Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Manyfist 06-11-05, 05:53 PM	Ok, of all you people out there who know their weapons and such, what is the name of a 6' Long Katana? Also, does D&D have such a weapon? If not where do I need to start if their is no such weapon.
DarknessEternal 06-11-05, 06:02 PM	No-dachi. It is not functionally different than a greatsword.
Thorak 06-11-05, 06:02 PM	There's no such thing as a 6 foot long katana. Because katana is a term for a specific kind of weapon. There's a similar-styled sword about that long, though, called the no-dachi. While D&D doesn't specifically have a no-dachi, it would be covered under Greatsword.
Dark Voivode 06-11-05, 06:12 PM	OA lists a weapon called the Nagamaki pgs. 72-73 It's not the same as the no-dachi, but it's a WotC book at least. Sorry if that didn't help.
Manyfist 06-11-05, 06:14 PM	Ok, the No-Dachi. I got ya, I was just wondering because I been watching Vampire Hunter D AMV, and the Sword... the No-Dachi was so long. Then I realized that I could do such a Character. ;)
Zennithology 06-11-05, 07:07 PM	Great swords arent usually 6 feet long. I would use the stats of a full blade. Arms and equipment guide by the way.
Johannixx 06-11-05, 08:21 PM	Just treat it like a falchion or greatsword. If you REALLY want to munch it, make it a slashing version of the Elven Courtblade from Races of the Wild.
Wolf72 06-11-05, 08:53 PM	OA lists a weapon called the Nagamaki pgs. 72-73 It's not the same as the no-dachi, but it's a WotC book at least. Sorry if that didn't help. OA has it, there's a list of weapon equivalents somewhere in the equipment chapter and I'm pretty sure no-dachi/greatsword is listed.
Flay Crimsonwind 06-12-05, 12:41 AM	For vamp hunter D, I'd make it a +2 keen fullblade, maybe with a bonus against undead.
Niveus Lynx 06-12-05, 12:43 AM	Ok, the No-Dachi. I got ya, I was just wondering because I been watching Vampire Hunter D AMV, and the Sword... the No-Dachi was so long. Then I realized that I could do such a Character. ;) "The sword...it was so long...and he was so sweaty and handsome..." :P
Manyfist 06-12-05, 12:43 AM	For vamp hunter D, I'd make it a +2 keen fullblade, maybe with a bonus against undead. Full Blade? :confused: Can you give me the Damage? Edit: Niveus, D's Blade was really long.... I remember when he stabed Meir Link, he was like 4' away.
Niveus Lynx 06-12-05, 12:47 AM	Edit: Niveus, D's Blade was really long.... I remember when he stabed Meir Link, he was like 4' away. WOW! Penetration from 4 feet away. I wish I had a sword like his.
ShinQuickMan 06-12-05, 12:47 AM	Isn't the fullblade essentially a large bastard sword?
Niveus Lynx 06-12-05, 12:52 AM	Isn't the fullblade essentially a large bastard sword? It's in Sword and Fist (IIRC) and is 18 inches longer than the Greatsword.
Talmariel 06-12-05, 12:54 AM	D's blade would more than likely be equivalent to an elven thinblade or courtblade. Although I can't recall the name, there is a Japanese sword similar to a katana and no-dachi that's actually larger than the no-dachi. I can't recall the name, but it was intended for use from horseback if memory serves. Most decidedly a two-handed weapon with an extremely long grip, so not exactly D's sword of choice, but worth mentioning. :)
Ancient Wyrm 06-12-05, 02:23 AM	Full blade is a Huge weapon. It deals 2d8, 19-20 x2. That's 3.0. 3.5 would just call this a Large bastard sword and be done with it. Edit: I'll call it Elven Thinblade. Its 6' long and has a +2 Enhancement, with Undead Bane. :D I believe you mean courtblade. The thinblade is one-handed, a rapier with a damage die bump.
Manyfist 06-12-05, 02:38 AM	That's 3.0. 3.5 would just call this a Large bastard sword and be done with it. I believe you mean courtblade. The thinblade is one-handed, a rapier with a damage die bump. Oops.... Full blade isn't in 3.5. It still be 2d8. :D Wait its a Great sword, because a bastard Sword is wide, not long. I'll go and draw up a Vampire Hunter Class.... :D
Flay Crimsonwind 06-12-05, 02:44 AM	Oops.... Full blade isn't in 3.5. It still be 2d8. :D Wait its a Great sword, because a bastard Sword is wide, not long. I'll go and draw up a Vampire Hunter Class.... :DPM me the link to it, k?
Manyfist 06-12-05, 02:48 AM	PM me the link to it, k? I haven't even thought of it.
Galahdeon 06-12-05, 02:49 AM	OK big swords first thing i remember was the FFVII swords masamune, or something like that.
DarknessEternal 06-12-05, 03:40 AM	A nagamaki is more of a polearm than it is a sword.
The Amazing Dancing Bear 06-15-05, 02:42 PM	I think you're talking about the tachi. It's basically a gigantic katana that was used for the same reason the Scots used the claymore-sheer killing power. If you're using it against mounted people a lot, you might instead want to opt for a pu dao, or horse-chopping knife. This was a big ol' sword used to chop the legs out from under a horse. I would use a masterwork greatsword with crit 18-20/x2 and make it exotic.
Flay Crimsonwind 06-15-05, 03:14 PM	If you're using it against mounted people a lot, you might instead want to opt for a pu dao, or horse-chopping knife. This was a big ol' sword used to chop the legs out from under a horse. I would use a masterwork greatsword with crit 18-20/x2 and make it exotic.A japanese version is pretty much the same thing, called a zanbato, or horse-killing sword, and there's a class built around it's use somewhere in the class forums...............
Keenath 06-15-05, 03:22 PM	A japanese version is pretty much the same thing, called a zanbato, or horse-killing sword, and there's a class built around it's use somewhere in the class forums............... Yeah, if you're familiar with the early episodes of Kenshin, Sanosuke's sword is a zanbatou. Theoretically you could kill a horse with one of those. Unfortuantely, the Japanese stopped using those simply because they were too large to use effectively in combat. A no-dachi is nearly as good and much less cumbersome on the battlefield.
