50% rule 4 grapplers? [Archive] - Wizards Community

50% rule 4 grapplers? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tyrecian
11-27-06, 07:51 PM ok, dumb question, but i am curious, and dont have my PHB(3.5)

if someone is in combat and grappling with another (foe) then if a PC wants to hit them with a weapon there is a 50% chance that they hit their target, but also another 50% chance they hit their ally....

still if a rogue gets a hit in on that mess, he gets his sneak attack?

sounds risky since he might sneak attack his ally, but i am curious (i dunno bout the 50% rule, noone ever mentions it with grapple on the boards, but we have been playing it so long... i dont remember where it came from).

If the 50% either combatant is hit is a house rule, someone tell me~!

This has been a real thorn in the side for our grapplers in the past, since they end up grappling as a kind of distraction... tending to take a NPC out of the combat. We cant kill the NPC, and the player slowly works it down (although usually ends up pinning and fighting over the pin with the NPC).

Add to that the rule which keeps grapplers from threatenning squares (unless they take -20 on grapple check... hehe yeah right b4 lvl 12) adjacent and it really hinders the ability of even a secondary tank that is a grappler...

not that i am complaining, grapplers are pretty incredible for what they are able to do, i was just curious if we were missing something...
Fargren
11-27-06, 10:40 PM The rule only applies to ranged attacks, and attacks wth mis chance can't be sneaks, so there's no risk of sneak attacking an ally.
Inigo Carmine
11-27-06, 11:03 PM attacks wth mis chance can't be sneaks, so there's no risk of sneak attacking an ally.

Concealment prevents sneak attacks, not just a miss chance. In my games I rule that you can't sneak attack what you're not aiming at, and so missing your target (whether you hit an ally or a different enemy) results in no sneak attack. Note, this is a House Rule.

Back on track:

The rule isn't specifically a 50% chance to hit what you're aiming for in a grapple with a ranged attack, it's "roll randomly", with no other clarification. Most people take this to mean an equal chance of hitting any target in the grapple. With only two grapplers, iot's 50%, with 3 it's 33.333%, 4 it's 25%, etc.

As for the rule's location, check your Combat Modifiers chart in the combat chapter of the PHB. It's a footnote under the table referenced by the "enemy in a grapple" (or something similar) entry.
draconic_swine
11-27-06, 11:03 PM And here's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#favorableandUnfavora bleConditions) the proof (it's in Table: Armor Class Modifiers in case you start looking through the text).
ShinAkuma2
11-27-06, 11:11 PM The rule only applies to ranged attacks, and attacks wth mis chance can't be sneaks, so there's no risk of sneak attacking an ally.

This isn't a "miss chance", nor is it concealment, which is what prevents Sneak Attack..

If you hit your ally, you Sneak Attack him, unless your DM rules that SA isn't automatic (as Inigo does).
ibayboy
11-28-06, 01:17 AM Also the percentage chance will be modified if one or more of the grapplers are a different size. I think 1 'large' counts as 4 'medium' etc.
Qube
11-28-06, 05:12 AM If you hit your ally, you Sneak Attack him, unless your DM rules that SA isn't automatic (as Inigo does).
oops i missed
oops i hit my ally
darn, i'm so good at hitting weakspots that i sneak attacked my ally??
Gargantuan_Ninja
11-28-06, 12:15 PM Also the percentage chance will be modified if one or more of the grapplers are a different size. I think 1 'large' counts as 4 'medium' etc.
1 large = 2 medium, 4 small etc.

size is doubled each step up the ladder.
tiny = 1/4
small = 1/2
medium = 1
large = 2
huge = 4
Gargantuan = 8
colossal = 16

If there is a large and a medium creature grappling and you want to attack into the grapple. theres a 1 in 3 chance you'll hit the medium and a 2 in 3 chance you'll hit the large.
ShinAkuma2
11-28-06, 12:20 PM darn, i'm so good at hitting weakspots that i sneak attacked my ally??

Sure, why not?

If you accidentally nailed an ally with a critical hit, should it not count?

The Sneak Attack ability says, "The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC," not that it "may" do that extra damage. It simply does.
ibayboy
11-28-06, 01:45 PM 1 large = 2 medium, 4 small etc.

size is doubled each step up the ladder.
tiny = 1/4
small = 1/2
medium = 1
large = 2
huge = 4
Gargantuan = 8
colossal = 16

If there is a large and a medium creature grappling and you want to attack into the grapple. theres a 1 in 3 chance you'll hit the medium and a 2 in 3 chance you'll hit the large.

