5 foot step during surprise [Archive] - Wizards Community

5 foot step during surprise [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dorpond
10-06-04, 10:04 AM OK,

The party turns a corner and faces a Minotaur. The DM rolls for a surprise and the party wins. For their surprise, the party wants to shoot an arrow and then move 5' around the corner so the Minotaur cannot charge (effectively they are around the corner now out of sight).

Can they do this? Can they move 5' after their action during a surpise round?

A 5' step is a "No Action".

I always though of a surprise round as only being able to do one thing but after reading closely, I am uncertain now.

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks
tarkin
10-06-04, 10:46 AM Yes, you are allowed to take a 5ft step in a surprise round as part of your attack.

P.S. Techinally the 5ft step is PART of either your Standard Action or Full Round Action, not a "no action". The only reason this is important is you can not take it except on your turn, and you are allowed to take unlimited "no actions" on some one elses turn.
jaspercrey
10-06-04, 02:50 PM "roll for surprise"?

Haven't heard that since 2nd edition AD&D!
FitzNighteyes
10-06-04, 03:15 PM Maybe it's a spot/listen check.
dorpond
10-06-04, 03:57 PM Maybe it's a spot/listen check.

"Roll a Surprise" was a shortcut way of saying 2 paragraphs worth of non-topic related information.

Made for less reading on your behalf and less typing on my mine but yet I find myself typing just as much anyway and now you have to read my explaination which really saved no time or space anyway.

:)

Thanks Tarkin for making the 5' step clearer.
masterofmayhem
10-06-04, 07:34 PM "roll for surprise"?

Haven't heard that since 2nd edition AD&D!
That's what my DM does. My +20 to spot and listen helps not at all . . . :nonono:
FitzNighteyes
10-06-04, 07:55 PM Find a copy of the 3e DMG (not the revised version), just borrow it if you can. Lookup encounters and spotting, which has specific DCs for noticing your opponents (using Spot checks) at a given encounter distance, and make a copy of it. Give it to your DM.
masterofmayhem
10-06-04, 11:05 PM Thanks, but we (and he) fully know of how the system works (should work). He prefers the old way, though. He only does it, say, 50% of the time, though.
Dragonspirit
10-11-04, 05:28 PM That DM is a bad, bad man.

Because, as we all know, a good spot or listen should ensure that you can NEVER be caught off guard. Skill checks are suppose to be absolute and in stone! You should be able to rely on them as a crutch instead of having to role play the situation.

What's next, is he going to modify treasure amounts to less than the guide COMMANDS him to give? :D
masterofmayhem
10-11-04, 07:52 PM What's next, is he going to modify treasure amounts to less than the guide COMMANDS him to give? :D
Why, he just might, that evil #&^$*$#! :mad:

That DM is a bad, bad man.

I totally agree!!

Uhh . . . notice the total lack of any negative connotation towards your person in my posts? (Please don't kill me off . . . again. :mymy: ) ;)
FitzNighteyes
10-12-04, 01:05 AM That DM is a bad, bad man.I wouldn't want to play with you.

Because, as we all know, a good spot or listen should ensure that you can NEVER be caught off guard. Skill checks are suppose to be absolute and in stone! You should be able to rely on them as a crutch instead of having to role play the situation.That's what circumstance modifiers are for. However, a skilled character should get a benefit out of the fact that he is skilled at something. You should be able to role-play based on your characters skills, instead of having to rely on the crutch of making things up and defending it incorrectly as role-playing.

Edit: Dragonspirit, you might want to actually start using the rules in this case, since they are definately superior to the 2ed fixed chance of surprise.
masterofmayhem
10-12-04, 06:44 PM That DM is a bad, bad man.
I wouldn't want to play with him.

FitzNighteyes, you may not have realized this from what I said in my post, but Dragonspirit is my DM . . . :angel:
rijeagle
10-15-04, 11:27 AM Yes, you are allowed to take a 5ft step in a surprise round as part of your attack.

P.S. Techinally the 5ft step is PART of either your Standard Action or Full Round Action, not a "no action". The only reason this is important is you can not take it except on your turn, and you are allowed to take unlimited "no actions" on some one elses turn.

Ok, as I read this, am I to infer that a No Action action (i.e. speaking, 5 ft step, etc.) can be used during another's turn, or did I completely missed the point?

Is this a house rule?

I had thought all actions had to be done on your turn?

