+6 unnamed natural armor for 18000 gp!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

+6 unnamed natural armor for 18000 gp!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cfr1216
02-11-06, 09:10 PM Can this be right? I could have a ring of Alter Self created. This would be a 'continuous' ring that would duplicate the Alter Self spell. The cost (according to the DMG) is -

2 (second level spell) * 3 (spell caster level need to cast the spell) * 2,000gp (cost for a continuous magic item) * 1.5 (multiplier because the Alter Self spell lasts 10 min/level) = 18,000 gp.

Since most characters are huminoid, you could use the ring to change yourself into a troglodyte. A troglodyte has a natural armor of +6. From there, you could get an Amulet of Natural Armor (which stacks with the troglodyte’s natural armor), bracers of defense, ring of protection, .... By the time you're done, you could have a pretty high AC.

Just about any class can benefit from this trick - mages, fighters, monks, .... Things can get even crazier if you can buy a ring of polymorph!

Am I interpreting this correctly?
demonic_dante
02-11-06, 09:23 PM I don't have my Ph in front of me right now but i believe alter self does not grant you any bonuses for what you look like it is purely visual. Otherwise a changeling could do the same thing.
Zherog
02-11-06, 09:27 PM The first sentence in the spell description:

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form.

So, yes- if your DM allows this item in as you've described it, then you're correct. I wouldn't allow it, and I'm a fairly carefree DM.
Wyrd Bearer
02-11-06, 10:12 PM +6 natural armour enhancement (NA bonus squared x 2000 = 72,000 gp)
Multiattack feat (around 10,000 gp)
+4 skill bonus (bonus squared x 100 = 1600 gp)

Add these together, and take into account the extra non-related ability cost (72,000 + 15,000 [10,000 x 1.5] + 2,400 [1,600 x 1.5]).

A continuous ring of +6 natural armour, +4 competence bonus to Hide and the multiattack feat would cost at least 89,400 gp; this is what you'd gain from the alter self spell. I'm not even sure how to price the 2 claw attacks and the bite attack. I suppose I could be generous and say a continual priced alter self spell could duplicate those effects, so that's an extra 27,000 gp (((2nd level spell x 3rd level caster x 2000)1.5 for continuous duration of a 10min/level spell)1.5 for being different abilities).

So a grand total of 116,400 gp for a continuous ring of +6 natural armour, +4 competence bonus to hide, multiattack feat, 2 claw attacks (1d4 damage) and 1 bite attack (1d4 damage). Of course, this doesn't include the +10 to Disguise checks when trying to pass oneself as a troglodyte, but I don't feel like calculating that as I've made my point.

Of course, I feel like I've forgotten something and this ring could quite be more expensive than what I've calculated here.
Esponer
02-11-06, 10:21 PM Wyrd Bearer is essentially correct. If you wanted a ring which permanently transformed you into a troglodyte, you would price it using the guidelines to help you work out the specific benefits, and then alter it via the DM's judgement call.

The formulae you are using are not fixed rules, they are guidelines and they demand that Rule 0 (DM's judgement) be used alongside them. Furthermore, you cannot use some continuous spell calculation if a different but functionally identical set of calculations would give a much greater price.
cfr1216
02-11-06, 10:54 PM Wyrd Bearer is essentially correct. If you wanted a ring which permanently transformed you into a troglodyte, you would price it using the guidelines to help you work out the specific benefits, and then alter it via the DM's judgement call.
It's not a permanent transformation. If the ring is stolen or dispelled, you would lose the ability. But ok, then let's make the ring non-continuous. Let's make it use activated. The cost becomes 2 (lvl of spell) * 3 (lvl of caster) * 1,800 (multiplier for use activated magic items) = 10,800 gp. Now, I can change myself into a troglodyte upon command for 30 minutes at a time (caster level * 10 minutes/caster level). However, I think that your next quote would rule this out too.