Titan W 06-15-05, 04:19 PM	Actually the Zanbatau wasn't really used, due to it's near requirement for a two-man team, this was impractical and it was far longer than the sword (It would weigh in at 20 pounds balnced twards the blade) Sanosuke's sword wasn't an actual Zanbatou, they were actaully jsut vastly oversized variants of tht traditional design. 6' is a Tachi as stated before...
Wolf72 06-15-05, 05:50 PM	I think you're talking about the tachi. It's basically a gigantic katana that was used for the same reason the Scots used the claymore-sheer killing power. If you're using it against mounted people a lot, you might instead want to opt for a pu dao, or horse-chopping knife. This was a big ol' sword used to chop the legs out from under a horse. I would use a masterwork greatsword with crit 18-20/x2 and make it exotic. Tachi is kind of the Japenese version of the European longsword, ie it covers lots of types of blades. From what I've read the tachi is also the predecessor to the katana, it's almost the same thing (if I were going to make it a seperate weapon I'd make it a MW longsword the same way the katana is a MW bastard sword).
Titan W 06-15-05, 06:10 PM	Actually not quite... it was a predicessor yes however it was worn differently (A big deal for amny techniques) and was several inches longer, the Ko-Dachi is actaully closer to a short-sword then a wakazashi, which can have a blade up to about 18" qualifying it to be either a short or long sword depending on build, a katana was about 36" and a Kodachi up to about 40" however they could be made longer, No-Dachi were fairly longer, so in retrospect it's probably an No-Dachi. Then there is the O-Dachi and finaly Zanbatou in terms of size, however the O-Dachi made alter for show became almsot as long as some of the original Zanbatou. A Tachi was worn hainging (Kenshin in RK) while a katana was fed straight backwards through the Obi and crossed so the blade was draw from below the wakazashi/Ko-Dachi. This led to different styles with regard to Iaijutsu and the slightly longer reach led to very slightly diffent methods of using the blade in combat.
Wolf72 06-15-05, 08:28 PM	wolf hears: ... achi ... achi ... achi wolf says: Salud! I kneel to your achi knowledge! :D
Enterik 07-07-05, 04:20 PM	...or grass cutting sword resides in Atsuta Jingu. It is one of the three sacred regalia of the Imperial Family. The blade/cutting edge of the replica is over 6' long, closer to 7', which is approximately twice the length of a O-Dachi, thus dwarfing even the Kashiwa Tachi. I have a picture of myself 'wielding' the thing (no doubt a faux pas considering I am not of imperial descent). I'd post it if I could figure out where to put the image and how to format the link. If you're interested PM and I'll mail the picture to you. So I'm thinking a non-mythic version of similar dimensions would be the equivalent of an O-Dachi for large humanoids which would bump it up from 2d6 (7hp) to 3d6 (10.5hp) base damage before strength bonus.
TheMagister 07-07-05, 04:29 PM	So, what's a "Daikatana"? I'm not blade connossueir, so I'm asking in pure ignorance. TM
Enterik 07-07-05, 04:42 PM	So, what's a "Daikatana"? I'm not blade connossueir, so I'm asking in pure ignorance. TM Daikatana is a flop, first person shooter made by ion storm. In that game, the Daikatana apparently allows time travel. The name for the blade comes from the designers own homebrew D&D campaign here in America :rolleyes: But I'm sure the name tested well as compared to O-Dachi :rolleye2:
Edymnion 07-08-05, 01:25 AM	A daikatana is an actual sword, and is what I thought of when I read the first post. In japanese, dai essentially means "large". A daikatana is a "large katana". Looks like a katana, but with a longer blade and handle. Again, it would use Greatsword stats. Remember, weapon equivolency is your friend. Just because you can think of a new weapon does not mean it has to have it's own unique stats (which is pretty much impossible, as all the balanced weapon stats have already been uses, so you're going to copy a weapon somewhere no matter what you do). If its a really big sword, you just use the Greatsword stats for it. If its a small stabby sword, its a shortsword. If its a medium length sword, its a longsword, no matter what shape it is, or how many edges it has sharpened.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-08-05, 02:10 AM	That's 3.0. 3.5 would just call this a Large bastard sword and be done with it. Thus making it the only weapon to appropriately be handled with the 3.5 sizing system. Heh, Full blade is a Large Bastard sword, but heaven help us if someone calls a short sword a halfling longsword. :rolleyes: Also, if you just want the flavor of a bigass (tm) Katana/No-daichi, just describe it that way, then tell the DM that you don't need the mechanical benifits. Trust me, he'll love you for it.
Fenris Frost 07-08-05, 02:14 AM	A nagamaki is more of a polearm than it is a sword. I thought that was a naginata? Essentially a spear with a swordblade in place of a spearhead.
Tenzhi 07-08-05, 02:44 AM	I thought that was a naginata? Essentially a spear with a swordblade in place of a spearhead. IIRC, a nagamaki is about half blade and half handle (5 to 6 1/2 feet long total). Whereas a naginata is more like a spear with a slightly longer curved blade, and a yari is more like (if not identical to) a conventinal spear.
Enterik 07-08-05, 09:44 AM	...if you just want the flavor of a bigass (tm) Katana/No-daichi, just describe it that way, then tell the DM that you don't need the mechanical benifits. Trust me, he'll love you for it. Why not just say Large No-Dachi 3d6 + (1.5 x Str Bonus)? Or is that what you are saying :confused:
Enterik 07-08-05, 09:48 AM	IIRC, a nagamaki is about half blade and half handle (5 to 6 1/2 feet long total). Whereas a naginata is more like a spear with a slightly longer curved blade, and a yari is more like (if not identical to) a conventinal spear. I thought a nagamaki was raw Naga flesh wrapped in sweet rice and seaweed? :yuck:
Tenzhi 07-09-05, 12:47 AM	Why not just say Large No-Dachi 3d6 + (1.5 x Str Bonus)? Or is that what you are saying :confused: He's saying the extra damage isn't necessary. The reason is because the Hulk is 7' tall. What does that have to do with anything, you ask? Pick up a Hulk comic some time. His relative size as drawn makes him seem more like 8-10' tall. But officially he's only 7' tall. The same sort of exaggerations occur in anime, manga, japanese RPGs, etc. Just because that sword appears to be 7' long doesn't mean that realistically it is. Thus - just describe your sword as being whatever size and accept the fact that it's statted as a greatsword.
