5 Foot Step [Archive] - Wizards Community

5 Foot Step [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Delfast
08-31-07, 02:26 PM My DM has alter an important rule I want to know what you think.

In combat you can´t use the five foot step.

Im not agree to this. you? and why? please. :mad:
Johnny_Angel
08-31-07, 02:30 PM I suggest that you create a monk and use a reach weapon. :devil:

On a more serious note...I don't agree with his ruling, but it's his game. If I were the DM, I would not do that. If I were one of the players, I would learn to deal with it; just make sure that monsters and opponents follow the same rules.
tarkin
08-31-07, 02:34 PM Your DM is rather foolish.

This is what you do.

1. Get a high speed (Boots of springing and Striding)

2. Get a Spiked chain.

3. Get Combat Reflexes

4. Get Improved Trip.

5. Drink a potion of Enlarge Person if neccessary.

Anyone without a bow gets near you, take your AoO on them and trip them.

Use your action to move 10ft away from them.

Repeate until player gives up or dies. (he physically can NOT attack you EVER)

If anyone with a bow tries to attack, you, get in reach range and trip him.

Oh yeah, get Disarm also. It can also do wonders.
Delfast
08-31-07, 02:41 PM I suggest that you create a monk and use a reach weapon. :devil:

On a more serious note...I don't agree with his ruling, but it's his game. If I were the DM, I would not do that. If I were one of the players, I would learn to deal with it; just make sure that monsters and opponents follow the same rules.

No, I have a ranger on that party Lvl 2.
But I dont agree because it will come the day that whe have to face a creature with 15 of reach that day the party will be over im sure of it.
Tedronai
08-31-07, 02:50 PM Has the DM given any particular logic behind his elimination of one of the most fundamental strategies of melee combat?
RobbyPants
08-31-07, 03:21 PM Has the DM given any particular logic behind his elimination of one of the most fundamental strategies of melee combat?
Yeah, it makes me wonder. Is this some knee-jerk reaction to more bookkeeping during combat? As Tarkin pointed out, it's not to tough to abuse the hell out of this system. In fact, the lack of a 5 foot step is much easier to exploit than the 5 foot step itself.
Howie23
08-31-07, 04:01 PM My DM has alter an important rule I want to know what you think.

In combat you can´t use the five foot step.

Im not agree to this. you? and why? please. :mad:

It's really a necessary part of the tactical system. Is he eliminating AoO for a move?

Without knowing him, and without casting aspirsions, I wouldn't be surprised if he's disallowing 5' steps because he doesn't understand them.

It makes a huge difference for reach weapons, large creatures, spellcasting, sneak attacking, tactical use of terrain, etc.
akinckillerchris
09-01-07, 09:20 AM just take the winged templates of get the winged boots or have fly cast on you and take 5 foot fly's not steps!!!! MWA HAHAHHAHA he didnt dis allow them!
Steevo
09-01-07, 03:12 PM No, I have a ranger on that party Lvl 2.
But I dont agree because it will come the day that whe have to face a creature with 15 of reach that day the party will be over im sure of it.

I don't personally agree with this ruling, since the 5' step basically represents your ability to sidestep around the field of battle while keeping your eyes on the enemy, but as others have said, the DM has the right to do silly things like this if he's so inclined.

Regarding the need to face creatures with reach, all you need is one tank character with a high AC who's willing to charge into melee combat. Most monsters don't have combat reflexes, which means after the first AoO attempt, everyone else can close to melee range in relative safety. Likewise if someone needs to retreat. Just have someone else pull some AoO-provoking shenanigans first to draw the creature's fire, then you can run away.

You could also stock up on potions of Enlarge Person and start dishing out to monsters who can't 5' step anymore either.

Ranged characters probably won't care too much, although it will be annoying now and then when they need the extra 5' to get in range.
Tempest Stormwind
09-01-07, 03:34 PM Not to mention that without the 5-foot-step, full attacks become almost impossible to sustain. Your warriors will be as effective in combat at level 20 as they are at level 1. (Exception: ToB warriors, who don't need the full attack as intensely.)

