+4 weapon + Bane = +6 or not? [Archive] - Wizards Community

+4 weapon + Bane = +6 or not? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tenken
06-17-05, 08:50 PM If you have a +4 weapon, and you get the Bane enchantment to it, will the weapon act as a +6 weapon vs the bane creature?
Count Arioch the 28th
06-17-05, 08:55 PM I would rule yes, but only for the bane creature type. Otherwise, it'd be a +4 weapon.
Nephlite
06-17-05, 08:58 PM I would rule yes, but only for the bane creature type. Otherwise, it'd be a +4 weapon.

Yeah that is how it should work, only against the baned creature.
Tenken
06-17-05, 09:00 PM The reason I ask is because you can't have an actual +5 weapon (so says the DMG), so I wondered if this would make it only a +5 or not. But anyways, that's cool, +6 vs the bane creature it is :)
Lycanthromancer
06-17-05, 09:30 PM So, what happens if you have a +5 Bane (Evil), Bane (Undead) weapon? How exactly would those stack against an evil undead (such as the Lich Queen, Vlaakith)? :plotting:
Zherog
06-17-05, 09:36 PM At least by the core rules, there is no such thing as Bane (Evil) - so it's really a trick question. ;)
Nephlite
06-17-05, 10:22 PM At least by the core rules, there is no such thing as Bane (Evil) - so it's really a trick question. ;)

Good point.

How about Bane (Female) or Bane (male)? I mean they aren't alignments and I can can see someone being angry enough to try to invent it.

Is it not possible because genders aren't races or what?
the Horc
06-18-05, 12:52 AM Here's a better one:

A Bane of Evil Outsiders and a Bane of Chaotic Outsiders weapon hitting a demon. Do they stack?
Tenken
06-18-05, 12:55 AM Bane enchantment can only be done on creatures. It's in the DMG, and in the SRD, there's a list of all the creatures you can have for it. Genders and alignments aren't affected.
Fiery_Overlord
06-18-05, 01:20 AM You are quite correct bane weapons only affect creatures by type and subtype.

"Bane: A bane weapon excels at attacking one type or subtype of creature. Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the bane quality upon their ammunition. To randomly determine a weapon’s designated foe, roll on the following table.

d% Designated Foe
01–05 Aberrations
06–09 Animals
10–16 Constructs
17–22 Dragons
23–27 Elementals
28–32 Fey
33–39 Giants
40 Humanoids, aquatic
41–42 Humanoids, dwarf
43–44 Humanoids, elf
45 Humanoids, gnoll
46 Humanoids, gnome
47–49 Humanoids, goblinoid
50 Humanoids, halfling
51–54 Humanoids, human
55–57 Humanoids, reptilian
58–60 Humanoids, orc
61–65 Magical beasts
66–70 Monstrous humanoids
71–72 Oozes
73 Outsiders, air
74–76 Outsiders, chaotic
77 Outsiders, earth
78–80 Outsiders, evil
81 Outsiders, fire
82–84 Outsiders, good
85–87 Outsiders, lawful
88 Outsiders, water
89–90 Plants
91–98 Undead
99–100 Vermin
Moderate conjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, summon monster I; Price +1 bonus."-SRD

However you may notice that outsiders specificly have alignment based subtype. The other crazy thing is outsiders often have more than one subtype. This really wouldn't apply to anything other than outsiders, so it is rather specific. (oh except half-elves and half-orc they are affected by magical items as if they were both heritage, pretty fun huh? Picture the Orc double axes that are bane Humanoid-Human AND bane Humanoid-Elves for a half elf, not an appealing picture. or Elven bows Bane orc and Humans because poor relation of humans with the local elves...)

Note since this actually adds above the enhancement for the specific foe it would indeed be a rare case of stacking. However putting multiple bane subtypes on weapon makes it very target specific to be used to it's full portential so that helps balance it back down a bit.