Thanks for clarifying that. I was too lazy to look it up. I never fire into a grapple, so it rarely comes up.
Marendithas_the_Necro
11-28-06, 01:56 PM If you hit, by a mistake an ally, I think I read in the PH that if you say:
Jozan hits whatever come from the door. Suddenly, Lidda come back from his scouting, I think I seen a sense motive check or something to avoid attacking your ally
Trundle
11-28-06, 02:22 PM 1 large = 2 medium, 4 small etc.

size is doubled each step up the ladder.
tiny = 1/4
small = 1/2
medium = 1
large = 2
huge = 4
Gargantuan = 8
colossal = 16

If there is a large and a medium creature grappling and you want to attack into the grapple. theres a 1 in 3 chance you'll hit the medium and a 2 in 3 chance you'll hit the large.

I'm not sure about your premise, here. A large creature may be twice as tall as a medium one, but their overall size can be even more than that. Note that they take up 4x the space on a grid. Also note that the weight after an Enlarge Person has multiplied by 8. Since D&D is a 3 dimensional world, doubling all three dimensions leads to an eight-fold increase in volume. This isn't true for large-long creatures (such as a horse), but seems more common than not.

Granted, the D&D scaling rules aren't entirely consistent about this. While medium-to-large seems to double all dimensions, large-to-huge doubles height but only adds 50% to length and width. Along the same lines, it's 33% from huge-to-gargantuan, and 50% from gargantuan to colossal. It seems creatures tend to get proportionally slimmer or spindlier as they scale up.

I don't really have an opinion on how to adjudicate the grappling questions within the rules; to be honest I can't recall my players ever shooting into a grapple (when they can close to melee and get significant benefits with no miss chance). If I ruled that they only had a 1 in 16 (or 1 in 64!?) chance to hit their medium friend while the storm giant (huge) was grappling him, I think they'd be much more inclined to. Of course, that might make a good deal more sense, considering that if you think three dimensionally, the Storm Giant occupies some 27 5' squares to their medium friend's 1.
mvincent
11-28-06, 03:27 PM the percentage chance will be modified if one or more of the grapplers are a different size. I think 1 'large' counts as 4 'medium' etc.To clarify: that appears to be a house rule. It seems reasonable, just not stated anywhere.
tyrecian
11-28-06, 04:25 PM Trundle said:

"to be honest I can't recall my players ever shooting into a grapple (when they can close to melee and get significant benefits with no miss chance). "

maybe i wasnt clear, but it seems the consensus is in... My DM applies the 50% rule to all attacks, not just range. So that significant bonus always has a 50% miss chance to hit ally. And that includes any size.

I just wanted to know if the PHB had that cause we play core, and i would like to modify this rule in the future, as it becomes a real thorn in the side of party when a creature made to grapple simply assassinates a wizard and there is nothing anyone can do because they would kill the wizzie as well with any melee attempt.
mvincent
11-28-06, 04:35 PM My DM applies the 50% rule to all attacks, not just range.That seems like a fairly broken house-rule.

I just wanted to know if the PHB had thatNope. The following note is listed only in the ranged attack column (in the grapple row) of the Armor Class Modifiers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm)table:
"Roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike. That defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC."

cause we play coreThen you would want to use the random roll only on ranged attacks.
Gargantuan_Ninja
11-28-06, 05:22 PM If I ruled that they only had a 1 in 16 (or 1 in 64!?) chance to hit their medium friend while the storm giant (huge) was grappling him, I think they'd be much more inclined to. Of course, that might make a good deal more sense, considering that if you think three dimensionally, the Storm Giant occupies some 27 5' squares to their medium friend's 1.

but you're not attacking volume, you can only attack one face of the creature. theres only so much of any sized creature you can see.

by those numbers i posted up above its a 1 in 5 chance of hitting the medium, 4 in 5 of hitting the huge sized giant.

its all down to personal taste and what works for your group. especially when the rules dont seem to clarify it properly.
Nom
11-28-06, 08:57 PM The Sneak Attack ability says, "The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC," not that it "may" do that extra damage. It simply does.Except that it then follows up with a long list of situations where it doesn't.

I rule that you can't sneak attack while shooting into a grapple. Why? "The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach that spot." (PH pg 50). Concealment is given as an application. If you can't be sure of hitting your intended target because your ally might be in the way, I think you're going to have problems getting a clean shot at a vital spot.

