you got the next level of Uncanny Dodge you could no longer be flanked unless the flanker was 4 levels higher (Improved Uncanny Dodge in 3.5.)

Every time you gained it after that you got a +1 bonus on Reflex saves and a +1 bonus on AC versus traps. The Barb ended up with a bonus of +4 at level 19 and the Rogue ended up with a +4 at level 20.

According to the 3.0 Players Handbook you would keep your Dex bonus and therefore your Dodge boni just as in 3.5 you just gain some more additional benefits if you stay in classes that give Uncanny Dodge.
Scrotok
01-06-08, 07:19 PM Hi all,

I just got this email from WotC!

*****

Hi there J,

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support!

We can only provide official support for the most recent version of an official rule. This means we do not currently support the 3.0 version of the PHB, rather only the PHB v.3.5.

On pg. 307 of the PHB v.3.5 under the "dodge bonus" glossary entry, the rule states that "Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have." So because you do not lose your Dex bonus to AC due to Uncanny Dodge, then you do not lose your dodge bonuses either.

Hopefully that clarifies things for you.

Take Care and Good Gaming!

Sam
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST

*****

The quote above (from p. 307 of the PHB v3.5) is basically identical to that found on p. 119 of the 3E PHB. Therefore, we have an official ruling from WotC: "because you do not lose your Dex bonus to AC due to Uncanny Dodge, then you do not lose your dodge bonuses either." Hopefully this satisfies everyone? Now we can petition BW to fix this for the final NWN patch! If interested, the post is here:

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=610113&forum=42&sp=30

Thanks all!
JP
elonin
01-07-08, 08:02 PM I'm wondering why people are citing NWN as a rules-like sourse? NWN has about as much rules legitimacy as reading some dnd based fiction. NWN is loosly based on 3.0 but is not bound by those rules.
Scrotok
01-07-08, 11:22 PM Elonin,

True, but that's the point. There are certain aspects of NWN which mirror 3E rules closely, others aspects which don't. I can understand those areas which don't follow 3E because of the fact that NWN is not really turn-based, or for some other "computer game vs. PnP" reason. But when it comes to the rest, I (and many other "purists" like me) want to see NWN mirror 3E as closely as possible. It's fun knowing the game is as close to 3E as possible, because that's what the game was originally advertised as, and it makes modding more fun (for me), knowing that the rule books I purchased are followed closely in-game. Other people may have their own reasons why they want NWN to be as close as possible to 3E.

JP

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scrotok 01-05-08, 07:06 AM	Hi all, I'm trying to get "official" help with a rules question related to D&D 3rd Edition (3E). Hopefully I've posted in the correct forum; if not, please let me know! The question is this: If you are flat-footed, but you have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, do you lose your dodge bonuses? Stated another way, does the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability allow the PC to avoid losing their dodge bonuses due to being flat-footed? Here's the reason I'm asking: http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/myviewtopic.html?topic=610113&forum=42&sp=0#5567572 Please let me know as soon as possible -- we're trying to get an "official" ruling on this before BioWare releases the final patch for Neverwinter Nights! JP
kingrthr3 01-05-08, 04:37 PM	Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Since Uncanny Dodge prevents you from losing your Dexterity bonus when flat-footed, you also keep your dodge bonuses, assuming you have them at the time. Many dodge bonuses, however, don't start until you activate them on your turn (such as the Dodge feat, fighting defensively, Combat Expertise, etc.) During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent on any action. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses. While uncanny dodge prevents you from losing your Dex bonus to AC while flat-footed, and thus doesn't stop you from using the Dodge feat, you don't get the benefit of the Dodge feat until you designate a target during your action. Nothing in the Uncanny Dodge ability indicates that you can set your Dodge target before your action comes up. Edit to add: I didn't check the Neverwinter Nights link above because I was too lazy to create an account on that board.
Scrotok 01-05-08, 05:14 PM	Awesome, thanks for the input! However, I'm looking for an official ruling from WotC on this issue, because we've heard both sides of the argument (yours being one of them) already on the NWN forum. Take care, JP
NoldorForce 01-05-08, 05:16 PM	Hi all, I'm trying to get "official" help with a rules question related to D&D 3rd Edition (3E). Hopefully I've posted in the correct forum; if not, please let me know!For future reference, this doesn't need to be stated. These forums are devoted to Third Edition; there are separate forums for Fourth Edition.If you are flat-footed, but you have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, do you lose your dodge bonuses? Stated another way, does the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability allow the PC to avoid losing their dodge bonuses due to being flat-footed?Dodge bonuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#dodgeBonus) are lost if and only if you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC...and uncanny dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#uncannyDodge) prevents this circumstance from occuring if you're flat-footed. Basically, no.
Tempest Stormwind 01-05-08, 05:32 PM	Uncanny Dodge, in the rules, says that you don't lose your dexterity bonus to AC when flat-footed. Dodge bonuses are lost if and only if your Dexterity bonus is lost. If you're flat-footed with Uncanny Dodge, your Dodge and Dexterity bonuses still apply. I forget how it works in NWN; I seem to recall Uncanny Dodge did something slightly different. (And I do hope that final patch includes the community expansion pack at the very least...)
Merestil Haye 01-05-08, 05:36 PM	You will not get an official ruling from Wizards of the Coast here. The people who post here are players of the game. Many of the players have hundreds of hours of reading, thinking about and interpreting the rules. Neitehr are they afraid to dispute what they see as an incorrect "call" in answer to a question such as yours. Consequently, what you will get is a discussion which either comes to a consensus about the correct interpretation of the rule, or devolves into a debate in which the various positions are done to death, but at least you know what the choices are. In your case, I suspect you will get an emergent consensus. The SRD (an online version of the core rules, excluding some WotC IP monsters, character generation information and examples) has this to say about Dodge bonuses :Dodge Bonus A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.(Bolding mine). If you would be able to apply a Dex bonus to AC, you can apply Dodge bonuses. So the answer to your question is unequivocally "yes." If you want an official ruling, your best bet is to scour the FAQ and/or submit a question to Sage Advice both of which you can find on the main website).
AlterFrom 01-05-08, 06:44 PM	Just to be sure, did Uncanny Dodge do the same thing in 3e as it did in 3.5? Because, IIRC, NWN works off of the 3e rules, not 3.5 (which were taken up by NWN2). Also, for comparison, in NWN Uncanny Dodge "X" (X being an integer equal or greater than 1) allows you to retain your DEX bonus (but not doge atm) and gaine a bonus on reflex saves to avoid traps equal to X-1. Also Also, what's the word so far on when the 1.69 patch is coming? Also Also Also, my :twocents:, UD lets you keep your DEX and doge bonuses to AC when caught flat-footed.
kingrthr3 01-05-08, 06:51 PM	If you need an "official" ruling, you can contact Wizards of the Coast directly via e-mail - either Customer Service at custserv@wizards.com or to the Sage Advice column at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4mst/ask and click the "email form" link near the top.
Scrotok 01-06-08, 07:22 AM	Thanks all! (1) NoldorForce, where does it say that these forums are devoted to 3rd Ed. (3E)? Or how can it be inferred? (2) Tempest Stormwind, (a) UD in NWN does seem to work differently from the way many people (like me) think it should work -- that's why I'm trying to get it fixed. But since there's currently a debate on the NWN forums concerning how to interpret the rules, I'm trying to get an "official" ruling from WotC, then we'll try to convince BW that it's worth fixing for the final NWN patch, 1.69. (b) Don't think 1.69 will include CEP, but that's OK with me, because the CEP folks are awesome and will adjust CEP to work with 1.69 :) (3) Merestil Haye, (a) I was told that sometimes WotC joins these forum discussions to give an official ruling. I've also submitted an email to them, so we should get the official ruling one way or another. Does WotC ever show up in the forums to give their position on the rules? Seems like a more efficient way of doing business than responding to the same question many times via email :) (b) I also have hundreds of hours reading, thinking about, and interpreting the rules. I have already formed an opinion about how this particular rule should be interpreted, but because of the debate, I'm looking for an official call. (c) I completely agree with your consensus/debate paragraph. That's basically what's happening on the NWN forum as well. Based on my research of other (older) forums, the previously-emergent consensus seems to fall in line with your/my interpretation. (4) AlterFrom, (a) NWN is indeed based on 3E. (b) I think your description of how UD works atm is 100% correct. (c) 1.69 will be released "when it's ready," but they're starting to do beta testing, so it will probably be soon. That's why I'm attempting, along with many other people, to get those final fixes made to the game (stuff we can't fix ourselves via scripting, hak paks, etc.). (5) kingrthr3, thanks for the info. I initially tried to use custserv@wizards.com, but I don't think it's working anymore, so instead I emailed WotC using their http://wizards.custhelp.com/ website. I'll also submit it to the Sage Advice website. Thanks again everyone! JP
Merestil Haye 01-06-08, 07:52 AM	(3) Merestil Haye, (a) I was told that sometimes WotC joins these forum discussions to give an official ruling. I've also submitted an email to them, so we should get the official ruling one way or another. Does WotC ever show up in the forums to give their position on the rules? Seems like a more efficient way of doing business than responding to the same question many times via email :)Not that I know of. They have a mechanism for that on the Magic side of the board, but not in D&D - that I am aware of. (b) I also have hundreds of hours reading, thinking about, and interpreting the rules. I have already formed an opinion about how this particular rule should be interpreted, but because of the debate, I'm looking for an official call.There may be a debate in NWN, because it seems that it works differently to the way it works in regular D&D, and I have no knowledge of that. (I've played NWN1, but never went for a class with the ability). The bad news is that Customer Services are (a) not reliable and (b) not a channel WotC use to disseminate official rulings. So even when you get a reply, that won't settle things. Customer services have demonstrated that it is too easy to ask them a leading question and get the result the questioner wants rather than the correct result. An example is found in this post. If you want an official ruling, you will have to look in the FAQ, as that is the channel WotC uses to disseminate official rulings. The alternative is to email Sage Advice; unfortunately this now seems to be receiving less support.
kalstrand 01-06-08, 05:53 PM	Uncanny Dodge did work differently in 3.0. In 3.0 it was a multi-level class ability. When you first received Uncanny Dodge it prevented you from losing your Dex bonus to AC even when flat-footed or when attacked by invisible opponents. When you got the next level of Uncanny Dodge you could no longer be flanked unless the flanker was 4 levels higher (Improved Uncanny Dodge in 3.5.) Every time you gained it after that you got a +1 bonus on Reflex saves and a +1 bonus on AC versus traps. The Barb ended up with a bonus of +4 at level 19 and the Rogue ended up with a +4 at level 20. According to the 3.0 Players Handbook you would keep your Dex bonus and therefore your Dodge boni just as in 3.5 you just gain some more additional benefits if you stay in classes that give Uncanny Dodge.
Scrotok 01-06-08, 07:19 PM	Hi all, I just got this email from WotC! *** Hi there J, Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support! We can only provide official support for the most recent version of an official rule. This means we do not currently support the 3.0 version of the PHB, rather only the PHB v.3.5. On pg. 307 of the PHB v.3.5 under the "dodge bonus" glossary entry, the rule states that "Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have." So because you do not lose your Dex bonus to AC due to Uncanny Dodge, then you do not lose your dodge bonuses either. Hopefully that clarifies things for you. Take Care and Good Gaming! Sam Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST *** The quote above (from p. 307 of the PHB v3.5) is basically identical to that found on p. 119 of the 3E PHB. Therefore, we have an official ruling from WotC: "because you do not lose your Dex bonus to AC due to Uncanny Dodge, then you do not lose your dodge bonuses either." Hopefully this satisfies everyone? Now we can petition BW to fix this for the final NWN patch! If interested, the post is here: http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=610113&forum=42&sp=30 Thanks all! JP
elonin 01-07-08, 08:02 PM	I'm wondering why people are citing NWN as a rules-like sourse? NWN has about as much rules legitimacy as reading some dnd based fiction. NWN is loosly based on 3.0 but is not bound by those rules.
Scrotok 01-07-08, 11:22 PM	Elonin, True, but that's the point. There are certain aspects of NWN which mirror 3E rules closely, others aspects which don't. I can understand those areas which don't follow 3E because of the fact that NWN is not really turn-based, or for some other "computer game vs. PnP" reason. But when it comes to the rest, I (and many other "purists" like me) want to see NWN mirror 3E as closely as possible. It's fun knowing the game is as close to 3E as possible, because that's what the game was originally advertised as, and it makes modding more fun (for me), knowing that the rule books I purchased are followed closely in-game. Other people may have their own reasons why they want NWN to be as close as possible to 3E. JP