Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AZNsupermarket 09-04-06, 12:28 AM	Where can I find an item that gives +6 enhancement bonus to all ability scores?
PhaedrusXY 09-04-06, 12:28 AM	Belt of Magnificence, Miniature's Handbook.
AZNsupermarket 09-04-06, 12:44 AM	Belt of Magnificence, Miniature's Handbook. Thanks, I always thought that it was some sort of periat found in one of the books in the "complete" series.
demonic_dante 09-05-06, 06:40 PM	how much does that cost?
Seerow 09-05-06, 07:02 PM	200k for the +6.
TrackStar 09-05-06, 07:19 PM	what page is that on? I can't find it.
Nezkrul 09-06-06, 08:42 AM	Don't use that item from the Mini's handbook, it is terribly underpriced by the rules in the back of the DMG. It should actually cost 306,000 gps.
Scion of Coldshard 09-06-06, 09:43 AM	Don't use that item from the Mini's handbook, it is terribly underpriced by the rules in the back of the DMG. Those are guidelines. At some point you have to ask just how useful something is and if the price reflects that. Considering that most characters only really want a stat or two at +6 it is actually rather pricey. What sort of characters will want it over, say, 2 +6 items over their two primary stats? Especially for that cost, ouch! It is a decent size dent even in a 20th level characters wealth. Plus it uses up the belt slot which is really rough for the character who I think would most want it: the monk.
Dheran 09-06-06, 10:01 AM	Pricing is an issue on something that grants bonuses to unrelated abilities. The 3.0 splatbook Sword and Fist (for fighters and monks) has the Headband of Perfect Excellence, which grants +6 to STR, DEX, and WIS -- the three most important abilities for monks, for 180,000 gp. This is a high price, reflecting its value to monks. It's true that the Miniatures Handbook has much of munchkinism about it, but realistically its Belt price reflects that there should be some discount for bonuses to abilities that are less important to a character. The price for +6 to one ability is 36,000 gp; that's the price for a Headband of Intellect +6. Assuming they added a x1.5 multiplier for the other two ability boosts (the "multiple different abilities" surcharge, which is the formula Nezkrul was using) the price for the Headband of Perfect Excellence should only be 144,000 gp, so clearly the price in Sword and Fist is jacked up precisely because this is such a perfect item for monks. The Miniatures Handbook price looks like they just multiplied 36,000 gp times 6 for all the abilities, then dropped it down from 216,000 gp to 200,000: to make it a round number; and to reflect a discount for the "dump stat". So we've got two different multi-ability boosting items, both from older books. One has a price that's over that computed using the "multiple different abilities" surcharge, and the other has a discount below the price computed without any surcharge. Both items have similar body slot affinity problems (headband = mental abilities only; belt = physical abilities only). Now maybe a robe (affinity = multiple effects) of +6 to all stats would be fairly priced at 216,000 gp. -- no discounts, no surcharges.
RaspK FOG 09-06-06, 10:02 AM	Actually, 3 classes get the most benefit from the belt: the paladin, the monk, and, yes, the bard. Since the belt is no more related to most of these ability scores than a circlet or vest, however, such a version with no extra cost is completely viable.
Scion of Coldshard 09-06-06, 10:10 AM	Actually, 3 classes get the most benefit from the belt: the paladin, the monk, and, yes, the bard. Since the belt is no more related to most of these ability scores than a circlet or vest, however, such a version with no extra cost is completely viable. I generally consider those other two to get less out of it than the monk does ;) But even with them, how often will they want to actually drop that chunk of change on it instead of a couple of boosters to their primary character goal and then use the huge amounts of extra cash on other things. As an aside the +6 int part is just about useless for anyone other than a primary caster or possibly someone focusing heavily on lots of int based skills. It doesnt grant extra skill points after all or extra languages so there go most of its ability most of the time.
RaspK FOG 09-06-06, 10:17 AM	As an aside the +6 int part is just about useless for anyone other than a primary caster or possibly someone focusing heavily on lots of int based skills. It doesnt grant extra skill points after all or extra languages so there go most of its ability most of the time. Actually, you must have misunderstood something: it doesn't grant you any skill points retroactively (and you obviously cannot gain any additional known languages, since that is a 1st-level benefit which signifies your amount of training in said tongues). You do gain an additional 3 skill points per level for all level thereafter... This is the only true problem with d20 as it is: Intelligence is the only ability score that is most important to raise at lower rather than higher levels!
Scion of Coldshard 09-06-06, 11:02 AM	Actually, you must have misunderstood something: it doesn't grant you any skill points retroactively (and you obviously cannot gain any additional known languages, since that is a 1st-level benefit which signifies your amount of training in said tongues). You do gain an additional 3 skill points per level for all level thereafter... You might want to check your references again ;) Headband of Intellect: This device is a light cord with a small gem set so that it rests upon the forehead of the wearer. The headband adds to the wearer’s Intelligence score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +2, +4, or +6. This enhancement bonus does not earn the wearer extra skill points when a new level is attained; use the unenhanced Intelligence bonus to determine skill points. Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, fox’s cunning; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6). Emphasis mine. This is a good reason why I feel that the headband is overpriced as compared with other stat boosting items. Other items grant all of the abilities of an increased stat while int is limited to only some of its abilities. Argueably its best overall benefit is left out. Note that the lack of bonus skill points is true for any of the transient int bonuses (or temporary). Inherant bonuses are permanent and so do grant extra skill points.