Now, it is possible to have a d20 game without the 5-foot step. Star Wars Saga has that, for instance, but it also has the following: Add your character level to your damage rolls, charge as a standard action, withdraw as a move action, Spring Attack combined with Shot on the Run as a first-tier feat, a subtle emphasis on ranged attacks, and -- importantly -- a hard limit on the number of attacks per round. (By default, you can only make one attack per round, EVER. You can get more if you're fighting with two weapons (which costs three feats to remove the penalty) or if you take the Double Attack / Triple Attack feats. Rapid Shot and burst fire weapons and the like don't add more attacks, they add extra damage dice.)

With all of those changes, the 5' step wasn't required. However, those *are* pretty substantial changes, and without changes of that magnitude, the removal of the 5' step ends up hosing you.
Tedronai
09-01-07, 03:40 PM I don't personally agree with this ruling, since the 5' step basically represents your ability to sidestep around the field of battle while keeping your eyes on the enemy, but as others have said, the DM has the right to do silly things like this if he's so inclined.

Regarding the need to face creatures with reach, all you need is one tank character with a high AC who's willing to charge into melee combat. Most monsters don't have combat reflexes, which means after the first AoO attempt, everyone else can close to melee range in relative safety. Likewise if someone needs to retreat. Just have someone else pull some AoO-provoking shenanigans first to draw the creature's fire, then you can run away.

You could also stock up on potions of Enlarge Person and start dishing out to monsters who can't 5' step anymore either.

Ranged characters probably won't care too much, although it will be annoying now and then when they need the extra 5' to get in range.

Or to 5' out if they're caught off guard. Same goes for the caster, who also sometimes 5' in to deliver a devastating touch spell to a larger creature
Nom
09-03-07, 07:56 AM In combat you can´t use the five foot step.Why the "in combat" qualifier? That's what the 5 ft. step is for. or did he simply remove it altogether?
Molot
09-03-07, 09:07 AM In someone's signature I've seen beautiful answer for that ;)
It was like this (I don't remember wording):

What DM says, goes. If DM says stupid things, his players goes as well.

And alike:
Rule 0: DM can change anything.
Rule 0.5: The fact he can don't mean he should.

And seriously - my DM "removed" 5' step too, but in a different way - all motion is based on descriptions and trust (our to him, his to us), not rules and measurement. The total effect, however, is as if we had The Step ;)

