Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crazy_DM 09-17-05, 04:48 AM	Hej folks, I have a question about the 5ft. step: According to the SRD the 5ft. step belongs to Not an Action, that means: They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else. At first this seems to fit with the readied action (if you do not ready a move action - yes). Example: You are standing next to a hostile wizard and ready a blow if the wizards starts to cast a spell. The wizard takes a 5ft. step back to avoid a AoO - okay, nothin happens. He starts to cast his spell - trigger!! You take a 5ft. step and close in to make your attack. This seems to be rather simple - okay. But now, how far does this and are considered an inherent part of doing something else go? As also written in the SRD (to come to my topic) In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Does this mean, that you can perfom a 5ft. step as part of speaking even if it is not yourn turn? If this works this would only have the following restriction: You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Thus if it has not yet been your regular turn you can speak an take a 5ft. step but afterwards at your turn your move action must not be moving. To give an example: Two PCs are sneaking ahead of the group. They are surprised by a monster which lurked in the shadows. After the surprise round the regular round starts: DM: "Okay, at ini 17 the monster attacks Player 1 *dice rolled* damage...you are down. The next initiative would be 15 as..." Player 2: "Wait, I shout out for help and take a 5ft. step back" DM: "Okay. Now at ini 15 another monster comes around the corner, but as you moved back 5 feet, it cannot reach you. Now, at ini 13 it is your turn Player 2" Player 2: "Well, as I took my 5ft step I draw my sword as a move action and strike at the first monster which almost killed my companion." Would this work? Cheers, Crazy DM
Darth_Azalin 09-17-05, 05:53 AM	Hej folks, I have a question about the 5ft. step: According to the SRD the 5ft. step belongs to Not an Action, that means: They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else. At first this seems to fit with the readied action (if you do not ready a move action - yes). Example: You are standing next to a hostile wizard and ready a blow if the wizards starts to cast a spell. The wizard takes a 5ft. step back to avoid a AoO - okay, nothin happens. He starts to cast his spell - trigger!! You take a 5ft. step and close in to make your attack. This seems to be rather simple - okay. Well since he moved back and the casting time is probably a standard action you wont be able to attack him unless you have a 10' reach weapon. But now, how far does this and are considered an inherent part of doing something else go? As also written in the SRD (to come to my topic) In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Does this mean, that you can perfom a 5ft. step as part of speaking even if it is not yourn turn? Well I would say you can speak but not move or do any actions till its your initative. If this works this would only have the following restriction: You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Thus if it has not yet been your regular turn you can speak an take a 5ft. step but afterwards at your turn your move action must not be moving. To give an example: Two PCs are sneaking ahead of the group. They are surprised by a monster which lurked in the shadows. After the surprise round the regular round starts: DM: "Okay, at ini 17 the monster attacks Player 1 *dice rolled* damage...you are down. The next initiative would be 15 as..." Player 2: "Wait, I shout out for help and take a 5ft. step back" DM: "Okay. Now at ini 15 another monster comes around the corner, but as you moved back 5 feet, it cannot reach you. Now, at ini 13 it is your turn Player 2" Player 2: "Well, as I took my 5ft step I draw my sword as a move action and strike at the first monster which almost killed my companion." Would this work? Cheers, Crazy DM 1. Well a 5ft step is actually a No Action not a free action. 2. Now I don't know the Monsters that attack your players but the ini 17 monster would get 2 attacks against your flat-footed pcs. 3. The second monster coming around the corner did his movement stopped short of the extra 5ft? (but this question is moot since your second pc couldn't move 5ft to begin with) 4. second player is ini 13 he wouldn't been able to move back till that ini number so he would of been clobbered. All the SRD out there I tend to use this the most.. http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm
Crazy_DM 09-17-05, 07:29 AM	Well since he moved back and the casting time is probably a standard action you wont be able to attack him unless you have a 10' reach weapon. Sorry? I do not know if I get you right. According to the SRD: You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round. So guess the character has a 5ft reach weapon (thus threatening the wizard - realy beeing next to him) , not moved yet and readys the action: "Striking the wizard if he casts a spell". Then the wizards moves back 5 feet and starts his casting. Now the character can move also 5 feet (belonging to his readied action), and has the wizard within reach again -> BLOW!! Where ist the probelm? Cheers, Crazy DM
l33t Shinobi 09-17-05, 07:49 AM	he's talking baout your second example; unless you readied and action to take a 5ft step, that would be on ini 13, not 15. but the 1st example holds out, and if your ini in ex2 was 15>13 it would also work when the other monster comes around. dont know if i helped, but theres my :twocents:
Shadowfax7 09-17-05, 08:44 AM	Does this mean, that you can perfom a 5ft. step as part of speaking even if it is not your turn? The short answer is no. This was not the intent of the Speaking rules.