However for a pretty beefy weapon I like to call "Demon's Doom" this is a Holy and Axiomatic +1 Composite Longbow(+4 str) which has bane against Evil and Choatic Outsiders. Moderate Conjuration, and Evocation[lawful] and [good], Caster Level 8, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, summon monster I, order’s wrath,holy smite, creator must be lawful and good; Cost 98,800 gp

It has a +5 to hit demons and deals 1d8 + Up to a plus 4 Str Bonus + 5 + 8d6 per arrow hit against a demon and bypasses Magic, Lawful and Good DR, possibly alchemical silver, cold iron, or adamanitine based on ammo used. Those who are chaotic gain 1 negative level. Those that are evil gain 1 negative level. If both chaotic and evil 2 negative levels are gained. Against an animal hunting? Just a simple +1 weapon. This weapon was made with a very specific purpose in mind. It would require a lawful good divine spellcaster of at least 8th level to make this this lovely item, for the price of a what could be a new wing for a temple or church. Dispite a base bonus of +1 this is a awesome weapon for high to mid level palidins. Espcially handy for demons because many can fly.
aelryinth
06-18-05, 02:31 AM Sure the weapon would be +6.

I think, what you really want to ask, would the weapon be EPIC for purposes of punching thru DR.

My reply...are you wielding an Epic weapon?
No.
Then by RAW, no, it doesn't satisfy the condition, even if the enhancement bonus is +20. A Mystic Duellist, for example, wielding a +5 rapier, effectively has a weapon with a +10 Enhancement. It STILL is not an Epic Weapon.

A lot of people will House Rule that a +6 bonus is effectively Epic vs the baned monster, of course. But it IS a House Rule.

And it's much, much cheaper to make up two +4 swords, stack 6 bane effects on them, then to make a single +6 weapon, and be covered against just about anything you run into.

==Aelryinth
Bopple
06-18-05, 02:39 AM A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus.
Then effectively +6 weapons are to be considered to penetrate epic DR?
Yes, I'd say so.
april151978
06-18-05, 03:45 AM Then effectively +6 weapons are to be considered to penetrate epic DR?
Yes, I'd say so.

Not quite sure without my books handy, but I think for a weapon to be epic, it needs to have a base enchantment over +5, or total enchantments over +10... Epic Handbook would be the source, but it is not here for me to confirm this... :weep:

Someone care to look this up?...
Mellowship Slinky
06-18-05, 04:12 AM (oh except half-elves and half-orc they are affected by magical items as if they were both heritage, pretty fun huh? Picture the Orc double axes that are bane Humanoid-Human AND bane Humanoid-Elves for a half elf, not an appealing picture. or Elven bows Bane orc and Humans because poor relation of humans with the local elves...)

Half orcs and Half elves are both treated as if they are pure-blooded orcs or elves for any magic item.
Greyman
06-18-05, 04:54 AM If you have a +4 weapon, and you get the Bane enchantment to it, will the weapon act as a +6 weapon vs the bane creature?The reason I ask is because you can't have an actual +5 weapon (so says the DMG), so I wondered if this would make it only a +5 or not. But anyways, that's cool, +6 vs the bane creature it is :)Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. In addition to this they may have a special abilities that count as enhancement bonuses for the purpose of cost calculations. The total of this modified (pricing) enhancement cannot ecxeed +10.

A +4 bane weapon is quite permisable and grants a +6 enhancement bonus to attacks a damage against the baned creature type, as well as dealing +2d6 extra points of damage.

Indeed a +5 bane weapon would be possible, for a +7 enhancement bonus against the baned creatures.
Here's a better one:

A Bane of Evil Outsiders and a Bane of Chaotic Outsiders weapon hitting a demon. Do they stack?Nope. General stacking rules apply. Like as for Favoured Enemy bonuses against outsider subtypes, bane's enhancement bonuses against outsider subtypes do not stack.

If you're going against demons it's better to have a holy weapon anyway - for the same price it grants the same extra damage (though not the increase to enhancement) and overcomes damage reduction too. Better make it from cold iron to be sure.
Vrellum
06-18-05, 10:29 AM If you're going against demons it's better to have a holy weapon anyway - for the same price it grants the same extra damage (though not the increase to enhancement) and overcomes damage reduction too. Better make it from cold iron to be sure.