TyraaloftheFist 07-09-05, 08:05 AM	I'd probably go with a masterwork Fullblade, which is essentially just a Large-size Bastard sword...the overall size would, I think, be somewhere in the six foot range, maybe a little bigger. Sephiroth's seven-foot long sword, the Masamune in the game (named after a swordsmith...not a whole separate type of sword unto itself, really), was an o-dachi or no-dachi, as far as I know (interchangeable prefix...o- means large or something like that, and no- means field, dachi meaning sword, I think). So, yeah, you could have a six foot long katana. Daikatana could also be used as the name of it, if o-dachi or no-dachi don't sound good. Dai means big or grand or something like that, and katana...that means sword, as far as I know. So, you could have a Grand Sword. Yeah...daikatana sounds better to me.
Enterik 07-10-05, 01:23 AM	He's saying the extra damage isn't necessary. The reason is because the Hulk is 7' tall. What does that have to do with anything, you ask? Pick up a Hulk comic some time. His relative size as drawn makes him seem more like 8-10' tall. But officially he's only 7' tall. The same sort of exaggerations occur in anime, manga, japanese RPGs, etc. Just because that sword appears to be 7' long doesn't mean that realistically it is. Thus - just describe your sword as being whatever size and accept the fact that it's statted as a greatsword. Obviously, I disagree, Nodachi's have been statted, and the grass cutting sword (which was really forged and is extant) is twice that. So it seems like a no brainer to advance the Nodachi to a Nodachi for a large creature nd increase the damage accordingly. Simple, within the game mechanic. I guess if you only have core books and no computer greatsword might be a reasonable patch for someone without oriental adventures. I know you're playing devil's advocate, but I just don't see why the greatsword solution is preferable :confused: but less so...
Tenzhi 07-10-05, 01:50 AM	As I recall, the no-dachi's stats in OA are, for all intents and purpose, identical to the greatsword in the first place. There's no need to scale it up, because the sword being modelled after is only stylized that way. The Kusanagi (Grasscutter or Snakesword depending on who you ask) sword currently in existence is said to be 84 cm (which is less than 3') long and is rumoured to be a replica replacing a sword that was supposedly lost at sea. The Kusanagi sword of legend was more likely a short double-edged sword than anything resembling a katana.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-10-05, 01:52 AM	I know you're playing devil's advocate, but I just don't see why the greatsword solution is preferable :confused: but less so... I'm the devil?
Tenzhi 07-10-05, 02:09 AM	I'm the devil? You didn't know? ;)
Enterik 07-10-05, 11:20 AM	As I recall, the no-dachi's stats in OA are, for all intents and purpose, identical to the greatsword in the first place. There's no need to scale it up, because the sword being modelled after is only stylized that way. The Kusanagi (Grasscutter or Snakesword depending on who you ask) sword currently in existence is said to be 84 cm (which is less than 3') long and is rumoured to be a replica replacing a sword that was supposedly lost at sea. The Kusanagi sword of legend was more likely a short double-edged sword than anything resembling a katana. Well, as I've said in a previous post, I've been to Atsuta Jingu and the replica they have on display has a real forged 'katana' style blade with more than 6 feet of edge. So it is possible, even if humans can't wield it effectively, the question is how to make it work in the game, and there are rules for scaling up weapons that don't require one to resort to weapon equivalency. Since it is bigger than either a Nodachi or Greatsword one still needs to progress the damage to avoid penalizing the wielder. There'd be at least the standard -2 size penalty and probably a -4 exotic weapon penalty and some sort of penalty to draw and ready unless one is large (tall) sized. [even so, medium sized samurai frequently had an assistant the help draw an O-dachi from its scabbard]. My question to you, Mr. Advocate, and others supporting the Greatsword idea is as follows...if you're going to stat it out as a greatsword then why bother with the extra feet of edged blade? Why even make the pretense?
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-10-05, 04:23 PM	Mr. Advocate? Wow. To answer your oh so bait free question ( :rolleyes: ), its a matter of style.
Manyfist 07-10-05, 04:38 PM	So, the answer is a No-Dachi... thanks for every thing.... I'll look into the no-dachi blade.
Alchahest 07-10-05, 04:39 PM	Since it is bigger than either a Nodachi or Greatsword one still needs to progress the damage to avoid penalizing the wielder. There'd be at least the standard -2 size penalty and probably a -4 exotic weapon penalty and some sort of penalty to draw and ready unless one is large (tall) sized. [even so, medium sized samurai frequently had an assistant the help draw an O-dachi from its scabbard]. wait. why is it that we have to scale up damage so that this hugely ridiculous sword doesn't cause a penalty? it's TOO BIG. the reason you would have to scale it up to get better damage is the same reason you'd have a harder time swinging it. and in addition. a longer sword doesn't always equal better. a Katana could easily snap if it's that long and you strike anything that isn't soft flesh. and aiming for those soft spots are going to be alot harder with the end flapping around. come on. there's simple physics at work here.
Enterik 07-10-05, 07:33 PM	wait. why is it that we have to scale up damage so that this hugely ridiculous sword doesn't cause a penalty? it's TOO BIG. the reason you would have to scale it up to get better damage is the same reason you'd have a harder time swinging it. and in addition. a longer sword doesn't always equal better. a Katana could easily snap if it's that long and you strike anything that isn't soft flesh. and aiming for those soft spots are going to be alot harder with the end flapping around. come on. there's simple physics at work here. We have to scale up the damage because the weapon is larger, but not too large for a large sized creature to wield. The penalties experienced by a medium sized wielder reflect the very concerns you are expressing, though you might argue the penalties are not large enough. Perhaps such a behomoth blade would be easier to sunder, but then one expects all the dimensions to be increased, not just the length. In order to compensate for such a 'foible' As I've said before, D&D doesn't have the resolution required to adjust blades to relfect reality. There is a certain granularity to the system, and I'm reasonably sure that monstrous Samurai need big blades, so it is not an unreasonable idea to increase the damage. In the end, ManyFist decided to go with a No-Dachi, even if it isn't really the 6' blade he asked for, it must fill the bill, and that's what matters.