Darth_Azalin 09-17-05, 09:20 AM	Sorry? I do not know if I get you right. According to the SRD: You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round. So guess the character has a 5ft reach weapon (thus threatening the wizard - realy beeing next to him) , not moved yet and readys the action: "Striking the wizard if he casts a spell". Then the wizards moves back 5 feet and starts his casting. Now the character can move also 5 feet (belonging to his readied action), and has the wizard within reach again -> BLOW!! Where ist the probelm? Cheers, Crazy DM Ok I would have you go to the table with actions again. Ready (triggers a standard action) Its a Standard action listing... Your 5' step is in the listing of No Action. So with that being said that the 5' step is not a standard action it can't be ready. ------------------ But here is were it gets in the attackers favor -- Take 5-Foot Step You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance. You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round. You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature. You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed. So with that being said .. Wizard moves back 5' (5' of his normal 30'?) and attacker guy which hasn't moved yet this round can move his 5'... But then the Wizard can then take his movement and get out of reach. And probably best to cast defensively.
Merestil Haye 09-17-05, 11:05 AM	So with that being said .. Wizard moves back 5' (5' of his normal 30'?) and attacker guy which hasn't moved yet this round can move his 5'... But then the Wizard can then take his movement and get out of reach. And probably best to cast defensively.This last is not the way things work. If the wizard stops moving to cast a spell, he has finished his movement. He cannot stop moving then restart after the readied action. (There may be ways to get round this but we will assume they do not apply here.) A 5' adjustment is not an action, therefore it must be taken in combination with some other qualifying action - any standard, move or full-round action that does not actually involve the character If the wizard wants to cast a spell in the same round as moving away he has three options. A 5' adjustment, a move action or a Withdraw action. If he takes the Withdraw action, he can move up to twice his speed. Since it is a full-round action, he may not then cast a spell. However, he provokes no AoOs from the enemy threatening him. If he takes the Move action he may move up to his speed, and provokes an AoO for moving out of the threatened area. After he has cleared the area he may cast his spell. In 3.5 this allows him to do so without fear of being attacked by the enemy who threatened him. If he takes a 5' adjustment he may then cast his spell. The enemy may then take a 5' adjustment and attack with his readied action. In response to the OP's example : I am not clear how Player 2 expects to be able to attack the first monster since he has taken a 5' step back and therefore should be unable to threaten it. In any case, characters may not take actions of any kind prior to their first action in a combat, and Player 2 appears (from your description) to be flat-footed. Even if he could take an action, speaking is not (imo) an action that would qualify him to take a 5' adjustment.