If you cannot exploit lack of a step (due to low level and already chosen classes & feats you may have a problem), then talk to DM, and consider a change on DM's chair if talk will not help.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Delfast 08-31-07, 02:26 PM	My DM has alter an important rule I want to know what you think. In combat you can´t use the five foot step. Im not agree to this. you? and why? please. :mad:
Johnny_Angel 08-31-07, 02:30 PM	I suggest that you create a monk and use a reach weapon. :devil: On a more serious note...I don't agree with his ruling, but it's his game. If I were the DM, I would not do that. If I were one of the players, I would learn to deal with it; just make sure that monsters and opponents follow the same rules.
tarkin 08-31-07, 02:34 PM	Your DM is rather foolish. This is what you do. 1. Get a high speed (Boots of springing and Striding) 2. Get a Spiked chain. 3. Get Combat Reflexes 4. Get Improved Trip. 5. Drink a potion of Enlarge Person if neccessary. Anyone without a bow gets near you, take your AoO on them and trip them. Use your action to move 10ft away from them. Repeate until player gives up or dies. (he physically can NOT attack you EVER) If anyone with a bow tries to attack, you, get in reach range and trip him. Oh yeah, get Disarm also. It can also do wonders.
Delfast 08-31-07, 02:41 PM	I suggest that you create a monk and use a reach weapon. :devil: On a more serious note...I don't agree with his ruling, but it's his game. If I were the DM, I would not do that. If I were one of the players, I would learn to deal with it; just make sure that monsters and opponents follow the same rules. No, I have a ranger on that party Lvl 2. But I dont agree because it will come the day that whe have to face a creature with 15 of reach that day the party will be over im sure of it.
Tedronai 08-31-07, 02:50 PM	Has the DM given any particular logic behind his elimination of one of the most fundamental strategies of melee combat?
RobbyPants 08-31-07, 03:21 PM	Has the DM given any particular logic behind his elimination of one of the most fundamental strategies of melee combat? Yeah, it makes me wonder. Is this some knee-jerk reaction to more bookkeeping during combat? As Tarkin pointed out, it's not to tough to abuse the hell out of this system. In fact, the lack of a 5 foot step is much easier to exploit than the 5 foot step itself.
Howie23 08-31-07, 04:01 PM	My DM has alter an important rule I want to know what you think. In combat you can´t use the five foot step. Im not agree to this. you? and why? please. :mad: It's really a necessary part of the tactical system. Is he eliminating AoO for a move? Without knowing him, and without casting aspirsions, I wouldn't be surprised if he's disallowing 5' steps because he doesn't understand them. It makes a huge difference for reach weapons, large creatures, spellcasting, sneak attacking, tactical use of terrain, etc.
akinckillerchris 09-01-07, 09:20 AM	just take the winged templates of get the winged boots or have fly cast on you and take 5 foot fly's not steps!!!! MWA HAHAHHAHA he didnt dis allow them!
Steevo 09-01-07, 03:12 PM	No, I have a ranger on that party Lvl 2. But I dont agree because it will come the day that whe have to face a creature with 15 of reach that day the party will be over im sure of it. I don't personally agree with this ruling, since the 5' step basically represents your ability to sidestep around the field of battle while keeping your eyes on the enemy, but as others have said, the DM has the right to do silly things like this if he's so inclined. Regarding the need to face creatures with reach, all you need is one tank character with a high AC who's willing to charge into melee combat. Most monsters don't have combat reflexes, which means after the first AoO attempt, everyone else can close to melee range in relative safety. Likewise if someone needs to retreat. Just have someone else pull some AoO-provoking shenanigans first to draw the creature's fire, then you can run away. You could also stock up on potions of Enlarge Person and start dishing out to monsters who can't 5' step anymore either. Ranged characters probably won't care too much, although it will be annoying now and then when they need the extra 5' to get in range.
Tempest Stormwind 09-01-07, 03:34 PM	Not to mention that without the 5-foot-step, full attacks become almost impossible to sustain. Your warriors will be as effective in combat at level 20 as they are at level 1. (Exception: ToB warriors, who don't need the full attack as intensely.) Now, it is possible to have a d20 game without the 5-foot step. Star Wars Saga has that, for instance, but it also has the following: Add your character level to your damage rolls, charge as a standard action, withdraw as a move action, Spring Attack combined with Shot on the Run as a first-tier feat, a subtle emphasis on ranged attacks, and -- importantly -- a hard limit on the number of attacks per round. (By default, you can only make one attack per round, EVER. You can get more if you're fighting with two weapons (which costs three feats to remove the penalty) or if you take the Double Attack / Triple Attack feats. Rapid Shot and burst fire weapons and the like don't add more attacks, they add extra damage dice.) With all of those changes, the 5' step wasn't required. However, those are pretty substantial changes, and without changes of that magnitude, the removal of the 5' step ends up hosing you.
Tedronai 09-01-07, 03:40 PM	I don't personally agree with this ruling, since the 5' step basically represents your ability to sidestep around the field of battle while keeping your eyes on the enemy, but as others have said, the DM has the right to do silly things like this if he's so inclined. Regarding the need to face creatures with reach, all you need is one tank character with a high AC who's willing to charge into melee combat. Most monsters don't have combat reflexes, which means after the first AoO attempt, everyone else can close to melee range in relative safety. Likewise if someone needs to retreat. Just have someone else pull some AoO-provoking shenanigans first to draw the creature's fire, then you can run away. You could also stock up on potions of Enlarge Person and start dishing out to monsters who can't 5' step anymore either. Ranged characters probably won't care too much, although it will be annoying now and then when they need the extra 5' to get in range. Or to 5' out if they're caught off guard. Same goes for the caster, who also sometimes 5' in to deliver a devastating touch spell to a larger creature
Nom 09-03-07, 07:56 AM	In combat you can´t use the five foot step.Why the "in combat" qualifier? That's what the 5 ft. step is for. or did he simply remove it altogether?
Molot 09-03-07, 09:07 AM	In someone's signature I've seen beautiful answer for that ;) It was like this (I don't remember wording): What DM says, goes. If DM says stupid things, his players goes as well. And alike: Rule 0: DM can change anything. Rule 0.5: The fact he can don't mean he should. And seriously - my DM "removed" 5' step too, but in a different way - all motion is based on descriptions and trust (our to him, his to us), not rules and measurement. The total effect, however, is as if we had The Step ;) If you cannot exploit lack of a step (due to low level and already chosen classes & feats you may have a problem), then talk to DM, and consider a change on DM's chair if talk will not help.