Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orenmir 06-05-07, 11:40 AM	Being half frost giant, I take an extra 50% damage against fire on a failed save. I wear red dragonscale full plate that deflects 10 hp of fire damage, plus it absorbs 50% of all magical damage. I also wear an amulet that provides DR 5/-. Being hit by a fireball puts all 4 of these DRs into action. My question is: What order do the calculations take place? Let's say the fireball deals a big nasty 60 hp of damage. Scenario 1 - I make the save (down to 30). Armor deflects 10 (down to 20). Armor absorbs 50% (down to 10). Amulet DR 5 (down to 5). Scenario 2 - I fail the save. Armor deflects 10 (down to 50). Armor absorbs 50% (down to 25). Amulet DR 5 (down to 20). Failed save adds 50% (up to 30). These 2 scenarios are only a guess at the correct order that the DRs should take place. Let me know what is correct. I realize that everybody may have differing opinions about the order; so, let me know the reasoning behind your answer. Many thanks for your help. (After rereading my post, I realized how overpowered my gear seems. I may have to reconsider its balance... But for now, I want to figure out the correct calculation order.)
runestar 06-05-07, 11:47 AM	Dr does not apply to spell damage. Vulnerabilities typically kick in only when you start taking damage. Resistances apply when you are hit by a damage source, but before the damage is actually applied. Thus, resistances should apply first, then vulnerabilities. So in your case, the order would be... 1) Make/fail save 2) Apply resistances and reduce damage taken accordingly. I am not sure if the -10 fire damage or the -50% modifier applies first, but I will give you the benefit of a doubt and allow for the more advantageous combination (-50% magic damage, then -10 from the remainder) 3) Apply vulnerabilities and increase remaining damage taken accordingly. Being half frost giant, I take an extra 50% damage against fire on a failed save. This is a very weird ability. Are you still using 3.0 terminology? In 3.5, cold subtype simply multiplies all fire damage taken by 1.5, regardless of whether save was made or not.
goawayugh 06-05-07, 12:02 PM	Being half frost giant, I take an extra 50% damage against fire on a failed save. It's not "on a failed save", it's all fire damage, period. DR does not apply to spells. When situations occur like this, the stuff generally gets applied in the most favorable order to the PC.
Orenmir 06-05-07, 12:19 PM	Dr does not apply to spell damage. OK, I feel pretty stupid for not knowing that. It does make my gear seem slightly more balanced, though. Thanks. This is a very weird ability. Are you still using 3.0 terminology? In 3.5, cold subtype simply multiplies all fire damage taken by 1.5, regardless of whether save was made or not. Yes, there's a very good chance of that. This PC was created back in v2.0, and I've tried to keep him updated. Being only half frost giant, I've tried to accomodate half of the cold subtype. For instance, I'm not immune to cold -- instead, I have cold resistance (10 hp DR). If I were to apply that logic to fire damage, should I say that fire damage deals me an extra 25%? And, by the way, thanks for the tips on calculation order. That helps a lot.
Vegepygmy 06-05-07, 12:32 PM	Runestar has it right. Per the FAQ: If the creature has both resistance and vulnerability to the same kind of damage, apply the resistance (which reduces the damage dealt by the effect) before applying the vulnerability (which increases the damage taken by the creature). For example, imagine our frost giant wore a ring of minor fire resistance (granting resistance to fire 10). If the save failed, the frost giant would take 37 points of fire damage: 35 (fireball) – 10 (resistance to fire 10) = 25, plus one-half of 25 (12.5, rounded down to 12). If the save succeeded, the frost giant would take only 10 points of damage: 17 (half damage from the fireball, rounded down) – 10 (resistance to fire 10) = 7, plus one-half of 7 (3.5, rounded down to 3). As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the creature. In the case of damage, this typically means applying any damage-reducing effects first, before applying any effects that would increase damage. Being only half frost giant, I've tried to accomodate half of the cold subtype. For instance, I'm not immune to cold -- instead, I have cold resistance (10 hp DR). If I were to apply that logic to fire damage, should I say that fire damage deals me an extra 25%?I would not try to "split" a subtype if I were you. I'd either give you the cold subtype (and with it, cold immunity and vulnerability to fire) or just give you cold resistance 10 (which isn't so very powerful) and have you role-play an extreme dislike of fire.