Enterik 07-10-05, 07:38 PM	Mr. Advocate? Wow. To answer your oh so bait free question ( :rolleyes: ), its a matter of style. Fair enough... Maybe I should have used smileys to reduce the perception that I was being sardonic, when in fact I was trying to be witty. :embarrass
Tenzhi 07-12-05, 10:10 PM	My question to you, Mr. Advocate, and others supporting the Greatsword idea is as follows...if you're going to stat it out as a greatsword then why bother with the extra feet of edged blade? Why even make the pretense? What extra feet? A greatsword is just a two-handed sword that does 2d6 damage - it has no set length. It could represent anything from a landsknecht's two-handed flamberge to Cloud's sword from FF7. This notion of size is all in your head.
Enterik 07-12-05, 11:18 PM	What extra feet? A greatsword is just a two-handed sword that does 2d6 damage - it has no set length. It could represent anything from a landsknecht's two-handed flamberge to Cloud's sword from FF7. This notion of size is all in your head. What's the longest flamberge you've ever seen? The title of the post specifically asks about a 6' katana, which is substantially longer than a No-Dachi and hence also longer than a great sword. I've seen such a sword. I thought the only way to make it a viable concept would be to bump a No-dachi up to a No-Dachi for a large sized creature, this advances the damage but comes with penalties for smaller wielders. In the end, the original poster went for the No-dachi, so the 6' concept, which is what I was basing my comments upon, wasn't necessary, and indeed a greatsword equivalence could have been used. So relax, the case was settled out of court... :)
Willie the Duck 07-12-05, 11:33 PM	I think that's the point. Why should people be able to keep on saying, "but I've seen a weapons that are even larger and more imposing, and as such deserve more damage." Even if they let it be balanced by EWP requirements or to-hit penalties, why should we keep tacking on higher levels of overcompensation. Why can't the greatsword (or monkey gripped large greatsword/fullblade, if you hit non-core sources) be the biggest sword weildable? Obviously you should be able to envision your greatsword as bigger than the greatsword you saw in this source or that, but why should the rules keep adding new ones?
Tenzhi 07-13-05, 12:38 AM	What's the longest flamberge you've ever seen? The title of the post specifically asks about a 6' katana, which is substantially longer than a No-Dachi and hence also longer than a great sword. I've seen such a sword. I thought the only way to make it a viable concept would be to bump a No-dachi up to a No-Dachi for a large sized creature, this advances the damage but comes with penalties for smaller wielders. In the end, the original poster went for the No-dachi, so the 6' concept, which is what I was basing my comments upon, wasn't necessary, and indeed a greatsword equivalence could have been used. So relax, the case was settled out of court... :) I've seen No-Dachi that were ~6' long. I've seen flamberge that were over 6' long (indeed, as I recall Museum Replicas and Knight's Edge were both offering landsknecht flamberge replicas of about that length). Cloud's sword would probably be slightly longer than that and considerably wider. They'd all be considered greatswords. There are as many variations of two-handed sword as there are one-handed swords and you don't need a million different game mechanics to represent all of them.
Enterik 07-13-05, 11:37 AM	I've seen No-Dachi that were ~6' long. Blade and edge? I've seen flamberge that were over 6' long (indeed, as I recall Museum Replicas and Knight's Edge were both offering landsknecht flamberge replicas of about that length). Cloud's sword would probably be slightly longer than that and considerably wider. They'd all be considered greatswords. Really? Do you think a medium human can wield those effectively without penalty? Most two-handed flamberge aren't that long, are they? If a player asked me, I'd say a flamberge that big was a large greatsword and be done with it, otherwise I wouldn't bother describing it as 6' long. And if the character had combat expertise I might even increase the maximum shift from attack to Ac to 6 to reflect the purported parrying benefit of such a blade, but make it an exotic weapon if you want that capability (hence not really worth it), otherwise it's a greatsword with a 4' blade and extra construction costs. [There are as many variations of two-handed sword as there are one-handed swords and you don't need a million different game mechanics to represent all of them. True enough, but when a sword variation exceeds the normal boundry of what a person can wield, it needs to advance to a large weapon. I suspect if we were talking about a halfling greatsword we wouldn't be having this debate, we would just accept that it is smaller and does less damage. In the end, it is up to the DM, and neither you or I are the DM, obviously we'd do it differently in our own games, which is fine by me, were I in your game, I'd abide by your house rules and not even bother to ask for a non-standard weapon. :weep: ;)
Alchahest 07-13-05, 01:27 PM	Flamberges may have reached some great lengths, but nearly half of the sword's length is handling surface. There's a portion of the blade that is left unsharpened, and wrapped with leather, so the user can adjust his grip while close-quarter fighting. also, I think Flamberge was a sword of Charlemagne's, and what we're discussing are Flammards.
Enterik 07-13-05, 03:56 PM	I think that's the point. Why should people be able to keep on saying, "but I've seen a weapons that are even larger and more imposing, and as such deserve more damage." Even if they let it be balanced by EWP requirements or to-hit penalties, why should we keep tacking on higher levels of overcompensation. Why can't the greatsword (or monkey gripped large greatsword/fullblade, if you hit non-core sources) be the biggest sword weildable? Obviously you should be able to envision your greatsword as bigger than the greatsword you saw in this source or that, but why should the rules keep adding new ones? Then one wonders why they saw fit to extend the medium weapon damage up to 2d10 in the SRD, which is two steps over 2d6, or why they even included a set of equivalencies for large sized weapons, since real life medium sized humans can't wield them :rolleyes:
Willie the Duck 07-13-05, 11:35 PM	Then one wonders why they saw fit to extend the medium weapon damage up to 2d10 in the SRD, which is two steps over 2d6, or why they even included a set of equivalencies for large sized weapons, since real life medium sized humans can't wield them :rolleyes: I found that neither helpful nor adding to the conversation. The problem is that every time someone talks about their new 'uber-leet super sized sword' that may or may not have some relation to a historical/replica sword that may or may not ever have been used in combat, someone else has to find an even bigger blade from the culture they prefer to think of as the coolest. If people want to have two levels of "post greatswords" -- one that does 2d8 but requires either an ewp or a -2 to hit and another that does 2d10, but requires both, I have no problem with that. Just make the two types (add in a 'less damage but higher crit range' variation for curved blades) and make all the daikatanas, flamberges, and whatever elses fit within those profiles. What I have a problem with is the "arms race" of competing cultural and movie reference blades that look more and more like a "mine's bigger" joke.