... Furthermore, you cannot use some continuous spell calculation if a different but functionally identical set of calculations would give a much greater price.
That's a good way to look at it. It's less open to interpretation. So I suppose a ring of polymorph or ring of shape change would be out of the question ;)
Esponer
02-11-06, 11:08 PM It's not a permanent transformation. If the ring is stolen or dispelled, you would lose the ability.

Sorry, by "permanent transformation" I had meant activated all the time. The official WoTC example is the infamous Ring of True Strike (continuous). It is functionally very similar to a +20 insight bonus, and so pricing it has to be based on that (with Rule 0 applied as necessary: their final advised price was 400,000gp).

That's a good way to look at it. It's less open to interpretation. So I suppose a ring of polymorph or ring of shape change would be out of the question ;)

:) Yay! I was worried that you would adopt the stance of "The RAW gives me formulae, so I can use them no matter what". I'm tired and might scream if I have to argue with any more people who refuse to use any common sense. Luckily, they're called item creation "guidelines" and WotC has already given official advice on how to handle situations like this, but still, I would rather not have had to argue it.

You know, that said, I have to admit: there is a continuous item of polymorph (actually metamorphosis). It's in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and its priced at 84,000. I'm not sure offhand if that price has been raised above what the item creation guidelines would give. It's one of the few things in the XPH that I think can really be abused...
Dragonteuthis
02-11-06, 11:10 PM Word of advice: do NOT introduce Crucians (from the Miniatures Handbook) into your campaign. Or if you do, alter their stats. The spellcasters LOVE that +8 natural armor.
Someone
02-12-06, 12:24 AM Just to pick nits, Troglodytes have the (reptilian) subtype. When the alter self spell says type, I would think it also means subtype. So this tactic might work for a kobold, but not for a human.
Ehlijen Iswa Tschingjo
02-12-06, 12:53 AM You also need to keep in mind the rolepalying penalties. What group of adventurers wants to stay near a badly smelling lizard thing all day? I know the spell doesn't grant you the stench special ability, but you still won't smell nice as a trogo. You'll replace the sweaty dwarven full plate fighter in the downwind party order position...
cfr1216
02-12-06, 01:02 AM I don't think sub types matter. The spell description indicates that only type matters. It gives the examples of humanoid and magical beast. If sub type mattered, you couldn’t become an elf or orc, because their sub types are elf and orc. The troglodyte is humanoid, and its subtype is reptilian.

... WotC has already given official advice on how to handle situations like this ...
Where can I see these official rulings?
sneak_Blast
02-12-06, 01:02 AM Umm... tell me I am not the only one that noticed this. The ring would cost:
2 (2nd lvl spell)*12 (need to be a 12th lvl caster for the "Forge Ring" feat)*2000.

That would be 48,000 gp. Not 18,000. Also, I do not see where the 1.5 multiplier to the cost would come into play.
cfr1216
02-12-06, 01:12 AM Umm... tell me I am not the only one that noticed this. The ring would cost:
2 (2nd lvl spell)*12 (need to be a 12th lvl caster for the "Forge Ring" feat)*2000.

I see other rings that are at 1st level caster, such as the feather fall ring. So I used that as an example.

... I do not see where the 1.5 multiplier to the cost would come into play.
It's in the footnote of table 7-33 on page 285. It is listed as #5 of the footnotes.
High Octane
02-12-06, 01:54 AM Ive seen this exploit before. It sucks. I dont allow troglodytes to be a viable option.
Esponer
02-12-06, 07:43 AM Where can I see these official rulings?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a

Umm... tell me I am not the only one that noticed this. The ring would cost:
2 (2nd lvl spell)*12 (need to be a 12th lvl caster for the "Forge Ring" feat)*2000.

That would be 48,000 gp. Not 18,000. Also, I do not see where the 1.5 multiplier to the cost would come into play.

You can set the caster level to anything between the minimum required to cast the spell, and the maximum you can manage, I believe. That said, doing it your way might be better for a world's economy.
tarkin
02-12-06, 11:37 AM One of the rules of magic item creation is that NOT all magic items are possible, despite the guidelines.