Even if you do allow sneak attack damage, the same logic would deny it to an "accidentally" hit target. If you weren't aiming at them, there's no way you can have "picked out a vital spot", by the very definition of "aiming".
allenchan
11-28-06, 09:02 PM maybe i wasnt clear, but it seems the consensus is in... My DM applies the 50% rule to all attacks, not just range. So that significant bonus always has a 50% miss chance to hit ally. And that includes any size.

I just wanted to know if the PHB had that cause we play core, and i would like to modify this rule in the future, as it becomes a real thorn in the side of party when a creature made to grapple simply assassinates a wizard and there is nothing anyone can do because they would kill the wizzie as well with any melee attempt.

So then, yes, your DM is wrong.

To go a step further, the only mention of this "rule" anywhere is a notation at the bottom of a table, there is no text referencing it, as there should be, or explaining how to roll randomly. And since wotc has a firm rule that text trumps tables, ergo, there is no randomly hitting grapplers if you're playing strictly core.
Plothos
11-29-06, 02:38 AM To go a step further, the only mention of this "rule" anywhere is a notation at the bottom of a table, there is no text referencing it, as there should be, or explaining how to roll randomly. And since wotc has a firm rule that text trumps tables, ergo, there is no randomly hitting grapplers if you're playing strictly core.I think this is mistaken. The stipulation that text trumps tables, as I read it, means only that you should go by the text whenever there is disagreement between the two. As in one says A and the other says not-A. If a table says something on which the text is silent, there is no disagreement. What you're saying is ignore tables unless they explicitly repeat something in the text. If that were the case, there would be no rule telling us how much damage a longsword does. Nor any info on the BAB of a fighter. Etc.
ibayboy
11-29-06, 03:08 AM I think this is mistaken. The stipulation that text trumps tables, as I read it, means only that you should go by the text whenever there is disagreement between the two. As in one says A and the other says not-A. If a table says something on which the text is silent, there is no disagreement. What you're saying is ignore tables unless they explicitly repeat something in the text. If that were the case, there would be no rule telling us how much damage a longsword does. Nor any info on the BAB of a fighter. Etc.