Seerow 09-06-06, 12:52 PM	Note Charisma gives no benefit except to primary casters as well, so if the Intelligence Headband gets a discount, so does a Charisma Cloak. Don't even try to say skills, Int has enough skills for people who care about them.
Steevo 09-06-06, 01:47 PM	Those are guidelines. At some point you have to ask just how useful something is and if the price reflects that. Considering that most characters only really want a stat or two at +6 it is actually rather pricey. I agree that most characters will only have one or two Abilities that really need boosting (notable exceptions include the monk and paladin). I disagree that this fact makes the item "less useful." After all, this item will give any character the one or two Abilities they really need. Furthermore, having a +6 on the other four Abilities, while perhaps not absolutely essential, can't really be considered useless either. A wizard doesn't really need Strength, but having an extra +3 on hit and damage rolls certainly would be handy those rare times that he gets stuck in melee range. A Fighter or Cleric who's loaded up with gear and heavy armor doesn't really need Dex, but having that extra +3 to AC if he gets caught at night without his armor on will still be damn handy. And so on. I mean, +6 Con? There's no such thing as a character who doesn't get a hefty benefit from +6 Con, regardless of how important the stat is to his class. The mental Abilities are less important to classes that don't use them for spellcasting or whatever, but even then there are a fair number of skills for each of these three Abilities, and having the added +3 to skill checks can come in handy under all sorts of unforeseen circumstances. Basically, what I'm saying here is that the item only gives you more bonuses than you necessarily know what to do with. Having extra bonuses, especially big ones like +6, is nothing to take lightly, even if you don't have an immediate use for them.
Seerow 09-06-06, 02:21 PM	I agree that most characters will only have one or two Abilities that really need boosting (notable exceptions include the monk and paladin). I disagree that this fact makes the item "less useful." After all, this item will give any character the one or two Abilities they really need. Furthermore, having a +6 on the other four Abilities, while perhaps not absolutely essential, can't really be considered useless either. A wizard doesn't really need Strength, but having an extra +3 on hit and damage rolls certainly would be handy those rare times that he gets stuck in melee range. A Fighter or Cleric who's loaded up with gear and heavy armor doesn't really need Dex, but having that extra +3 to AC if he gets caught at night without his armor on will still be damn handy. And so on. I mean, +6 Con? There's no such thing as a character who doesn't get a hefty benefit from +6 Con, regardless of how important the stat is to his class. The mental Abilities are less important to classes that don't use them for spellcasting or whatever, but even then there are a fair number of skills for each of these three Abilities, and having the added +3 to skill checks can come in handy under all sorts of unforeseen circumstances. Basically, what I'm saying here is that the item only gives you more bonuses than you necessarily know what to do with. Having extra bonuses, especially big ones like +6, is nothing to take lightly, even if you don't have an immediate use for them. Okay, now tell me when Intelligence is ever useful to anyone not a Wizard, and when Charisma is useful to anyone besides a Spontaneous Caster/Paladin. Seriously, no class EVER needs ALL of the stats. While most classes will appreciate +3 to Will Saves, they might have prefered a _+5 Cloak of Resistance to that extra +6 Wisdom (which is costing them 36,000 opposed to 25,000 for a bigger benefit). As was pointed out earlier nobody ever wants an enhancement to Intelligence who isn't a Wizard or a Psion. Nobody really -cares- about Charisma. So all three mental stats are all useless except to a handful of classes, and even to those classes, only two of them at most are going to be useful. You'll never find for example, someone who needs both Intelligence and Charisma. It just won't happen.
Arvagor 09-06-06, 02:46 PM	Okay, now tell me when Intelligence is ever useful to anyone not a Wizard, and when Charisma is useful to anyone besides a Spontaneous Caster/Paladin. ... You'll never find for example, someone who needs both Intelligence and Charisma. It just won't happen.Rogue, in both cases. Int - Disable Device, Forgery, Search Cha - Bluff, Disguise, Gather Info, Use Magic Device In fact, I'd argue that the belt is custom made to be a magic item intended for a rogue, as he is a class that is likely to have ranks in skills requiring all abilities (except Con, of course, but everybody can use the HP and Fort save boost).