A ring of Alter Self always on seems blatantly abusive to me, and should not be allowed, at any price.

Similar objections apply to:

Anything of Healing every round
Anything of Charm Person every round
Anything of True Strike every round.
chitzk0i
02-12-06, 12:55 PM Ive seen this exploit before. It sucks. I dont allow troglodytes to be a viable option.

Do you allow lizardfolk? After all, they are humanoids with a +5 natural armor bonus.
Squaba
02-12-06, 06:09 PM According to the Spell you gain all natural armor, movement types, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (such as wings or extra limbs.) Extra Limbs will not allow you to make extra attacks but wings will allow you to fly. A ring or item that allows you to be permanently under the affect of such a spell seems a bit grossly abusive to me, but since it is a legit spell, and it can be legitimately made into an item like a ring more power to you. I personally wouldn’t allow an item like this into my game.

Oh, also such a ring would purely be for combat-mongers, I cant see someone like an Elven Ranger roaming around as a Trog all the time just for the armor boost.
kraegor
02-12-06, 06:19 PM Anything of Healing every round
Anything of Charm Person every round
Anything of True Strike every round.

No rings of regeneration? *cry*

An item to make this would just be like had of disguise, but instead of a 1st level spell it would be a second level spell.

Anytime that a player needs to make something "continuous" they are just being munchkins. Something that allows them to do it 5 times a day for 10 minutes each is usually plenty.
zlatko
02-13-06, 08:03 AM The ring would imho be legit. If the DM gives you any grief over it go out and buy a polimorph scrol. Its cheaper. And you can buy more if the situation calls for it.
Zherog
02-13-06, 10:55 AM The ring would imho be legit. If the DM gives you any grief over it go out and buy a polimorph scrol. Its cheaper. And you can buy more if the situation calls for it.

Sure. No problem. Of course, the scroll is single use and the ring is continuous. And the scroll requires that you have the spell on your class list and the ring doesn't. But other than that....