Bane is cheaper (+1) than holy (+2). And bane grants an additional +2 to hit.
tarkin
06-18-05, 11:18 AM re-read his post. He was not discussig Bane vs. Holy. Instead he was Discussing a

+1 Bane Evil Outsider, Bane Chaotic Outsider weapon

vs.

+1 Holy weapon

Net cost is the same, both grant +2d6 of damage, Holy grants DR penetration, the other has +2 to hit and damage.

He was saying that Holy is the better deal, which would be true only if they had DR of around 10 or better in my opinion.
Lycanthromancer
06-18-05, 11:19 AM Hmmm...I'd say that Holy would be the equivalent of Bane (Evil). That's what I meant...I hadn't had much sleep the previous night.

Sorry, but I'm better now. :D
Vrellum
06-18-05, 11:49 AM re-read his post. He was not discussig Bane vs. Holy. Instead he was Discussing a

+1 Bane Evil Outsider, Bane Chaotic Outsider weapon

vs.

+1 Holy weapon

Net cost is the same, both grant +2d6 of damage, Holy grants DR penetration, the other has +2 to hit and damage.

He was saying that Holy is the better deal, which would be true only if they had DR of around 10 or better in my opinion.

Whoops, sorry.
Greyman
06-18-05, 12:11 PM M... True, the distinction is less at lower AC. With DR 5/good, or DR 5/good and cold iron, a bane weapon would be dealing out 3 less points than a holy weapon, but hitting slightly more often, but it depends on the demon's AC. If the DR were 5/good or cold iron, a bane weapon of that special material would have the edge.

At higher DR, Holy is going to have the clear advantage, but that's still only better if you are focused on opposing deamons. A double bane weapon has the advantage of a wider target audience.
Greyman
06-18-05, 12:20 PM So, what happens if you have a +5 Bane (Evil), Bane (Undead) weapon? How exactly would those stack against an evil undead (such as the Lich Queen, Vlaakith)? :plotting:Hmmm...I'd say that Holy would be the equivalent of Bane (Evil). That's what I meant...I hadn't had much sleep the previous night.Holy isn't quite the same as bane. It has a broader application (all evil creatures rather than just evil outsiders) and overcomes damage reduction as a good aligned weapon. Hence the +2 effective bonus cost rather than +1.

However, yes, it would stack.

A +5 holy bane undead weapon would have a +7 enhancement to attack and damage against evil undead and deal an extra +4d6 points of damage as well as overcoming any damage reduction against good.
Lycanthromancer
06-18-05, 01:07 PM A +5 holy bane undead weapon would have a +7 enhancement to attack and damage against evil undead and deal an extra +4d6 points of damage as well as overcoming any damage reduction against good.
In other words, the Vlaakith would be in for a world of pain.

:D

I hate the Lich Queen. :hoppingma :headexplo :hoppingma
Tenken
06-18-05, 06:44 PM I hate the Lich Queen. :hoppingma :headexplo :hoppingma

Kinda off topic here, but a lich is just an undead right? In the MM it says that to acquire the lich template, the creature change their type to undead. Just making sure, because I know my party's final enemy will be a lich. I'm preparing that +5 Holy and Bane (undead) weapon for it :)
aelryinth
06-18-05, 08:45 PM Bane (chaotic outsider) and bane (evil outsider) will most definitely stack. Bane is untyped damage, and the effects are triggered by different items. If you bane (chaotic) TWICE...the effects won't stack. It's chaotic bane damage. There's a WoTC module with a dancing longsword, Bane (Lawful Out), Bane (evil outsider), Holy. Nasty devil slaying tool.

Banes might make an enhancement weapon +6, but that doesn't make a weapon epic, anymore then a Small Longsword is actually a shortsword. An Epic weapon IS an Epic weapon...it could be +1 Vorpal Brilliant Holy and be Epic. It doesn't say +6/30 like it used to. Epic is actually MUCH more restrictive...which makes solars really nasty, eh?

But, House-rule away.

==Aelryinth
Nephlite
06-18-05, 10:34 PM Banes might make an enhancement weapon +6, but that doesn't make a weapon epic, anymore then a Small Longsword is actually a shortsword. An Epic weapon IS an Epic weapon...it could be +1 Vorpal Brilliant Holy and be Epic. It doesn't say +6/30 like it used to. Epic is actually MUCH more restrictive...which makes solars really nasty, eh?

