Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DM-Scott 02-11-08, 11:15 PM	My group (especially when I'm a player) prefers using x/day wands instead of standard charged wands, because it doesn't feel like we're "wasting" anything; but it also means we don't have the freedom to blast and cast as needed until our faces turn blue. So here's the question. Which would you prefer, a wand with 5 charges per day (which is a renewable source of power) or the standard blast-till you drop 50 charges. If just going by the DMG guidelines (I don't have the MIC), a 5/day wand would cost the same as a 50 charge wand, I believe. In addition, since fewer charges a day means overall cost (since you divide it a bit), what sorts of spells would you want to get that you could only use a couple of times a day, or once. My favorite is Secure Shelter 1/day. :D PS: I'm not talking about Eternal Wands from the ECS, which can be used by anyone, and are effectively wondrous items.
Jaxgaret 02-11-08, 11:19 PM	Eternal Wands are 2/day and cost just about the same as Wands with 50 charges on them. EDIT: Oh I see you stated that in the OP. Can you detail the math that you are using to get a 5/day Wand as equivalent in cost to a 50 charge Wand?
DM-Scott 02-12-08, 12:24 AM	Well I didn't in the original post because I wasn't sure if that's a violation of the rules, since the magic item creation guidelines aren't part of the SRD (as far as I've seen). But essentially it says to determine the cost of a x / day item, divide the base price by (5 divided by charges per day) to get the price of your x/day item. So a wand of magic missile costs 750gp, divided by 2.5 (5 /2 = 2.5) would be 300gp for a 2/day magic missile. If you wanted 5 a day, then it would be 750gp divided by 1 (5 divided by 5 = 1) making it 750gp like a 50 charge wand. Now, if you wanted a 10/day magic missle wand, it would cost you 1,500gp (5/10 = .5), because 750gp divided by .5 doubles the amount. It's really not uncommon in our group to find a number of minor wands with 1 charge per day floating around in the party's inventory. For example, in a recently ran game, the party chipped in for a wand of fireball 1/day (2,250gp), which they gave to the magic domain cleric necromancer to use in case of an emergency. It saw some use. Staves and such can follow the same rules. For example, instead of a stave that has 50 charges with 5 different spells all drawing from the same charges, you could end up with a staff with 5 charges per day, with those spells pulling from those charges. From a player's perspective, I've found I like playing with such items more and I don't ever feel like whatever I'm buying or making will get wasted. I'm more likely to grab up wands or other items that would have cool effects but would otherwise be a huge waste of money otherwise, and would see little use - but at 1/5th the price, I can usually live with 1/day. From a DM's perspective, I've found I don't mind these types of items. The first reaction is usually "OMG, INFINITE WANDS!?", until you step back and realize that it becomes just another trick the party can do. As in the previous example, a group I was running for, had characters below 5th level. They wanted to make sure they had something to help them against swarms or lots of minions (such as goblins), and chipped in to get a wand of fireball 1/day. At their level, that's a huge investment (over 2,000gp), especially for a 1/day trick, and they were happy with it and didn't feel like they wasted their hard earned cash. They did end up using the wand fairly often throughout the adventures they went on, but it was very manageable from my perspective; and it didn't allow them to cake-walk through the adventures. It also made it easy to look at its value, and both determine treasure appropriately for their level easily, as well as gauge how much it would affect an encounter; "Ok, they'll use this if they have it, but no more than X times, which could take out these guys but not those guys..." kinda stuff. It also means that people with the craft wands / staves feats will definately not hesitate to do so. A generalist wizard or artificer who have the feats may be carrying around a number of random things they might need, similar to how people carry around spare scrolls ("Uhhh, I have a wand of knock, detect magic, see invisibility, and mage hand. I got 1 charge on the knock, 1 on the detect magic, 1 on the see invisibility, and 5 on the mage hand."). It will make it more likely that if the party has thought to prepare a little of everything, they will have a little of everything. So far, my gaming group has loved them, but I was wondering what other people would opt for. I've noticed some players I've spoken to said they would rather have 50 charges on a lot of spells (especially blasting spells) so they could use as many as they needed in a short period of time (such as spamming scorching rays, fireballs, and lightning bolts every round of a particularly nasty encounter). So this got me curious as to what the general gaming population would prefer (from the player's perspective mostly).
DM-Scott 02-12-08, 12:33 AM	Oh yeah, I should also note that most wands the party finds are standard wands with charges, and those are the same kinds most of the NPCs and such use, so not ALL the wands they may carry are x/day - but buying and crafting wands yourself is where you get most of the x/day wands from.