:rolleyes:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cfr1216 02-11-06, 09:10 PM	Can this be right? I could have a ring of Alter Self created. This would be a 'continuous' ring that would duplicate the Alter Self spell. The cost (according to the DMG) is - 2 (second level spell) * 3 (spell caster level need to cast the spell) * 2,000gp (cost for a continuous magic item) * 1.5 (multiplier because the Alter Self spell lasts 10 min/level) = 18,000 gp. Since most characters are huminoid, you could use the ring to change yourself into a troglodyte. A troglodyte has a natural armor of +6. From there, you could get an Amulet of Natural Armor (which stacks with the troglodyte’s natural armor), bracers of defense, ring of protection, .... By the time you're done, you could have a pretty high AC. Just about any class can benefit from this trick - mages, fighters, monks, .... Things can get even crazier if you can buy a ring of polymorph! Am I interpreting this correctly?
demonic_dante 02-11-06, 09:23 PM	I don't have my Ph in front of me right now but i believe alter self does not grant you any bonuses for what you look like it is purely visual. Otherwise a changeling could do the same thing.
Zherog 02-11-06, 09:27 PM	The first sentence in the spell description: You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. So, yes- if your DM allows this item in as you've described it, then you're correct. I wouldn't allow it, and I'm a fairly carefree DM.
Wyrd Bearer 02-11-06, 10:12 PM	+6 natural armour enhancement (NA bonus squared x 2000 = 72,000 gp) Multiattack feat (around 10,000 gp) +4 skill bonus (bonus squared x 100 = 1600 gp) Add these together, and take into account the extra non-related ability cost (72,000 + 15,000 [10,000 x 1.5] + 2,400 [1,600 x 1.5]). A continuous ring of +6 natural armour, +4 competence bonus to Hide and the multiattack feat would cost at least 89,400 gp; this is what you'd gain from the alter self spell. I'm not even sure how to price the 2 claw attacks and the bite attack. I suppose I could be generous and say a continual priced alter self spell could duplicate those effects, so that's an extra 27,000 gp (((2nd level spell x 3rd level caster x 2000)1.5 for continuous duration of a 10min/level spell)1.5 for being different abilities). So a grand total of 116,400 gp for a continuous ring of +6 natural armour, +4 competence bonus to hide, multiattack feat, 2 claw attacks (1d4 damage) and 1 bite attack (1d4 damage). Of course, this doesn't include the +10 to Disguise checks when trying to pass oneself as a troglodyte, but I don't feel like calculating that as I've made my point. Of course, I feel like I've forgotten something and this ring could quite be more expensive than what I've calculated here.
Esponer 02-11-06, 10:21 PM	Wyrd Bearer is essentially correct. If you wanted a ring which permanently transformed you into a troglodyte, you would price it using the guidelines to help you work out the specific benefits, and then alter it via the DM's judgement call. The formulae you are using are not fixed rules, they are guidelines and they demand that Rule 0 (DM's judgement) be used alongside them. Furthermore, you cannot use some continuous spell calculation if a different but functionally identical set of calculations would give a much greater price.
cfr1216 02-11-06, 10:54 PM	Wyrd Bearer is essentially correct. If you wanted a ring which permanently transformed you into a troglodyte, you would price it using the guidelines to help you work out the specific benefits, and then alter it via the DM's judgement call. It's not a permanent transformation. If the ring is stolen or dispelled, you would lose the ability. But ok, then let's make the ring non-continuous. Let's make it use activated. The cost becomes 2 (lvl of spell) * 3 (lvl of caster) * 1,800 (multiplier for use activated magic items) = 10,800 gp. Now, I can change myself into a troglodyte upon command for 30 minutes at a time (caster level * 10 minutes/caster level). However, I think that your next quote would rule this out too. ... Furthermore, you cannot use some continuous spell calculation if a different but functionally identical set of calculations would give a much greater price. That's a good way to look at it. It's less open to interpretation. So I suppose a ring of polymorph or ring of shape change would be out of the question ;)
Esponer 02-11-06, 11:08 PM	It's not a permanent transformation. If the ring is stolen or dispelled, you would lose the ability. Sorry, by "permanent transformation" I had meant activated all the time. The official WoTC example is the infamous Ring of True Strike (continuous). It is functionally very similar to a +20 insight bonus, and so pricing it has to be based on that (with Rule 0 applied as necessary: their final advised price was 400,000gp). That's a good way to look at it. It's less open to interpretation. So I suppose a ring of polymorph or ring of shape change would be out of the question ;) :) Yay! I was worried that you would adopt the stance of "The RAW gives me formulae, so I can use them no matter what". I'm tired and might scream if I have to argue with any more people who refuse to use any common sense. Luckily, they're called item creation "guidelines" and WotC has already given official advice on how to handle situations like this, but still, I would rather not have had to argue it. You know, that said, I have to admit: there is a continuous item of polymorph (actually metamorphosis). It's in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and its priced at 84,000. I'm not sure offhand if that price has been raised above what the item creation guidelines would give. It's one of the few things in the XPH that I think can really be abused...