Steevo 09-06-06, 03:23 PM	Okay, now tell me when Intelligence is ever useful to anyone not a Wizard, and when Charisma is useful to anyone besides a Spontaneous Caster/Paladin. As I already said in my first post, skill checks. Int may not be necessary for anyone other than a wizard, but having the extra +6 doesn't hurt anything and it will never restrain the character. A Charisma bonus likewise can be used for Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc. Maybe not absolutely essential to your character, but certainly not a bad thing. It's an important part of the point I was making that we draw a line between "absolutely imperative for the character" and "can still be handy even if it's not immediately or frequently useful." As I said before, I agree that most classes only have one or two stats that would immediately and frequently benefit from the item, but having the +6 on the other four abilities is still nothing to shake a stick at. Seriously, no class EVER needs ALL of the stats. While most classes will appreciate +3 to Will Saves, they might have prefered a _+5 Cloak of Resistance to that extra +6 Wisdom (which is costing them 36,000 opposed to 25,000 for a bigger benefit) I agree that no class ever needs all the stats. But that doesn't mean that having bonuses to the less important stats is useless. It certainly should not make the item any cheaper simply because it gives more bonuses than the character strictly needs. I agree that a Cloak of Resistance +5 is a much cheaper and more effective way to boost one's saving throws alone, however, the magic item in question does a heck of a lot more than just give a +3 to Will Saves. If Saving Throws are all your character wants improved, then a Cloak of Resistance is obviously the item he should buy, but this belt item improves Saves (not as much as the cloak, but still by a fair amount) in addition to boosting skill checks, AC, attack and damage rolls, initiative, hit points etc, etc, so on and so forth. You're not only paying for one or two improvements, you're paying for a wide variety of improvements, only a few of which are likely of immediate importance. That doesn't mean the other improvements are poop, though. So all three mental stats are all useless except to a handful of classes, and even to those classes, only two of them at most are going to be useful. You'll never find for example, someone who needs both Intelligence and Charisma. It just won't happen. I believe someone else has already pointed out the Rogue. Rogues are all about skills and although this item does not provide more skill points, it does boost all your skill checks.
Seerow 09-06-06, 03:47 PM	As I already said in my first post, skill checks. Int may not be necessary for anyone other than a wizard, but having the extra +6 doesn't hurt anything and it will never restrain the character. A Charisma bonus likewise can be used for Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc. Maybe not absolutely essential to your character, but certainly not a bad thing. But chances are there's one specific person in your group for that sort of thing. You'll have a Rogue or Bard playing the face, you'll have a Wizard who has the knowledge skills. What the hell does a Fighter ever use +6 intelligence for? It's not a bad thing, but it's essentially throwing money away for something you don't need. Seriously, the drawback is that you're getting the +6 to -everything- whether you want it or not. The benefit is that you get the ones you don't particularly want or need at a discount. Seems fine to me. I agree that no class ever needs all the stats. But that doesn't mean that having bonuses to the less important stats is useless. It certainly should not make the item any cheaper simply because it gives more bonuses than the character strictly needs. No, but it should be priced according to its relative value. Seriously, most characters if given a choice would probably take the same item, remove 2-3 of the Mental Stats off it completely (keeping either a casting stat, or Wisdom, or just dumping them all, depending on the character) to save themselves 72,000-96,000 GP. Instead, they get all of it at once, they pay for all of them, but they get a slight discount on the ones they don't want, rather than having to make a custom item for every combination of stats (which could be broken using a similar pricing scheme). I agree that a Cloak of Resistance +5 is a much cheaper and more effective way to boost one's saving throws alone, however, the magic item in question does a heck of a lot more than just give a +3 to Will Saves. If Saving Throws are all your character wants improved, then a Cloak of Resistance is obviously the item he should buy, but this belt item improves Saves (not as much as the cloak, but still by a fair amount) in addition to boosting skill checks, AC, attack and damage rolls, initiative, hit points etc, etc, so on and so forth. You're not only paying for one or two improvements, you're paying for a wide variety of improvements, only a few of which are likely of immediate importance. That doesn't mean the other improvements are poop, though. Actually, it means some of the stats ARE poop. I was comparing the Cloak of Resistance SOLEY to the Wisdom part. So AC? Only if you're a monk. Skill Checks? Spot and Listen are the only ones of importance. Attack and Damage rolls? Maybe certain builds, but certainly not most people. I believe someone else has already pointed out the Rogue. Rogues are all about skills and although this item does not provide more skill points, it does boost all your skill checks. Which skillchecks? Knowledge and Spellcraft? Again, wonderfully useful to a Wizard. Absolutely useless to everyone else, including the Rogue. Hrm... actually lets look at the rogue. Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex). That's all of the skills a Rogue gets. I count 3 that use intelligence, and only one that's useful. Why not just buy a +10 Disable Device item for 10,000 GP? Tripple the bonus for a quarter of the price! Hey, we can even make it slotless for 15,000, still half price and it's not taking up a body slot. Or are you going to tell me +3 to Knowledge(Local) and Decipher Script is worth the extra money? What I'm really saying here is that the discount isn't really all that much. It's a 16,000 GP discount for getting all 6 stats at once. Would you rather have an item that gives 4 Stats of the maker's choice for 144,000? Would that be more balanced? Because really I'm certain that item would be a lot more common to most adventurers. Of course if you're one of the people who thinks a Belt of Magnificence should cost 306,000, I don't know what to tell you. Because that's absurdly overpriced. Seriously, most characters will still just buy the +6 items of stats of their choice because overall it comes out cheaper and with less excess baggage. When something's cheaper it means they can afford it a -lot- easier. a 200k-300k item will only really see any sort of play at level 20.