Also, the text is repeated in the 'normal' entry for the Improved Precise Shot feat, PHB pg96.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tyrecian 11-27-06, 07:51 PM	ok, dumb question, but i am curious, and dont have my PHB(3.5) if someone is in combat and grappling with another (foe) then if a PC wants to hit them with a weapon there is a 50% chance that they hit their target, but also another 50% chance they hit their ally.... still if a rogue gets a hit in on that mess, he gets his sneak attack? sounds risky since he might sneak attack his ally, but i am curious (i dunno bout the 50% rule, noone ever mentions it with grapple on the boards, but we have been playing it so long... i dont remember where it came from). If the 50% either combatant is hit is a house rule, someone tell me~! This has been a real thorn in the side for our grapplers in the past, since they end up grappling as a kind of distraction... tending to take a NPC out of the combat. We cant kill the NPC, and the player slowly works it down (although usually ends up pinning and fighting over the pin with the NPC). Add to that the rule which keeps grapplers from threatenning squares (unless they take -20 on grapple check... hehe yeah right b4 lvl 12) adjacent and it really hinders the ability of even a secondary tank that is a grappler... not that i am complaining, grapplers are pretty incredible for what they are able to do, i was just curious if we were missing something...
Fargren 11-27-06, 10:40 PM	The rule only applies to ranged attacks, and attacks wth mis chance can't be sneaks, so there's no risk of sneak attacking an ally.
Inigo Carmine 11-27-06, 11:03 PM	attacks wth mis chance can't be sneaks, so there's no risk of sneak attacking an ally. Concealment prevents sneak attacks, not just a miss chance. In my games I rule that you can't sneak attack what you're not aiming at, and so missing your target (whether you hit an ally or a different enemy) results in no sneak attack. Note, this is a House Rule. Back on track: The rule isn't specifically a 50% chance to hit what you're aiming for in a grapple with a ranged attack, it's "roll randomly", with no other clarification. Most people take this to mean an equal chance of hitting any target in the grapple. With only two grapplers, iot's 50%, with 3 it's 33.333%, 4 it's 25%, etc. As for the rule's location, check your Combat Modifiers chart in the combat chapter of the PHB. It's a footnote under the table referenced by the "enemy in a grapple" (or something similar) entry.
draconic_swine 11-27-06, 11:03 PM	And here's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#favorableandUnfavora bleConditions) the proof (it's in Table: Armor Class Modifiers in case you start looking through the text).
ShinAkuma2 11-27-06, 11:11 PM	The rule only applies to ranged attacks, and attacks wth mis chance can't be sneaks, so there's no risk of sneak attacking an ally. This isn't a "miss chance", nor is it concealment, which is what prevents Sneak Attack.. If you hit your ally, you Sneak Attack him, unless your DM rules that SA isn't automatic (as Inigo does).
ibayboy 11-28-06, 01:17 AM	Also the percentage chance will be modified if one or more of the grapplers are a different size. I think 1 'large' counts as 4 'medium' etc.
Qube 11-28-06, 05:12 AM	If you hit your ally, you Sneak Attack him, unless your DM rules that SA isn't automatic (as Inigo does). oops i missed oops i hit my ally darn, i'm so good at hitting weakspots that i sneak attacked my ally??
Gargantuan_Ninja 11-28-06, 12:15 PM	Also the percentage chance will be modified if one or more of the grapplers are a different size. I think 1 'large' counts as 4 'medium' etc. 1 large = 2 medium, 4 small etc. size is doubled each step up the ladder. tiny = 1/4 small = 1/2 medium = 1 large = 2 huge = 4 Gargantuan = 8 colossal = 16 If there is a large and a medium creature grappling and you want to attack into the grapple. theres a 1 in 3 chance you'll hit the medium and a 2 in 3 chance you'll hit the large.
ShinAkuma2 11-28-06, 12:20 PM	darn, i'm so good at hitting weakspots that i sneak attacked my ally?? Sure, why not? If you accidentally nailed an ally with a critical hit, should it not count? The Sneak Attack ability says, "The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC," not that it "may" do that extra damage. It simply does.
ibayboy 11-28-06, 01:45 PM	1 large = 2 medium, 4 small etc. size is doubled each step up the ladder. tiny = 1/4 small = 1/2 medium = 1 large = 2 huge = 4 Gargantuan = 8 colossal = 16 If there is a large and a medium creature grappling and you want to attack into the grapple. theres a 1 in 3 chance you'll hit the medium and a 2 in 3 chance you'll hit the large. Thanks for clarifying that. I was too lazy to look it up. I never fire into a grapple, so it rarely comes up.
Marendithas_the_Necro 11-28-06, 01:56 PM	If you hit, by a mistake an ally, I think I read in the PH that if you say: Jozan hits whatever come from the door. Suddenly, Lidda come back from his scouting, I think I seen a sense motive check or something to avoid attacking your ally
Trundle 11-28-06, 02:22 PM	1 large = 2 medium, 4 small etc. size is doubled each step up the ladder. tiny = 1/4 small = 1/2 medium = 1 large = 2 huge = 4 Gargantuan = 8 colossal = 16 If there is a large and a medium creature grappling and you want to attack into the grapple. theres a 1 in 3 chance you'll hit the medium and a 2 in 3 chance you'll hit the large. I'm not sure about your premise, here. A large creature may be twice as tall as a medium one, but their overall size can be even more than that. Note that they take up 4x the space on a grid. Also note that the weight after an Enlarge Person has multiplied by 8. Since D&D is a 3 dimensional world, doubling all three dimensions leads to an eight-fold increase in volume. This isn't true for large-long creatures (such as a horse), but seems more common than not. Granted, the D&D scaling rules aren't entirely consistent about this. While medium-to-large seems to double all dimensions, large-to-huge doubles height but only adds 50% to length and width. Along the same lines, it's 33% from huge-to-gargantuan, and 50% from gargantuan to colossal. It seems creatures tend to get proportionally slimmer or spindlier as they scale up. I don't really have an opinion on how to adjudicate the grappling questions within the rules; to be honest I can't recall my players ever shooting into a grapple (when they can close to melee and get significant benefits with no miss chance). If I ruled that they only had a 1 in 16 (or 1 in 64!?) chance to hit their medium friend while the storm giant (huge) was grappling him, I think they'd be much more inclined to. Of course, that might make a good deal more sense, considering that if you think three dimensionally, the Storm Giant occupies some 27 5' squares to their medium friend's 1.