Alvoros Darkleaf 06-05-07, 12:35 PM	Being half frost giant, I take an extra 50% damage against fire on a failed save. I wear red dragonscale full plate that deflects 10 hp of fire damage, plus it absorbs 50% of all magical damage. I also wear an amulet that provides DR 5/-. Being hit by a fireball puts all 4 of these DRs into action. My question is: What order do the calculations take place? Let's say the fireball deals a big nasty 60 hp of damage. Scenario 1 - I make the save (down to 30). Armor deflects 10 (down to 20). Armor absorbs 50% (down to 10). Amulet DR 5 (down to 5). Scenario 2 - I fail the save. Armor deflects 10 (down to 50). Armor absorbs 50% (down to 25). Amulet DR 5 (down to 20). Failed save adds 50% (up to 30). These 2 scenarios are only a guess at the correct order that the DRs should take place. Let me know what is correct. I realize that everybody may have differing opinions about the order; so, let me know the reasoning behind your answer. Many thanks for your help. (After rereading my post, I realized how overpowered my gear seems. I may have to reconsider its balance... But for now, I want to figure out the correct calculation order.) As a repeat to what the others have said, you take full damage from spells, as spells ignore DR/-. What armor absorbs 50% of magical damage? Source book? I am also not sure where you are getting the half-giant stats from...i.e. 50% fire vulnerability. According to the XPH half-giant stats, you would get a +2 to cold saves and effects, and that is about it. Are there some other half-giant templates around you are using? Alvo
Orenmir 06-05-07, 12:50 PM	What armor absorbs 50% of magical damage? Source book? Beats me! The PC built the armor, and the dragon from which the scales came from imbued the magical properties. So, I guess it's not really from any sourcebook -- its creation was roleplayed. My DM at the time gave me the stats. Too powerful? Any suggestions to balance it out? I am also not sure where you are getting the half-giant stats from...i.e. 50% fire vulnerability. According to the XPH half-giant stats, you would get a +2 to cold saves and effects, and that is about it. Are there some other half-giant templates around you are using? Since this PC was created back in v2.0 and before any half giant templates, I've tried to keep him updated but not completely revamp all his racial attributes. Currently, those are: Resistant to cold - 10 hp Vulnerable to fire - add 50% on a failed save (I'm considereing changing that to - add 25% always) I don't have access to any official templates, so I'm not sure what to do there. Let me know how you think these should be updated. Thanks.
Nephlite 06-05-07, 02:25 PM	Resistant to cold - 10 hp Vulnerable to fire - add 50% on a failed save (I'm considereing changing that to - add 25% always) I don't have access to any official templates, so I'm not sure what to do there. Let me know how you think these should be updated. Thanks. Resistance is'nt measured in hps. You mean Cold Resistance 10. Vulnerable to fire: 1.5 fire (energy) damage (which is how vulneability works).
Orenmir 06-05-07, 02:37 PM	Resistance is'nt measured in hps. You mean Cold Resistance 10. So, what does the "10" mean in this instance? Vulnerable to fire: 1.5 fire (energy) damage (which is how vulneability works). More precisely, 1.25 -- because I was trying to cut the subtype in half (which I understand might be a bad idea, and open to better suggestions). 1.5 is for the full cold subtype; so, if I take that, I might as well take full immunity to cold -- then I woud have the attributes of a 100% frost giant. The PC is only half.
goawayugh 06-05-07, 02:47 PM	The cold subtype has a very deffinate defination. Either give it to him or not, along with all of the bonuses and penalties. (immunity to cold, vul. to fire) If you don't want to give him the cold subtype, then give him cold resistance.
lint trap 06-05-07, 02:49 PM	So, what does the "10" mean in this instance? It means, from any cold damage taken, you subtract the first 10 points.
Orenmir 06-05-07, 02:55 PM	It means, from any cold damage taken, you subtract the first 10 points. 10 hit points, right? Resistance is'nt measured in hps. You mean Cold Resistance 10. What did I miss here? Do I resist 10 HIT POINTS or not?
Orenmir 06-05-07, 02:59 PM	The cold subtype has a very deffinate defination. Either give it to him or not, along with all of the bonuses and penalties. (immunity to cold, vul. to fire) If you don't want to give him the cold subtype, then give him cold resistance. No worries. I was just trying to come up with something that seemed most realistic. I'll stop trying to come up with my own half cold subtype. Resistance seems more realistic. The full subtype seems more fun.
lint trap 06-05-07, 03:01 PM	Attacks deal hit point damage, and these are subtracted from a character's hit points. Whenever someone says damage, it's hit point damage unless stated otherwise (i.e. ability damage). So yes, Cold Resistence 10 means you take 10 less hp damage from cold attacks.
souldragon_420 06-05-07, 03:04 PM	Yes you resist 10 hps they are just being picky about "D&D Grammar".
Orenmir 06-05-07, 03:09 PM	Resistance is'nt measured in hps. So, what is resistance measured in? less hp damage Oh! Sorry, I get sardonic when I'm frustrated.
Vegepygmy 06-05-07, 03:50 PM	So, what is resistance measured in?"Points?" The nitpick is that you write it like this: "cold resistance 10" or: "resist cold 10" but not: "cold resistance 10 hp" Writing it as you did isn't so much wrong as it is redundant.
InkBlot 06-05-07, 06:08 PM	Energy resistance reduces damage. It doesn't directly make you lose less HP. It's a subtle distinction, but it can be important sometimes. It would be more important more often if there were more things that lessen how much HP you lose, rather than lessen how much damage is dealt to you. Basically, energy resistance lessens the damage before it ever reaches your HP. So if you have fire resistance 10, and 10 HP, and get hit with a fireball that does 20 points of fire damage, then you get reduced to 0 HP but you don't die. If energy resistance worked on your HP, rather than on damage, then you would die first and then the energy resistance would be applied. There's a note on this in the PHB somewhere.