Scion of Coldshard 09-06-06, 03:48 PM	Note Charisma gives no benefit except to primary casters as well, so if the Intelligence Headband gets a discount, so does a Charisma Cloak. Don't even try to say skills, Int has enough skills for people who care about them. I am afraid that we are talking about two seperate things. It could be that they have the same solution, but my complaint is different ;) I was just saying that stat A does X, Y, and Z normally but the item only gives benefits Y and Z. As such it should not be full price. With int it doesnt give skill points, with strength a corallary could be that a str boosting item didnt give you extra damage with weapons. Reduced effect should equate to reduced cost. Your arguement seems to be that charisma itself doesnt do enough and as such it should not be full priced as compared with other stats to begin with. I can see where you are coming from although I personally feel that the charisma based skills are some of the strongest in the game (plus in my own games I use action points and how many you get is based on your cha somewhat so I feel that cha is balanced in my own game). Mostly this is just an aside to show the differences in the arguements though.
Scion of Coldshard 09-06-06, 03:57 PM	I agree that most characters will only have one or two Abilities that really need boosting (notable exceptions include the monk and paladin). I disagree that this fact makes the item "less useful." The extra money could be spent to greater effect for the character in other areas. How is this not 'less useful'? This item costs over 26% of a 20th level characters wealth and yet most characters wont really use at least half of what it gives. Having the extra stats can potentially be beneficial yes, I never said that it couldnt. I said that a character is likely to really only use about 2 of the stats, give or take, and so could spend a whole lot less money, get the vast majority of the use they were going to get anyway, and be way ahead of the game. As such the extras, which are either worthless or very expensive for the benefit that you might gain, are reduced in price. I see this as making a great deal of sense. Especially as the price of the item is still rather prohibitive. For about the same gp cost of the +4 to all stats item a character could get +6 to the three stats that they care about the most. I would imagine that most characters would go for the second option instead of the first, especially as they are focusing on those stats much, much more. About the only reason I could see to pick up the first is to save slots (which can be important definately) but they are taking a 2 point hit to 3 ability scores to get those slots back while the gain of +4 to the other stats is likely rather useless and/or secondary to them.
Falido 09-06-06, 03:59 PM	Which skillchecks? Knowledge and Spellcraft? Again, wonderfully useful to a Wizard. Absolutely useless to everyone else, including the Rogue. Hrm... actually lets look at the rogue. Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex). That's all of the skills a Rogue gets. I count 3 that use intelligence, and only one that's useful. Why not just buy a +10 Disable Device item for 10,000 GP? Tripple the bonus for a quarter of the price! Hey, we can even make it slotless for 15,000, still half price and it's not taking up a body slot. Or are you going to tell me +3 to Knowledge(Local) and Decipher Script is worth the extra money? What about Appraise (Int) Forgery (Int) Search (Int) count again boy ;)
DarkRhystar 09-06-06, 04:00 PM	A lot of people seem to be discounting the fact that you're getting multiple bonuses in one slot. The utility of being able to use your other slots for other equipment is a huge benefit and not something to underestimate.
Seerow 09-06-06, 04:02 PM	What about Appraise (Int) Forgery (Int) Search (Int) count again boy Nonsense! I'm too awesome to make such oversights, your eyes LIE I tell you LIE! But seriously, 3 more skills 2 of which are just as useless as Decipher Script. We now have 2 decent skills getting a +3, still not worth it to the rogue who'd rather spend that 36,000 on two +10 items and have 16k left for a +4 to a different stat.
Borgon 09-06-06, 04:11 PM	One thing on the cost facter that i havent noticed here (and as i just skimmed through it a bit i may have missed) is even though not all characters may benifit from all the stats to a great digree, an itm like this becomes very benificial to [U]ANY and ALL[U] classes/characters. therfore the price goes up just due to the universal ability.
Seerow 09-06-06, 04:16 PM	A lot of people seem to be discounting the fact that you're getting multiple bonuses in one slot. The utility of being able to use your other slots for other equipment is a huge benefit and not something to underestimate. Okay, I have a Fighter who wants Strength, Dex, and Con. He gains an Amulet Slot, a Glove Slot, and +3 to Will Saves. He doesn't care about skills. He just paid 200,000 GP for 105,000 worth of stuff he actually wants/can use (giving the Will Save bonus a value of ~10k, which is probably overpriced), and can now get an Amulet of Natural Armor IF he has money leftover, or he can get uh... whatever decent gloves are out there that aren't stat boosters. I guess Gloves of Storing? Yay. One thing on the cost facter that i havent noticed here (and as i just skimmed through it a bit i may have missed) is even though not all characters may benifit from all the stats to a great digree, an itm like this becomes very benificial to [u]ANY and ALL[u] classes/characters. therfore the price goes up just due to the universal ability. Yes, any character would enjoy it if it was found as part of random treasure. But 90% of characters aren't going to even bother trying to go out of their way to buy it, because buying individually the stats that they actually care about is cheaper. They do this at the expense of a few equipment slots, but really most characters already do this, and most really useful slots aren't used for stat boosting. (Example, Winged Boots/Boots of Speed are both really useful, and you won't ever lose those to boost your stats)
Merestil Haye 09-06-06, 04:33 PM	On the Headband of Perfect Excellence.The price for +6 to one ability is 36,000 gp; that's the price for a Headband of Intellect +6. Assuming they added a x1.5 multiplier for the other two ability boosts (the "multiple different abilities" surcharge, which is the formula Nezkrul was using) the price for the Headband of Perfect Excellence should only be 144,000 gp, so clearly the price in Sword and Fist is jacked up precisely because this is such a perfect item for monks. The Miniatures Handbook price looks like they just multiplied 36,000 gp times 6 for all the abilities, then dropped it down from 216,000 gp to 200,000: to make it a round number; and to reflect a discount for the "dump stat"..The pricing for the Headband did not include a *1.5 multiplier for the second and third enhancements, because that multiplier was introduced when 3.5 was introduced (along with body-slot adjustments). In 3.0, the multiplier for multiple different abilities was *2. If you remember and apply this, the cost of the Headband comes out to 180k (36 +36*2 + 36*2 = 36*5 = 180). In 3.5 pricing the Headband would still be about that because of body-slot adjustment issues (neither of the physical stats is appropriate for a headband). The price I'd put on the Belt would be about 360k, if I applied all the rules about body-slot affinities and extra unrelated abilities (first enhancement at 36k, two at 54k and three at 72k). I don't think the item is really worth that. The question then becomes, how much discount do you give it? I suppose setting the cost at 200k would be a signal that the item is appropriate for sub-epic play.