Tenzhi 07-14-05, 01:52 AM	Really? Do you think a medium human can wield those effectively without penalty? What was the source of the sword - was it being wielded effectively there? If so that's all that matters. Whether it would work that way in real life doesn't matter when the original sources are fictional. True enough, but when a sword variation exceeds the normal boundry of what a person can wield, it needs to advance to a large weapon. And when your source material includes mythology and anime, the definition of "normal boundry of what a person can wield" is altered by exaggeration and stylization.
Vahenir 07-14-05, 03:19 AM	Here's something that might make this all easier: Is your uber-leet-superninja-cyborg-jamesbond-BrockSamson weapon so big that it would require a giant to wield it - IN TWO HANDS? If the answer is yes - it is a Large Greatsword. If the answer is no, it is a Medium Greatsword - get over it. I will never understand the obsession with making massive, ludicrous swords with huge amounts of damage dice. If you need two hands to wield it, and don't want to suffer penalties while using it - it's a greatsword or a 'falchion.' Simple as that. (To make it more fun, you could call all katana 'scimitars' stat-wise, then make bastard scimitars in the same vein as the bastard sword for longer katana-type sword, and then use the 'falchion' stats for the biggest of the big katana-like blades. That would also keep the concept of separate types of stats for straight and curved blades.)
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-14-05, 09:39 AM	That would also keep the concept of separate types of stats for straight and curved blades.) And for the longest time, I thought I was the only one capable of noticing this. I love you, man.
Enterik 07-14-05, 11:16 AM	I found that neither helpful nor adding to the conversation. It wasn't meant to be helpful. The point that I was sarcastically reiterating was that a mechanic exists for statting out swords that are for large sized creatures or that do more damage than a greatsword. Given your opinion below, it's no wonder you didn't find that info helpful since you've obviously grokked the concept that bigger things do more damage. The problem is that every time someone talks about their new 'uber-leet super sized sword' that may or may not have some relation to a historical/replica sword that may or may not ever have been used in combat, someone else has to find an even bigger blade from the culture they prefer to think of as the coolest. Manyfist asked about a 6' katana. I've seen one. I doubt that it was ever used in combat since it is not the original AND I doubt a medium sized human could wield it effectively without extensive training (meaning exotic weapon proficiency). That blade is twice as long as a normal katana, and a large creature is twice as big as a medium creature, so it is reasonable to simply call it a large katana. If people want to have two levels of "post greatswords" -- one that does 2d8 but requires either an ewp or a -2 to hit and another that does 2d10, but requires both, I have no problem with that. Just make the two types (add in a 'less damage but higher crit range' variation for curved blades) and make all the daikatanas, flamberges, and whatever elses fit within those profiles. If we go by the illustrations in the PHB3.0 which represent the average weapon format for each category, then I agree that two large than greatsword categories is also a viable option for advancing longer blades (5'+ and 6'+ perhaps), also note that 3d6 (avg 10.5) for my large-sized katana falls between 2d8 (avg 9) and 2d10 (avg 11) for your 'postgreatswords' concept, so the difference isn't all that dramatic when it comes to damage. What do you think of their being a strength requirement to wield such blades without penalty? Or is there just no way to get around the arkwardness of excessive length that causes your proposed -2 to hit penalty? What I have a problem with is the "arms race" of competing cultural and movie reference blades that look more and more like a "mine's bigger" joke. That is not my intention, I just happen to have visited the right Jingu to see such a sword in person. The rest is a debate over the most appropriate way to stat such a blade, some want things to end at greatsword, even though the tables suggest there is room for increase. I have no problem with that, I do disagree, but it's their perogative. And I don't think anyone should have a problem with my solution, since they won't be playing in my game anyways. The only complaints seem to be based on issues of [DMing] style. For the purposes of this thread, the point is moot, since No-Dachi seems to have fit the bill for Manyfist.
Enterik 07-14-05, 12:39 PM	What was the source of the sword - was it being wielded effectively there? If so that's all that matters. Whether it would work that way in real life doesn't matter when the original sources are fictional. Well, D&D does make some pretense towards sensible physics on the prime material plane, thus it seems reasonable to use both real life and fiction as guides, to arrive at some compromise solution. In fact, I find myself favoring willy the duck's idea if we are going to allow that greater- and greatest-sword categories are appropriately sized for medium wielders. And when your source material includes mythology and anime, the definition of "normal boundry of what a person can wield" is altered by exaggeration and stylization. ...mythology, anime AND D&D, so it's okay to advance past greatsword, within limits. I am inclined to assert that one shouldn't be able to slash, without penalty, with a blade longer than you are tall, but then that is where my suspension of disbelief ends. MY source material is merely a viewing of an actual sword, which I subsequently found had mythological associations that were co-opted by anime. Nothing more. As I've said elsewhere, I doubt it could be wielded by medium-sized humans without penalty or, as willy the duck suggested, exotic weapon proficiency. It is bigger, both weight and length, so it does more damage, just as a greatsword(2d6;7hp) > bastard(1d10;5.5hp) > Longsword (1d8;4.5hp).
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-14-05, 12:47 PM	I've just got to ask why you need the extra damage dice. If you just want a bigger sword, why not just use the Greatsword stats and describe it as a massive sword? Needing more or bigger dice to justify a stylistic change smacks of min-max and leads to things like the BoED.
The Vampire 07-14-05, 12:55 PM	Would not a 6 foot plus katana be treated as the full blade from sword and fist. I would suggest (sorry for the spelling) a masumune something like sephiroths blade from the final fanasy series.