Crazy_DM 09-18-05, 10:01 AM	A 5' adjustment is not an action, therefore it must be taken in combination with some other qualifying action So why not as part of a free action like speak? If the wizard wants to cast a spell in the same round as moving away he has three options. A 5' adjustment, a move action or a Withdraw action. If he takes the Withdraw action, he can move up to twice his speed. Since it is a full-round action, he may not then cast a spell. However, he provokes no AoOs from the enemy threatening him. If he takes the Move action he may move up to his speed, and provokes an AoO for moving out of the threatened area. After he has cleared the area he may cast his spell. In 3.5 this allows him to do so without fear of being attacked by the enemy who threatened him. If he takes a 5' adjustment he may then cast his spell. The enemy may then take a 5' adjustment and attack with his readied action. Yes, I totally agree with you. But these three options were not the topic of my thread. Even if he could take an action, speaking is not (imo) an action that would qualify him to take a 5' adjustment. And exactly your imo is the problem I have. Is there any official clarification? Cheers, Crazy DM
Earndur 09-18-05, 10:49 AM	You wish to employ the 5-foot step when it isn't your turn by combining it with the Speak action? There are only a few specific examples of taking an action outside of your turn without changing your initiative order: Speaking, or Casting Feather Fall. There may be more, but those were the few that I could recall. I guess there are more spells like Feather Fall, if you include the Complete Adventurer in your campaign. I can't find any specific limitation that the 5-foot step must be taken during your turn. It only says before, during, or after your other actions in the round. Therefore, it would seem that you could combine a 5-foot step with another free action outside your turn. However, some DM may rule that a character can speak only on their turn, or that a character can't speak while flat-footed. Likewise, a DM may rule that the spirit of the rules governing the 5-foot step require that you perform it during your initiative turn like most other actions.
tarkin 09-18-05, 12:53 PM	Your basic idea is false. 5ft step, like all "not an action", can only be done while you take a regular standard action or Full action. They can not be done, say "while you are breathing", which happens all the time.
Earndur 09-18-05, 04:40 PM	Your basic idea is false. 5ft step, like all "not an action", can only be done while you take a regular standard action or Full action. They can not be done, say "while you are breathing", which happens all the time. Considering the RAW seems to allow a character to take a 5-foot step before during or after their actions in the round, would you let a character take a 5-foot step when casting Feather Fall, as a quickened spell, outside his initiative turn? Why, or why not?
jaelis 09-18-05, 05:16 PM	Myself, I would only allow a 5' step as part of a standard or move action, not any kind of quickened action. That said, taking a 5' step while casting feather fall doesn't make any sense, since you are (presumably) falling.
Earndur 09-18-05, 07:11 PM	Myself, I would only allow a 5' step as part of a standard or move action, not any kind of quickened action. That said, taking a 5' step while casting feather fall doesn't make any sense, since you are (presumably) falling. Unless it is your friend who is falling and a 5-foot step would get out of a concentration-check-needed-to-cast environment.
Darth_Azalin 09-18-05, 08:19 PM	[QUOTE=Merestil Haye]This last is not the way things work. If the wizard stops moving to cast a spell, he has finished his movement. He cannot stop moving then restart after the readied action. (There may be ways to get round this but we will assume they do not apply here.) Ok I believe its in one of the most recent books where they give more ideas on how to use skills. And I believe you can use concentration to move while casting the spell. I have to find it to make sure but Im willing to bet pretty heavy on this being right...
jbrsci 09-18-05, 08:41 PM	Just to post my thoughts.... I would only allow a 5-foot step out of a player's turn if they use it along with a readied action. As far as I know, the only way for a player to act out of turn is the readied action. Otherwise, the turn system loses most of its functionality. Now, you can ready standard, move, and free actions. Speaking counts as a free action, so technically, by my view, to move 5 feet while speaking out of turn would require a readied action to speak. That's not very productive, but I would allow it. I think it only makes sense that you can normally speak only during your turn, unless you are specifically waiting to yell when something happens. I'd allow a 5-foot step with other readied actions too, like attacks or fetching something from your pocket. I would not allow a 5-foot step to be readied in itself, since it's not an action. You'd be better off readying a move action.
Crazy_DM 09-19-05, 02:34 PM	Okay folks, thank you all for your guidance. I think I have to agree with you that my idea would not work. On the other hand I think it would give the game some more dynamics - maybe I think about a housrule but that does not belong to here. Let's close that thread. Cheers, Crazy DM