Steevo 09-06-06, 04:53 PM	But chances are there's one specific person in your group for that sort of thing. You'll have a Rogue or Bard playing the face, you'll have a Wizard who has the knowledge skills. What the hell does a Fighter ever use +6 intelligence for? This is true most of the time, however, I can say from experience that if the Rogue is the only one who has a decent Search check and his player misses a session due to real life issues, that can suddenly drive home the lack of skill everyone else has. In that sort of situation, having the extra +3 on Int checks can become very useful indeed. Once again, not something that comes up often, but when it does happen it can be darned handy. No, but it should be priced according to its relative value. Seriously, most characters if given a choice would probably take the same item, remove 2-3 of the Mental Stats off it completely (keeping either a casting stat, or Wisdom, or just dumping them all, depending on the character) to save themselves 72,000-96,000 GP. Instead, they get all of it at once, they pay for all of them, but they get a slight discount on the ones they don't want, rather than having to make a custom item for every combination of stats (which could be broken using a similar pricing scheme). Well, considering, as that other poster pointed out, this item is already cheaper than it ought to be by the rules for magic item creation, you are getting a discount for buying it all at once. No, I am not agreeing with him that the item should be more expensive, I think 200K is a reasonable price for an item like this. But making it cheaper still is pushing the limits of balance as well. Actually, it means some of the stats ARE poop. I was comparing the Cloak of Resistance SOLEY to the Wisdom part. So AC? Only if you're a monk. Skill Checks? Spot and Listen are the only ones of importance. Attack and Damage rolls? Maybe certain builds, but certainly not most people. Once again, I reiterate, it's not about being super useful all the time, it's about being handy when you get stuck between a rock giant and a hard place. And Spot and Listen are the only useful skill checks? Maybe if your game is a pure dungeon crawl that consists of little more than moving from one fight to the next. I've played in games where Diplomacy and Bluff have been THE skills to beat. Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex). I've highlighted the Int and Cha based skills that I would consider essential for a Rogue. And this isn't including all the Dex and Wis based skills on the list that are also essential and would also benefit from the belt. In addition to that, there are cross-class skills that, while not essential, would still be handy to have around if another party member falls down or disappears for a session or two. Especially for cross-class, since the number of skill points you can put in there is limited off the bat. What I'm really saying here is that the discount isn't really all that much. It's a 16,000 GP discount for getting all 6 stats at once. Would you rather have an item that gives 4 Stats of the maker's choice for 144,000? Would that be more balanced? Because really I'm certain that item would be a lot more common to most adventurers. That would be balanced if you only want 4 stats. This item (at its printed price) is balanced if you want all six. That's my opinion. Of course if you're one of the people who thinks a Belt of Magnificence should cost 306,000, I don't know what to tell you. Because that's absurdly overpriced. Seriously, most characters will still just buy the +6 items of stats of their choice because overall it comes out cheaper and with less excess baggage. When something's cheaper it means they can afford it a -lot- easier. a 200k-300k item will only really see any sort of play at level 20. No, I don't think it should be 306k. I think it's fine at 200k, or whatever the exact price in the book is. And, for the record, if a character who's less than 20th level wants an item like this, he ought to be paying through the nose for it, imho. Epic level is really the only place where an item like this isn't incredibly powerful, and they can reasonably afford it. I think it's painfully obvious at this point that you and I disagree. If you want to make it cheaper for your players, that's your opinion. I think the price sounds fair for the bonuses it provides. That's my opinion.
ThorGuy 09-06-06, 05:04 PM	Would you rather have an item that gives 4 Stats of the maker's choice for 144,000? Would that be more balanced? Because really I'm certain that item would be a lot more common to most adventurers. Actually, under 3.5 rules, the item you're discussing would cost 198,000 GP. (36,000 + 1.5*36,000*3) So maybe 225,000 for the (Minor) benefits of the other, secondary stats. Obviously, this item is intended for multi-stat dependent characters. (Monks, Paladins, and Bards and the like)
Nom 09-06-06, 07:42 PM	The price I'd put on the Belt would be about 360k, if I applied all the rules about body-slot affinities and extra unrelated abilities (first enhancement at 36k, two at 54k and three at 72k).I think this is an example of where it makes thematic sense to downplay the precise body slot affinities. I'd rule that a belt or vest or perhaps an amulet - something that occupies a central slot that encompasses the entire character - is appropriate for a 'boost all ability scores' item. Even so, the nominal price for +6 to all ability scores is 36k * (1 + 5 * 1.5) = 36k * 8.5 = 306k. The problem with arguments of the form "you don't fully benefit from some of the boosts" is the obvious: "just leave them off". One has to quantify the marginal cost of those "less valuable" boosts given the more valuable ones, and that cost must be greater than zero. It's not that difficult to come up with multiclass builds that will benefit from +6 to everything. The rogue/wizard is the easiest example - such a character can easily use all 6 scores. One might argue that he's likely to have Str 8 (or even 6), but I doubt he'd turn down a free boost from -ve to +ve strength (more load, composite bows, better melee).
Scion of Coldshard 09-06-06, 08:47 PM	The problem with arguments of the form "you don't fully benefit from some of the boosts" is the obvious: "just leave them off". The only problem is that someone could make up a potentially abuseable rule and then abuse it? If you actually have a problem with the 'you dont fully benefit' arguement hopefully you have a real complaint. That one just doesnt fly. It's not that difficult to come up with multiclass builds that will benefit from +6 to everything. Great. At some point every item is better used by one class over another. Can you prove that it is overpowered for its cost as well? A few minor boosts here and there, like carrying capacity as you mentioned, just arent that big of a deal.
Teydyn 09-06-06, 09:35 PM	The question isnt if its overpowered for 200k or not. The question is if ANYONE would buy it for that amount (Never bought in any game i played, even in the Ye-old-magic-shop games). No one buys it? Not overpowered...
Scion of Coldshard 09-06-06, 09:58 PM	The question isnt if its overpowered for 200k or not. The question is if ANYONE would buy it for that amount (Never bought in any game i played, even in the Ye-old-magic-shop games). No one buys it? Not overpowered... Already tried that arguement but it didnt convince a few people, had to switch gears to see if another method would work ;)
ashcat_lt 09-06-06, 11:43 PM	I don't think anybody mentioned the Swashbuckler, Duelist, Bladesinger, or Invisible Blade in the discussion of the Int bonus.
Seerow 09-06-06, 11:47 PM	1) Because it was pointed out earlier anyone can multiclass to make all stats useful. In the cases of those classes, nottaone of them needs Charisma or Wisdom. 2) Swashbuckler-3 level dip class Duelist-Limited by level. Don't need a high int until high levels. Bladesinger - Is a prestige class for a caster and thus already covered. Invisible Blade-Limited by level AND a 5 level class. You probably don't even need an enhancement bonus to get the int you need here.
Arvagor 09-07-06, 12:19 AM	1) Because it was pointed out earlier anyone can multiclass to make all stats useful. In the cases of those classes, nottaone of them needs Charisma or Wisdom. Invisible Blade - Increased Cha increases his Bluff skill, which improves his ability to successfully feint in combat Bladesinger - Entrant is likely a bard before entering the PrC; increased Cha improves spell DCs, # of bonus spells
Bopple 09-07-06, 03:21 AM	1. I have never seen anyone buying a belt of magnificence. Why? Because they already have needed stat increasing items, by the time they can afford to it. Perhaps a rare character based on swashbuckler/monk multiclass, would buy one, if he joins a 20 lvl campaign. 2. Increasing every stat certainly has a merit. But the point is, it's not good enough. Think of the opportunity cost. I'd rather buy other utility items than increase Int for my fighter, or Str for my wizard.
smallfishnova 09-07-06, 03:54 AM	1. I have never seen anyone buying a belt of magnificence. Why? Because they already have needed stat increasing items, by the time they can afford to it. Perhaps a rare character based on swashbuckler/monk multiclass, would buy one, if he joins a 20 lvl campaign. 2. Increasing every stat certainly has a merit. But the point is, it's not good enough. Think of the opportunity cost. I'd rather buy other utility items than increase Int for my fighter, or Str for my wizard. I think a Wizard/Cleric Mystic Theruge will be happy to buy one. Int and Wis for Spell DC, bonus spell, skill checks and Will Save. Cha for more Turn Undead attempt for divine feat or the broken divine metamagic. Con for sure. It also solves the problem that it shares the same body slot of the Wis Item. Dex for attack roll, AC, Reflex Save and the most important initiative. Str really is a useless stat. for a MT, but good at urgent situation. The price of this item is actually cheaper than you buy 6 of them together 36000 x 6 = 216,000gp and you save 5 body slots and 16,000gp!