But, House-rule away.

==Aelryinth

Mechanically a Small longsword is equivalent to a longsword.

Epic requires +6 enhancement to hit/damage. That is it!
+1 Vorpol Brillant Holy isn't epic because the bonus isn't Epic! You have just +1 hit/damage not +6.

If Bane make an enhancement weapon +6 than it is Epic according to what Epic is for DR.
aelryinth
06-19-05, 12:45 AM By your definition, throwing a Bane(monster) spell on a +4 weapon would allow it to punch thru Epic DR.

Nah. An Epic weapon IS an Epic weapon...not a +6 enhanced weapon, temporarily or no.

But, as I said, house rule away.

==Aelryinth
Bopple
06-19-05, 07:16 AM I'll repeat it;
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus.
Nephlite
06-19-05, 10:00 AM I'll repeat it;
And as he said, "it could be +1 Vorpal Brilliant Holy"

that weapon doesn't have an Epic-like bonus. Sure it has a high bonus, but not Epic for DR.
Rulebook
06-19-05, 10:26 AM it dosent say "it gets a +2 bane bonus" or anything, it says "its effective enhancement bonus is +2 higher" which means a +4 bane weapon would indeed have a +6 enhancement bonus vs its bane enemy.

but this only counts for enhancement bonuses, not total enhancements. it still seems that people are confusing the two. only enhancement bonus can cut epic DR, not total enhancements. total enhancements are for cost purposes only. bane, keen, flaming and the like do not increase the enhancement bonus (and subsequently not the hardness/hp of the item either). a +1 bane(x8) sword is still a +1 sword for purposes of other monsters or sunder attempts. but if any monster should (theoretically) hit every single bane requirement it'd jump to a +3 (it only states +2 higher than normal, not an unamed +2 bonus) and hit for like an extra 16d6 or something.

if im demon hunting i'd still rather just have a holy weapon though.
Nephlite
06-19-05, 10:34 AM it dosent say "it gets a +2 bane bonus" or anything, it says "its effective enhancement bonus is +2 higher" which means a +4 bane weapon would indeed have a +6 enhancement bonus vs its bane enemy.

but this only counts for enhancement bonuses, not total enhancements. it still seems that people are confusing the two. only enhancement bonus can cut epic DR, not total enhancements. total enhancements are for cost purposes only. bane, keen, flaming and the like do not increase the enhancement bonus (and subsequently not the hardness/hp of the item either). a +1 bane(x8) sword is still a +1 sword for purposes of other monsters or sunder attempts. but if any monster should (theoretically) hit every single bane requirement it'd jump to a +3 (it only states +2 higher than normal, not an unamed +2 bonus) and hit for like an extra 16d6 or something.

if im demon hunting i'd still rather just have a holy weapon though.

What kind of monster has 8 types in theory?
I could give subtypes like 1/2 Dragon, 1/2 Fiend, 1/2 Ogre,1/2 Construct to a humaniod

But than you got dragon, outsider, giant, construct human. That is at most 10d6 if you got every bane.

How could you get 16d6 in theory?
Rulebook
06-19-05, 10:37 AM okay... do you understand the concept of the term Theory? in THEORY you could create such a monster. in THEORY such monsters could fight your adventurer. in THEORY he could have had enough foresight to create such a weapon in anticipation.

have any of these things ACTUALLY occured? no. but COULD they concievably, and i mean even stretching it with DM fiat... COULD they exist? yes. thats what THEORY means.

sheesh. i figured it just spoke for itself without having to explain it.
primemover003
06-19-05, 11:11 AM I'm with Aelryinth on this. A +4 Bane weapon has an adjusted +6 bonus, but does not count as an Epic weapon. It takes more than just +6 to make a weapon Epic, namely being crafted by an Epic character with the Epic Arms and Armor item creation feat.

The +5 Bane (evil outsider) weapon will be a force to reckon with against any fiend up to Balors and Pit fiends, but Archduke Dispater or Graz'zt are going to laugh against it. You can still use the weapon and it'll help more than another weapon against this level of evil, but don't expect it to cut like a hot knife through butter.