Dragonteuthis 02-11-06, 11:10 PM	Word of advice: do NOT introduce Crucians (from the Miniatures Handbook) into your campaign. Or if you do, alter their stats. The spellcasters LOVE that +8 natural armor.
Someone 02-12-06, 12:24 AM	Just to pick nits, Troglodytes have the (reptilian) subtype. When the alter self spell says type, I would think it also means subtype. So this tactic might work for a kobold, but not for a human.
Ehlijen Iswa Tschingjo 02-12-06, 12:53 AM	You also need to keep in mind the rolepalying penalties. What group of adventurers wants to stay near a badly smelling lizard thing all day? I know the spell doesn't grant you the stench special ability, but you still won't smell nice as a trogo. You'll replace the sweaty dwarven full plate fighter in the downwind party order position...
cfr1216 02-12-06, 01:02 AM	I don't think sub types matter. The spell description indicates that only type matters. It gives the examples of humanoid and magical beast. If sub type mattered, you couldn’t become an elf or orc, because their sub types are elf and orc. The troglodyte is humanoid, and its subtype is reptilian. ... WotC has already given official advice on how to handle situations like this ... Where can I see these official rulings?
sneak_Blast 02-12-06, 01:02 AM	Umm... tell me I am not the only one that noticed this. The ring would cost: 2 (2nd lvl spell)12 (need to be a 12th lvl caster for the "Forge Ring" feat)2000. That would be 48,000 gp. Not 18,000. Also, I do not see where the 1.5 multiplier to the cost would come into play.
cfr1216 02-12-06, 01:12 AM	Umm... tell me I am not the only one that noticed this. The ring would cost: 2 (2nd lvl spell)12 (need to be a 12th lvl caster for the "Forge Ring" feat)2000. I see other rings that are at 1st level caster, such as the feather fall ring. So I used that as an example. ... I do not see where the 1.5 multiplier to the cost would come into play. It's in the footnote of table 7-33 on page 285. It is listed as #5 of the footnotes.
High Octane 02-12-06, 01:54 AM	Ive seen this exploit before. It sucks. I dont allow troglodytes to be a viable option.
Esponer 02-12-06, 07:43 AM	Where can I see these official rulings? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a Umm... tell me I am not the only one that noticed this. The ring would cost: 2 (2nd lvl spell)12 (need to be a 12th lvl caster for the "Forge Ring" feat)2000. That would be 48,000 gp. Not 18,000. Also, I do not see where the 1.5 multiplier to the cost would come into play. You can set the caster level to anything between the minimum required to cast the spell, and the maximum you can manage, I believe. That said, doing it your way might be better for a world's economy.
tarkin 02-12-06, 11:37 AM	One of the rules of magic item creation is that NOT all magic items are possible, despite the guidelines. A ring of Alter Self always on seems blatantly abusive to me, and should not be allowed, at any price. Similar objections apply to: Anything of Healing every round Anything of Charm Person every round Anything of True Strike every round.
chitzk0i 02-12-06, 12:55 PM	Ive seen this exploit before. It sucks. I dont allow troglodytes to be a viable option. Do you allow lizardfolk? After all, they are humanoids with a +5 natural armor bonus.
Squaba 02-12-06, 06:09 PM	According to the Spell you gain all natural armor, movement types, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (such as wings or extra limbs.) Extra Limbs will not allow you to make extra attacks but wings will allow you to fly. A ring or item that allows you to be permanently under the affect of such a spell seems a bit grossly abusive to me, but since it is a legit spell, and it can be legitimately made into an item like a ring more power to you. I personally wouldn’t allow an item like this into my game. Oh, also such a ring would purely be for combat-mongers, I cant see someone like an Elven Ranger roaming around as a Trog all the time just for the armor boost.
kraegor 02-12-06, 06:19 PM	Anything of Healing every round Anything of Charm Person every round Anything of True Strike every round. No rings of regeneration? cry An item to make this would just be like had of disguise, but instead of a 1st level spell it would be a second level spell. Anytime that a player needs to make something "continuous" they are just being munchkins. Something that allows them to do it 5 times a day for 10 minutes each is usually plenty.
zlatko 02-13-06, 08:03 AM	The ring would imho be legit. If the DM gives you any grief over it go out and buy a polimorph scrol. Its cheaper. And you can buy more if the situation calls for it.
Zherog 02-13-06, 10:55 AM	The ring would imho be legit. If the DM gives you any grief over it go out and buy a polimorph scrol. Its cheaper. And you can buy more if the situation calls for it. Sure. No problem. Of course, the scroll is single use and the ring is continuous. And the scroll requires that you have the spell on your class list and the ring doesn't. But other than that.... :rolleyes: