Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AdroitMonk 02-03-05, 11:03 PM	This is related to my previous post regarding a friend who is upgrading from a +1 Composite Longbow to a +4 (equivalent with special abilities). Using her current bow, the player already has a +17 attack modifier at level 10 (6 Ranger/3 Order of the Bow/1 Deepwood Sniper). Her original plan was to upgrade it into a +2 Flaming Burst, but since her attack skill is so high, I think that extra +1 enhancement bonus could be better spent on a different special weapon ability combo, or just save the extra 14,000gp cost for other equipment. So, with 32,000gp to spend, what suggestions do you have for making something really nasty? :shocked:
Inigo Carmine 02-04-05, 01:18 AM	It's a matter of flavor. +1 to attack and damage, while plain and boring, is more powerful than most people think. Flaming adds an average of 3.5 damage per arrow that hits, but you must also spend a standard action at the beginning of combat to activate it, and at higher levels, something like fire resistance is almost standard. a straight enhancement bonus only averages a more damage on an arrow that hits, but it also means more of the arrows *will* hit. Your friend may have an excellent attack bonus, but at lvl 11 (when she gets a 3rd BAB attack) can she do a rapid shot and still always hit with her 4th arrow (which will be at -12 penalty compared to her normal attack bonus if she only fires a single arrow)? In my opinion, the power of the bow is always being able to make a full attack (compared to melee, where if someone moves at all, no more full attacking them). I personally love attack bonuses with bows. I save the elements for my melee weapons.
BlackFiend 02-04-05, 08:49 AM	When dealing with bows: Up the Enhancement bonus on the bow... Get arrows with special abilities. Remember, they don't stack, so get the best to hit you can with the bow. Then use the arrows for the "golf bag" of tactical arrows. 32K to spend...Get a +4 bow. When more money comes in later, buy special arrows to complement. Or...get a +2 holy bow. You'll almost always get your monies worth with holy. For instance: You find out you'll be facing a big mean Dragon...get 10 Dragon-bane arrows made for about 500gp. (2000+gp for 50 such arrows). If the next adventure is against trolls, pickup a batch trollbane, flaming arrows for cheap (a batch of 50 costs 16000+gp, so buy a batch of 10 for 3200gp. The money you'll save on healing potions alone will help defray the expense). Whoops...next adventure your fighting Fire Salamanders...get a batch of Shocking, Frost arrows made so that you can negate the miss chance from the flames AND get the additional damage in. Fighting constructs or creatures with Stoneskin? Get a few admantine arrows made. Fighting demons? A small batch of holy demon bane arrows are just too beautiful to behold. +4d6 an arrow to a demon. High AC...no problem. Each arrow is being fired at a +4 bonus due to the bow. BOOYAH! Fighting Werewolves...you head right to your local "Fixer" and get some silver bullets...I mean arrows. :) If you settle down and bought a +1 Flaming Bow...you would abhor having to fight red dragons and such all the time. It all about UTILS, man. When she goes to use her arrows, the first 1 should be her "good arrows", and the others her regular arrows. Stretches it out. Don't waste the good ones. But with each arrow she is striking lethally and if she crits, that +4 is mighty handy. The thing for an archer is to be able to always put the arrows on the mark 90% of the time...while still being mobile if possible. Often encounters will be short distance and the archer is paying the price for it the most when the enemy closes in on round 2 and starts laying the melee smack down. The mobile archer can make the enemy pay the cost for approaching. If there is anything I can't recommend for an archer...its a pair of Boots of Speed. The extra attack and the boost of speed...INVALUABLE...at only 12K gp. Solid investment. NOW...if she was a cleric archer, the advice would be different. She can hop up the enhancement bonus each day with a Greater Magic Weapon spell for a quick +3 all day bonus. In that case...she should load up on rare special abilities that stack and affect the most targets as possible. My cleric archer used the holy trinity known as SAM. (No...not Surface to Air Missile! Screeming, Acidic, and Merciful) After getting those buy batches HOLY arrows. Beautiful arrows soar through the air doing +5d6 per arrow. Avoid shocking...when you start facing demons, devils, and other outworld types...they all have electricity resistance. When you face creatures that get buffed...too many of them love and feed on electricity and grow. AVOID Shocking, imo.
kjenks 02-04-05, 08:51 AM	If you're limited to a +4 total (by cash or whatever) I suggest a +1 Shocking, Holy bow. Fewer creatures are resistant to electricity. Then get your spellcasting buddy to slap a Greater Magic Weapon on your bow. The two enhancement bonuses will overlap, not stack, but you still have the extra damage dice.
LeadMagnet 02-04-05, 09:37 AM	While playing Return to th Temple of Elemental Evil I upgraded my bow to Bane Elementals for that extra 2D6 (I think) Damage. Depending on your campaign, Bane(Insert common enemy type here) could be helpful.
Zherog 02-04-05, 10:58 AM	Then get your spellcasting buddy to slap a Greater Magic Weapon on your bow. The two enhancement bonuses will overlap, not stack, but you still have the extra damage dice. This is my advice as well. Spend the money on abilities, and convince the party cleric that slapping as GMW on the archer's bow is a good thing for the party. I'll have to dig around to find it, but chonjurer once demonstrated mathematically that having a burst weapon is inferior to having two elemental types. Now, I still like the flavor of burst - especially when you have a nice crit multiplier like your deepwood sniper with a bow (x4 if I recall correctly, and a range of 19-20). If you find yourself facing a lot of the same enemies, Bane is a great choice, as LeadMagnet pointed out. Against that creature type, the enhancement bonus increases by 2 and you get an extra 2d6 damage.
AdroitMonk 02-04-05, 11:37 AM	All this sounds like sound advice, guys. Thanks! I'll be sure to show it all to her. One thing I forgot to mention, however, which may or may not affect your opinion of adding effects that occur on a crit, is that she has the Improved Critical feat, and therefore threatens on 19-20. Also consider that a composite longbow is a 3x crit weapon, and many of those effects are also multiplied with crits (burst weapons, in particular). Since she'll be critting more often (particularly since her skill is so high on the confirmation rolls) than most people in the party, plus the higher multiplier, might critting effects be worth it now? As far as Holy is concerned, it's definitely a great effect, but her character is Chaotic Neutral, so "Holy" doesn't really fit the character concept. (But that's a role-playing issue, not a min-maxxing issue.) If she gets over that fact, she may decide it's worth it. As far as magic ammo with effects on them, I personally hate the idea of spending so much gold on single-use magic items (other than healing potions), but she may feel differently.
Sunrider 02-04-05, 11:51 AM	Get Magebane - anything with arcane spells or spell-like abilities takes the extra damage.
Zherog 02-04-05, 01:14 PM	I found the "math" from chonjurer. It's on a different message board, since I couldn't search here very effectively. linky (http://azure.bbboy.net/niftymessageboard-viewthread?forum=6&thread=522) It's interesting reading, really. I still like burst bows for the RP effect, though.
chocobochicken 02-04-05, 02:03 PM	What about Seeking? Trade in a +1 bonus for the ability to negate concealment from darkness, invisibility, or displacement effects.
AdroitMonk 02-04-05, 05:53 PM	I found the "math" from chonjurer. It's on a different message board, since I couldn't search here very effectively. linky (http://azure.bbboy.net/niftymessageboard-viewthread?forum=6&thread=522) It's interesting reading, really. I still like burst bows for the RP effect, though. I'm a bit confused by his math, to be honest. I'm not sure where he's coming up with his choice of effects. It's almost like he's comparing apples and oranges. For example, his first comparison is "d8+2+d6(elemental)+3d10(burst) vs. d8+2+2d6(elemental), 19-20/x4." First of all, I don't know of any bow that does x4 on a crit. I'm sure my friend would love it, though! Secondly, assuming the second bow ("2d6 elemental") is from two +1 enchantments (such as Frost + Shocking), remember that only one such elemental effect works at any given time. The description of each special ability says: "Upon command, a [single chosen element] weapon is sheathed in [chosen element]. The [effect] does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given. A [single chosen element] weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of [elemental] damage on a successful hit." Therefore, you either say, "Flame!" and get the flame effect, then "Shock!" to get the shock effect instead of flaming, NOT in addition to. As soon as you give the command for another effect, the first one ends. I'd be curious to see how his damage analysis program works with the proper bonuses added, though, particularly when comparing a +4 enhancement bonus weapon with a +2 enhancement/+1 elemental/+1 elemental, or any combination thereof.
IMarvinTPA 02-04-05, 06:08 PM	What happens when you program both to respond to the same command, such as "Energize!" then both are on? Nobody ever said they had to be different commands. IMarv
evangelion1010 02-05-05, 06:58 PM	Mage bane is a very good enchantment to get...very broken, but very good. For a +1, you get a +2 weapon with +2d6 damage against everything that has spells or SLAs... which at higher levels is just about everything, execpt some standard races with non-spellcasting PC classes. As far as enchantments, go with the +1 magebane holy weapon. Against most creatures, you'll do d8+3+4d6 damage. As a benefit, it bypasses DR/good. Then get GMW on the arrows.
AdroitMonk 02-06-05, 12:18 PM	What happens when you program both to respond to the same command, such as "Energize!" then both are on? Nobody ever said they had to be different commands. IMarv I'm fairly confident that's not what the game designers intended when the wrote the command word rule for each effect. If I were DM, I would certainly not allow it, for the same reason that a Psion manifesting Energy Bolt must choose which form of energy the effect takes. Otherwise, a Psion who augments the power with extra PP's would be allowed to say each additional die of damage is from a different effect, which is not logical. With the weapon, you are paying extra +1's for the versatility against multiple types of enemies, not stacking damage. Besides, the effects say the weapon is encased in the particular energy when the command is given. Would it make sense for frost and fire to be on the weapon at the same time, without extinguishing each other? (And don't say, "It's magic! It's not supposed to be logical!") :rolleyes: Mage bane is a very good enchantment to get...very broken, but very good. For a +1, you get a +2 weapon with +2d6 damage against everything that has spells or SLAs... which at higher levels is just about everything, execpt some standard races with non-spellcasting PC classes. As far as enchantments, go with the +1 magebane holy weapon. Against most creatures, you'll do d8+3+4d6 damage. As a benefit, it bypasses DR/good. Then get GMW on the arrows. Which book does Magebane come from?
IMarvinTPA 02-06-05, 12:47 PM	I'm fairly confident that's not what the game designers intended when the wrote the command word rule for each effect. If that were their intent, they would have said the abilities were mutually exclusive. With the weapon, you are paying extra +1's for the versatility against multiple types of enemies, not stacking damage. Besides, the effects say the weapon is encased in the particular energy when the command is given. Would it make sense for frost and fire to be on the weapon at the same time, without extinguishing each other? (And don't say, "It's magic! It's not supposed to be logical!") :rolleyes: The mage enhancing the weapon would design the two effects to swirl around each other and not interfere with each other. I would expect such a weapon to appear as an icy-blue firy-red candy cane swirl type effect. Either that or fire rising from the top of it and frost sinking from below it. Which book does Magebane come from? Complete Arcane.
AdroitMonk 02-06-05, 01:11 PM	If that were their intent, they would have said the abilities were mutually exclusive. They did, by saying each effect has a command word which ends when another command is given. That's my interpretation, at least, for the purposes of balance. Maybe we'll get an official ruling on that if a WotC mod reads the thread. (As unlikely as that probably is.) :coolcthul The mage enhancing the weapon would design the two effects to swirl around each other and not interfere with each other. I would expect such a weapon to appear as an icy-blue firy-red candy cane swirl type effect. Either that or fire rising from the top of it and frost sinking from below it. Again, from the book: "a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire". The definition of "sheathed" means "enclosed", which the effect would not be doing if it is forced to swirl around with other effects. Besides, being able to design a weapon which could do that should require an additional feat, IMO. At that point, you are talking artifact-level magic. ;) Thanks for the Complete Arcane reference. I don't have that book, but my DM does, so I'll get it from him.