Bopple 09-07-06, 04:06 AM	I think a Wizard/Cleric Mystic Theruge will be happy to buy one. Int and Wis for Spell DC, bonus spell, skill checks and Will Save. Cha for more Turn Undead attempt for divine feat or the broken divine metamagic. Con for sure. It also solves the problem that it shares the same body slot of the Wis Item. Dex for attack roll, AC, Reflex Save and the most important initiative. Str really is a useless stat. for a MT, but good at urgent situation. The price of this item is actually cheaper than you buy 6 of them together 36000 x 6 = 216,000gp and you save 5 body slots and 16,000gp! Unless you start a 20 lvl campaign, it's not cheaper. Because you have to sell your items at half the price you bought for.
runestar 09-07-06, 04:10 AM	The one who buys it will be one who can benefit most from it. Thus, for that person, the price is a steal. The person who doesn't need such extravagence will simply fall back on cheaper stat-boosting items to boost his more important stats. Thus, it is irrelevant to them. A wizard will probably want to boost only int, con and dex. Thus, he will pay 144000gp for such an item. The rationale that the low cost is justified by the low probability of someone actually being able to benefit fully from it does not hold water, IMO. You have a choice of not buying said item. The dm is not holding a gun to your head and insisting you have to burn 200000gp on it. There is no conceivable drawback to it at all.:eek: If I ever need boosts to 5 or more stats, I will buy aforementioned item. If I only need to boost 4 or less stats, I will go for the cheaper alternative. Even if there is only 1 specific build that will benefit greatly from such a belt, then it more than proves that said item is vastly underpriced and potentially unbalanced.;)
Scion of Coldshard 09-07-06, 10:46 AM	There is no conceivable drawback to it at all. Except possibly having a build that requires good stats in 5+ stats? Likely you are already incredibly underpowered to begin with. The old psion in 3.0 had this issue. He would've loved the belt, but he was so incredibly underpowered because of several issues, including truely horrible MAD. If you feel that it is useless for some and broken for others please post this theoretical broken build, I'd like to see it. If all it does is take a fairly weak build, because it has so much MAD, and makes it viable I'd have to say it is far from overpriced. Most, likely all but a very small subset, characters are better off buying a couple/few stat boosters and using the pile of extra cash for all sorts of other useful items. Even those with major MAD might be better off with something else because the cost of this item is so high.
ardh05 09-07-06, 10:56 AM	Umm... there is one feat that makes Charisma incredibly valuable to unarmored characters(Ninjas, Monks, Spellcasters)... Dashing and Daring. It adds your CHA modifier to your AC as a dodge bonus(disappears when flat footed...) I haven't seen that mentioned, so I thought I would...
Scion of Coldshard 09-07-06, 11:15 AM	Umm... there is one feat that makes Charisma incredibly valuable to unarmored characters(Ninjas, Monks, Spellcasters)... Dashing and Daring. It adds your CHA modifier to your AC as a dodge bonus(disappears when flat footed...) I haven't seen that mentioned, so I thought I would... Never heard of it, where is it from? It must have killer prereqs or sorcs everywhere would be gasping for breath.
runestar 09-07-06, 10:51 PM	Except possibly having a build that requires good stats in 5+ stats? Likely you are already incredibly underpowered to begin with. If the build is weak because it requires you to concentrate in 5 stats, then the belt will be a boon because it makes up for this inherent weakness. The 1st thing which comes to mind is the paladin. High str/dex/con to help in combat, high cha to help with saves and divine feats, high wis for spellcasting. Some sort of monk/swashbuckler/duelist build could work as well. Though kung-fu genius lets you drop wis and you could arguably dump str as well, so you really only need to concentrate in con, dex and int. :P My point still stands: if there is at least 1 build that benefits largely from the belt, then it amply proves that it is undercosted for its benefit. On a side note, if the actual price is 306000gp, don't you have to multiply it further by 10, in compliance with epic item creation rules?:confused:
coppro 09-07-06, 10:54 PM	Int can be useful for roleplaying purposes.
Scion of Coldshard 09-07-06, 11:16 PM	If the build is weak because it requires you to concentrate in 5 stats, then the belt will be a boon because it makes up for this inherent weakness. Exactly. It is an item that helps out a narrow band of characters and it is good for the cost but the cost is more than high enough to be restrictive. My point still stands: if there is at least 1 build that benefits largely from the belt, then it amply proves that it is undercosted for its benefit. This isnt a good point, it isnt even true. Every item should have at least one build that it works well for, but that doesnt mean that it is overpowered. Are +5 swords overpowered because people who use swords benefit largely from them? The belt has a lot of effects, and most people can benefit at least to some degree, but most characters, possibly all, are better off with other items. Even if they couldnt do something better with other items though this thing is still prohibitively expensive. It takes more than a quarter of a 20th level characters wealth. If you go by the guideline of no more than 1/2 of your wealth in any one item then a character cant even get one until level 18 at the earliest, at which point it is more than 45% of that characters wealth. For about the same cost a character could get 3 +6 items and +10 armor or shield. Or 3 +6 items a +7 armor and a +7 shield. On a side note, if the actual price is 306000gp, don't you have to multiply it further by 10, in compliance with epic item creation rules? Nope, nothing about it is epic. You only use the multiplier for epic items. Cost alone is not enough for it to be epic. There are items over 200k in the core which are not epic and at least one in the epic rules themselves which is over 300k and not epic.
runestar 09-08-06, 01:15 AM	Every item should have at least one build that it works well for, but that doesnt mean that it is overpowered. Are +5 swords overpowered because people who use swords benefit largely from them? I don't mind it being overpowered. My gripe is being able to access it at a discounted rate. In dnd, I believe anything can be had so long as you are willing to pay the price for it. There should be nothing stopping me from getting a +100 weapon if I can somehow master enough resources to procure it.
