5 foot step and cast [Archive] - Wizards Community

5 foot step and cast [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Snooze
09-04-04, 03:56 AM I've always disliked the "5-foot step and cast" rule, and it's sister the "5-foot step and use ranged weapon" rule. What are your thoughts on this rule, and how do you counter it? Assuming there's room on the battlefield (and there usually is) how do you prevent someone from using this tactic to cast spells without drawing attacks of opportunity?
Phantom Lord
09-04-04, 04:13 AM Well, you could always do like my old DM did, and just enforce the AoO anyway, even after the 5-foot step. Explain it as only logical since really the battle is all moving at once, so taking 5' and casting at the same time your opponent takes 5' and attacks is really the only way to look at things, not your move then his move.
Kheldren
09-04-04, 06:53 AM There was a good thread on this - but I do not know where it is now - sorry.

You say that it is silly to allow the wizard (or whatver) to take a 5' step clear and cast a spell. The person (s)he is fighting will just follow up in real life.
True.
But why did the wizard stand there when the fighter charged him?
To disallow the 5' step unbalances the system - it is there for balance purposes. Realistically to give an AoO on that, you would have to allow the wizard to back away his movement rate when the fighter attempted to charge at the start of the fight - result - the fighter never gets to attack in the first place...

Yes wizards (etc) have concentration checks when casting defensively - but that is for when you have got them pinned - archers don't have this luxury so you are heavily penalising them for a rule inserted for game balance.

If anyone can post a link to the old thread please do so :)
Fixxxer
09-04-04, 12:41 PM Quick answer: I don't prevent someone from using this valid tactic to avoid provoking an AoO. The fact of the matter is that in half the situations this comes up in, it doesn't end up in the PC's favor. You wizard and my fighter square off. After the fighter closes to melee distance, your wizard takes a 5ft step backwards and casts his spell. Ouch. Now my fighter takes a 5ft step forwards and unloads with a full attack. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. In the end, how much did taking a 5ft step really help the PC?
haste9
09-04-04, 06:53 PM Remember how important not moving can be in D&D...or I should say, rather, how important it is to be moving. Sometimes, the wizard, sorc, cleric, etc. or archer has to stay where he is at in order to avoid some other calamity. Sometimes the opposite.

For example:

We had our wizard nearly backed into a corner and all he could do was fail, fail, and marginally pass his concentration checks. It took some serious courage and some teamwork from our rogue and barbarian PCs to get him out of that one. And, to top it all off, the cleric had to heal everyone up afterwards. Minotaurs in herds are tough. If the wizard hadn't moved so close to the wall, he would have never been in that position and we all suffered because of it. Had he been thinking, he would have cast his dimension door and got the heck out of there before the minotaurs boxed him in. He tried that a round too late and lost the spell. Live and learn.
Sensei Gith
09-04-04, 06:59 PM I keep the cheese out by allowing players to take 5-foot steps out of turn. If a player ends their turn without taking their full movement and without taking a 5-foot step, they can take a 5-foot step at any point before their next turn. If the step'n'cast tactic had been intended by the game designers, they wouldn't have put in an almost-useless defensive casting system.
BW0222
09-04-04, 08:43 PM The solutions to this are easy if an opponent is taking 5' steps all the time and casting/range attacking...

a) Ready a move action. i.e. Move up in front of them (move equivalent action) and then ready an action to "move next to them when they move." He takes a 5' step. Your action goes off and you move next to him (or behind him) and you get your AoO being next to him as he casts.

If you are already next to him (haven't moved), then ready an attack. He takes a 5' step and start casting, your readied action goes off -- you take your own 5' step and attack, and then gain the AoO as he casts since you are next to him.

b) Grappling/Trip of other attacks. Typically he doesn't have a melee weapon if he is casting or using ranged weapons, so this is a lot easier.

c) Attack (or ready an attack) against his ranged weapon. Sunder. Again no AoO.

d) Attack (or ready an attack) against his spell components and or focus.

e) Ready a grapple or trip attack. S spell fails automatically when grappled.

f) Corner him or move around him such that the 5' step takes him into or closer to trouble (i.e. your allies). A lot of times a wizard won't 5' step if it brings him away from his party and out into the middle of the battle field.

g) Ask for help. Two folks can easily make it very difficult for a caster to 5' step and get no AoO.

h) Pull out a reach weapon - preferably one which threatens both 5' and 10'.

However, eventually, they start casting defensively. Some of the above tactics still help with this one too.

Thanks,

Brett
Sensei Gith
09-04-04, 09:34 PM Most of those limit the attacker to one attack instead of a full attack. Many are worse than useless if the caster picks up and moves.

Grappling and trip are fine, but they don't fix the underlying problem.

Cornering him is more difficult than it sounds, since a 5-foot step can take you back and across.

A reach weapon lets them step close to you instead of farther away.
Fixxxer
09-04-04, 09:36 PM A reach weapon lets them step close to you instead of farther away.

...unless it happens to be a spiked chain or a duom.
Sensei Gith
09-04-04, 10:35 PM Possible, but again, that doesn't solve the core problem.
allenchan
09-04-04, 10:50 PM Doesn't really strike me as a problem, it's a fair solution, I can see a wizard ducking away and twisting back a few feet and then rising up with hands spread and *BAMF*.