Darastin 02-06-05, 01:46 PM	They did, by saying each effect has a command word which ends when another command is given. The boldened part is where you are wrong. There is nothing in the rules that states that activating a second ability of a given item automatically deactivates the first one. As for the designers intent, that's pretty unambiguous in the FAQ (pg 16): It works! They even explain that the creator of such a weapon can decide how it is activated. Just my two €-cents; Darastin
IMarvinTPA 02-06-05, 01:56 PM	They did, by saying each effect has a command word which ends when another command is given. The "another command" bit is the off switch command. Frost ON! Flame ON! Flame OFF! Frost Off! IMarv
AdroitMonk 02-06-05, 02:07 PM	The boldened part is where you are wrong. There is nothing in the rules that states that activating a second ability of a given item automatically deactivates the first one. But the book says, "Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire... The effect remains until another command is given." That's pretty straightforward, to me. I tried looking at the FAQ forums, and couldn't find anything there. I'll just ask my DM for his own ruling until I find an official ruling, I guess. If anyone has seen one, please LINK it here. The "another command" bit is the off switch command. Frost ON! Flame ON! Flame OFF! Frost Off! "Frost ON!" is a command. "Flame ON!" is another command. The "off switch" command is not exclusive. A command to the weapon is a command to the weapon, regardless of what is being commanded. As far as my friend is concerned, she's probably going to go with Holy Magebane now, anyway. At least those are not command-word effects, and therefore should not be as controversial. ;)
IMarvinTPA 02-06-05, 07:56 PM	The FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) says quite clearly on page 16: The new descriptions for the flaming, frost, and shock weapon special abilities say that these weapons’ energy effects work only on command. Why was this changed in the revision? Does that mean that their wielders must use a standard action to activate them for each attack? Or do the energy effects last awhile? If so, how long do they last? What’s the chance that you burn (or freeze or shock) yourself when holding onto an activated weapon? Can you put away an activated weapon without damaging the scabbard where you store it? What happens if you have ammunition with these effects? Do you have to activate each piece of ammunition separately? What happens if you have a flaming, frost, and shock weapon? Logically, such a weapon couldn’t exist, but what if it did? Would you have to activate each property separately? Finally, how does all this affect flaming burst, icy burst, and shocking burst weapons? Do these weapons’ flame, frost, and shock properties have to be activated for the burst powers to work? The flaming, frost, and shock weapon special abilities always have been command activated; the revision just clarified that. Activating an energy power requires a standard action, but once you activate energy power, the power works until you use another action to deactivate it. You can activate or deactivate one of these powers on up to 50 pieces of ammunition at the same time, provided that all the ammunition is in your possession, all the ammunition is the same kind, and all the ammunition has the same power. Any attack you make with an activated weapon deals energy damage to your foe if you hit—you don’t have to do anything special to deal energy damage with an activated weapon. A burst weapon’s burst power is use activated and it works even when the weapon’s energy power is not activated (see the last sentence in each power’s description). The energy from a flaming, frost, shock, flaming burst, icy burst, or shocking burst weapon never harms you while you’re wielding or carrying the activated weapon (see the power descriptions), and it will not harm your equipment. If you lose or set down an activated weapon, the energy it produces will harm other objects it touches, so it is best to deactivate it first. There’s nothing illogical about a flaming, frost, shock weapon (at least not within any framework that allows weapons to generate energy in the first place), and there’s no rule against such weapons (think of the weapon as having fiery, frosty, shocking flames). The character creating such a weapon decides how it can be activated. Most such weapons probably are made so that the wielders can activate all three powers simultaneously, or activate them one at a time, as desired.
Jaxen723 02-06-05, 09:09 PM	[QUOTE=IMarvinTPA]If that were their intent, they would have said the abilities were mutually exclusive. The mage enhancing the weapon would design the two effects to swirl around each other and not interfere with each other. I would expect such a weapon to appear as an icy-blue firy-red candy cane swirl type effect. Either that or fire rising from the top of it and frost sinking from below it. The only ability that combines Fire/Cold elemental damage is the Rimefire ability found in Frostburn.
AdroitMonk 02-07-05, 12:20 AM	:surrender You got me! Well, I guess that's it, then! IMHO, I feel the FAQ contradicts itself, based on: Activating an energy power...(each energy power being an individual +1 special ability) AND You can activate or deactivate one of these powers... are then contradicted by: Most such weapons probably are made so that the wielders can activate all three powers simultaneously, or activate them one at a time, as desired. If that's what WotC says, then hooray for the minmaxxers! ;) I'm not against min-maxxing, myself, be sure of that! My DM prefers a more balanced game, however, so that's part of why I posed the original question. (To give you an idea of how my DM works, he's banned all Forgotten Realms material based almost solely on the Spellcasting Prodigy+Mystic Theurge combo.) I'll let my friend know she can stack the elements instead of one at a time, and we'll see if she'll do that instead of Holy Magebane. (The latter combo is probably better, anyway, unless WotC changes Magebane to a +2 enhancement to be more in line with the similar Holy effect.) I totally forgot about the main FAQ PDF file, to be honest. I kept looking for something in the forum FAQs, which didn't work well with Search down. :P I've printed the individual book errata, but they don't cover this as the FAQ does. Looks like I've got more printing to do! ;)