Not gonna happen.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tenken 06-17-05, 08:50 PM	If you have a +4 weapon, and you get the Bane enchantment to it, will the weapon act as a +6 weapon vs the bane creature?
Count Arioch the 28th 06-17-05, 08:55 PM	I would rule yes, but only for the bane creature type. Otherwise, it'd be a +4 weapon.
Nephlite 06-17-05, 08:58 PM	I would rule yes, but only for the bane creature type. Otherwise, it'd be a +4 weapon. Yeah that is how it should work, only against the baned creature.
Tenken 06-17-05, 09:00 PM	The reason I ask is because you can't have an actual +5 weapon (so says the DMG), so I wondered if this would make it only a +5 or not. But anyways, that's cool, +6 vs the bane creature it is :)
Lycanthromancer 06-17-05, 09:30 PM	So, what happens if you have a +5 Bane (Evil), Bane (Undead) weapon? How exactly would those stack against an evil undead (such as the Lich Queen, Vlaakith)? :plotting:
Zherog 06-17-05, 09:36 PM	At least by the core rules, there is no such thing as Bane (Evil) - so it's really a trick question. ;)
Nephlite 06-17-05, 10:22 PM	At least by the core rules, there is no such thing as Bane (Evil) - so it's really a trick question. ;) Good point. How about Bane (Female) or Bane (male)? I mean they aren't alignments and I can can see someone being angry enough to try to invent it. Is it not possible because genders aren't races or what?
the Horc 06-18-05, 12:52 AM	Here's a better one: A Bane of Evil Outsiders and a Bane of Chaotic Outsiders weapon hitting a demon. Do they stack?
Tenken 06-18-05, 12:55 AM	Bane enchantment can only be done on creatures. It's in the DMG, and in the SRD, there's a list of all the creatures you can have for it. Genders and alignments aren't affected.
Fiery_Overlord 06-18-05, 01:20 AM	You are quite correct bane weapons only affect creatures by type and subtype. "Bane: A bane weapon excels at attacking one type or subtype of creature. Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the bane quality upon their ammunition. To randomly determine a weapon’s designated foe, roll on the following table. d% Designated Foe 01–05 Aberrations 06–09 Animals 10–16 Constructs 17–22 Dragons 23–27 Elementals 28–32 Fey 33–39 Giants 40 Humanoids, aquatic 41–42 Humanoids, dwarf 43–44 Humanoids, elf 45 Humanoids, gnoll 46 Humanoids, gnome 47–49 Humanoids, goblinoid 50 Humanoids, halfling 51–54 Humanoids, human 55–57 Humanoids, reptilian 58–60 Humanoids, orc 61–65 Magical beasts 66–70 Monstrous humanoids 71–72 Oozes 73 Outsiders, air 74–76 Outsiders, chaotic 77 Outsiders, earth 78–80 Outsiders, evil 81 Outsiders, fire 82–84 Outsiders, good 85–87 Outsiders, lawful 88 Outsiders, water 89–90 Plants 91–98 Undead 99–100 Vermin Moderate conjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, summon monster I; Price +1 bonus."-SRD However you may notice that outsiders specificly have alignment based subtype. The other crazy thing is outsiders often have more than one subtype. This really wouldn't apply to anything other than outsiders, so it is rather specific. (oh except half-elves and half-orc they are affected by magical items as if they were both heritage, pretty fun huh? Picture the Orc double axes that are bane Humanoid-Human AND bane Humanoid-Elves for a half elf, not an appealing picture. or Elven bows Bane orc and Humans because poor relation of humans with the local elves...) Note since this actually adds above the enhancement for the specific foe it would indeed be a rare case of stacking. However putting multiple bane subtypes on weapon makes it very target specific to be used to it's full portential so that helps balance it back down a bit. However for a pretty beefy weapon I like to call "Demon's Doom" this is a Holy and Axiomatic +1 Composite Longbow(+4 str) which has bane against Evil and Choatic Outsiders. Moderate Conjuration, and Evocation[lawful] and [good], Caster Level 8, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, summon monster I, order’s wrath,holy smite, creator must be lawful and good; Cost 98,800 gp It has a +5 to hit demons and deals 1d8 + Up to a plus 4 Str Bonus + 5 + 8d6 per arrow hit against a demon and