Enterik 07-14-05, 01:16 PM	I've just got to ask why you need the extra damage dice. If you just want a bigger sword, why not just use the Greatsword stats and describe it as a massive sword? I don't need them. I all ever asserted is that a 6' blade was bigger than a No-Dachi and hence should do more damage following the precedent set by the standard sword series or the increasing wielder size concept. To me, those are the two reasonable descriptions of a blade 6' long. Without the extra damage, why bother calling it a 6' sword? So you can increase your encumbrance? So you can pretend you're a sword wielding rabbit? In the end, the original poster did choose a No-Dachi, so he was satisfied with that solution. But that doesn't obviate the discussion for general purposes. Needing more or bigger dice to justify a stylistic change smacks of min-max and leads to things like the BoED. Huh?! What?! So the only difference between a bastard sword and greatsword is stylistic? In the end style may have been the original posters intention, but that still doesn't mean a No-Dachi is equal to a 6'+ katana type blade...at least to me By the way, I only use the SRD3.5 and don't know if I even understand the min-max cliche. :embarrass
Vahenir 07-14-05, 03:21 PM	And for the longest time, I thought I was the only one capable of noticing this. I love you, man. Aww. I love you too. Here: :cookie: Have a cookie, sweetums. I all ever asserted is that a 6' blade was bigger than a No-Dachi This mystical 6' blade of yours (I assume you mean a 6-foot cutting surface) is also completely unwieldy and was almost certainly ceremonially, like some European swords of similar size, rather than being actually used in combat. As long as we understand that - we can keep going: Without the extra damage, why bother calling it a 6' sword? Stylistic. The same way I make a point to describe the design of my character's longsword, or the exact length of his mail hauberk. It's not NECESSARY. It doesn't effect anything if his hauberk is full-sleeved and hangs to the knee or half-sleeved and hangs to the thighs. But I make a point of describing it anyway. That's half the fun of roleplaying. It's abusive and silly to think that you need something special in game terms just because you found something interesting like a 6' sword. Yippee. Describe it and move on with your greatsword, Mr. Ninja. Ya know.. my cowboy boots are really comfortable for me. If I put my character in a pair of cowboy-like boots, I should be able to have a bonus to his base speed, since it's easier to move than with a 'Medieval' boot. Not everything needs extra stats for it to be fun. So you can increase your encumbrance? How do you figure? A greatsword, no matter how you describe it, has the same weight in the Player's Handbook. Don't be silly. So you can pretend you're a sword wielding rabbit? Actually, if you really wanted to - you could. The same way someone with the stats of a human can 'pretend' that they have distant Elven blood - or something else. Theoretically, if it's okay with your DM, you can use whatever stats you want and just say you're a talking, sword-slinging rabbit. Roleplaying game, champ. So the only difference between a bastard sword and greatsword is stylistic? Actually, the bastard sword is a total mistake in 3rd Edition, as its niche is already completely covered by the longsword. Describe your longsword with a slightly longer hilt. There - it's now a bastard sword with no extra mechanics needed. But the difference between a longsword (which is really all a bastard sword is anyway, even in the game) and a greatsword is quite large, considering size, weight, balance, and mode of use, etc. In that sense, your 'weapon idea' is no different from a falchion. It's big, weight is probably similar (not the same), and size is acceptable range - balance is probably similar as they are both long cutting blades - and mode of use is a heavy two-hand swing. Your weapon is a falchion. Not a historical falchion, mind you - but a falchion as they appear in D&D. In the end style may have been the original posters intention, but that still doesn't mean a No-Dachi is equal to a 6'+ katana type blade...at least to me I'd certainly like to know how.. since a No-Dachi -is- a 6-foot katana-like sword. Seems like you're just fishing for the go-ahead to use ludicrous amounts of damage dice for a weapon idea already covered by a pretty standard martial weapon. (Personally I still think it should be a Falchion - but according to the weapon equivalency charts in OA and A&EG - it's a greatsword). If I make a character that wields a 16th Century German Two-Hand Sword - then his weapon is statistically identical to a greatsword. It doesn't matter than my sword is 6'2 tall, and probably would more accurately be dealing thrusting attacks primarily, not cutting attacks. But the fact remains - it's a big two hand sword. That makes it a greatsword (or falchion).
narukagami 07-14-05, 08:28 PM	To burst some bubbles on some comments of this thread. The Kusanagi no tsurugi (http://www.uwec.edu/philrel/shimbutsudo/images/kusanagi.jpg), is definatly a straight edged sword. Also, Atsuta Jingu's webpage (http://www.atsutajingu.or.jp/eng/tre/index.htm) makes no mention of the sword actually ever being on display, and is reported to refuse to show anyone any evidence it is even there, or even a replica of it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusanagi#Replica_Theory) (As per the Replica Theory article) Perhaps you mistook it for the Kondo-Tsurumaru-mon-chirashi Hyogo-Kusari-Tachi, Sugari no Ontachi, or one of the MANY other swords also on display there? Edit: I'd also like to mention the name literally translates to "parting two-edged straight blade."
Willie the Duck 07-14-05, 09:51 PM	I've just got to ask why you need the extra damage dice. If you just want a bigger sword, why not just use the Greatsword stats and describe it as a massive sword? Needing more or bigger dice to justify a stylistic change smacks of min-max and leads to things like the BoED. Okay, there I have to jump to the other side of the argument. There is a room for the Exotic Weapon = martial weapon that deals 1-2 pts more damage in the game. They made Exotic Weapons that upped your one handed damage by one point (such as bastard swords do for longswords), but failed to do so for two handed weapons. Since you are effectively using up a feat to increase your damage no more than weapon specialization does (and make you less likely to find your favored weapon type in random treasure), I hardly call this a min-maxxer's dream come true. Not even most fighters would bother, a feat is just too easy to put to better uses. I dislike the needing more and bigger dice because it feels like a series of one-upsmanship, not because it is a min-max attempt.
Vahenir 07-15-05, 12:10 AM	I would say 'powergaming' is a better term than 'min-maxing.' Because 'one-upsmanship' and 'powergaming' are pretty much the same thing - as they both amount to this: "Mine does more damage and is bigger."