Help me here - No Actions can be used on other pc's turn???

*edited for clarity
tarkin
10-15-04, 12:56 PM 1) You are definitely allowed to Speak outside of your turn.

2) You are allowed to take an AoO outside of your turn.

3) You are also allowed to do anything that is not an action outside of your turn (Breathing, sleeping, make a saving throw, for example)

4) I have never heard of anyone making any effecitve use of an "not an action", except for those listed as related to a special effect (the free attempt to trip someone against someone that tried to trip you for example).

5) I am pretty sure that Speaking is actually a "Free Action", instead of being "Not an action".

6) Using official WoTC rules, you are allowed to do certain "Free Actions", such as cast FeatherFall, Speak, etc. outside of your turn. These are specific exceptions to the general rule that Free Actions must be done on your turn.
CruelDM
10-15-04, 05:13 PM Dorpond, to answer your question, yes, the group (those that were not surprised, anyway) can make 1 melee or ranged attack and move 5 feet. Looking at the surprise round rules it states that in the surprise round anyone able to act can take 1 standard action. Looking at the 5 foot step rule (pg144 PH) we see that in any round you do not move you can take a 5 foot step (unless movement is hampered by terrain).

Hope this clears it up for you.
Nom
10-16-04, 05:06 AM Note that a 5 ft. step back around the corner may not prevent a charge. Assuming that you were completely out (enemy had no cover) when you attacked, your 5 ft. step would leave at least one corner of your square visible. The enemy can then charge to the diagonal and attack from there (albeit with cover).

Large creatures may even be able to attack without cover, depending on angles.
rijeagle
10-17-04, 01:21 AM 6) Using official WoTC rules, you are allowed to do certain "Free Actions", such as cast FeatherFall, Speak, etc. outside of your turn. These are specific exceptions to the general rule that Free Actions must be done on your turn.

Speak and Feather Fall I got, as well as AoOs and trip, disarm responses.
Soooooooo, let me play the idiot for a moment, what else would the "etc." be, concerning "Free Actions" that could be done outside of your turn?

Help me out here, please. I've read the PHB and DMG a number of times, but as most people, small things slip by, so any clarifications would be a big boon.