bypasses Magic, Lawful and Good DR, possibly alchemical silver, cold iron, or adamanitine based on ammo used. Those who are chaotic gain 1 negative level. Those that are evil gain 1 negative level. If both chaotic and evil 2 negative levels are gained. Against an animal hunting? Just a simple +1 weapon. This weapon was made with a very specific purpose in mind. It would require a lawful good divine spellcaster of at least 8th level to make this this lovely item, for the price of a what could be a new wing for a temple or church. Dispite a base bonus of +1 this is a awesome weapon for high to mid level palidins. Espcially handy for demons because many can fly.
aelryinth 06-18-05, 02:31 AM	Sure the weapon would be +6. I think, what you really want to ask, would the weapon be EPIC for purposes of punching thru DR. My reply...are you wielding an Epic weapon? No. Then by RAW, no, it doesn't satisfy the condition, even if the enhancement bonus is +20. A Mystic Duellist, for example, wielding a +5 rapier, effectively has a weapon with a +10 Enhancement. It STILL is not an Epic Weapon. A lot of people will House Rule that a +6 bonus is effectively Epic vs the baned monster, of course. But it IS a House Rule. And it's much, much cheaper to make up two +4 swords, stack 6 bane effects on them, then to make a single +6 weapon, and be covered against just about anything you run into. ==Aelryinth
Bopple 06-18-05, 02:39 AM	A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Then effectively +6 weapons are to be considered to penetrate epic DR? Yes, I'd say so.
april151978 06-18-05, 03:45 AM	Then effectively +6 weapons are to be considered to penetrate epic DR? Yes, I'd say so. Not quite sure without my books handy, but I think for a weapon to be epic, it needs to have a base enchantment over +5, or total enchantments over +10... Epic Handbook would be the source, but it is not here for me to confirm this... :weep: Someone care to look this up?...
Mellowship Slinky 06-18-05, 04:12 AM	(oh except half-elves and half-orc they are affected by magical items as if they were both heritage, pretty fun huh? Picture the Orc double axes that are bane Humanoid-Human AND bane Humanoid-Elves for a half elf, not an appealing picture. or Elven bows Bane orc and Humans because poor relation of humans with the local elves...) Half orcs and Half elves are both treated as if they are pure-blooded orcs or elves for any magic item.
Greyman 06-18-05, 04:54 AM	If you have a +4 weapon, and you get the Bane enchantment to it, will the weapon act as a +6 weapon vs the bane creature?The reason I ask is because you can't have an actual +5 weapon (so says the DMG), so I wondered if this would make it only a +5 or not. But anyways, that's cool, +6 vs the bane creature it is :)Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. In addition to this they may have a special abilities that count as enhancement bonuses for the purpose of cost calculations. The total of this modified (pricing) enhancement cannot ecxeed +10. A +4 bane weapon is quite permisable and grants a +6 enhancement bonus to attacks a damage against the baned creature type, as well as dealing +2d6 extra points of damage. Indeed a +5 bane weapon would be possible, for a +7 enhancement bonus against the baned creatures. Here's a better one: A Bane of Evil Outsiders and a Bane of Chaotic Outsiders weapon hitting a demon. Do they stack?Nope. General stacking rules apply. Like as for Favoured Enemy bonuses against outsider subtypes, bane's enhancement bonuses against outsider subtypes do not stack. If you're going against demons it's better to have a holy weapon anyway - for the same price it grants the same extra damage (though not the increase to enhancement) and overcomes damage reduction too. Better make it from cold iron to be sure.
Vrellum 06-18-05, 10:29 AM	If you're going against demons it's better to have a holy weapon anyway - for the same price it grants the same extra damage (though not the increase to enhancement) and overcomes damage reduction too. Better make it from cold iron to be sure. Bane is cheaper (+1) than holy (+2). And bane grants an additional +2 to hit.