Arvagor 09-08-06, 01:49 AM	Nope, nothing about it is epic. You only use the multiplier for epic items. Cost alone is not enough for it to be epic.It can be; read the opening section on magic items in the ELH: While not truly an artifact, the epic magic item is a creation of such power that it surpasses other magic items. Epic magic items are objects of great power and value. The following are typical characteristics of an epic magic item. In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item. Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5. Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5. Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5. Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus). Grants a natural armor, deflection, or resistance bonus greater than +5. Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6. Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30. Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th. Has a caster level above 20th. Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.(Emphasis mine in both cases.) The only reason this particular belt is not epic is because the writers intentionally lowered the price such that it wouldn't meet that final criteria. If it were priced "correctly", it would be an epic item. There are items over 200k in the core which are not epic and at least one in the epic rules themselves which is over 300k and not epic.I only found 3 core items which come close: Mirror of life trapping Ring of Elemental Command Ring of Spell storing, majorAll three cost exactly 200K apiece. To what items do you refer that are Core and epic? (I'm presuming 'Core' to be the PHB, MM, and DMG.) Edit: Found one item over 200K -- staff of power at 211K -- but that's the only one...
Dheran 09-08-06, 03:45 AM	I don't mind it being overpowered. My gripe is being able to access it at a discounted rate. It's not a discounted rate. Supposedly the official WotC item price sets its fair market value, so an item that boosts all 6 stats by +6 is worth exactly 200,000 gp. Remember, the primary way of determining a new magic item's worth is to compare it to existing items. Running through the formulae is a secondary method. So a Headband of Perfect Excellence is not overpriced at a cost of 180,000 gp for 3 +6 ability boosts optimized for monks (although using the formulae would suggest that it is overpriced), and a Belt of Magnificence is not underpriced at 200,000 gp for 6 +6 ability boosts to anyone not already wearing a belt (although the formulae would suggest otherwise). Now, the obvious problem comes in determining the price for stat-boosting items that affect other sets of abilities. For items that boost 2, 4, or 5 abilities, or items that boost 3 abilities other than those used in a Headband of Perfect Excellence, we've got conflicting precedents. Clearly the price should be no more than 200,000 gp. And probably it doesn't make sense to have a surcharge above the formula amount for 3 stats other than those optimized for monks. But there aren't clear guidelines because WotC went two different ways for the two items most useful for determining item price by precedent.
Grey_Mage 09-08-06, 06:13 AM	Just to show how rediculous the level of tension is in this thread Id like to propose the following: Obsidian Ring of the Moon +6 to all stats and you can get it from the smith in the middle of town, or kill a twinker for it in any diablo game- Price? about 35k gold. Takes up one item slot. Seriously... whats the big deal? If you as the DM think its overpowered for its price then raise the price, if you think its underpowered for its price then lower it, and if your a player and think either- then dont buy it and save yourself the cash for things you do like, or buy it and feel lucky you got such a steal. If you think its balanced... then use it like it is... Why all the fuss?
babysamurai 09-08-06, 06:14 AM	Why all the fuss? A lot of the people on these boards live for the puckering-action.
Merestil Haye 09-08-06, 08:07 AM	It can be; read the opening section on magic items in the ELH:(Emphasis mine in both cases.) The only reason this particular belt is not epic is because the writers intentionally lowered the price such that it wouldn't meet that final criteria. If it were priced "correctly", it would be an epic item. I only found 3 core items which come close: Mirror of life trapping Ring of Elemental Command Ring of Spell storing, majorAll three cost exactly 200K apiece. To what items do you refer that are Core and epic? (I'm presuming 'Core' to be the PHB, MM, and DMG.) Edit: Found one item over 200K -- staff of power at 211K -- but that's the only one...As well as that itemAny double weapon with one head enchanted to +10 and the other to +1 or higher. Any double weapon with one head enchanted to +9 and the other to +5 or higher. Any double weapon with one head enchanted to +8 and the other to +7 or higher. Any enchanted armour or shield with fixed-price abilities that, together with regular armour/shield enhancements, total over 200k.None of these require an individual power to breach the epic thresholds - they all do so only on the basis of cost. Personally, I consider none of these to be Epic. Not one. As for the price multiplier, the epic creation rules have this to say.If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier.It is certainly arguable that price alone should not make the *10 cost multiplier apply. As an aside, there is at least one item in Complete Arcane which is costed at 340k, with no suggestion that it is an epic item or that the *10 multiplier applies. If the multipleir did apply either the item would cost 3,400,000 (which it does not) or the item would be normally priced at 34,000 but for its epic effects. The item is a Greater Rod of Metamagic (Twin Spell), comparable to the Greater Quicken Rod in that it allows you to cast two spells in a turn. 34,000 is too low a price for that sort of effect.