mvincent 11-28-06, 03:27 PM	the percentage chance will be modified if one or more of the grapplers are a different size. I think 1 'large' counts as 4 'medium' etc.To clarify: that appears to be a house rule. It seems reasonable, just not stated anywhere.
tyrecian 11-28-06, 04:25 PM	Trundle said: "to be honest I can't recall my players ever shooting into a grapple (when they can close to melee and get significant benefits with no miss chance). " maybe i wasnt clear, but it seems the consensus is in... My DM applies the 50% rule to all attacks, not just range. So that significant bonus always has a 50% miss chance to hit ally. And that includes any size. I just wanted to know if the PHB had that cause we play core, and i would like to modify this rule in the future, as it becomes a real thorn in the side of party when a creature made to grapple simply assassinates a wizard and there is nothing anyone can do because they would kill the wizzie as well with any melee attempt.
mvincent 11-28-06, 04:35 PM	My DM applies the 50% rule to all attacks, not just range.That seems like a fairly broken house-rule. I just wanted to know if the PHB had thatNope. The following note is listed only in the ranged attack column (in the grapple row) of the Armor Class Modifiers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm)table: "Roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike. That defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC." cause we play coreThen you would want to use the random roll only on ranged attacks.
Gargantuan_Ninja 11-28-06, 05:22 PM	If I ruled that they only had a 1 in 16 (or 1 in 64!?) chance to hit their medium friend while the storm giant (huge) was grappling him, I think they'd be much more inclined to. Of course, that might make a good deal more sense, considering that if you think three dimensionally, the Storm Giant occupies some 27 5' squares to their medium friend's 1. but you're not attacking volume, you can only attack one face of the creature. theres only so much of any sized creature you can see. by those numbers i posted up above its a 1 in 5 chance of hitting the medium, 4 in 5 of hitting the huge sized giant. its all down to personal taste and what works for your group. especially when the rules dont seem to clarify it properly.
Nom 11-28-06, 08:57 PM	The Sneak Attack ability says, "The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC," not that it "may" do that extra damage. It simply does.Except that it then follows up with a long list of situations where it doesn't. I rule that you can't sneak attack while shooting into a grapple. Why? "The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach that spot." (PH pg 50). Concealment is given as an application. If you can't be sure of hitting your intended target because your ally might be in the way, I think you're going to have problems getting a clean shot at a vital spot. Even if you do allow sneak attack damage, the same logic would deny it to an "accidentally" hit target. If you weren't aiming at them, there's no way you can have "picked out a vital spot", by the very definition of "aiming".
allenchan 11-28-06, 09:02 PM	maybe i wasnt clear, but it seems the consensus is in... My DM applies the 50% rule to all attacks, not just range. So that significant bonus always has a 50% miss chance to hit ally. And that includes any size. I just wanted to know if the PHB had that cause we play core, and i would like to modify this rule in the future, as it becomes a real thorn in the side of party when a creature made to grapple simply assassinates a wizard and there is nothing anyone can do because they would kill the wizzie as well with any melee attempt. So then, yes, your DM is wrong. To go a step further, the only mention of this "rule" anywhere is a notation at the bottom of a table, there is no text referencing it, as there should be, or explaining how to roll randomly. And since wotc has a firm rule that text trumps tables, ergo, there is no randomly hitting grapplers if you're playing strictly core.
Plothos 11-29-06, 02:38 AM	To go a step further, the only mention of this "rule" anywhere is a notation at the bottom of a table, there is no text referencing it, as there should be, or explaining how to roll randomly. And since wotc has a firm rule that text trumps tables, ergo, there is no randomly hitting grapplers if you're playing strictly core.I think this is mistaken. The stipulation that text trumps tables, as I read it, means only that you should go by the text whenever there is disagreement between the two. As in one says A and the other says not-A. If a table says something on which the text is silent, there is no disagreement. What you're saying is ignore tables unless they explicitly repeat something in the text. If that were the case, there would be no rule telling us how much damage a longsword does. Nor any info on the BAB of a fighter. Etc.
ibayboy 11-29-06, 03:08 AM	I think this is mistaken. The stipulation that text trumps tables, as I read it, means only that you should go by the text whenever there is disagreement between the two. As in one says A and the other says not-A. If a table says something on which the text is silent, there is no disagreement. What you're saying is ignore tables unless they explicitly repeat something in the text. If that were the case, there would be no rule telling us how much damage a longsword does. Nor any info on the BAB of a fighter. Etc. Also, the text is repeated in the 'normal' entry for the Improved Precise Shot feat, PHB pg96.