tarkin 06-18-05, 11:18 AM	re-read his post. He was not discussig Bane vs. Holy. Instead he was Discussing a +1 Bane Evil Outsider, Bane Chaotic Outsider weapon vs. +1 Holy weapon Net cost is the same, both grant +2d6 of damage, Holy grants DR penetration, the other has +2 to hit and damage. He was saying that Holy is the better deal, which would be true only if they had DR of around 10 or better in my opinion.
Lycanthromancer 06-18-05, 11:19 AM	Hmmm...I'd say that Holy would be the equivalent of Bane (Evil). That's what I meant...I hadn't had much sleep the previous night. Sorry, but I'm better now. :D
Vrellum 06-18-05, 11:49 AM	re-read his post. He was not discussig Bane vs. Holy. Instead he was Discussing a +1 Bane Evil Outsider, Bane Chaotic Outsider weapon vs. +1 Holy weapon Net cost is the same, both grant +2d6 of damage, Holy grants DR penetration, the other has +2 to hit and damage. He was saying that Holy is the better deal, which would be true only if they had DR of around 10 or better in my opinion. Whoops, sorry.
Greyman 06-18-05, 12:11 PM	M... True, the distinction is less at lower AC. With DR 5/good, or DR 5/good and cold iron, a bane weapon would be dealing out 3 less points than a holy weapon, but hitting slightly more often, but it depends on the demon's AC. If the DR were 5/good or cold iron, a bane weapon of that special material would have the edge. At higher DR, Holy is going to have the clear advantage, but that's still only better if you are focused on opposing deamons. A double bane weapon has the advantage of a wider target audience.
Greyman 06-18-05, 12:20 PM	So, what happens if you have a +5 Bane (Evil), Bane (Undead) weapon? How exactly would those stack against an evil undead (such as the Lich Queen, Vlaakith)? :plotting:Hmmm...I'd say that Holy would be the equivalent of Bane (Evil). That's what I meant...I hadn't had much sleep the previous night.Holy isn't quite the same as bane. It has a broader application (all evil creatures rather than just evil outsiders) and overcomes damage reduction as a good aligned weapon. Hence the +2 effective bonus cost rather than +1. However, yes, it would stack. A +5 holy bane undead weapon would have a +7 enhancement to attack and damage against evil undead and deal an extra +4d6 points of damage as well as overcoming any damage reduction against good.
Lycanthromancer 06-18-05, 01:07 PM	A +5 holy bane undead weapon would have a +7 enhancement to attack and damage against evil undead and deal an extra +4d6 points of damage as well as overcoming any damage reduction against good. In other words, the Vlaakith would be in for a world of pain. :D I hate the Lich Queen. :hoppingma :headexplo :hoppingma
Tenken 06-18-05, 06:44 PM	I hate the Lich Queen. :hoppingma :headexplo :hoppingma Kinda off topic here, but a lich is just an undead right? In the MM it says that to acquire the lich template, the creature change their type to undead. Just making sure, because I know my party's final enemy will be a lich. I'm preparing that +5 Holy and Bane (undead) weapon for it :)
aelryinth 06-18-05, 08:45 PM	Bane (chaotic outsider) and bane (evil outsider) will most definitely stack. Bane is untyped damage, and the effects are triggered by different items. If you bane (chaotic) TWICE...the effects won't stack. It's chaotic bane damage. There's a WoTC module with a dancing longsword, Bane (Lawful Out), Bane (evil outsider), Holy. Nasty devil slaying tool. Banes might make an enhancement weapon +6, but that doesn't make a weapon epic, anymore then a Small Longsword is actually a shortsword. An Epic weapon IS an Epic weapon...it could be +1 Vorpal Brilliant Holy and be Epic. It doesn't say +6/30 like it used to. Epic is actually MUCH more restrictive...which makes solars really nasty, eh? But, House-rule away. ==Aelryinth
Nephlite 06-18-05, 10:34 PM	Banes might make an enhancement weapon +6, but that doesn't make a weapon epic, anymore then a Small Longsword is actually a shortsword. An Epic weapon IS an Epic weapon...it could be +1 Vorpal Brilliant Holy and be Epic. It doesn't say +6/30 like it used to. Epic is actually MUCH more restrictive...which makes solars really nasty, eh? But, House-rule away. ==Aelryinth Mechanically a Small longsword is equivalent to a longsword. Epic requires +6 enhancement to hit/damage. That is it! +1 Vorpol Brillant Holy isn't epic because the bonus isn't Epic! You have just +1 hit/damage not +6. If Bane make an enhancement weapon +6 than it is Epic according to what Epic is for DR.