Tenzhi 07-15-05, 02:36 AM	I'd certainly like to know how.. since a No-Dachi -is- a 6-foot katana-like sword. If he's talking about a 6' blade, however, that *is* a bit larger than most No-Dachi (whose blades are generally just over 4' long with an overall length of 6'). Weapon sizes are properly based on the size of the wielder, however, so an NBA player's no-dachi might have an approximately 6' long blade. Since NBA players are assumably human, humans are assumably medium size, there is no game-statistic difference between a 5' human's greatsword and a 7' 10" human's greatsword, and a no-dachi's game statistics are the same as a greatsword's - even "realistically" the 6' bladed katana-like sword would have the same stats as a greatsword.
Vahenir 07-15-05, 04:05 AM	Agreed. We're saying the same thing - I just left out expounding on an NBA reference to justify my statement. ;) 6-foot-blade no-dachi = greatsword or falchion, whatever your preference is - since they're both two-hand swords. There, done.
Nerdloremaster 07-22-05, 02:22 PM	Note: Masamune is a school of sword crafting. These are the supposedly "official" rules from A&Eg Tanto: dagger Wakizashi: mwk short sword Katana: mwk bastard sword Tachi: non-mwk bastard sword O-dachi: Greatsword Also, the o-dachi was not used often after the invention of the katana, made for speed. The o-dachi would be thrown at an enemy, then the katana would be drawn for the rest of the combat. Tachi was predecessor to the katana. They were slightly longer, and not quite as curved. The katana was developed to be drawn and struck with in one motion (OA's iaijutsu).
Ior 07-22-05, 02:46 PM	The consistent theme in the rules is that if the weapon has a curved blade it does less damage but has a higher threat range. If this no-dachi is the size of a greatsword but with a curved blade, then it is a falchion, pure and simple. If you really have to make it different, you could give it 1d8 damage instead of 2d4, which would also make it worse from an average-damage-per-round perspective.
Alchahest 07-22-05, 08:40 PM	it's laughable that any type of sword is still considered automatically masterwork. I'd almost go so far as to call it racist. the peoples of all different cultures had histories of making excellent weaponry, and of making crappy weaponry. katana != masterwork by default, unless you grant the same for any european style sword. or any other weapon, really.
xver 07-23-05, 02:43 AM	(To make it more fun, you could call all katana 'scimitars' stat-wise, then make bastard scimitars in the same vein as the bastard sword for longer katana-type sword, and then use the 'falchion' stats for the biggest of the big katana-like blades. That would also keep the concept of separate types of stats for straight and curved blades.) Tempting. Very tempting. But the bastard version whould be a katana or tachi in my book. Odachi and "diakatana" would be falchions. Scimitar stats for a kodachi (short tachi). Wakizashi as a curved short sword and curved dagger stats for a tanto. I think I may write up a PDF for such a system. But I'm lazy so I might never get around to it. That makes for five blade sizes (knife, short, one handed, bastard, and two handed) and two blade profiles (strait and curved) for a total of ten blades. That is all we should ever need for swords. All swords, real or fiction, could be handled by this and the sizing rules.
Wolf72 07-23-05, 01:28 PM	it's laughable that any type of sword is still considered automatically masterwork. I'd almost go so far as to call it racist. the peoples of all different cultures had histories of making excellent weaponry, and of making crappy weaponry. katana != masterwork by default, unless you grant the same for any european style sword. or any other weapon, really. racist? I think you're getting to caught up in this ... the 3e team already took into account default high quality (european even) weapons ... they called them masterwork ... if having a specific name for a type of sword is that important to you go ahead and make one up or grab a historical name. the idea of Katana's being always being MW swords is fine ... they are identical to a masterwork bastard sword, just with a cooler sounding and much shorter name. If you don't want katana's in your world to automatically MW then just change them. DnD is all about myth and legend, the Katana's myth of being an excellent sword in crafting and battle is one example ... it's hardly racist.
narukagami 07-23-05, 02:46 PM	I find most arguments for, against, and around stats of a katana can be summed up in two words, **** retentive. (what the word an@l is filtered?) You want to houserule it a scimitar, fine. You want to houserule it non-masterwork by default, do it. You want to make a no-dachi similar to a falchion, go ahead. You want to use the DMG and OA rules, be my guest. Nothing is stopping you from doing things how you want in your campaign, but don't think just because you feel your way is better for you that its the same for everyone else, thats just being egomaniacle. In all honesty, it doesn't have a real western counterpart that will fit it exactly, scimitar may be a curved single edged blade, but its use, construction, and the curve were different enough to make them apples and oranges. A falchion may be similar in curve and edge, but the blade was far to wide to be an equivilant. The curve and single edge set it apart from a bastard sword too. You want to know something? The word katana is just a classification word, meaning "long sword". Thats right, not "longsword", but long (notice the space) sword. As in a sword, that is long. The real name for the particular sword in question, used most commonly in the late Sengoku and Edo Jidai, was called 'dotanuki' or "sword that cuts through torsos". Katana is just widely accepted due to the constant western misuse. EDIT due to irrelivance
Aeolus91 07-23-05, 04:16 PM	For vamp hunter D, I'd make it a +2 keen fullblade, maybe with a bonus against undead. Just read my sig. Edit: The part in the sblock, not the "Dont make me burn ya"
Vahenir 07-24-05, 01:05 AM	And believe me, I'm going to take the word of someone born and raised in Japan who studies his own culture's history when it comes to matters of his culture over the word of some forum. I was born and raised in the United States. Would you believe me if I told you that 'America' really means "place of falling potatoes?" Probably not. Where someone was born and raised has absolutely no relevance on what they're capable of learning. A Japanese history student has just as much chance of being idiotically inaccurate as an American history student, no matter what the topic. One of the most absurds things I've ever heard, and I've heard it many times, is that someone born in a country is somehow more likely to understand its history, or even its language, than someone not born in that country. I know someone from Vietnam that speaks better English than half of the people on these boards apparently do. I know an Irish guy who can tell you -anything- about the American Civil War. I'm American and I know more about the Crusading era than many people born in modern-day Constantinople and Tyre. Place of birth is absolutely irrelevant.
narukagami 07-24-05, 11:33 AM	I was born and raised in the United States. Would you believe me if I told you that 'America' really means "place of falling potatoes?" Probably not. Where someone was born and raised has absolutely no relevance on what they're capable of learning. A Japanese history student has just as much chance of being idiotically inaccurate as an American history student, no matter what the topic. One of the most absurds things I've ever heard, and I've heard it many times, is that someone born in a country is somehow more likely to understand its history, or even its language, than someone not born in that country. I know someone from Vietnam that speaks better English than half of the people on these boards apparently do. I know an Irish guy who can tell you -anything- about the American Civil War. I'm American and I know more about the Crusading era than many people born in modern-day Constantinople and Tyre. Place of birth is absolutely irrelevant. Point, but I still stand by the rest of the post.