Jaxgaret 02-12-08, 12:35 AM	Well I didn't in the original post because I wasn't sure if that's a violation of the rules, since the magic item creation guidelines aren't part of the SRD (as far as I've seen). But essentially it says to determine the cost of a x / day item, divide the base price by (5 divided by charges per day) to get the price of your x/day item. So a wand of magic missile costs 750gp, divided by 2.5 (5 /2 = 2.5) would be 300gp for a 2/day magic missile. If you wanted 5 a day, then it would be 750gp divided by 1 (5 divided by 5 = 1) making it 750gp like a 50 charge wand. Now, if you wanted a 10/day magic missle wand, it would cost you 1,500gp (5/10 = .5), because 750gp divided by .5 doubles the amount. It is in the SRD: Creating Magic Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm). To create a 2/day slotless magic item (which is essentially what an Eternal Wand is), going by SRD creation guidelines, it would be 2/5 * 2 * [1/2 unlimited use base price], which works out equal to 2/5 of the unlimited use base price. Which means that said 2/day item that is based off of a 10 min/lvl spell would cost slightly more than a 50 charge Wand, since Wands are [x 750 gp] and unlimited use items are [x 2000 gp] - and hey, that's how Eternal Wands are priced.
DM-Scott 02-12-08, 02:58 AM	Yes, but these are different from eternal wands. For one, eternal wands are actually very dissimilar to true wands in that they don't rely on class and spell lists to cast the spells within (they can be used by any arcane caster, so a bard with a fireball eternal wand can cast fireball from it twice per day). However, these are in effect wands; that is - not subject to the x2 price modifier for not taking up body slots, with the base price being 750gp x spell level x caster level, then modified based on the charges per day (divide by [5 divided by charges]), which results in the simple formula I posted previously. Thus unlike "eternal wands" which are a completely different kind of magic item, which allow you to cast any spell from it as long as you're an arcane caster, these are still subject to all the normal rules for wands. Though eternal wands have the added benefit of being usable to get restricted spells for specialist wizards, which is cool. But, as the original query went... Which would you prefer as a player, and in what circumstances?
Blarghy 02-12-08, 03:22 AM	But, as the original query went... Which would you prefer as a player, and in what circumstances? For attack spells, I'd almost always go for the 50 charge wand. A lot of times I've found that level-appropriate attack spell wands just sit on the inventory sheet gathering dust until you wind up in a OHCRAPOHCRAPOHCRAP situation where you need to be able to whip out the firepower and blast away all day, especially when the DM decides to exceed 4-5 encounters per day (especially if the majority of your playgroup use characters that are on the newer X abilities per encounter system, while you're using a creaky old X abilities per day character). For defensive spells, usually I'd go for X/day wands, since you generally only need to use them once per encounter (maybe twice to buff an ally). Having the charges refresh daily means that you'll be able to use the wand in far more encounters than a wand with a finite number of charges. For healing spells, if the party lacked a cleric or other primary healer, I'd go for the X/day wand as a substitute, since you'll almost always expend all the daily charges each and every day. If the party already has a cleric or primary healer, then I'd prefer the 50 charge wand, to be able to top-up the cleric's healing as much as needed. (Though, to be perfectly honest, I'd probably buy both if given the opportunity -- you can never have too much healing)
Rederik 02-12-08, 09:40 AM	My opinion is "blaster wands" are worthless... Their DC is pitiful for your level, so me (and the people I play with) never buy blaster wands. Maybe an eternal Magic Missle, but nothing like Fireball or Lightning bolt... Usually, it is healing wands, which are Wands of Minor Vigor... For out of combat healing, which are always 50 charges. I think a few have an Eternal Wand of CLW. The problem I see with 5/Day is depending on the spell, it may as well be infinite. How many times will you use Knock in a given day? I guess my opinion from a DMs perspective is, there are already rules for use per day wands... just use those ones. (Not telling you that, that is what I would tell my players if they asked for this...)
Jaxgaret 02-12-08, 10:18 AM	Yes, but these are different from eternal wands. For one, eternal wands are actually very dissimilar to true wands in that they don't rely on class and spell lists to cast the spells within (they can be used by any arcane caster, so a bard with a fireball eternal wand can cast fireball from it twice per day). However, these are in effect wands; that is - not subject to the x2 price modifier for not taking up body slots, with the base price being 750gp x spell level x caster level, then modified based on the charges per day (divide by [5 divided by charges]), which results in the simple formula I posted previously. Except that you didn't explain exactly how you got the idea that a 5/day Wand would cost the same as a Wand with 50 charges. Could you please elaborate?
DM-Scott 02-12-08, 12:19 PM	For attack spells, I'd almost always go for the 50 charge wand. A lot of times I've found that level-appropriate attack spell wands just sit on the inventory sheet gathering dust until you wind up in a OHCRAPOHCRAPOHCRAP situation where you need to be able to whip out the firepower and blast away all day, especially when the DM decides to exceed 4-5 encounters per day (especially if the majority of your playgroup use characters that are on the newer X abilities per encounter system, while you're using a creaky old X abilities per day character). For defensive spells, usually I'd go for X/day wands, since you generally only need to use them once per encounter (maybe twice to buff an ally). Having the charges refresh daily means that you'll be able to use the wand in far more encounters than a wand with a finite number of charges. For healing spells, if the party lacked a cleric or other primary healer, I'd go for the X/day wand as a substitute, since you'll almost always expend all the daily charges each and every day. If the party already has a cleric or primary healer, then I'd prefer the 50 charge wand, to be able to top-up the cleric's healing as much as needed. (Though, to be perfectly honest, I'd probably buy both if given the opportunity -- you can never have too much healing) Thanks for the input Blarghy. Your insight is a boon to my curiosity. :) Except that you didn't explain exactly how you got the idea that a 5/day Wand would cost the same as a Wand with 50 charges. Could you please elaborate? I thought I did already. Well here goes again. :teach: The math is base price divided by (5 divided by x charges [5 divided by 5 = 1]). 5 divided by 5 = 1. 750gp x 1 x 1 / 1 = 750gp. Wands aren't subject to the x2 price modifier for unstlotted items (which is obvious by looking at the general prices for wands). But...as a player which would you prefer? :)
Jaxgaret 02-12-08, 03:39 PM	I thought I did already. Well here goes again. :teach: The math is base price divided by (5 divided by x charges [5 divided by 5 = 1]). 5 divided by 5 = 1. 750gp x 1 x 1 / 1 = 750gp. Wands aren't subject to the x2 price modifier for unstlotted items (which is obvious by looking at the general prices for wands). DM-Scott, you are missing my point. You are not actually stating what section of the Magic Item Creation guidelines you think agree with your interpretation. Please go back and read them again. To put it simply, there is no straight conversion for a 5/day Wand like you are stating there is. What you are posting is wrong. OTOH, there are rules for a 2/day (or x/day) slotless magic item based on a spell, like I posted above.
deathbane 02-12-08, 04:12 PM	My group (especially when I'm a player) prefers using x/day wands instead of standard charged wands, because it doesn't feel like we're "wasting" anything; but it also means we don't have the freedom to blast and cast as needed until our faces turn blue. So here's the question. Which would you prefer, a wand with 5 charges per day (which is a renewable source of power) or the standard blast-till you drop 50 charges. If just going by the DMG guidelines (I don't have the MIC), a 5/day wand would cost the same as a 50 charge wand, I believe. In addition, since fewer charges a day means overall cost (since you divide it a bit), what sorts of spells would you want to get that you could only use a couple of times a day, or once. My favorite is Secure Shelter 1/day. :D PS: I'm not talking about Eternal Wands from the ECS, which can be used by anyone, and are effectively wondrous items. It really depends on the spell. If it is a fireball spell or any other attack spell I would like to be able to use it as much as possible. The loot I get from dead enemies means it should pay for itself. If it is a wand of cure X or some other utility spell it would be better as 5/day since having the caster save 5 spells to do something else is pretty useful.
groveborn 02-13-08, 02:49 AM	It seems to be a common misconception that wondrous items that replicate spells are more expensive when not worn. By default these do not require a body slot. I base this on the fact that scrolls, wands, and potions are the exact cost of a slotted version of themselves. The items that do require double the cost are items that typically provide some continuous benefit, such as Ioun stones. Consider that a... rock, or a stick of fireball, with 5 uses per day would be, as a command word opperated, 3x5x1800=27,000, then as the SRD says with daily limits "If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges", divide 27000 in half for 13,500. It's only a little more than a wand of fireball. You may consider it unbalanced, but really, a level 5 fireball isn't that great, and it can only be used 5 times in one day, vs. a wand which could be used 50 times that day. The potential for damage is heavily mitigated by the cap. Wands are more abusable, and cost less, even if they run out forever eventually. Dare to doubt me, go ahead.
Jaxgaret 02-13-08, 12:11 PM	then as the SRD says with daily limits "If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges" The section you are referring to, footnote 6, is referencing spells with an XP or material component cost, thus it has nothing to do with the type of item you were attempting to create. The Magic Item Creation guidelines can be easily misinterpreted if not read critically and thoroughly. Dare to doubt me, go ahead. Funny that you should say this, when you made such a clear mistake above.