Gracias, Merci, Graci, Thanks

**edited for clarity**

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dorpond 10-06-04, 10:04 AM	OK, The party turns a corner and faces a Minotaur. The DM rolls for a surprise and the party wins. For their surprise, the party wants to shoot an arrow and then move 5' around the corner so the Minotaur cannot charge (effectively they are around the corner now out of sight). Can they do this? Can they move 5' after their action during a surpise round? A 5' step is a "No Action". I always though of a surprise round as only being able to do one thing but after reading closely, I am uncertain now. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks
tarkin 10-06-04, 10:46 AM	Yes, you are allowed to take a 5ft step in a surprise round as part of your attack. P.S. Techinally the 5ft step is PART of either your Standard Action or Full Round Action, not a "no action". The only reason this is important is you can not take it except on your turn, and you are allowed to take unlimited "no actions" on some one elses turn.
jaspercrey 10-06-04, 02:50 PM	"roll for surprise"? Haven't heard that since 2nd edition AD&D!
FitzNighteyes 10-06-04, 03:15 PM	Maybe it's a spot/listen check.
dorpond 10-06-04, 03:57 PM	Maybe it's a spot/listen check. "Roll a Surprise" was a shortcut way of saying 2 paragraphs worth of non-topic related information. Made for less reading on your behalf and less typing on my mine but yet I find myself typing just as much anyway and now you have to read my explaination which really saved no time or space anyway. :) Thanks Tarkin for making the 5' step clearer.
masterofmayhem 10-06-04, 07:34 PM	"roll for surprise"? Haven't heard that since 2nd edition AD&D! That's what my DM does. My +20 to spot and listen helps not at all . . . :nonono:
FitzNighteyes 10-06-04, 07:55 PM	Find a copy of the 3e DMG (not the revised version), just borrow it if you can. Lookup encounters and spotting, which has specific DCs for noticing your opponents (using Spot checks) at a given encounter distance, and make a copy of it. Give it to your DM.
masterofmayhem 10-06-04, 11:05 PM	Thanks, but we (and he) fully know of how the system works (should work). He prefers the old way, though. He only does it, say, 50% of the time, though.
Dragonspirit 10-11-04, 05:28 PM	That DM is a bad, bad man. Because, as we all know, a good spot or listen should ensure that you can NEVER be caught off guard. Skill checks are suppose to be absolute and in stone! You should be able to rely on them as a crutch instead of having to role play the situation. What's next, is he going to modify treasure amounts to less than the guide COMMANDS him to give? :D
masterofmayhem 10-11-04, 07:52 PM	What's next, is he going to modify treasure amounts to less than the guide COMMANDS him to give? :D Why, he just might, that evil #&^$*$#! :mad: That DM is a bad, bad man. I totally agree!! Uhh . . . notice the total lack of any negative connotation towards your person in my posts? (Please don't kill me off . . . again. :mymy: ) ;)
FitzNighteyes 10-12-04, 01:05 AM	That DM is a bad, bad man.I wouldn't want to play with you. Because, as we all know, a good spot or listen should ensure that you can NEVER be caught off guard. Skill checks are suppose to be absolute and in stone! You should be able to rely on them as a crutch instead of having to role play the situation.That's what circumstance modifiers are for. However, a skilled character should get a benefit out of the fact that he is skilled at something. You should be able to role-play based on your characters skills, instead of having to rely on the crutch of making things up and defending it incorrectly as role-playing. Edit: Dragonspirit, you might want to actually start using the rules in this case, since they are definately superior to the 2ed fixed chance of surprise.
masterofmayhem 10-12-04, 06:44 PM	That DM is a bad, bad man. I wouldn't want to play with him. FitzNighteyes, you may not have realized this from what I said in my post, but Dragonspirit is my DM . . . :angel:
rijeagle 10-15-04, 11:27 AM	Yes, you are allowed to take a 5ft step in a surprise round as part of your attack. P.S. Techinally the 5ft step is PART of either your Standard Action or Full Round Action, not a "no action". The only reason this is important is you can not take it except on your turn, and you are allowed to take unlimited "no actions" on some one elses turn. Ok, as I read this, am I to infer that a No Action action (i.e. speaking, 5 ft step, etc.) can be used during another's turn, or did I completely missed the point? Is this a house rule? I had thought all actions had to be done on your turn? Help me here - No Actions can be used on other pc's turn??? *edited for clarity
tarkin 10-15-04, 12:56 PM	1) You are definitely allowed to Speak outside of your turn. 2) You are allowed to take an AoO outside of your turn. 3) You are also allowed to do anything that is not an action outside of your turn (Breathing, sleeping, make a saving throw, for example) 4) I have never heard of anyone making any effecitve use of an "not an action", except for those listed as related to a special effect (the free attempt to trip someone against someone that tried to trip you for example). 5) I am pretty sure that Speaking is actually a "Free Action", instead of being "Not an action". 6) Using official WoTC rules, you are allowed to do certain "Free Actions", such as cast FeatherFall, Speak, etc. outside of your turn. These are specific exceptions to the general rule that Free Actions must be done on your turn.
CruelDM 10-15-04, 05:13 PM	Dorpond, to answer your question, yes, the group (those that were not surprised, anyway) can make 1 melee or ranged attack and move 5 feet. Looking at the surprise round rules it states that in the surprise round anyone able to act can take 1 standard action. Looking at the 5 foot step rule (pg144 PH) we see that in any round you do not move you can take a 5 foot step (unless movement is hampered by terrain). Hope this clears it up for you.
Nom 10-16-04, 05:06 AM	Note that a 5 ft. step back around the corner may not prevent a charge. Assuming that you were completely out (enemy had no cover) when you attacked, your 5 ft. step would leave at least one corner of your square visible. The enemy can then charge to the diagonal and attack from there (albeit with cover). Large creatures may even be able to attack without cover, depending on angles.
rijeagle 10-17-04, 01:21 AM	6) Using official WoTC rules, you are allowed to do certain "Free Actions", such as cast FeatherFall, Speak, etc. outside of your turn. These are specific exceptions to the general rule that Free Actions must be done on your turn. Speak and Feather Fall I got, as well as AoOs and trip, disarm responses. Soooooooo, let me play the idiot for a moment, what else would the "etc." be, concerning "Free Actions" that could be done outside of your turn? Help me out here, please. I've read the PHB and DMG a number of times, but as most people, small things slip by, so any clarifications would be a big boon. Gracias, Merci, Graci, Thanks edited for clarity