Enterik 07-24-05, 03:52 PM	To burst some bubbles on some comments of this thread. The Kusanagi no tsurugi (http://www.uwec.edu/philrel/shimbutsudo/images/kusanagi.jpg), is definatly a straight edged sword. Also, Atsuta Jingu's webpage (http://www.atsutajingu.or.jp/eng/tre/index.htm) makes no mention of the sword actually ever being on display, and is reported to refuse to show anyone any evidence it is even there, or even a replica of it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusanagi#Replica_Theory) (As per the Replica Theory article) Perhaps you mistook it for the Kondo-Tsurumaru-mon-chirashi Hyogo-Kusari-Tachi, Sugari no Ontachi, or one of the MANY other swords also on display there? Edit: I'd also like to mention the name literally translates to "parting two-edged straight blade." I guess this response is directed to me, the one who claims to have been to Atsuta Jingu. I never maintained that I ever saw the authentic imperial regalia, that would be a foolish claim, since only the imperial family is allowed to do so. What I asserted was that there is a replica sword on display at the small museum that they have on the grounds [go in the door and it's right in front of you in a glass case]. Said blade had over 6' of edge. It is wholely possible that I misstook one of the other swords for the Kusanagi, perhaps if you PM me your e-mail address, I can send you the digicam image of the blade to which I am refering. I was never attempting to be authoritative on the authenticity anyways, only that such blades exist, if I misnamed what I saw...Gomenasai :doh: Mainly, I was suggesting that if size (edges blade length) indicates progression in damage (as it seems to do for D&D style straight blades), one could consider such a blade as an [n]O-Dachi for large sized creatures or, as another had posted, a sword for medium sized creatures that does more damage than the standard D&D katana or even the nodachi. That's how I'd rule it in my game. After that initial assertion the remainder of my posts reflect failed Will saves on my part... :P
Willie the Duck 07-24-05, 08:52 PM	I find most arguments for, against, and around stats of a katana can be summed up in two words, **** retentive. (what the word an@l is filtered?) this actually surprises you (the filtered word, that is)? [/QUOTE]You want to houserule it a scimitar, fine. You want to houserule it non-masterwork by default, do it. You want to make a no-dachi similar to a falchion, go ahead. You want to use the DMG and OA rules, be my guest. Nothing is stopping you from doing things how you want in your campaign, but don't think just because you feel your way is better for you that its the same for everyone else, thats just being egomaniacle.[/QUOTE] so, in other words, do whatever you want, just don't tell anyone about it? Seriously, everything on this thread and all the rest (except perhaps rules clarification request threads) are inherently suggestions. There is an assumed, "I think that..." at the beginning of each post. No one has the ability to force their choices on others. We alter each others behavior strictly by the strength of our reasoning. [/QUOTE]In all honesty, it doesn't have a real western counterpart that will fit it exactly, scimitar may be a curved single edged blade, but its use, construction, and the curve were different enough to make them apples and oranges. A falchion may be similar in curve and edge, but the blade was far to wide to be an equivilant. The curve and single edge set it apart from a bastard sword too.[/QUOTE] Okay, the swords in the PHB are generic sword concepts, not discrete European historical weapons. Historically, the Falchion looks almost nothing like the concept presented in the book. There is no one type of blade that corresponds to the concept of a D&D 'longsword' or 'scimitar'. A D&D longsword corresponds to the concept of a straight bladed sword a moderately trained soldier can pick up and weild in one hand. A D&D scimitar is a curved version of that. To call a katana the equivalent of a scimitar is only to imply that 1) katanas are not inherently MW, 2) they can be weilded in one hand without special training, and 3) they fit the model of "curved sword" better than the model of "straight sword". Exact curve doesn't matter (after all, the scimitar and kukri, which historically are exact opposites -- one is concavely curved while the other is convexly curved, use the same mechanic), You want to know something? The word katana is just a classification word, meaning "long sword". Thats right, not "longsword", but long (notice the space) sword. As in a sword, that is long. The real name for the particular sword in question, used most commonly in the late Sengoku and Edo Jidai, was called 'dotanuki' or "sword that cuts through torsos". Katana is just widely accepted due to the constant western misuse. and "chainmail" is redundant and "platemail" incongruous. If we swapped out 'katana' for 'dotanuki' on the whole of this thread, it wouldn't alter the arguments whatsoever. You complain that the rest of this thread is too retentive and then make a distinction this unimportant? The pedant league would consider this too fine a hair to split.
Enterik 07-25-05, 12:18 PM	You want to houserule it a scimitar, fine. You want to houserule it non-masterwork by default, do it. You want to make a no-dachi similar to a falchion, go ahead. You want to use the DMG and OA rules, be my guest. Nothing is stopping you from doing things how you want in your campaign, but don't think just because you feel your way is better for you that its the same for everyone else, thats just being egomaniacle. so, in other words, do whatever you want, just don't tell anyone about it? Seriously, everything on this thread and all the rest (except perhaps rules clarification request threads) are inherently suggestions. There is an assumed, "I think that..." at the beginning of each post. No one has the ability to force their choices on others. We alter each others behavior strictly by the strength of our reasoning. How did you get that from the quote you quoted? Sounded to me like he said everyone is allowed to post an opinion and that he was coming down on those who think that only their way is right. In essense, my reading of the post is "Dude, take a chill pill"