aelryinth 06-19-05, 12:45 AM	By your definition, throwing a Bane(monster) spell on a +4 weapon would allow it to punch thru Epic DR. Nah. An Epic weapon IS an Epic weapon...not a +6 enhanced weapon, temporarily or no. But, as I said, house rule away. ==Aelryinth
Bopple 06-19-05, 07:16 AM	I'll repeat it; A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus.
Nephlite 06-19-05, 10:00 AM	I'll repeat it; And as he said, "it could be +1 Vorpal Brilliant Holy" that weapon doesn't have an Epic-like bonus. Sure it has a high bonus, but not Epic for DR.
Rulebook 06-19-05, 10:26 AM	it dosent say "it gets a +2 bane bonus" or anything, it says "its effective enhancement bonus is +2 higher" which means a +4 bane weapon would indeed have a +6 enhancement bonus vs its bane enemy. but this only counts for enhancement bonuses, not total enhancements. it still seems that people are confusing the two. only enhancement bonus can cut epic DR, not total enhancements. total enhancements are for cost purposes only. bane, keen, flaming and the like do not increase the enhancement bonus (and subsequently not the hardness/hp of the item either). a +1 bane(x8) sword is still a +1 sword for purposes of other monsters or sunder attempts. but if any monster should (theoretically) hit every single bane requirement it'd jump to a +3 (it only states +2 higher than normal, not an unamed +2 bonus) and hit for like an extra 16d6 or something. if im demon hunting i'd still rather just have a holy weapon though.
Nephlite 06-19-05, 10:34 AM	it dosent say "it gets a +2 bane bonus" or anything, it says "its effective enhancement bonus is +2 higher" which means a +4 bane weapon would indeed have a +6 enhancement bonus vs its bane enemy. but this only counts for enhancement bonuses, not total enhancements. it still seems that people are confusing the two. only enhancement bonus can cut epic DR, not total enhancements. total enhancements are for cost purposes only. bane, keen, flaming and the like do not increase the enhancement bonus (and subsequently not the hardness/hp of the item either). a +1 bane(x8) sword is still a +1 sword for purposes of other monsters or sunder attempts. but if any monster should (theoretically) hit every single bane requirement it'd jump to a +3 (it only states +2 higher than normal, not an unamed +2 bonus) and hit for like an extra 16d6 or something. if im demon hunting i'd still rather just have a holy weapon though. What kind of monster has 8 types in theory? I could give subtypes like 1/2 Dragon, 1/2 Fiend, 1/2 Ogre,1/2 Construct to a humaniod But than you got dragon, outsider, giant, construct human. That is at most 10d6 if you got every bane. How could you get 16d6 in theory?
Rulebook 06-19-05, 10:37 AM	okay... do you understand the concept of the term Theory? in THEORY you could create such a monster. in THEORY such monsters could fight your adventurer. in THEORY he could have had enough foresight to create such a weapon in anticipation. have any of these things ACTUALLY occured? no. but COULD they concievably, and i mean even stretching it with DM fiat... COULD they exist? yes. thats what THEORY means. sheesh. i figured it just spoke for itself without having to explain it.
primemover003 06-19-05, 11:11 AM	I'm with Aelryinth on this. A +4 Bane weapon has an adjusted +6 bonus, but does not count as an Epic weapon. It takes more than just +6 to make a weapon Epic, namely being crafted by an Epic character with the Epic Arms and Armor item creation feat. The +5 Bane (evil outsider) weapon will be a force to reckon with against any fiend up to Balors and Pit fiends, but Archduke Dispater or Graz'zt are going to laugh against it. You can still use the weapon and it'll help more than another weapon against this level of evil, but don't expect it to cut like a hot knife through butter. Not gonna happen.