And if you use Eberron/Action Points you can use them to follow a 5' step so they cant get away.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Snooze 09-04-04, 03:56 AM	I've always disliked the "5-foot step and cast" rule, and it's sister the "5-foot step and use ranged weapon" rule. What are your thoughts on this rule, and how do you counter it? Assuming there's room on the battlefield (and there usually is) how do you prevent someone from using this tactic to cast spells without drawing attacks of opportunity?
Phantom Lord 09-04-04, 04:13 AM	Well, you could always do like my old DM did, and just enforce the AoO anyway, even after the 5-foot step. Explain it as only logical since really the battle is all moving at once, so taking 5' and casting at the same time your opponent takes 5' and attacks is really the only way to look at things, not your move then his move.
Kheldren 09-04-04, 06:53 AM	There was a good thread on this - but I do not know where it is now - sorry. You say that it is silly to allow the wizard (or whatver) to take a 5' step clear and cast a spell. The person (s)he is fighting will just follow up in real life. True. But why did the wizard stand there when the fighter charged him? To disallow the 5' step unbalances the system - it is there for balance purposes. Realistically to give an AoO on that, you would have to allow the wizard to back away his movement rate when the fighter attempted to charge at the start of the fight - result - the fighter never gets to attack in the first place... Yes wizards (etc) have concentration checks when casting defensively - but that is for when you have got them pinned - archers don't have this luxury so you are heavily penalising them for a rule inserted for game balance. If anyone can post a link to the old thread please do so :)
Fixxxer 09-04-04, 12:41 PM	Quick answer: I don't prevent someone from using this valid tactic to avoid provoking an AoO. The fact of the matter is that in half the situations this comes up in, it doesn't end up in the PC's favor. You wizard and my fighter square off. After the fighter closes to melee distance, your wizard takes a 5ft step backwards and casts his spell. Ouch. Now my fighter takes a 5ft step forwards and unloads with a full attack. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. In the end, how much did taking a 5ft step really help the PC?
haste9 09-04-04, 06:53 PM	Remember how important not moving can be in D&D...or I should say, rather, how important it is to be moving. Sometimes, the wizard, sorc, cleric, etc. or archer has to stay where he is at in order to avoid some other calamity. Sometimes the opposite. For example: We had our wizard nearly backed into a corner and all he could do was fail, fail, and marginally pass his concentration checks. It took some serious courage and some teamwork from our rogue and barbarian PCs to get him out of that one. And, to top it all off, the cleric had to heal everyone up afterwards. Minotaurs in herds are tough. If the wizard hadn't moved so close to the wall, he would have never been in that position and we all suffered because of it. Had he been thinking, he would have cast his dimension door and got the heck out of there before the minotaurs boxed him in. He tried that a round too late and lost the spell. Live and learn.
Sensei Gith 09-04-04, 06:59 PM	I keep the cheese out by allowing players to take 5-foot steps out of turn. If a player ends their turn without taking their full movement and without taking a 5-foot step, they can take a 5-foot step at any point before their next turn. If the step'n'cast tactic had been intended by the game designers, they wouldn't have put in an almost-useless defensive casting system.
BW0222 09-04-04, 08:43 PM	The solutions to this are easy if an opponent is taking 5' steps all the time and casting/range attacking... a) Ready a move action. i.e. Move up in front of them (move equivalent action) and then ready an action to "move next to them when they move." He takes a 5' step. Your action goes off and you move next to him (or behind him) and you get your AoO being next to him as he casts. If you are already next to him (haven't moved), then ready an attack. He takes a 5' step and start casting, your readied action goes off -- you take your own 5' step and attack, and then gain the AoO as he casts since you are next to him. b) Grappling/Trip of other attacks. Typically he doesn't have a melee weapon if he is casting or using ranged weapons, so this is a lot easier. c) Attack (or ready an attack) against his ranged weapon. Sunder. Again no AoO. d) Attack (or ready an attack) against his spell components and or focus. e) Ready a grapple or trip attack. S spell fails automatically when grappled. f) Corner him or move around him such that the 5' step takes him into or closer to trouble (i.e. your allies). A lot of times a wizard won't 5' step if it brings him away from his party and out into the middle of the battle field. g) Ask for help. Two folks can easily make it very difficult for a caster to 5' step and get no AoO. h) Pull out a reach weapon - preferably one which threatens both 5' and 10'. However, eventually, they start casting defensively. Some of the above tactics still help with this one too. Thanks, Brett
Sensei Gith 09-04-04, 09:34 PM	Most of those limit the attacker to one attack instead of a full attack. Many are worse than useless if the caster picks up and moves. Grappling and trip are fine, but they don't fix the underlying problem. Cornering him is more difficult than it sounds, since a 5-foot step can take you back and across. A reach weapon lets them step close to you instead of farther away.
Fixxxer 09-04-04, 09:36 PM	A reach weapon lets them step close to you instead of farther away. ...unless it happens to be a spiked chain or a duom.
Sensei Gith 09-04-04, 10:35 PM	Possible, but again, that doesn't solve the core problem.
allenchan 09-04-04, 10:50 PM	Doesn't really strike me as a problem, it's a fair solution, I can see a wizard ducking away and twisting back a few feet and then rising up with hands spread and BAMF. And if you use Eberron/Action Points you can use them to follow a 5' step so they cant get away.